I don't know if I'm misreading the titan's breaker ikon or what, but let's say you have Dragon Stance that gives you a d10 bludogening unarmed attack, then use the ikon's trascendence. If you are 20th level with the new mythic runes, you'll be dealing 8d10+53 [7 (Str) + 40 (Immanence) + 6 (Weapon Specialization)]?
I'm saying this because the trascendence explicitly says it increases the ikon's immanence, though I'm probably inclined to believe the intention is that you instead get a bonus to damage (so you still add 2 additional spirit damage per weapon damage die + 4/6/8).
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I'm not convinced the ikons that require a specific damage type work for an unarmed stance that deals that kind of damage, without a normal unarmed attack that deals that sort of damage. Like just because you can enter wolf stance doesn't mean you can take a piercing ikon if you just have normal human hands.
I don't know if I'm misreading the titan's breaker ikon or what, but let's say you have Dragon Stance that gives you a d10 bludogening unarmed attack, then use the ikon's trascendence. If you are 20th level with the new mythic runes, you'll be dealing 8d10+53 [7 (Str) + 40 (Immanence) + 6 (Weapon Specialization)]?
I'm saying this because the trascendence explicitly says it increases the ikon's immanence, though I'm probably inclined to believe the intention is that you instead get a bonus to damage (so you still add 2 additional spirit damage per weapon damage die + 4/6/8).
As PossibleCabbage says, it's actually super unclear on whether an unarmed strike you get through a stance can even be an Ikon. Despite the Ikons allowing "unarmed attack", the rules always talk about Ikons as being items (except for Body Ikons).
As for Titan's Breaker, I think it's supposed to replace the Immanence effect. Your 20th level guy deals 5d10+10 (2 per damage die) normally, and 8d10+8 when you use Trascendence (plus whatever other damage you add like Strength, etc). Making it 8 per die would be absolutely bonkers.
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Also none of the thrown weapons will ever beat a Bow because they don't have Deadly d10.
Chakram Barbarian with Raging Thrower and Dual Weapon Thrower largely outdamages most bow builds (but Starlit Span). From what is said, with this ikon, it should beat a Greatsword Barbarian in damage...
Immanence The titan’s breaker deals 2 additional spirit damage
per weapon damage die to creatures it Strikes. Constructs
and objects are not immune to this spirit damage, and this
spirit damage automatically bypasses an amount of their
Hardness equal to your level.
Transcendence—Fracture Mountains [two-actions] (spirit,
transcendence) Your spirit is so dense it takes on tangible
force. Make a melee Strike with the titan’s breaker. This
counts as two attacks when calculating your multiple
attack penalty. If this Strike hits, your additional spirit
damage from the ikon’s immanence increases to 4 plus an
extra die of weapon damage. If you’re at least 10th level,
it’s increased to 6 spirit damage and two extra dice, and if
you’re at least 18th level, it’s increased to 8 spirit damage
and three extra dice.
I do believe from how it is worded that the addition spirit damage per weapon damage die in increased to 4 from 2 at level 1 because that be weird if it only gave you a flat 2 damage because it states as above as Ikon's Immanene increased to 4 which is clearly now 4 per weapon die because the Immanence states 2 per weapon die and as such you are gaining at level 10, 6 per weapon die and at level 18 it's now jumps to from 2 to 8, so yeah Titan Breaker is powerful is you spark Transcendence.
Maybe I am misreading it but I take the line here to mean it alters the immanence effect. "your additional spirit damage from the ikon’s immanence increases to 4 plus an extra die of weapon damage" and if that doesn't change the immenance's effect then I am confused. "Immanence The titan’s breaker deals 2 additional spirit damage per weapon damage die to creatures it Strikes." Does this not change the Spirit damage from 2 to 4 per weapon damage die?
This is based after the Shadow Sheath which states it's Transcendence effect is you make an attack against an off-guard enemy, which the Immanence changes from 2 spirit damage per weapon damage die to 3 spirit damage per weapon damage die if the target is off-guard.
Oh, I see what you mean, you trade out the increase for max bonus damage and additional dice. Interesting effect.
Notice that Shadow Sheath repeats "per die" in both instances while Titan Breaker doesn't.
This has happened before. The old Psychic increased a cantrip's damage from 1d4+mod to 1d10 and initially some people assumed that the mod stayed )i.e. 1d4+mod to 1d10+mod), but Paizo later insisted it did not (so 1d4+mod to 1d10 flat).
That's likely why Titan Breaker has explicit scaling, because it's no longer per die.
I'm not convinced the ikons that require a specific damage type work for an unarmed stance that deals that kind of damage, without a normal unarmed attack that deals that sort of damage. Like just because you can enter wolf stance doesn't mean you can take a piercing ikon if you just have normal human hands.
IDK. I sort of get where you're coming from but it seems somewhat needlessly antagonistic and annoying of a ruling to block an exemplar from taking an ikon unless they contrive a way to get another unarmed attack they're never going to use.
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For anyone who wants a more balanced version, requiring one action to move the spark into the ikon for one round works out surprisingly well at a glance.
Shadow Sheath still lets you draw weapons without a spark, but you aren't getting bonus ranged damage without spending an action.
No more getting +8 damage at high levels for free, and weapon transcend effects like "Barbarian healing half their damage off Barrow's Edge" always require being set up the same round, instead of starting combat with them active and using a third action to reset.
An action compressor like Horn of Plenty is neutral if you do it once, but you can drink twice with three actions and only one free hand, and the ability to spend two actions to drink something for someone within 60ft. is still really good.
Victor's Wreath becomes a worse Courageous Anthem available at second level instead of eighth, but also comes with the ability to have allies save against an ongoing condition for two actions.
There's nothing that says per die anywhere in the Transcendence.
Basically it changes from 2/die to flat+die.
I'm inclined to think it would rather be 2 per weapon damage die + flat bonus + other modifiers rather than just flat + other modifiers because otherwise the flat bonus is going to almost always going to be lower than the bonus you already got from the 2/weapon damage die. It also explicitly says it increases the additional damage from the immanence, while this would actually reduce it.
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I'm inclined to think it would rather be 2 per weapon damage die + flat bonus + other modifiers rather than just flat + other modifiers because otherwise the flat bonus is going to almost always going to be lower than the bonus you already got from the 2/weapon damage die. It also explicitly says it increases the additional damage from the immanence, while this would actually reduce it.There's nothing that says per die anywhere in the Transcendence.
Basically it changes from 2/die to flat+die.
It's because it's not replacing +2/die with +4/+6/+8, it's replacing it with 1d+4, 2d+6 and 3d+8
Lets say you're using a Meteor Hammer.
At lvl 1, you go from +2 to d8+4
At lvl 4, you go from +4 to d8+4
At level 10, you go from +4 to 2d8+6
At level 12, you go from +6 to 2d8+6
At level 18, you go from +6 to 3d8+8
At level 19, you go from +8 to 3d8+8
At level 20, if you get a mythic rune, you go from +10 to 3d8+8.
It's only at 20th level that the flat bonus is less than what you're getting from weapon damage die, and even then I'm sure you can see 3d8+8 is always going to be more than +10.
I NEED a reply on this from paizo.
This is making me very uncomfortable with the future purchases of their product of this is how they are going to treat it's balance.
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Total Immanance Removal! It's the only way.
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Okay guys let us think about this, Exemplar Dedication is powerful but if you nerf it and remove the immenance effect, I think we need to also nerf Psychic and stop the Imaginary Weapon Magus cheese then. This is just the Martial Version of the Imaginary Magus Cheese which I always had problems with because it feels like an unintended combination but if an extra 2 damage per weapon die is scary with a maybe usuable transcended effect then is the 2 feat Giant Instinct Barbarian +6 Rage damage also bad or 2 feat investment Gravity Weapon? Is it literally the fact you don't need 2 feats for this archetype but instead reqiuire to recharge it with 1 action like Spellstrike?
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the 2 feat Giant Instinct Barbarian +6 Rage damage also bad
And one action to trigger it and -2 to AC and level 6. So very far from incredible.
2 feat investment Gravity Weapon
Only the first Strike each turn (even if it misses), 2 feats, level 4 and one action. Good but not imbalanced.
I forget Gravity Weapon is for the first strike only since the only time I have seen it was on a single-shot Ranger and Giant Instinct, yeah not great, good point.
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Okay guys let us think about this, Exemplar Dedication is powerful but if you nerf it and remove the immenance effect, I think we need to also nerf Psychic and stop the Imaginary Weapon Magus cheese then. This is just the Martial Version of the Imaginary Magus Cheese which I always had problems with because it feels like an unintended combination but if an extra 2 damage per weapon die is scary with a maybe usuable transcended effect then is the 2 feat Giant Instinct Barbarian +6 Rage damage also bad or 2 feat investment Gravity Weapon? Is it literally the fact you don't need 2 feats for this archetype but instead reqiuire to recharge it with 1 action like Spellstrike?I play a starlit span magus. You don't get imaginary weapon at level 2. And even then it still costs a resource (focus points). And it's widely considered to be one of the best tools in the game.
This is substantially better. At a lower level with easier access requirements.
Imaginary Weapon doesn't cost Focus Points unless you Amp it, which is optional. And without Amping it it's still great (hard to beat 2d8 + 1d8 per rank).
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Imaginary Weapon doesn't cost Focus Points unless you Amp it, which is optional. And without Amping it it's still great (hard to beat 2d8 + 1d8 per rank).Okay guys let us think about this, Exemplar Dedication is powerful but if you nerf it and remove the immenance effect, I think we need to also nerf Psychic and stop the Imaginary Weapon Magus cheese then. This is just the Martial Version of the Imaginary Magus Cheese which I always had problems with because it feels like an unintended combination but if an extra 2 damage per weapon die is scary with a maybe usuable transcended effect then is the 2 feat Giant Instinct Barbarian +6 Rage damage also bad or 2 feat investment Gravity Weapon? Is it literally the fact you don't need 2 feats for this archetype but instead reqiuire to recharge it with 1 action like Spellstrike?I play a starlit span magus. You don't get imaginary weapon at level 2. And even then it still costs a resource (focus points). And it's widely considered to be one of the best tools in the game.
This is substantially better. At a lower level with easier access requirements.
It's good, but Gouging Claw is 2d6 + 2 bleed +1d6/+1 bleed per rank which is equivalent. Nevermind that if the target has an elemental weakness then the cantrip matching that well likely exceed either of the physical options.
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It's good, but Gouging Claw is 2d6 + 2 bleed +1d6/+1 bleed per rank which is equivalent. Nevermind that if the target has an elemental weakness then the cantrip matching that well likely exceed either of the physical options.Imaginary Weapon doesn't cost Focus Points unless you Amp it, which is optional. And without Amping it it's still great (hard to beat 2d8 + 1d8 per rank).Okay guys let us think about this, Exemplar Dedication is powerful but if you nerf it and remove the immenance effect, I think we need to also nerf Psychic and stop the Imaginary Weapon Magus cheese then. This is just the Martial Version of the Imaginary Magus Cheese which I always had problems with because it feels like an unintended combination but if an extra 2 damage per weapon die is scary with a maybe usuable transcended effect then is the 2 feat Giant Instinct Barbarian +6 Rage damage also bad or 2 feat investment Gravity Weapon? Is it literally the fact you don't need 2 feats for this archetype but instead reqiuire to recharge it with 1 action like Spellstrike?I play a starlit span magus. You don't get imaginary weapon at level 2. And even then it still costs a resource (focus points). And it's widely considered to be one of the best tools in the game.
This is substantially better. At a lower level with easier access requirements.
It is equivalent on paper, but not in reality. For one, there's a lot of creatures immune to bleed damage (most undead and constructs, just to start). For two, persistent damage doesn't stack with itself, so if the enemy is already suffering from a source of bleed (even a previous gouging claw) then it does nothing. And lastly, the Bleed damage will not actually take place until the end of the enemies' next turn, so Gouging Claw might leave an enemy alive to punish you that Imaginary Weapon would not.
Gouging Claw is still good though, but I wouldn't rank it above Imaginary Weapon even before taking into account Amp. As you said though, other cantrips would be situationally more useful depending on weaknesses/resistances.
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A Magus will only spellstrike with a cantrip in last resort, unless its damage type is really worth it.
Every last Magus?
Not a single one will use Spellstrike with Cantrips and use their spell slots for buffs/crowd control/mobility/AoE?
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A Magus will only spellstrike with a cantrip in last resort, unless its damage type is really worth it.
I couldn't disagree more. I played like 4 magi and I pretty much only spellstrike with cantrips. You have very few spell slots so I prefer to use those for utility spells and buffs like true strike.
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Often as a Magus I see, Cantrip Spam (Gouging Claw) or Imaginary Weapon amp'd. Or I see them archetyping for more spells.
A Magus will only spellstrike with a cantrip in last resort, unless its damage type is really worth it.
Very few attack spells out damage an amped imaginary weapon. Disintegrate is the only one that comes to mind and it's not by much. Additionally, if you're a melee magus, IW works with spellswipe allowing you to get extra mileage from your focus points.
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Honestly most of my GMs do not care. Though like Squiggit said - this definitely poisons the well and makes it less likely they will in the future. I'd rather that the default for "it's Rare" is not "oh yeah that's broken of course you can't take it."It's just really strong. It stands out. You can say it's okay because it's Rare if you want, but that comes with a lot of implications that I do not think most of the people here would be comfortable with, and it needs to be acknowledged, I think.
I've had more time to think about it and I've come to agree with you. It is out of line.
You're also right, it's not really okay that its wildly out of line just because its rare, since something like Starlit Sentinel isn't like that but is also rare, and I don't want people reflexively banning rare things when they're actually just flavorful rather than busted.
It's not going to impact my games in the same way since rare stuff was always an "ask first" situation and this one will just be "hard no" unlike most rare options, but it would definitely be better if it was reined in.
While the exemplar archetype is busted, you can't even pick a focus spell on Animist archetype with a lvl 4/6 feat like every other caster archetype...
I still think it is just on par with being a Magus archetyping into Imaginary Weapon for an easy big bonk damage Spellstrike. Exemplar is front loaded as Psychic and I still don't know which caster wouldn't want Psychic Dedication just like I don't know which Martial wouldn't like Exemplar Dedication, that +1 Focus Point is already tempting not to mention that 1 free Psychic Cantrip. I think they both need to be looked at but the Transcendence effect is mostly a weak Spellstrike that you can spend an action to recharge.
The real question to ask when do most games end? Is possibly slapping on 2 damage (From most Weapon Ikons) per dia really game breaking? Like if you are a barbarian and your campaign goes to level 11, is +4 damage from an Titan's Breaker Ikon really that much? Maybe slapping this on a Flurry Ranger is strong but it turns a 1d6 weapon into a more stable 1d8.
So just a thought is a agile weapon with +2 flat damage overpowered when the highest agile damage die is d6? In theory with no damage boosts this would over 2 hits barely deal on average more damage. 1d12+10 vs 1d6+6, that is level 2 with the Giant barbarian not having an Weapon Ikon if you do the damage them becomes 1d12+12. So some of you might not want the -1 AC from Giant, fair. So let's do Dragon 1d12+10, vs 1d6+6, hmmm looks like the flat Exemplar boost makes the Ranger at level 2 deal slightly more between 2 hits. This on considering no gravity weapon and instead just swinging twice, if you added on Gravity weapon then it be +4 higher then the Barbarian on average
IF we bump this up to level 7, 2d12+21+1d6 for giant while the Flurry Ranger would have 2d6+11+1d6. As you see it is nearly the same output the Flurry ranger barely passes the Giant Instinct Barbarian but even if you were a Dragon instinct, you loose the race by 3-7 (Depending if Gravity weapon was cast or 1-5 if you're a giant instinct) points of damage. Are you really going to notice 3-7 on average damage loss when the Flurry Ranger needs 2 attacks to on average to slightly outmatch you?
This is only if we compare Barbarian vs Flurry Ranger.
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Exemplar MC isn't even fixed if you removed all the weapon ikons, let alone nerfed them. The shield, victor's wreath, new animal skin, revised skin as hard as iron, revised gaze as sharp as steel, and for certain builds the new horn of plenty are all plenty strong and much much better than other 2nd level feat options.
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Exemplar MC isn't even fixed if you removed all the weapon ikons, let alone nerfed them. The shield, victor's wreath, new animal skin, revised skin as hard as iron, revised gaze as sharp as steel, and for certain builds the new horn of plenty are all plenty strong and much much better than other 2nd level feat options.
Victor's Wreath as a level 2 option is literally better than Eternal Blessing, which is a level 16 Cleric feat. Cleric feats aren't exactly top shelf, but come on.
The damage one gets a lot of focus here and it deserves it, but yeah: it's not the only problem with this archetype.
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The real question to ask when do most games end? Is possibly slapping on 2 damage (From most Weapon Ikons) per dia really game breaking? Like if you are a barbarian and your campaign goes to level 11, is +4 damage from an Titan's Breaker Ikon really that much? Maybe slapping this on a Flurry Ranger is strong but it turns a 1d6 weapon into a more stable 1d8.
You don't need an agile weapon to use this, you just take -2 on the second attack. A Barbarian with a greatsword is normally taking -5 on their second attack. So here we have a level 4 Barbarian getting +4 damage and substantially better MAP for their second attack. That is not a bit of damage: that's +4 damage AND an effective +3 on your second attack, which is a massive buff. All for a single level 2 feat.
If this was a class feat, literally every member of the class would take it. It's better than Dangerous Sorcery was and that was effectively an auto-pick (to the point that it was made a class feature).
So yeah, this is miles out of line for a single feat.
While the exemplar archetype is busted, you can't even pick a focus spell on Animist archetype with a lvl 4/6 feat like every other caster archetype...
I think the whole reason why that works like that is because of embodiment of battle, which funnily enough would be solved if embodiment of battle didn't work like it does. I remember suggesting back in the playtest the more smooth "You use your spell attack proficiency for simple and martial weapon proficiency, up to being master in simple and martial weapons. If your proficiency with spell attacks and simple and martial weapons is the same, you receive a +1 bonus to attacks made with these weapons instead". The end result is effectively the same but it doesn't allow martials to poach it for profit, in the case they would hyphotetically gain access to it.
Funnily enough I don't think most martials would want to take EoB even if they could in its current state only because of it requiring sustain. Martials have a very defined set of actions that they likely want to do every turn and having to sustain a spell would go against that.
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I'm not seeing how this is justifiable. If the Exemplar Archetype is allowed to be overpowered because it's rare, and Exemplar itself isn't, how are you compensating Exemplar?
How are you okay as a GM to chip away at one of the main things PF2 is great for (encounter balance)?
It should be Rare because it's grabbing a bit of godhood, narratively that's not an everyday thing. It shouldn't be rare because it will make playing the game as a GM demonstrably more difficult.
Give the bonus a cost, I don't really care how, just bring it in-line.
Here are a few ideas:
You spend a HP to gain the effect as the deific energy burns through you.
You can gain the effects 1/round or 1/combat to start, opening up more at higher levels.
While you have the effect you gain vulnerability to all damage.
Pay actions 1/x rounds to keep it active.
Become drained (like bloodrager) to use it more than x times per combat.