Prepared Vs spontaneous Casters

[siegfriedliner]

I am not a fan of prepared spell casting in pathfinder since 1e I have ended up keeping a similar spell liar each day so I didn't drive myself mad trying think about the perfect combination of spells. I do that for spontaneous too but at least that's once per level only.

Wizards were and are the most prepared spellcaster in the game, they are to put it bluntly the highest effort spellcaster to run and if you got your preparations wrong one of the most frustrating to play.

But people like that about them. Any change that would make them less teeth grindy for me would deprive wizard players of their fun.

So who agrees with me that spontaneous casting is easier, funner and possibly more powerful because of the amount of choice you have for each spell slot on the spur of moment.

Or who likes micromanaging a big list of spells each morning to find the ultimate combination ?

Ps this is a mostly tongue and cheek post inspired by the anamist and kinetesist getting me thinking about different styles of spell preparation.

[Reza la Canaille]

You dare mispell the name Kineticist. I shall smite you with the power of three wet mice.

But yes, I do personally think spontaneous casters are more fun to play than prepared ones, for the same reasons that I don't enjoy playing "Make X amount of bane arrows each day" types of characters. The reasons being that A: I don't like running out of ammo, B: I especially don't like being out of specific ammo that i needed while having other specific ammo i don't need, and C: I am all hindsight and no foresight.

Have I told you guys about the Kineticist yet.

[AestheticDialectic]

I have found spontaneous casters to feel like a straight jacket when I've played them, particularly the psychic. Being locked into spells is one of the most feelsbadman things in the game for me, so I really truly do not understand the favoritism for spontaneous casters

[Crouza]

It's interesting and is different things to different people.

For example, I prefer spontaneous casters because I just don't like micromanaging my spell list. I enjoy having a narrower amount of spells in my arsenal in exchange for a ease of use.

This is not a hard and fast rule. Magus is a prepared caster and magus is a lot of fun, when you only have 4 slots to worry about and you know you want spell attack spells, choices become much easier to manage.

Then there's someone like my brother. He started our Strength of Thousands game as a bard and hated it because he felt like he kept picking the wrong spells and had no choice but to lug them around. He switched to druid, a prepared caster, and actually views it as easier to play than bard. For him, it's not having to micromanage a list, but having the freedom to build whatever he wants, whenever he wants. When he played prepared, every choice at level 1 was weighted against every other possible spell choice, and it made him feel extra bad when he'd pick a spell and it turned out to be way more niche than he thought or just not useful in the current situation.

So it's not as simple as Prepared is harder than Spontaneous and only those who enjoy complexity like it. For some people it is genuinely an easier experience to be a prepared caster than a spontaneous one.

[HammerJack]

So, I enjoy spontaneous casters... but I enjoy spontaneous casters BECAUSE I like to try to tune my repertoire and scroll collection and do the micromanagement to try to maximize my preparation for as many cases as possible.

So it isn't a shock that I also really enjoy prepared casting.

[AestheticDialectic]

HammerJack wrote:

So, I enjoy spontaneous casters... but I enjoy spontaneous casters BECAUSE I like to try to tune my repertoire and scroll collection and do the micromanagement to try to maximize my preparation for as many cases as possible.

So it isn't a shock that I also really enjoy prepared casting.

Yeah, I don't see spontaneous casters as less work for a similar reason to this, I just find them more limiting

[MEATSHED]

If I had to guess it is just a bit less stressful for a lot of people. My divine sorcerer just needs to make heal their signature spell and then I don't have to worry if my top level spells will be useful for the day.

[siegfriedliner]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

I have found spontaneous casters to feel like a straight jacket when I've played them, particularly the psychic. Being locked into spells is one of the most feelsbadman things in the game for me, so I really truly do not understand the favoritism for spontaneous casters

I am also not a fan of having spells thrust upon you (sorcerers and psychics I am looking at you).

[Sy Kerraduess]

I find prepared spellcasting inevitably leads me to feelings of regret when the exact spell I need to save the group is already expended. That said Flexible Spell Preparation fixes my issues with it just fine.

[AestheticDialectic]

siegfriedliner wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

I have found spontaneous casters to feel like a straight jacket when I've played them, particularly the psychic. Being locked into spells is one of the most feelsbadman things in the game for me, so I really truly do not understand the favoritism for spontaneous casters

I am also not a fan of having spells thrust upon you (sorcerers and psychics I am looking at you).

Real, I forget if this made it to the final version of psychic but the level one spell for Silent Whisper was absolutely awful... actually looking it up mid typing... yes, mind link. It's particularly awful when Distant Grasp gets really awesome spells each level. Distant Grasp is getting better damage cantrips, a cool buff to mage hand and telekinetic ram, and I'm over here getting freakin' mind link, man. It's a cruel joke

[The Raven Black]

I like Spontaneous because "I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = failed save" never gets old.

And, with Spontaneous, I only worry about rereading all the spell guides' analyses every level rather than every IC day.

That said, I enjoy my Baba Yaga Witch very much. Because who does not like having furniture beat on your enemies ?

[WWHsmackdown]

I'm fine with both. The fusion style of the animist has me interested

[pauljathome]

I like the flexible spellcaster. I like it enough even at the current cost of lost spells and a feat.

Admittedly, I tend to take it on druids who have ways to compensate for the lower number of spells (good focus spells and/or wild shape)

[The Raven Black]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

siegfriedliner wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

I have found spontaneous casters to feel like a straight jacket when I've played them, particularly the psychic. Being locked into spells is one of the most feelsbadman things in the game for me, so I really truly do not understand the favoritism for spontaneous casters

I am also not a fan of having spells thrust upon you (sorcerers and psychics I am looking at you).

Real, I forget if this made it to the final version of psychic but the level one spell for Silent Whisper was absolutely awful... actually looking it up mid typing... yes, mind link. It's particularly awful when Distant Grasp gets really awesome spells each level. Distant Grasp is getting better damage cantrips, a cool buff to mage hand and telekinetic ram, and I'm over here getting freakin' mind link, man. It's a cruel joke

People, about spells you just get without a choice, you might want to have a look at the Animist playtest.

[breithauptclan]

The Raven Black wrote:

I like Spontaneous because "I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = failed save" never gets old.

Speaking of Animist - guess who doesn't currently get Fear in any of their spontaneous casting lists. They would have to prepare it in their Divine prepared casting slots.

[Perpdepog]

I like both prepared and spontaneous casters. That being said I tend to play spontaneous casters more often because it is a lot easier to note down what I have expended as a spontaneous caster. Whenever I play prepared I have to figure out some scheme of marking off each individual spell slot, while as a spontaneous caster I can simply note down how many spell slots of any given level I have expended.

[The Raven Black]

breithauptclan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I like Spontaneous because "I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = failed save" never gets old.

Speaking of Animist - guess who doesn't currently get Fear in any of their spontaneous casting lists. They would have to prepare it in their Divine prepared casting slots.

I could see an Apparition of graveyards and gallows getting Fear on their list.

[breithauptclan]

The Raven Black wrote:

breithauptclan wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I like Spontaneous because "I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = successful save, I cast Fear = failed save" never gets old.

Speaking of Animist - guess who doesn't currently get Fear in any of their spontaneous casting lists. They would have to prepare it in their Divine prepared casting slots.

I could see an Apparition of graveyards and gallows getting Fear on their list.

I absolutely could see that too.

And at that point you would still have to either use some of your prepared slots to prepare Fear in, or have a lot fewer castings of Fear available. Especially if there are other spells in your Repertoire of the day that are competing for being cast.

It is a very interesting spellcasting mechanic. Quite flexible in many aspects, but also very limited in others.

[Temperans]

I like spontaneous because you can just try again.

I liked prepared because you could get spells faster and had a lot more control over how you cast your spells.

I dislike prepared now because all of its benefits are gone. While keeping all the negatives.

[WatersLethe]

I like prepared better because it's satisfying to plan ahead and have it rewarded, as well as a fun challenge when you make a miscalculation and have to make do.

Being a spontaneous spellcaster feels like being a spellcaster in a video game. Powerful, but limited and less responsive to the best parts of playing a TTRPG.

[AestheticDialectic]

The Raven Black wrote:

People, about spells you just get without a choice, you might want to have a look at the Animist playtest.

Animist looks so super cool and will probably end up one of my favorite classes come release, but I've said little to nothing on it because I won't get to playtest it. I only get to play every other week right now with the current group I'm with

[pixierose]

I like both. I lean towards spontaneous in general but some of my favorite classes are also prepared( i love the cleric for example)

When I want a tighter knit of abilities often tied together by themes a spontaneous clcaster is the obvious chocie. I also like it when the subclass "forces" a spell on to me lets me try out new spells, and it strengthens the theme. That being said i do het why people dont like them, i've considered playing a shadow sorceree for awhile but kind of hate they get chilling darkness, a spell that is evil that doesnt feel like it has to be. To me, if I had the ability to swap out to another spell daily on a character i wanted to play around those tight, limited abilities, well I would feel it would lessen the characters themes even if I never took advantage of that switch.(and of course given how some tables and communities can be, others might expect you to take advantage of said feature.)

Meanwhile prepared casters let me explore magic in a broader sense, and lets me play characters who like to act as problem solvers and who try and predict whats going to happen that day. Sure some days I might stick to my favorites, but i have the option not to. And in general i perfer to play them as more purposeful than my spontaneous casters.

Spontaneous caster characters for me are almost always those with power thrust upon them, and thus must learn to tey and use those powers in whatever situation they find themselves in.

My prepared casters instead are usually much more purposeful in their choices and what they seek. Both in terms of power and narrative. They seeked and gained these powers for a reason and they will use it to achieve those goals.

Nuances and edge cases exist though obviously.

[The Raven Black]

AestheticDialectic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

People, about spells you just get without a choice, you might want to have a look at the Animist playtest.

Animist looks so super cool and will probably end up one of my favorite classes come release, but I've said little to nothing on it because I won't get to playtest it. I only get to play every other week right now with the current group I'm with

You can still answer the survey ;-)

Let your voice be heard.

[AestheticDialectic]

pauljathome wrote:

I like the flexible spellcaster. I like it enough even at the current cost of lost spells and a feat.

Admittedly, I tend to take it on druids who have ways to compensate for the lower number of spells (good focus spells and/or wild shape)

My argument against flexible spellcasting being the norm in this game is that it makes spontaneous less unique. If spontaneous got a huge overhaul, particularly sorcerers, to be more at-will focused like psychics, kineticists and the like, I would likely advocate for prepared becoming flexible by default. I'm only opposed to spell substitution being a baseline class feature for wizards if it eats into the power budget, if it does and we lose stuff I don't want it. If it doesn't and we can just have it, I'm down

[AestheticDialectic]

The Raven Black wrote:

AestheticDialectic wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

People, about spells you just get without a choice, you might want to have a look at the Animist playtest.

Animist looks so super cool and will probably end up one of my favorite classes come release, but I've said little to nothing on it because I won't get to playtest it. I only get to play every other week right now with the current group I'm with

You can still answer the survey ;-)

Let your voice be heard.

Fair, I'll only answer insofar as it pertains to things I don't have to play test, such maybe making sure apparitions give us spells which are known to be good. I rather pick up stuff like "mind link" like the psychic has as a scroll if I am ever going to use such a niche spell. I did actually put this in the psychic survey but y'know

[Cylar Nann]

After playing enough PF2 I have just grown to really dislike prepared casting. I just love Spontaneous spellcasting so much more. Signature spells ensure that I will always have a good use of a spell slot for each combat. Pretty much never plan on playing a prepared caster without flexible archetype again.

At this point though I enjoy Kineticist "casting" the most. After thinking about it Kineticist gives me what I always loved about Spontaneous casting but without spell slots.

Basically, every impulse a Kineticist gets is a "signature spell" because of auto scaling.

An example as a Primal Sorcerer my signature spells might be heal (heal)/fireball (aoe damage)/fear (support) so I always have something to cast for the circumstance.

Kineticist I could have Torrent of Blood + Ocean's Balm (heal) / Tidal Hands (aoe damage) / Winter's Sleet (support). Which allows me to do something different depending on the circumstance.

Just hope we get more casters like this that lose spell slots but get to choose multiple spell like abilities that have unlimited casting.

[AestheticDialectic]

Cylar Nann wrote:

After playing enough PF2 I have just grown to really dislike prepared casting. I just love Spontaneous spellcasting so much more. Signature spells ensure that I will always have a good use of a spell slot for each combat. Pretty much never plan on playing a prepared caster with flexible archetype again.

At this point though I enjoy Kineticist "casting" the most. After thinking about it Kineticist gives me what I always loved about Spontaneous casting but without spell slots.

Basically, every impulse a Kineticist gets is a "signature spell" because of auto scaling.

An example as a Primal Sorcerer my signature spells might be heal (heal)/fireball (aoe damage)/fear (support) so I always have something to cast for the circumstance.

Kineticist I could have Torrent of Blood + Ocean's Balm (heal) / Tidal Hands (aoe damage) / Winter's Sleet (support). Which allows me to do something different depending on the circumstance.

Just hope we get more casters like this that lose spell slots but get to choose multiple spell like abilities that have unlimited casting.

A hybrid spontaneous-kineticist system, if it can be pulled off, would be perfect for the theme of a class like the sorcerer. I really do think that is the future of non-wizard/non-prepared casters in whatever 3rd edition ends up being. Spontaneous casters, especially sorcerers seem to be designed to created themed casters by giving you specific spells known, drastically limiting spells known and giving powerful focus spells, and more over your "theme", in this case bloodline, gives you a specific list to use. Crossblooded evolution from this stance can feel a little bit like a flavor fail, but if instead sorcerers cast their abilities at-will or semi at-will for the most part and selected from thematic spells to their bloodline exclusively or mostly exclusively, then we could have what I think satisfies a lot of users looking for thematic focused casters who get to do the martial role of filling the encounter progress bar

If we could have that and I still get my vancian wizard, I think a lot more people would be happy

***Edit***
I just realized one way this could work, but would need some refining. What if sorcerers picked spells they knew but had no spell slots. Instead they got to recharge the spells to use them over and over again with actions or other at-will abilities, or even focus spells/cantrips. Not unlike the magus. Then as a balancing factor and to fit it being a thematic caster we limit this number of known spells a fair bit, but they get stuff like dangerous sorcery that increases stuff like the damage of these spells. This way they still interact with the spell system but are truly outside the bounds and limits of vancian magic and are quasi-at-will for the people whom this matters to

[OrochiFuror]

I loathe vancian casting. I've never played in a game in 30 years that a DM would give you so much knowledge of what your up against that you could make spell choices that you knew would be perfect. I've also never played a game where you knew for sure you would have have a day off so could swap to all non combat spells and have that be meaningful.

So for me, being prepared for as many things as possible as often as possible has always been a baseline. Prepared casters have always been bad at that, because sometimes you need that one spell two or three times, and only spontaneous casters reliably cover that.

The exception being themed adventures like AV, but I tend to have a low opinion of adventures you can build a character that is just a good counter to the adventure as a whole.

I haven't played one yet but I think I would like a sorcerer with the spell book feat to have some ability to swap spells around.

For me, the feel of having multiple spell slots not be the right thing for that day vastly outweighs any good feel having the right spell gives. As well as choice paralysis, do you use this ok spell now and maybe not have it when you need it? That's the least amount of fun possible to me.

[Martialmasters]

I dislike spontaneous casters TBH. I find them limiting. I dislike how they interact with new spells. Signature spells are too limited. I hate how they interact with staves.

Prepared casting can be punishing at times. But a flexible wizard with substitution thesis is amazing. I get a bigger list of options than signature spells that grows with me. I like how I interact with equipment. It's my preferred play style whenever possible

If you look at it on paper it sounds terrible. In actual play it's amazing. It hits my sweet spot between prepared versatility and spontaneous ease of use.

[Old_Man_Robot]

I've found the ease-of-use factor with Spontaneous casters more compelling than I thought I would like with this edition.

I want to love prepared casters more than I think I really do, and I actually quite like the vancian approach. My first PF2 character was a Wizard I played 1-20, and then I played around one 1-8 (who promptly died), then I took an Arcane Sorcerer the rest of that game from 8-20.

Signature spells is the real game changer.

Planning and learning select spells at select levels was a bit of a pain to start with, but when combined with signature spells, it really feels like you are creating a strong, bespoke, approach to magic, where, if you do it right, you always have an answer to something.

Plus, talking directly to the Arcance Sorcerer experience, between Arcane Evolution allowing me to prep a new spell each day to solve specific problems that I didn't already have a direct answer for felt great. I was able to use Crossblooded evolution to grab Heal off the primal list, and then at 10th made it a signature.

So while the Arcane Sorcerer is probably the best version of the spontaneous caster, due to my realtively high level of system mastery, my core rep was pretty much good enough to handle most things.

There is an element of "Right tool for the job" vs "When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" approach. But just from personal experience, you can curate a big enough tool chest so that you are packing more than just hammers.

[SuperBidi]

From a power point of view, Spontaneous beats Prepared hands down thanks to its great versatility. Having the right tool for the job is really an asset.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

There is an element of "Right tool for the job" vs "When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" approach. But just from personal experience, you can curate a big enough tool chest so that you are packing more than just hammers.

I feel you messed it up: "Right tool for the job" defines spontaneous and "When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" defines prepared (especially after you have cast a few spells).

Versatility is now the asset of spontaneous, no more the one of prepared.

[Old_Man_Robot]

SuperBidi wrote:

From a power point of view, Spontaneous beats Prepared hands down thanks to its great versatility. Having the right tool for the job is really an asset.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

There is an element of "Right tool for the job" vs "When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" approach. But just from personal experience, you can curate a big enough tool chest so that you are packing more than just hammers.

I feel you messed it up: "Right tool for the job" defines spontaneous and "When all you have is a hammer, everything is a nail" defines prepared (especially after you have cast a few spells).

Versatility is now the asset of spontaneous, no more the one of prepared.

Its an interesting perspective switch that I'm not sure I wholly grok.

Would prepared not be more of a "Right Tool" because you can select potentially very niche spells which solve very specific problems, without it impacting your long term options.

Whereas spontaneous would be more of the "Hammer" approach, because your overall selection of tools is much more limited, so if you find yourself without a specific spell, you have to make use of what you have.

[Gortle]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Whereas spontaneous would be more of the "Hammer" approach, because your overall selection of tools is much more limited, so if you find yourself without a specific spell, you have to make use of what you have.

Not really. The spontaneous caster chooses a few first rate spells which they signature and can use all their spells slots with. They have no wasted spell slots. Then they can have a selection of spells that just came with their build eg some bloodline spells. But they still have room to have a few special spells that are strong in particular circumtances but aren't always useful. Then there are consumables and magic items.

Finally all spontaneous casters can retrain a spell in a week. They can also keep track of their spells they collect in a spell book for when they need them.

There is really very little reason to take a prepared caster in PF2.

[Martialmasters]

I don't agree with the idea they spontaneous is the one with more versatility. It has more spell slot versatility, not more spell versatility.

[SuperBidi]

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Would prepared not be more of a "Right Tool" because you can select potentially very niche spells which solve very specific problems, without it impacting your long term options.

To do that, you need 2 things:

- To know about the need at least a day before you need it. So it's extremely specific. Most of the time you discover challenges while adventuring.
- To have the spell in your spellbook. It's not an issue for Cleric and Druid, but definitely for the others.

At that, I can add a third point:
- If it's a combat spell you won't be able to prepare it the proper number of times. For example, if you know you'll face Fiends, you will prepare a couple of Searing Light but you can't know beforehand the exact number of Searing Lights you'll need. So even with knowledge you can't prepare the right tool properly.

Overall, the cases where you'll have the right tool and the Sorcerer next to you, with Scrolls for all the niche spells they don't have in their repertoire, won't are extremely rare. It'll be a couple of times in your adventuring career.

Old_Man_Robot wrote:

Whereas spontaneous would be more of the "Hammer" approach, because your overall selection of tools is much more limited

You also have to consider the versatility given by Signature spells. Spells like Dispel Magic are absolutely awesome as Signature spells as you can precisely choose the best level to use them, something the Wizard is unable to do. Another big asset of Signature spells is that you can choose which spell slot to use. If for example you have 1 level 3 spell slot left, you can choose to use a different level for your Heal to keep your access to level 3 spells.

Overall, your selection of tools is much wider. My high level Sorcerer has 3 times the choice a Wizard has. And that's at the beginning of the day, in the middle of it it's countless times (considering that the spells the Wizard has used are certainly the ones they'll miss a lot) so let's be honest at that stage the Wizard has a very tiny hammer next to the Sorcerer.

Martialmasters wrote:

I don't agree with the idea they spontaneous is the one with more versatility. It has more spell slot versatility, not more spell versatility.

Play a Spontaneous caster. Versatility is totally and entirely a thing of Spontaneous casters. The days where Prepared casters were versatile are over.

[Martialmasters]

I've played one

I hated every level up

[SuperBidi]

Ok.

There's one catch with Spontaneous casters that Prepared casters don't have: You need to know the game quite well. Because if your selection of spells is bad, it'll take a lot of time to retrain them. So you can't really test spells with a Spontaneous caster the way you can with a Prepared one. But that's a beginner issue. Once you know the good stuff, you just take it and don't regret it.

[Martialmasters]

That's pretty boring for me personally and I'd rather play a martial at that point.

But what I hated was how they interact with staves and how they learn new spells

[Unicore]

There is a huge difference between a cleric/Druid prepared caster and a spell substitution wizard prepared caster. I have played all three at high levels. It is hard with a cleric or Druid to feel like you have enough slots to really take advantage of your versatility. It works when you get an adventure hook like: “tomorrow is going to be the big social encounter you’ve been hearing about for the last level of play,” or “you are assailing the fort of a apocalyptic fire cult.” But it is harder when you have to have it all ready at the start of a day full of unknowns.

The spell substitution wizard only needs a party that is willing to do things like “observe the parameter of the enemy base for 30 minutes,” and then has versatility that spontaneous casters can only dream of. It is much more like having every single spell you know as a signature spell, as long as your party wants you to be a successful part of the team.

[pauljathome]

Gortle wrote:

There is really very little reason to take a prepared caster in PF2.

That is grossly overstating it.

1) lots of casters are more than just their spells. For example, there are lots of mechanical and flavour reasons to prefer a druid to a primal sorcerer (and vice versa, of course. I'm saying both are good and different options)

2) it can get boring to play yet another charisma based character

3) although it comes up somewhat infrequently the ability to totally change your spell selection for a particular challenge can be huge.

[Martialmasters]

I really want a prepared charisma spell caster

[Sy Kerraduess]

Martialmasters wrote:

I really want a prepared charisma spell caster

Well Champion was the prepared CHA caster in 1e, so that ship has likely sailed.

That said, if you don't mind houserules you could propably just change the key ability score of an existing prepared caster to CHA without breaking anything (just don't multiclass if you want to be extra safe).

[whew]

The spontaneous caster handles common situations better. For the prepared caster to possibly be better, there needs to be a variety of adventures that aren't just a-bunch-of-close-combats-in-the-same-day:

* Extreme environments, like under water?

* Defending a town from a horde that arrives in a few days so you have time to make barriers and traps?

* Solving a murder mystery? (maybe not a good example, as charisma skills will likely be helpful)

* The villagers ask you to kill X for them, so now you know you are fighting X.

* a PC has died, and now you need a bunch of copies of Gentle Repose? (Yes, a spontaneous caster can get a wand, but it's still easier/cheaper for a prepared caster.)

---

It takes more work and talent to make a prepared-casters-shine-often campaign, but it's going to be a less repetitive, more interesting campaign.

[SuperBidi]

Unicore wrote:

The spell substitution wizard only needs a party that is willing to do things like “observe the parameter of the enemy base for 30 minutes,” and then has versatility that spontaneous casters can only dream of.

Not really (about the last part). You need to add Universalist school to compete with a Sorcerer in terms of versatility. And you need to play really well as otherwise you'll still be behind. You seem to completely overlook Spontaneous casters' versatility.

Martialmasters wrote:

I've played one

Out of curiosity, up to what level? Because the Spontaneous casters' versatility really comes into play when you start having a few Signature spells, so at mid level.

[Unicore]

At what level(s) does your sorcerer add pocket library to your repertoire? What about disguise self? Feather fall? Floating Disk? Illusory Object? Magic Weapon? (or the improving Ruinic weapon)? Pest Form? Mage Armor?
Do you still have hydraulic push? Goblin Pox? Jump? Magic Missile? Horizon Thunder Sphere?

I am not saying that spontaineous casters can not be fun or versatile, and I agree that they can be more versatile than most prepared casters, but You definitely do not need to play a universalist to compete with a sorcerer in versatility.

[SuperBidi]

Unicore wrote:

At what level(s) does your sorcerer add pocket library to your repertoire? What about disguise self? Feather fall? Floating Disk? Illusory Object? Magic Weapon? (or the improving Ruinic weapon)? Pest Form? Mage Armor?

Do you still have hydraulic push? Goblin Pox? Jump? Magic Missile? Horizon Thunder Sphere?

I am not saying that spontaineous casters can not be fun or versatile, and I agree that they can be more versatile than most prepared casters, but You definitely do not need to play a universalist to compete with a sorcerer in versatility.

At the same moment your Wizard does: at the shop.

Feather Fall is the perfect example: You need a 10 minute fall for the Wizard to be able to substitute it. It will certainly be too late.

The Spell Substitution Wizard needs 10 minutes to get any spell prepared, most challenges won't give you that much time. The Sorcerer doesn't have these limitations.

Without the Universalist school, the Spell Substitution Wizard is behind the Sorcerer in versatility due to its smaller spell list (even if they can change spells, it has half the spell list of the Sorcerer at any given moment which is a huge drawback).

[Calliope5431]

whew wrote:

The spontaneous caster handles common situations better. For the prepared caster to possibly be better, there needs to be a variety of adventures that aren't just a-bunch-of-close-combats-in-the-same-day:

* Extreme environments, like under water?

* Defending a town from a horde that arrives in a few days so you have time to make barriers and traps?

* Solving a murder mystery? (maybe not a good example, as charisma skills will likely be helpful)

* The villagers ask you to kill X for them, so now you know you are fighting X.

* a PC has died, and now you need a bunch of copies of Gentle Repose? (Yes, a spontaneous caster can get a wand, but it's still easier/cheaper for a prepared caster.)

---

It takes more work and talent to make a prepared-casters-shine-often campaign, but it's going to be a less repetitive, more interesting campaign.

I agree with less repetitive - more interesting depends on player and GM taste!

I think prepared shines the most when utility spells come into play. Things like teleport , plane shift , remove disease , remove curse and so on are things that the spontaneous caster simply can't always take (especially not in a signature slot - and you NEED to take remove curse or remove disease in a signature slot otherwise level scaling counteract checks mean it becomes useless in short order). But the prepared caster can.

[Martialmasters]

SuperBidi wrote:

Unicore wrote:

The spell substitution wizard only needs a party that is willing to do things like “observe the parameter of the enemy base for 30 minutes,” and then has versatility that spontaneous casters can only dream of.

Not really (about the last part). You need to add Universalist school to compete with a Sorcerer in terms of versatility. And you need to play really well as otherwise you'll still be behind. You seem to completely overlook Spontaneous casters' versatility.

Martialmasters wrote:

I've played one

Out of curiosity, up to what level? Because the Spontaneous casters' versatility really comes into play when you start having a few Signature spells, so at mid level.

Level 8. For my signature didn't give me enough options and I hated level ups because the way non signature spells work for them (having to learn the higher level version)

Not to mention one of the most defining items for casters, staves,I really didn't enjoy mechanically with spontaneous casters

If the DM at the time doesn't like giving information about upcoming encounters with proper investigation. Or the other players refuse to do so. I vastly prefer the actual play or the flexible caster archetype vs a spontaneous caster.

[AestheticDialectic]

Martialmasters wrote:

SuperBidi wrote:

Unicore wrote:

The spell substitution wizard only needs a party that is willing to do things like “observe the parameter of the enemy base for 30 minutes,” and then has versatility that spontaneous casters can only dream of.

Not really (about the last part). You need to add Universalist school to compete with a Sorcerer in terms of versatility. And you need to play really well as otherwise you'll still be behind. You seem to completely overlook Spontaneous casters' versatility.

Martialmasters wrote:

I've played one

Out of curiosity, up to what level? Because the Spontaneous casters' versatility really comes into play when you start having a few Signature spells, so at mid level.

Level 8. For my signature didn't give me enough options and I hated level ups because the way non signature spells work for them (having to learn the higher level version)

Not to mention one of the most defining items for casters, staves,I really didn't enjoy mechanically with spontaneous casters

If the DM at the time doesn't like giving information about upcoming encounters with proper investigation. Or the other players refuse to do so. I vastly prefer the actual play or the flexible caster archetype vs a spontaneous caster.

As much as staves suck for spontaneous, I think they should be worse for them compared to prepared

[Easl]

Given that there's players who like both, maybe one way Paizo can go in the future is to have (one or more) caster classes that allow the choice, i.e. as subclasses.

Though hearing metalmasters' request for a prepared cha caster, I suspect that the player base will complain until Paizo delivers the ability to select any combination of [Tradition] + [main Attribute] + [Spontaneous/Prepared] + [Feat progression]...which, honestly, they could do in a future edition. But that would be more of a "buy" system than a "class" system.