Senior Developer
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Atten-shun, soldiers!
Please use this thread for mechanical or thematic feedback on the guardian.
Please avoid having discussions on feedback given by posters in this thread and save that for other threads or venues. This is a place to collect opinions for easy review, not to debate their merit.
Thank you for participating in the Battlecry! playtest!
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Still doing my initial read of the playtest, but half to say that the Guardian is everything I could ask for in a martial tank! Champion is alright, but doesn't hold a candle to this Guardian!
Hampering Sweeps - Really, as a lvl 2 feat! I can think of SOOOOO many ways that this can be the beginning of the end for so many fights. As a GM I'd call this OP and really have redesign combats for it. As a player, this would make my entire build. Probably should have a save to it though.
Flying Tackle - very thematic and can't wait to use it, no notes!
Shielded Attrition - a way for a martial to deny reactions is just sweet. If it had a saving throw even, I'd be happy, but don't think it needs one.
Unfortunately, I don't have time to read further beyond skimming, but absolutely love what I'm seeing so far.
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It's so, so nice to have a Defender's Mark back.
Given that taunt debuffs your own AC and turns you into the juicy target that enemies want I feel like the actual best way to use Ferocious Vengeance is to play with a bow and make hitting you difficult. Pair it with a polearm fighter so they have to get around Reactive Strike to react to the taunt.
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I really appreciated the raise a 2 handed weapon like a shield feat. Shielded is the optimal way to make a guardian, but I was able to see plenty of feats for making a big bruiser with nothing shield related. That had me much more excited for the class than I was previously. It's a beefy, cornfed juggernaut and I approve! My only worry is it's made to aggro hits and crits so I'm not sure if the resistance it gets is enough. Needs testing I suppose, but my gut reaction was wanting more health or more resistance (disregarding tough cookie, but OMG I'll take that feat every time)
The Reaction Time feature seems a little odd. I assume that the intention is to give 1 free extra Reaction to use each combat (possibly tuned down from 1 extra per round), but per the rules in Player Core, you lose unused Reactions at the start of your turn so as written this ability can't be used. It probably needs a stipulation that you don't lose the bonus Reaction round-to-round until used.
I would say the intention is actually to give you a reaction before you otherwise would be able to. Normally in combat you only get your reaction on your turn, meaning the first round of combat you wouldn't have one until your turn comes up, but the guardian starts with a reaction always that allows them to defend someone round one.
It feels a bit odd to gain a class feature that only gets worse as your initiative gets better, but I guess you're right that having it as a failsafe for enemy alpha strikes makes sense. Maybe we could get a callout in the finalized text to remind players that reactions expire at the start of their turn so they don't mistakenly think they can "bank" the reaction.
Given that taunt debuffs your own AC and turns you into the juicy target that enemies want I feel like the actual best way to use Ferocious Vengeance is to play with a bow and make hitting you difficult. Pair it with a polearm fighter so they have to get around Reactive Strike to react to the taunt.As a note, Taunt doesn't debuff your AC, it boosts your enemy's to hit/DC. Just pointing that out because I got tripped up by it, and I think making Taunt grant a bonus rather than giving you a penalty makes it more dangerous than might seem apparent at first. If it was a penalty it wouldn't stack with off-guard, for example.
I need to reserve judgment until I've read more and seen some other takes, but as of now the Taunt mechanic has me a bit worried. A +2 is a lot, and it also working with DCs makes it scarier.
Combined with some of their Shield Feats and getting a Parry Trait added to all two-handed weapons but with a +2, they can mostly mitigate this if you spend your third-action to Raise a Shield or use the Parry trait, which I think is the intended idea.
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Just reading through it, I have some issues:
First, delayed Weapon Proficiency. I understand this is a defensive class, but having Alchemist progression until level 17 isn't going to feel all that good in actual play, at least going by my experience with Alchemists.
Second, Intercept Strike being adjacent only until lvl 6, and even then only going up to 10 feet of leeway. That is extremely restrictive, especially considering it doesn't even protect from energy damage until lvl 4 (and that requires a feat), and even the level 6 feat only applies to one ally at a time.
Third, Feat distribution. A lot of the Guardian's feats are very good, but also low level, which makes them available through multiclassing. Larger than Life, Shoulder Check, Hampering Sweeps*, Raise Haft** are all good feats, but of more use on something like a Fighter than the Guardian.
Fourth, Taunt is a good ability, but Ferocious Vengeance needs some rewording. Per RAW, it...doesn't seem to work properly?
Lets say I Taunt creature A, they Suceed at their Save, I do the rest of my turn, it ends. During it's turn, creature A attacks my buddy. Round continues, new round comes around, it's my turn again. Creature A is now no longer affected by my Taunt. Do I still get the bonus damage? Do I need to Taunt creature A again, and then I get bonus damage? Is the bonus intended to apply mostly to Reaction attacks the guardian might make?
On a personal note I understand the thematic differences between Guardian and Champion, but it does seem like Guardian has a lot of overlap with it.
Alas, I don't have time to actually playtest either of the classes but I look forward to see how this goes.
* This one is so good I can see a lot of martials getting it. One action to prevent enemies from leaving your reach with Move actions, with no check required and no save, at lvl 2, is basically THE best battlefield control you can have, especially with a polearm. It is also why I think it will not survive this playtest unscathed.
** This one is more from my group, but already everyone is making jokes regarding certain anatomical parts. Maybe change the name to Two-Handed Defense? I don't mind either way, it just makes us giggle.
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I'm not sure the delayed proficiency for offense is entirely required. I don't think the defense looks that good.
I mean it basically can't be required. It has normal martial proficiency for huge chunks of the game.
Expert comes at 5 for most martials and 7 for the Guardian.
Master comes at 13 for most martials and 17 for the Guardian.
So that's levels 5, 6, 13, 14, 15, and 16 that it's behind. Not even a third of your career if you go the full 20. If you're playing a half campaign like AV, it's only 2 levels.
... So what in the world about the Guardian is specifically overpowered enough that they need Caster weapon proficiency, but only at those six specific levels? What makes the Guardian too strong at exactly level 5 and 6 but balanced again at level 7?
I can't see a logic here.
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I'm not sure the delayed proficiency for offense is entirely required. I don't think the defense looks that good.I mean it basically can't be required. It has normal martial proficiency for huge chunks of the game.
Expert comes at 5 for most martials and 7 for the Guardian.
Master comes at 13 for most martials and 17 for the Guardian.
So that's levels 5, 6, 13, 14, 15, and 16 that it's behind. Not even a third of your career if you go the full 20. If you're playing a half campaign like AV, it's only 2 levels.
... So what in the world about the Guardian is specifically overpowered enough that they need Caster weapon proficiency, but only at those six specific levels? What makes the Guardian too strong at exactly level 5 and 6 but balanced again at level 7?
I can't see a logic here.
It is using the same logic as they used for Magus and Summoner as this is the same progression for their spellcasting proficiencies. I think this is a power budget adjustment for the frontloaded features they get such as the armor specialization at lvl 1, Taunt, Intercept Strike, threat technique, and overall durability.
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Taunt really needs to help against AoEs
If your standing next to an ally (very likely with your reaction)
You spend an action Taunt, which to give the enemy +2 to AoEs.
That's it. You spend an action to become easier to AoE.
Also. Thet should get some way to help with flanking while standing next to someone. The Champion can flank and still be within range.
I'm not sure the delayed proficiency for offense is entirely required. I don't think the defense looks that good.I mean it basically can't be required. It has normal martial proficiency for huge chunks of the game.
Expert comes at 5 for most martials and 7 for the Guardian.
Master comes at 13 for most martials and 17 for the Guardian.
So that's levels 5, 6, 13, 14, 15, and 16 that it's behind. Not even a third of your career if you go the full 20. If you're playing a half campaign like AV, it's only 2 levels.
... So what in the world about the Guardian is specifically overpowered enough that they need Caster weapon proficiency, but only at those six specific levels? What makes the Guardian too strong at exactly level 5 and 6 but balanced again at level 7?
I can't see a logic here.
Checks the Barbarian Weapon Specialization comes on for Martials at 7, whereas Guardians don't get their own until 11, so it keeps you a step behind, when Barbarian gets Master at 13, you'll have just gotten weapon spec at 11, and Greater Armor Spec on the same level.
Quick Thoughts
Just like commander, really digging this class so far. I honestly don't have a ton of feedback, but here's what I found.
1) Reaction Time: The reaction this feature grants, is the intent that the guardian can use Intercept and the like the moment an enemy attacks, even when surprised?
2) Energetic Specialization: This is a STAGGERINGLY underwhelming feat to me. At max value you're looking at 5 Resistance to a single energy type. Even if you added the ability for the Greater Armor Specialization to apply, that's 8 Resistance. Maybe I'm not seeing the proper value of it here, but I'd personally recommend adding a note that Greater Armor Specialization applies to this at a minimum.
... Honestly that's it. Everything else in this class seems really spot on and I'm looking forward to testing it out more directly. It really delivers on the class fantasy and it has a lot of cool tools to facilitate that.
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Since the class gives taunted enemies a +2 to hit you and the class itself has delayed martial proficiency, would it really be outrageous for the class to start with expert proficiency in armor? I kinda feel this is very minimum it needs.
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I don't understand why they don't have expert training in armor at level 1, even if limited in some way.
Probably because you get armor specialization instead.
Which Champion gets at 7.
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The first thing that stands out to me is that there's tension between "you want to be adjacent to your allies to protect them" and "you are most likely the slowest person in the party since you are incentivized to wear heavy armor".
At 4th level you get intercept foe to stride as a reaction if that lets you catch up, but I'm not sure if that's enough and/or that feat feels mandatory.
It would also be nice to carve out an affirmative reason to use medium armor besides "you have +5 feet of movement speed".
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Taunt seems to be in a strange place, and is surprisingly lacking in variety of Feat/Feature interaction.
It is a full action tax, can be saved against, and I'd like to +1 the earlier mentioned AoE problem. Much of the class revolves around being adjacent to your allies, meaning that Taunt will often only be a negative. As many monster type foes have AoE attacks, I anticipate that is going to be an issue decently often. While it is wise to put the action compression into combining both Taunt and Raise into one action, I still think many Defenders will end up ignoring Taunt a significant amount of the time, especially if they do not take Feats to enhance it. Also, the manner in which Shielding Taunt is incompatible with Group Taunt basically dooms one of those two Feats to be ignored even by Defenders that like to use Taunt.
Edit: To expand on this a bit more. An issue is that Taunt affects the chance to hit, while Intercept only happens when a hit would occur. While minor-ish, that is an example of anti-synergy. If your Taunt causes a whiff, you may waste your class' power to reduce and redirect damage. Meanwhile, you cannot Intercept a strike that's targeting you. This really hurts the value proposition of spending an action to Taunt (especially if you have another defensive action, like Raise). I think Taunt may be used mostly as a later-turn action as fights drag on. In the circumstances where the Guardian is still sitting at nearly full HP while allies are hurting.
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Stomp Ground is a weird one. AoE trip for 2A, no flourish, cooldown, nor other catch. It is only 5ft, but is not friend-safe. Powerful, but trying to use it will be jank as hell. Honestly gives Intercept Foe even more utility by letting the Guardian get out of position to stomp, then Reaction their way back adjacent to allies.
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Honestly, Intercept Foe kinda breaks the entire class concept of needing to position oneself to protect their allies. It perfectly fills in the gap of what to do when you cannot Intercept Strike, and maybe a bit too well. Foe attacking you? Block. Adjacent ally? Intercept Strike. Another ally? Intercept Foe.
It just gives the Guardian a full Stride range of "mindless flowchart" in a way that kinda removes the incentive to make positioning meaningful. And Improved Intercept Foe really just takes that to the extreme with a dedicated extra Reaction just for that purpose. Why bother wasting an action to Stride during your turn?
TBH, pf2e kinda has a general problem with positioning/distance not being a real battlefield concern. In my experience, it's rare to have a backline more that 1 Stride away from the thick of it. And Feats like this only contribute to this "melee soup" problem. I honestly *liked* the narrow halls of the Abomination Vaults precisely because those were the only times positioning was relevant. Though even then, there were a surprising number of enemies with the ability to bypass body-blocking via flight or other abilities, meaning only the players were disadvantaged.
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I am a bit surprised there are only 2 stance Feats, and 0 upgrades for them. Both are very potent on their own though.
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Never! is yet another example of a Paizo Flavor^tm Feat that looks super thematic, and while neat to read, will never ever be taken in a serious game. I don't know why these are so common to see in this gamesystem. Striking your allies against your will is just far too absurdly rare an occurrence to be worth *any* Class Feat, let alone a L16 slot. Man, it sounds harsh, but the Feat is a waste of page space, and should be deleted or replaced with something wholly different.
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Overall, the Guardian looks quite playable and fun.
I am rather mixed on some of the design choices. The Features and core gameplan of the class is very one-dimensional, which is not automatically a bad thing. I'd argue that with the Champion being there as an alternative, Guardian being the simpler, more flow-charty choice is totally fine.
However, there are a whole lot of "must take" Feats. Some of these are contextual to certain build choices (If the Guardian uses a shield then ___ is a must-take), but others seem outright class universal.
I think Quick Intercept's extra specified Reaction should honestly be integrated into the class Features, even if some other knob ought to be tuned down to compensate. The Guardian is already going to have trouble with not having enough Reactions, and I'm surprised there's no equivalent of Rogue's Feat that enables them to spend an Action to gain an extra Reaction.
Considering the feature Reaction Time is... rather unremarkable, that could be replaced with with the text of Quick Intercept that includes an extra line to give that reaction as soon as initiative is rolled.
Maybe remove the save from Taunt?
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Alright, let’s get starting on my regular “First Impressions” post.
A martial that’s not an in Perception. Huh.
Expert in Will is…weird. I know it’s because non-full-casters are expert in two saves and the big guy in bulky full plate ain’t gonna dodge well, but expert in Will just feels…weird, I dunno.
Oh. A champion’s reaction that redirects damage to you and protects you. Interesting. But it says you get resistance thanks to your armor, but has no penalty for NOT wearing armor.
Grammar thing in Taunt: “choose a creature within 30 feet, who must attempts…”
Ohohoho! So they gave Guardian an action to incentivize enemies to attack THEM! I love it! The worst part of having a tank is when enemies just choose to, y’know, not target the tank.
Okay, maybe word Threat Technique differently so it could possibly have more choices in the future, basically making that the guardian’s “subclass.”
For Mitigate Damage, maybe specify that the resistance can’t reduce the damage below what it would do on a non-crit.
YOU GET DIEHARD FOR FREE?! AND you can avoid becoming dying 3+ once per day?!
Interesting. They get weapon proficiency boosts 2 levels later than other martials, but get armor proficiency boosts two levels EARLIER than the champion or monk (the only other classes that get to legendary in AC).
Huh. You ALWAYS have a reaction before the start of your first turn instead of having one at GM’s discretion. Interesting.
DOUBLE THE VALUE OF YOUR ARMOR POTENCY’S RUNE WHEN DETERMINING ARMOR SPECIALIZATION?!?!
Excuse me, their level 19 class feature gives them a special bulwark ability that uses the armor’s ITEM BONUS TO AC instead of Dex! AND a success turns to a crit success?!
Shoulder Check, haha! That said, you CAN always make a “fist” Strike by kicking, etc. Also, it should be reworded to be usable with any free-hand weapon instead of just gauntlet or spiked gauntlet.
Does the lessened broken penalties from Armor Break apply WHENEVER it’s broken, or only when it’s broken by that activity.
You can FORCE enemies to stay in your reach?!?! That feels…a bit much. I could see a guardian moving up to a caster then using this to force them to stay there. I feel like there should be, like, a save or SOMETHING. It otherwise feels like it’s the must-take feat. Especially since it can force a caster to stay within reach of a creature with Reactive Strike. Those two feats feel like they really shut down enemy casters completely. Especially a fighter with the guardian archetype that takes Disruptive Stance. Meaning that shutting down a caster is only a 3-feat investment. I could 100% see a munchkin doing that.
Shielded Taunt. Nice action-saver.
Huh. You can get Avert Gaze while Raising your Shield.
OH! A shielded stride that makes your ALLIES’ movements not trigger reactions!
You can broaden your armor specialization resistance? Interesting.
Shields basically become unusable when they become broken, so Shield Salvation feels like a useless feat, since I have literally NEVER seen a shield become destroyed. I have never seen a massive-enough attack that would both get over a shield’s Hardness AND take it from above-BT to destroyed.
You can ignore clumsy’s penalty to AC?!
Once per day get temp HP equal to HALF YOUR MAX?!?!
For Clang!, are they also off-guard after you Strike them, or only after you Stride towards them?
You can get fortification as a class feat?!?!?!?
Really impressed with the guardian. My only concern is that Hampering Sweeps is wayyy too overpowered for a no-save, no-check “you’re basically immobilized.” Especially on a level 2 feat.
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I like a lot about the guardian but a little confused on how to play one. Being in the thick of melee seems like you aren't getting much out of the class with base class features - you can't intercept strike allies you're flanking with and if you taunt you're just as squishy (or squishier) as your melee buddies. You don't hit as hard as your allies, you don't have any damage boosters and your hit chance will be lower some levels.
I think the best way to play a guardian is with a ranged weapon on the backline, taunting far away enemies who would have to waste actions to get to you and you're next to squishy allies if they're in danger?
I like a lot about the guardian but a little confused on how to play one. Being in the thick of melee seems like you aren't getting much out of the class with base class features - you can't intercept strike allies you're flanking with and if you taunt you're just as squishy (or squishier) as your melee buddies. You don't hit as hard as your allies, you don't have any damage boosters and your hit chance will be lower some levels.
I think the best way to play a guardian is with a ranged weapon on the backline, taunting far away enemies who would have to waste actions to get to you and you're next to squishy allies if they're in danger?
Taunting + DR + Armor Specialization + Raise a Shield/Parry Trait + Diehard + Greater Armor Specialization + Feats implies to me you are meant to be up there taking hits, and either reducing what damage you are actually taking or being incredibly tough to kill.
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I think Intercept should let you use your AC and Armor Specialization.
Mainly, "you the target of the attack". Not just taking the damage.
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Hmm, while it seems for incentivization for bigger armor, it's weird to see the Guardian to have no expert+ proficiency for unarmored and light armor. And half-expected a 12 HP, but alas.
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Taunting + DR + Armor Specialization + Raise a Shield/Parry Trait + Diehard + Greater Armor Specialization + Feats implies to me you are meant to be up there taking hits, and either reducing what damage you are actually taking or being incredibly tough to kill.I like a lot about the guardian but a little confused on how to play one. Being in the thick of melee seems like you aren't getting much out of the class with base class features - you can't intercept strike allies you're flanking with and if you taunt you're just as squishy (or squishier) as your melee buddies. You don't hit as hard as your allies, you don't have any damage boosters and your hit chance will be lower some levels.
I think the best way to play a guardian is with a ranged weapon on the backline, taunting far away enemies who would have to waste actions to get to you and you're next to squishy allies if they're in danger?
All those things that imply you're supposed to be up there taking hits don't really synergize in my eyes, especially at low level. The tools you have to be 'incredibly tough' are your shield (anyone can get), regular martial HP, armor spec (really small amount of resistance against a single physical damage type). And if you taunt your AC is going to be as low as a caster the first 4 levels.
Maybe it's that I recently played an AP with a champion, but as hard as enemies hit in this game, a guardian who taunts feels like it's going to go down fast. The champion in my game managed to hold their own against some enemies but with 2 less AC I don't think they would've been able to. They also had lay on hands and such. Staying away from the action and taunting makes a lot more sense to me.
I definitely could be wrong and it's what playtesting is for, but at first glance I am very skeptical.
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Feat idea:
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls".
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As for my first impressions:
> Ho boy. The delayed proggression is going to be a contentious topic, isn't it? The first delay I think it is alright and fair. Level 7 offense for level 5 defense is acceptable. What is not acceptable is the master proficiency for weapons. 17 is way too late, it should be 15 at most, make legendary armor and master weapons the same feature and call it a day.
> The bulk looks also a bit questionable. You are +2 AC ahead on levels 5 to 11, and 13 to 14 and 19 to 20, +4 ahead on levels 15 to 18 and even levels 1 to 4, but your core feature to attract enemy attention gives enemies a +2 to hit you, making it in reality a -2 from levels 1 to 4 and even most of your career against the enemy you need to keep in check the most (most of the time, the highest level one). It gets a nice damage reduction on crits, but it should probably also get a lower damage reduction for normal hits as well.
> Intercept strike needs to come with movement at some point. Actual movement. Combats get more mobile as you level up, being adjacent to an ally does not cut it by level 8 or 10. By level 20 it should scale at least to 20 or 30ft of movement to not be a dead feature in most combats. As it is it is better to just stick to intercept Foe until level 14 and then do Intercept Foe into Intercept Strike.
> Some feats need some work. Energetic Specialization is not it, for example, the resistances are laughable. If it gave all 5 resistances it would be decent, but as it is it is just impossible to justify. On the other Hand, Hampering Sweeps is just too good for a level 2 feat, I think.
> Perfect Protection should specify how it interacts with a Fortification rune.
Feat idea:
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls".
That... is a good idea but perhaps waaaay to potent.
To keep with the theme of "jumping into incoming damage"
Maybe a Reaction to add a fortune effect to incoming healing, letting you get the better of 2 rolls?
Though, if there was some cooldown or other condition, spending a Reaction to fully maximize one incoming Heal per fight does sound balanced.
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Feat idea:
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls".That... is a good idea but perhaps waaaay to potent.
To keep with the theme of "jumping into incoming damage"
Maybe a Reaction to add a fortune effect to incoming healing, letting you get the better of 2 rolls?
Though, if there was some cooldown or other condition, spending a Reaction to fully maximize one incoming Heal per fight does sound balanced.
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls. Once you use this feature you can't use it again for 10 minutes".
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls. Once you use this feature you can't use it again for 10 minutes".Feat idea:
"When you are healed, maximum any dice rolls".That... is a good idea but perhaps waaaay to potent.
To keep with the theme of "jumping into incoming damage"
Maybe a Reaction to add a fortune effect to incoming healing, letting you get the better of 2 rolls?
Though, if there was some cooldown or other condition, spending a Reaction to fully maximize one incoming Heal per fight does sound balanced.
As is, that will trigger on the first incoming heal with no option to opt-out.
Slap a "can" or "may" in there, and that'll do.
Though I do prefer a more active "jump into the heal juuust so" kind of flair, hence the Reaction suggestion.
How i would do Taunt.
Taunt:
Will Save
Critical Success: they are unaffected.
Success: They are Fascinated by you. This last until the start of your next turn even if they are targeted by hostile actions.
Failure: As Success, but they must spend 1 action to either make a strike against you or move towards you, assuming they can do so without provoking a reaction or entering hazardous terrain. If they can't safely move closer or Strike you, they can use their action as they wish.
Critical Failure: as Failure but they must spend 2 action.