|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The spontaneous caster handles common situations better. For the prepared caster to possibly be better, there needs to be a variety of adventures that aren't just a-bunch-of-close-combats-in-the-same-day:
* Extreme environments, like under water?
* Defending a town from a horde that arrives in a few days so you have time to make barriers and traps?
* Solving a murder mystery? (maybe not a good example, as charisma skills will likely be helpful)
* The villagers ask you to kill X for them, so now you know you are fighting X.
* a PC has died, and now you need a bunch of copies of Gentle Repose? (Yes, a spontaneous caster can get a wand, but it's still easier/cheaper for a prepared caster.)
---
It takes more work and talent to make a prepared-casters-shine-often campaign, but it's going to be a less repetitive, more interesting campaign.
I agree with less repetitive - more interesting depends on player and GM taste!
I think prepared shines the most when utility spells come into play. Things like teleport , plane shift , remove disease , remove curse and so on are things that the spontaneous caster simply can't always take (especially not in a signature slot - and you NEED to take remove curse or remove disease in a signature slot otherwise level scaling counteract checks mean it becomes useless in short order). But the prepared caster can.
Scrolls are definitely a thing.
Not to mention the Wizard cannot cast Remove Curse or Remove Disease.
We were talking prepared casters generally I thought? Not specifically wizard?
And the issue with scrolls of remove curse is that you have to buy high level ones because curse counteract level scales. Which is really expensive to have available at all times, and if you only buy them when you need them... well, there might not be a magic mart where you got cursed
From what I understand the level of the spell you use to counteract is not a factor in your counter act check, only your proficiency with the spell:
For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks.
So you don't need heightened versions of the spell on a scroll
We were talking prepared casters generally I thought? Not specifically wizard?
And the issue with scrolls of remove curse is that you have to buy high level ones because curse counteract level scales. Which is really expensive to have available at all times, and if you only buy them when you need them... well, there might not be a magic mart where you got cursed
From what I understand the level of the spell you use to counteract is not a factor in your counter act check, only your proficiency with the spell:
For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks.So you don't need heightened versions of the spell on a scrollIt isn't for the check, but you max out at spell level + 3 (on a crit success on the counteract check) and spell level + 1 (on a success on the counteract check). That's why you can't dispel 9ths with a 2nd level dispel magic .
So if you want to dispel a curse from a 10th level monster (counteract level 5), you should probably have at least a 4th level scroll.
Which makes it really painful to rely on scrolls to counteract diseases and curses, because those spells don't scale. At best, your campaign has consistent magic mart access and you can immediately make a beeline for said mart to pick up the level of scroll you require. But if you're out in the wilderness or in the middle of a dungeon when you get cursed or get sick...tough luck unless you have a stack of high level scrolls. Which eventually go bad as you "age out" of them being useful.
After all, it's not like level 15 PCs regularly get subjected to 1st level diseases or curses.
And that's why a prepared caster is valuable in that situation. Because you don't need the sack of scrolls (aka wasted gold), and you don't have to waste signature spells on remove curse,...
Yeah if I just scrolled down I would have noticed that, but I assumed "naw I don't need to read the degrees of success" lmfao
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
We were talking prepared casters generally I thought? Not specifically wizard?
And the issue with scrolls of remove curse is that you have to buy high level ones because curse counteract level scales. Which is really expensive to have available at all times, and if you only buy them when you need them... well, there might not be a magic mart where you got cursed
From what I understand the level of the spell you use to counteract is not a factor in your counter act check, only your proficiency with the spell:
For spells, the counteract check modifier is your spellcasting ability modifier plus your spellcasting proficiency bonus, plus any bonuses and penalties that specifically apply to counteract checks.So you don't need heightened versions of the spell on a scrollIt isn't for the check, but you max out at spell level + 3 (on a crit success on the counteract check) and spell level + 1 (on a success on the counteract check). That's why you can't dispel 9ths with a 2nd level dispel magic .
So if you want to dispel a curse from a 10th level monster (counteract level 5), you should probably have at least a 4th level scroll.
Which makes it really painful to rely on scrolls to counteract diseases and curses, because those spells don't scale. At best, your campaign has consistent magic mart access and you can immediately make a beeline for said mart to pick up the level of scroll you require. But if you're out in the wilderness or in the middle of a dungeon when you get cursed or get sick...tough luck unless you have a stack of high level scrolls. Which eventually go bad as you "age out" of them being useful.
After all, it's not like level 15 PCs regularly get subjected to 1st level diseases or curses.
And that's why a prepared caster is valuable in that situation. Because you don't need the sack of scrolls (aka wasted gold), and you don't have to waste signature spells on remove curse,...
Yes. The value of prepared casters is extremely dependent on the premises of your game.
I play PFS. Prepared is definitely weaker IMO in this kind of game.
Given that there's players who like both, maybe one way Paizo can go in the future is to have (one or more) caster classes that allow the choice, i.e. as subclasses.
Though hearing metalmasters' request for a prepared cha caster, I suspect that the player base will complain until Paizo delivers the ability to select any combination of [Tradition] + [main Attribute] + [Spontaneous/Prepared] + [Feat progression]...which, honestly, they could do in a future edition. But that would be more of a "buy" system than a "class" system.
I'd settle for a cha prepared caster lol. Love Cha. But all the cha classes are spontaneous
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
The spontaneous caster handles common situations better. For the prepared caster to possibly be better, there needs to be a variety of adventures that aren't just a-bunch-of-close-combats-in-the-same-day:
* Extreme environments, like under water?
Well the meta game can solve this, but underwater is an environment I would have a item for as a Sorcerer
* Defending a town from a horde that arrives in a few days so you have time to make barriers and traps?
There are mundane options.
* Solving a murder mystery? (maybe not a good example, as charisma skills will likely be helpful)
Our GMs are generally too smart to let the player have mind reading or mind control options. It gets ugly fast. Yes perhaps a Locate spell might be handy.
* The villagers ask you to kill X for them, so now you know you are fighting X.
A good half the time the villagers are badly mistaken about what X is
* a PC has died, and now you need a bunch of copies of Gentle Repose? (Yes, a spontaneous caster can get a wand, but it's still easier/cheaper for a prepared caster.)
The dead can wait. Mundane medicine can also help here.
Indeed. Why bother having a pc remove X your group the next day when you could buy the cure and continue adventuring at full power. Having solutions in the moment of tension is always how every group I've been in has played, if you can put off a tense moment so you can prepare for it, then everyone usually has options at that point, unless your going out of the way to make a certain style work, time no one else needs.
Sounds like there are a couple options to mix them some, I'm all for mashing the cloth casters together to have a spell book and a repertoire.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I love taking Dispel Magic on a spontaneous caster. Then it's Useful no matter what spell rank you cast it at because it is a signature spell, at least when I pick it.It's one of the perks, yep.
Oh really? That actually sort of surprises me! I guess for wizards that makes sense (spell access, after all). Which modules, if I might ask? Frozen Flame and parts of Extinction Curse are really bad about magic mart access, but I know others like Agents of Edgewatch and chunks of Blood Lords have the PCs in 20th level settlements.
Yes. The value of prepared casters is extremely dependent on the premises of your game.I play PFS. Prepared is definitely weaker IMO in this kind of game.
Most PFS scenarios happen in a single day. And even those that last longer rarely give many clues about what you will face next.
You often, though not always, have some unrestricted market time after the briefing and before the encounters start that you can use to buy scrolls, but Spontaneous benefit from this at least as much as Prepared.
And many many times, the seemingly obvious kind of enemies is totally a red herring, except for the times when it is not of course. For example, if the little you know about the scenario when starting the game sounds like undeads aplenty, very likely the big encounters will not be with undeads but another creature type (Fiends, Feys, Constructs ...).
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I've played a Wizard to 15th level so far, with levels 12-15 in PF2e. I think maybe I've been spoiled a bit. My friend's homebrew campaign has definitely shown off the benefits of being a prepared caster.
We've had numerous situations where we've had time to plan, and being able to revamp my daily spells to match what we're planning to do has been extremely valuable.
Meanwhile, my friend playing the Sorcerer (Draconic lineage) has also been having a blast (literally) doing their thing. So there's that as well. They also have Arcane Evolution and have helped themselves to some Spells from my Spellbook to take advantage of that.
I really want a prepared charisma spell caster
That would be interesting to see. I'm scratching my head trying to think of someone that is based on EQ and force of will but also "prepares". Cha seems a more spur of the moment stat
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There is a huge difference between a cleric/Druid prepared caster and a spell substitution wizard prepared caster. I have played all three at high levels. It is hard with a cleric or Druid to feel like you have enough slots to really take advantage of your versatility. It works when you get an adventure hook like: “tomorrow is going to be the big social encounter you’ve been hearing about for the last level of play,” or “you are assailing the fort of a apocalyptic fire cult.” But it is harder when you have to have it all ready at the start of a day full of unknowns.
The spell substitution wizard only needs a party that is willing to do things like “observe the parameter of the enemy base for 30 minutes,” and then has versatility that spontaneous casters can only dream of. It is much more like having every single spell you know as a signature spell, as long as your party wants you to be a successful part of the team.
This is the only wizard thesis I've seen operate with versatility in a reasonable time frame. It's a hard thesis to take because it used to be a class feature of the wizard and now it's a class feature tax that precludes you from taking a thesis that might be more fun.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I like the flexible spellcaster. I like it enough even at the current cost of lost spells and a feat.
Admittedly, I tend to take it on druids who have ways to compensate for the lower number of spells (good focus spells and/or wild shape)
I think that's my problem with flex prep. It has such a high cost you need a reliable backup plan for it to make sense.
My Wild Druid can go an entire day without ever casting a slotted spell (because she's just always a dinosaur or whatever), in which case giving up a bit of longevity for the ability to cast spells flexibly is a freebie.
On the other hand, flex prep on a witch seems really unpleasant. Wizard can tank the penalty better but still doesn't feel good.
I'm also sort of just disappointed at how little the archetype does. Balance and gameplay aside it just feels kind of shitty and unfun that you lose cantrips and then spend a feat to gain them back and that's it.
At what level(s) does your sorcerer add pocket library to your repertoire? What about disguise self? Feather fall? Floating Disk? Illusory Object? Magic Weapon? (or the improving Ruinic weapon)? Pest Form? Mage Armor?
Do you still have hydraulic push? Goblin Pox? Jump? Magic Missile? Horizon Thunder Sphere?I am not saying that spontaineous casters can not be fun or versatile, and I agree that they can be more versatile than most prepared casters, but You definitely do not need to play a universalist to compete with a sorcerer in versatility.
At the same moment your Wizard does: at the shop.
Feather Fall is the perfect example: You need a 10 minute fall for the Wizard to be able to substitute it. It will certainly be too late.The Spell Substitution Wizard needs 10 minutes to get any spell prepared, most challenges won't give you that much time. The Sorcerer doesn't have these limitations.
Without the Universalist school, the Spell Substitution Wizard is behind the Sorcerer in versatility due to its smaller spell list (even if they can change spells, it has half the spell list of the Sorcerer at any given moment which is a huge drawback).
So your feather fall is a scroll? I hope you always have that one in hand then I guess? Or at least when you need it?
As a wizard I can have it in my book and then if we realize we are going to going some place it is going to be useful, (like ever up) I spend one slot memorizing it or more if we are going really, really up. Otherwise I don't. If I don't use it and I've used other combat spells over the course of the day, I switch it out for something else at lunch and I go about my day. If we come to a long rickety bridge before the day is out, I tell the party "let's look around and investigate the integrity of this bridge from this side for a quick 10 minutes while I prepare for the chance things go badly. If whatever was going to attack us on the bridge attacks us early, well at least I am not on a rickety bridge when it attacks.
Scrolls for reaction spells are tough to pull of. I use air bubble a lot, usually intentionally, with tactics that involve nasty clouds. I can prepare that for a day and then abandon it later very easily if it feels like it won't be a great fit for the next couple of encounters. I don't have to have 4 versions of any spell memorized at the start of a day because I can keep subbing in spells I am actually using while the rest of the party heals after encounters. I can have one top slot dispel magic memorized for when I really need it over the course of the day, and then if I cast it in an encounter, I can sub in another (or a top rank -1 if I am running low on resources). I can do that with every single spell I know. Once a day, if I need 2 in a single encounter, I have my bond for that. I tend to spread magic missiles out this way and then refill them after I use them, rather than taking up a ton of slots at the start of the day. If I am an evoker or future battle mage, then that is usually how most of my school slots go.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. The value of prepared casters is extremely dependent on the premises of your game.
I play PFS. Prepared is definitely weaker IMO in this kind of game
If you pay attention in the first bit of a scenario you can do a lot as a prepared caster in PFS.
While PFS doesn't in general (there are exceptions) really allow you to scout/learn about things ahead of time most GMs WILL allow you to swap your spell load out after character introductions and after you get your mission briefing (heck, a fair few scenarios give you days of travel time after the briefing :-)).
The mission briefing often gives you lots of hints on what might be useful. Not as much as you can get with a lot of work in a regular game but enough that at least tweaking your spell load out is a good idea.
And the character introductions may make you realize that you'll be playing a different niche than normal in this scenario. A good example is my druid character. If the group needs a healer he can swap out spells and fill that roll, if they're going to need some AoE blasting he can do that, or he can be a front liner through wild shape (there the preparation is mostly mental although he might take a few more utility spells and a little less blasty stuff).
And, frankly, PFS tends to be a little on the easy side anyway. If you're a player who is worrying about your spell load out you're very likely a sufficiently good player that playing a slightly weaker class isn't going to matter, you'll still hit the all important level of "good enough"
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I'm also sort of just disappointed at how little the archetype does. Balance and gameplay aside it just feels kind of shitty and unfun that you lose cantrips and then spend a feat to gain them back and that's it.
Agreed. Psychologically for me, the wasted feat is a bigger hurdle than the lost spells. The lost spells seem a fairish trade off for the extra flexibility (a bit on the high side but fairish). But the feat on top of that is just rude.
With my druids I ALWAYS
1) b$#!# and moan about the cost of the flexible spell caster (mostly or entirely to myself :-))
2) Take it anyway :-).
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
Description of prepared casting.
I know about all of that and don't try to disprove it. But the Sorcerer has something, too: twice more spell choice than the Wizard.
As you seem to overlook that, I'll take rank 4 spells as an example. The Sorcerer has the choice between 4 spells known and 3 signature spells. The Specialist Wizard has the choice between 4 spells for the first spell, 3 for the second then 2 then 1 for an average of 2.5 spells.
At the beginning of the day, the Wizard may pass as a Sorcerer but every fight reduces its spell choice. After a couple of fights, the Wizard has just a couple of hammers to play with when the Sorcerer has still the entirety of its repertoire. It's only during the last 20% of the (long) day that the Sorcerer starts losing choice, but at that stage you can write the Wizard spell list on a metro ticket (I'm not sure this expression translates well to English).
Situations where you can plan ahead happen, but they don't compensate for the limitations of spell choice the Wizard has. At the end of the day, the Wizard will much more often cast the wrong spell for the job than the Sorcerer because it's all they have left. And as a side note, a lot of your examples can be handled with a few scrolls (scroll that you have to buy anyway as a Wizard if you want to write them in your spellbook). Also, you forget to consider the situations where the Sorcerer has Feather Fall in its Repertoire. The Sorcerer has much more freedom in its spell choice as it doesn't have to cast all of them, so it covers more niche situations than the Wizard.
About PFS: I disagree about PFS being a bad environment for prepared casters. PFS adventures are short which is clearly an asset for Prepared casters as they have less steam than Spontaneous ones.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
A spell like feather fall, or air bubble, or even disguise self is a massive commitment to a sorcerer. Sure a sorcerer might have a scroll with one on it, but if the day calls for two, it is back to the magic shop, hoping it is close and adequately stocked.
By your logic, Superbidi, the sorcerer is versatile because it starts the day with 7 spells that can be cast at 4th level and the spell blending wizard only has 4. But the spell blending wizard actually can cast every single spell in their book at 4th level with a single 10 minute break. They can only do so 4 times, but that is equally true of the sorcerer.
Yes, a very big part of the wizard playbook is about anticipating the adventure day. This has always been the case, and the fundamental goal of playing the PF1 God-wizard was always take control over the adventure day from the GM. PF2 has made casting much less narratively antagonistic towards the GM. The relationship between caster player and GM is one to positively foster in PF2, and the rules try to encourage this. From rarity to down time, to victory point systems, there have been massive, structural steps taken to help players and GMs communicate about expectations enough to reduce “if you know, you know” as player cheats that “win” the game for the player.
I think there are good spells to support good spontaneous casting tactics, and that is a good thing for the game. But it is a different kind of play experience to being a prepared caster. Overall, I think it is great that about 50% of the advantages of prepared casting are poachable through buying scrolls. I think that is what you are leaning into when you claim the spontaneous caster is more versatile. But that method really is limited to one time tricks and either PFS play or GM support. At the point you have GM buy in for making versatility the amazing boon it can be in PF2, you should also have the conditions in place to make the prepared caster meta of “reading the adventure” (like reading the room) in place to also make prepared casting stand out for its versatility.
|
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Yes. The value of prepared casters is extremely dependent on the premises of your game.
I play PFS. Prepared is definitely weaker IMO in this kind of game
If you pay attention in the first bit of a scenario you can do a lot as a prepared caster in PFS.
While PFS doesn't in general (there are exceptions) really allow you to scout/learn about things ahead of time most GMs WILL allow you to swap your spell load out after character introductions and after you get your mission briefing (heck, a fair few scenarios give you days of travel time after the briefing :-)).
The mission briefing often gives you lots of hints on what might be useful. Not as much as you can get with a lot of work in a regular game but enough that at least tweaking your spell load out is a good idea.
And the character introductions may make you realize that you'll be playing a different niche than normal in this scenario. A good example is my druid character. If the group needs a healer he can swap out spells and fill that roll, if they're going to need some AoE blasting he can do that, or he can be a front liner through wild shape (there the preparation is mostly mental although he might take a few more utility spells and a little less blasty stuff).
And, frankly, PFS tends to be a little on the easy side anyway. If you're a player who is worrying about your spell load out you're very likely a sufficiently good player that playing a slightly weaker class isn't going to matter, you'll still hit the all important level of "good enough"
I have NEVER seen a PFS GM allowing casters to change their spells unless there is daily preparations time to do so.
So what little info we have at the start is mostly useful for buying consumables if you are given the opportunity.
You often have the best info on what you will be facing just before the first encounter with zero time left to prepare. Even when it would make sense that this info could have been given during the mission briefing.
Making adjustments based on your fellow agents' abilities during travel time is indeed possible thankfully.
To further illustrate, I often these days play characters who have the ability to become Trained in a skill for a day that I use to get Lore that seems appropriate to the scenario. I have been able to use this kind of Lore maybe once every 5 scenarios.
I agree that thankfully PFS scenarios are usually easy and not having optimal spells still plays OK. Doubly so as some scenarios actually provide scrolls that are oddly relevant to the final encounter ...
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
A spell like feather fall, or air bubble, or even disguise self is a massive commitment to a sorcerer. Sure a sorcerer might have a scroll with one on it, but if the day calls for two, it is back to the magic shop, hoping it is close and adequately stocked.
I don't think knowing feather fall is that big of a commitment for a sorcerer. Let's say you are a level 9 draconic Sorcerer, what are you using those rank 1 slots for? True Strike (comes with the bloodline even if you would probably pick it anyway), Loose the Path, maybe a signatured Magic Missile... you can skip whatever else you wanted on that 4th slot for utility easily with those 3 covered. Past a certain level it is hard to find rank 1 spells that are worth the action cost anyway, might just go grab some niche or out of combat stuff.
Edit: Just remembered Lose the Path is Occult/Primal only. Point still stands, though.
Man, everything I hear about PFS on these boards make it sound like the worst play experience imaginable.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
My experiences with 5 levels of wizard in PFS is that it varies far more than Raven Black's. I'd say about 75 percent of the online play-by post games I have been in will give you the basic mission of the adventure, learn who else is in the team, and then memorize my spells. The vast majority of scenarios I have played involved some travel time so often times it is wrapped up in that.
You can learn a lot about how differently players will play their characters in PFS. I think it is a fascinating "people watching" environment, especially to see how differently people read the rules, envision their character concepts, and care about different parts of the game than when you just play with the same players all the time. I don't consider it a good substitute to a longer campaign with friends, but it has been a rewarding play experience.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
A spell like feather fall, or air bubble, or even disguise self is a massive commitment to a sorcerer.
It's the exact opposite, it's a small commitment. My (Divine) Sorcerer has Air Bubble, Remove Curse as a Signature Spell, Dispel Magic as a Signature Spell because I can do it with a Sorcerer. For a Wizard, these are niche spells you need to plan ahead, for the Sorcerer they are basic spells you just know. Having twice more spells than the Wizard means that you have space for a lot more niche spells in your repertoire.
I feel that you don't get it when I say that the Sorcerer has twice the spell list of the Wizard. Prepare 2 spells in each of your spell slots and you'll see what it is to be a Sorcerer. It's much more versatile than Spell Substitution.
|
|
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Man, everything I hear about PFS on these boards make it sound like the worst play experience imaginable.
It is not to me. It is a great opportunity to try different concepts and builds. It is also an excellent learning opportunity for trying different tactics based on the everchanging composition of your party, whereas in a fixed party, the tactics will end up mostly the same optimized actions.
I feel I learn more about the various tactical options of my different PCs' builds this way.
The diversity of scenarios in both stories and opponents is also quite refreshing.
Finally, having skill challenges and RP opportunities and combat encounters provides a rather well-rounded play experience in a single session of 4-5 hours. And when all these ingredients synergize well, it's a really pleasant way to play for an evening (as I usually do).
Oh I'm sure it's enjoyable. But it's constantly trotted out as a reason you can't do x, y, or z despite those being expectations of normal play.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
Illusory disguise isn't very necessary. An Arcane sorcerer has a spellbook and can change out spells. Given you have a high charisma, just use Deception or Diplomacy to disguise yourself or talk your way in. Or Intimidate your way in.
Super cheap aeon stone can get your air bubble once a day. Doubt you'll need it that often. I still haven't used air bubble in the entire time I've been playing the game. I picked it up a few times on a druid thinking , "I might need this." Never used.
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
You can use it on other people too and in a party of 4 it is hard to get most important skills covered with people picking the same skill 4 times. Feather Fall was just an example that came up earlier on the thread, though. You could change it to most other niche spells and the point made would be the same (That said Feather Fall was the sole reason 2 PCs didn't die against the final boss of my last campaign, so I wouldn't say it is a bad spell to have).
As I said earlier, past a certain point it is quite hard to get some use out of level 1 spells. If you already have True Strike and/or a decent reaction spell, what is the point of getting more generally good rank 1 spells? Are you really going to waste 2 actions on casting a rank 1 Fear at level 12 unless you are completely out of gas? I'd rather pick some niche stuff there that I know it will save the day in the rare instances it will be useful.
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
Illusory disguise isn't very necessary. An Arcane sorcerer has a spellbook and can change out spells. Given you have a high charisma, just use Deception or Diplomacy to disguise yourself or talk your way in. Or Intimidate your way in.
Super cheap aeon stone can get your air bubble once a day. Doubt you'll need it that often. I still haven't used air bubble in the entire time I've been playing the game. I picked it up a few times on a druid thinking , "I might need this." Never used.
Depends on your campaign. In a combat-centric hack n' slash campaign, totally. Bombing skill challenges because you didn't build up Arcana, Occultism, Religion or Nature isn't fun.
Air bubble? That's how you don't die as a caster who's being swallowed.
I don't die as a caster being swallowed by not being where they can swallow me.
I also max out Acrobatics and Dex to escape just in case. But I've never been swallowed as a caster that I can recall. Things that swallow never lived long enough to do much. If it swallows a target with its actions, then it's taking the beating from the rest of the party. I've mostly seen martials swallowed, maybe 3 or 4 rounds at most.
I have not found air bubble necessary. I used to take it to deal with poison gas or suffocate type spells. But those mostly do damage in this edition. Heal handles that. Suffocate in PF1 was a brutal spell. In PF2 there aren't any effects like that I can think of. So I stopped taking it.
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
You can use it on other people too and in a party of 4 it is hard to get most important skills covered with people picking the same skill 4 times. Feather Fall was just an example that came up earlier on the thread, though. You could change it to most other niche spells and the point made would be the same (That said Feather Fall was the sole reason 2 PCs didn't die against the final boss of my last campaign, so I wouldn't say it is a bad spell to have).
As I said earlier, past a certain point it is quite hard to get some use out of level 1 spells. If you already have True Strike and/or a decent reaction spell, what is the point of getting more generally good rank 1 spells? Are you really going to waste 2 actions on casting a rank 1 Fear at level 12 unless you are completely out of gas? I'd rather pick some niche stuff there that I know it will save the day in the rare instances it will be useful.
Level 1 high value spells:
True Strike
Magic Missile (probably as signature if you don't take charm, another reason why I find spontaneous with signature spells better than prepared is you can put a high value heightened lower level spells in a slot and used it as needed. Lower level spells are more valuable to spontaneous casters because they can make them sig spells in a lower level slot and heightened them as needed where as the prepared caster gets no value out of a level 1 magic missile)
Command isn't terrible for a lvl 1
Fleet Step
Heal as a signature spell if you can get it.
Protection
Feather Fall
It's another way spontaneous casters are better than prepared in PF2 because lower level signature spells act as high level spells usable as needed heightened to an appropriate level.
It's another way spontaneous casters are better than prepared in PF2 because lower level signature spells act as high level spells...
I agree with this, both Magic Missile and Heal (who coincidentally don't share traditions) go a long way as signatures.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It's another way spontaneous casters are better than prepared in PF2 because lower level signature spells act as high level spells...I agree with this, both Magic Missile and Heal (who coincidentally don't share traditions) go a long way as signatures.
Magic missile and spells like fireball or mirror image used to auto-scale in PF1, so it made those slots more valuable for prepared casters.
In PF2 there is no auto-scaling, so sig spells make lower level spells more valuable for spontaneous casters.
Just another reason why I think they should move to all spontaneous like 5E did with wizards maintaining the Vancian ability to switch out spells.
It puts prepared casters on a weaker scale due to to signature spells allowing spontaneous casters to use heightening to have more high level spells available to them by heightening lower level spells with more powerful effects like slow or charm or magic missile or heal.
Not more slots, but with sig spells they have their four highest level spells to chose from and up to eight lower level spells to choose from for a total of 12 possible spells to use in a level 9 slot at max level. And they can use spells like mass slow in all their 7th, 8th, and 9th level slots to cast mass slow 12 times a day.
I cast slow last night and had a critical fail on a boss mob, turned the fight from a brutal battle to a tea party. So using that spell a bunch until you stick it is powerful. Only spontaneous casters can do this in PF2.
|
|
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
You can use it on other people too and in a party of 4 it is hard to get most important skills covered with people picking the same skill 4 times. Feather Fall was just an example that came up earlier on the thread, though. You could change it to most other niche spells and the point made would be the same (That said Feather Fall was the sole reason 2 PCs didn't die against the final boss of my last campaign, so I wouldn't say it is a bad spell to have).
As I said earlier, past a certain point it is quite hard to get some use out of level 1 spells. If you already have True Strike and/or a decent reaction spell, what is the point of getting more generally good rank 1 spells? Are you really going to waste 2 actions on casting a rank 1 Fear at level 12 unless you are completely out of gas? I'd rather pick some niche stuff there that I know it will save the day in the rare instances it will be useful.
Level 1 high value spells:
True Strike
Magic Missile (probably as signature if you don't take charm, another reason why I find spontaneous with signature spells better than prepared is you can put a high value heightened lower level spells in a slot and used it as needed. Lower level spells are more valuable to spontaneous casters because they can make them sig spells in a lower level slot and heightened them as needed where as the prepared caster gets no value out of a level 1 magic missile)
Command isn't terrible for a lvl 1
Fleet Step
Heal as a signature spell if you can get it.
Protection
Feather FallIt's another way spontaneous casters are better than prepared in PF2 because lower level signature spells act as high level spells...
I enjoy using Lose the path too.
...I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.
You can use it on other people too and in a party of 4 it is hard to get most important skills covered with people picking the same skill 4 times. Feather Fall was just an example that came up earlier on the thread, though. You could change it to most other niche spells and the point made would be the same (That said Feather Fall was the sole reason 2 PCs didn't die against the final boss of my last campaign, so I wouldn't say it is a bad spell to have).
As I said earlier, past a certain point it is quite hard to get some use out of level 1 spells. If you already have True Strike and/or a decent reaction spell, what is the point of getting more generally good rank 1 spells? Are you really going to waste 2 actions on casting a rank 1 Fear at level 12 unless you are completely out of gas? I'd rather pick some niche stuff there that I know it will save the day in the rare instances it will be useful.
Level 1 high value spells:
True Strike
Magic Missile (probably as signature if you don't take charm, another reason why I find spontaneous with signature spells better than prepared is you can put a high value heightened lower level spells in a slot and used it as needed. Lower level spells are more valuable to spontaneous casters because they can make them sig spells in a lower level slot and heightened them as needed where as the prepared caster gets no value out of a level 1 magic missile)
Command isn't terrible for a lvl 1
Fleet Step
Heal as a signature spell if you can get it.
Protection
Feather FallIt's another way spontaneous casters are better than prepared in PF2 because lower level signature
I love having either Lose the Path or Schaudenfreude once I reach level 7 or so. Don't think I would ever bother with them as a prepared caster though.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I don't know why I would get Feather Fall with the Cat Fall skill feat. I build up my acrobatics and pick up Cat Fall. Everyone in my group does this. You don't fall that often. Acrobatics is one of the best caster skills to build up. It's my main escape skill and I love to pick up Kip Up and Cat Fall.How Cat Fall helps you with 200 ft falls? Or even 100ft? Legendary skills doesn't count: too long wait for that (and not everyone takes L. Acrobatics).
But yes, even if Feather Fall can't be really used on scrolls, there are a lot of items which provide its effect, some of them very cheap.
And Air Bubble actually can be used from scrolls rather easily, as characters have quite a lot of rounds to hold breath before they suffocate.
I'm not really sure how characters come into this as GMs aren't allowed to change adventures a lot in PFS. And adding a night's rest where there wasn't one is a huge change.My experiences with 5 levels of wizard in PFS is that it varies far more than Raven Black's. I'd say about 75 percent of the online play-by post games I have been in will give you the basic mission of the adventure, learn who else is in the team, and then memorize my spells. The vast majority of scenarios I have played involved some travel time so often times it is wrapped up in that.
You can learn a lot about how differently players will play their characters in PFS.
Cat Fall reduces the fall by the amount of feet. So a 100 foot fall is reduced to 50 feet or 25 damage by lvl 7. 200 foot fall reduced to 150 feet or 75 damage. It helps quite a bit.
Not sure how often you are falling 100 or 200 feet, I've been fine with Cat Fall for most falls. I even jump down 10 foot or 20 foot drops with cat fall without bothering to climb down wasting time on Athletics checks.
Cat Fall is a great skill feat that makes Acrobatics a high value skill.
See I have had my fair share of epic fights high above the ground where catfall is kinda meh. Not bad, but also it won't save you from splattering like feather fall will.
I used to be all in on everyone pumping acrobatics. Then I realized how many adventures wind up being "if you can't make the arcana check in the research subsystem you literally can't advance and you lose".
After that I started diversifying skills.
Are you playing something besides APs? I haven't run into a roadblock like this myself.
Paizo always seems to provide several options for resolution and someone in the party usually has one. We do have one player who really likes rogues and skills. So they spend a lot of their resources on skills and being the guy that can figure things out. Generally, everyone has one of the caster skills or something applicable.
We almost always have a rogue in the group with rare exception. This guy will take a level 2 feat like Acrobat Dedication to get Legendary acrobatics then focus his other skill ups on a mix of Stealth, Thievery, and a research skill or two while building up intel and wisdom some.
Then we like how Religion is more valuable as a skill now for dealing with haunts and certain other hazards as well as Rk for outsiders with some interesting skill feats. They seem to done a bit more with additional books to build up religion into an interesting skill.
And any wizard player I've seen played always builds up Arcane. Unified Theory is an awesome skill feat. Makes life easier in a lot of ways though I hear some run it as only applying to magic, whereas my reading is anything that the Arcane skill can be used for including monster identification applies to that skill. How do you run that skill feat? Only for abilities like Spell Recognition or Magical shorthand or do you allow it for RK for monsters as well?
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
How do you run that skill feat? Only for abilities like Spell Recognition or Magical shorthand or do you allow it for RK for monsters as well?
I think a lot of people run it RAW, so only for spells and magic items recognition. Monsters are not dependent on traditions, outside some very specific ones (maybe I'd allow it for the new dragons who are definitely linked to traditions).
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I like the flexible spellcaster. I like it enough even at the current cost of lost spells and a feat.
Admittedly, I tend to take it on druids who have ways to compensate for the lower number of spells (good focus spells and/or wild shape)
Flexible spellcasting with an archetype to get some extra spell slots (and adding another tradition for item usage) is nice indeed.
Prepared usually cannot use all their slots, so it is mostly like if they have less, but in the other hand the top on tuning as you can spend a single spell slot instead a spell (of a repertoire or collection). You could have literally as many different spells as spell slots number.
A good friend of a prepared one is a staff, so it can recharge it an delegate to the staff some of its capabilities, as works in a power points manner, instead using slots.
I should have added “per rest”. And for heightened spells the repertoire is not so flexible with only 1 signature of each level.