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Smooches, Unicore.
I read it.
1. But the remaster and new golems aren't available at this exact moment. 2. And some people may still use the old golems and Golem Antimagic even after the remaster is available.
3.But even with the current state of things, Kineticist isn't the problem that means that Steve steps out to grab a pizza during combat.
1. But they are. It's literally just taking the old golems, remove magic immunity, add resistance to spell damage (except X.) You can apply that to any previously published golem.
2. That's on them, frankly. Paizo is not going to alter an ability that no longer exists in their new canon. I don't know if they can even officially state the new conversion, because publishing official guidance on how to file the serial numbers off undercuts the legal defense that you aren't filing serial numbers off. But they have given us the fix we are going to get.
3. Agreed.
I read it.
But the remaster and new golems aren't available at this exact moment. And some people may still use the old golems and Golem Antimagic even after the remaster is available.
But even with the current state of things, Kineticist isn't the problem that means that Steve steps out to grab a pizza during combat.
Until there so I recommend to talk with the GM to prevent the usage of such creatures once they are already well-know to be able to disable an entire magical build making one or more party members practically useless if they don't have the correct preparation.
Anything that affects your final modifier for checks also affects the corresponding DC, iirc. There's a universal rule for that somewhere in the CRB.
On short notice, I am finding Calculating DCs.
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It's also much rarer to become drained compared to other conditions and to my knowledge only through failing fort saves.
And kineticists have the best fort saves bar none and early juggernaut.
Yep, drained is a less common condition in practice, so I think it pretty much evens out. You're more likely to take conditions which don't impact your to hit than other classes. And your skill checks won't suffer.
Be real nice if they fix golem antimagic and spell immune creatures to not turn casters or kineticists into wallflowers.Do people just like... Not read my posts? Am I that guy?
I read your post and the others. It's just a statement.
The remaster is not out yet, so you don't know what golems will look like after the remaster. They may change magic immunity to something else with exactly the same effect. How would I know at this point?
Maybe you have inside sources, I do not. So I don't know what golems in the Remaster will look like.
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Be real nice if they fix golem antimagic and spell immune creatures to not turn casters or kineticists into wallflowers.Do people just like... Not read my posts? Am I that guy?I read your post and the others. It's just a statement.
The remaster is not out yet, so you don't know what golems will look like after the remaster. They may change magic immunity to something else with exactly the same effect. How would I know at this point?
Maybe you have inside sources, I do not. So I don't know what golems in the Remaster will look like.
Did you read the Brass Bastion and compare it to the PF1 Brass Golem? Because it is pretty basic deduction from there.
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The comparison is this:
Brass Golem
vs
Bass Bastion
And as Captain Morgan said. Brass Bastion is basically the brass golem without the Golem Antimagic but with a Spell dmg resistance instead.
This probably is the new chassis for golems and probably the term golem was being abandoned.
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Did you read the Brass Bastion and compare it to the PF1 Brass Golem? Because it is pretty basic deduction from there.Be real nice if they fix golem antimagic and spell immune creatures to not turn casters or kineticists into wallflowers.Do people just like... Not read my posts? Am I that guy?I read your post and the others. It's just a statement.
The remaster is not out yet, so you don't know what golems will look like after the remaster. They may change magic immunity to something else with exactly the same effect. How would I know at this point?
Maybe you have inside sources, I do not. So I don't know what golems in the Remaster will look like.
I did not. Let me go look.
Oh, nice. I like that better. Not insurmountable, but still provides a solid resistance. Much easier to run. Not quite as scary for casters, but better than being able do nothing.
Thanks YuriP and Captain Morgan. That looks like a nice change.
Yeah we sort of settled this already. 99% likely to be settled in the remaster. And if you don't like that fix...I mean, really, what sort of monster are you? Golem antimagic is just DUMB.
Signs are that they will update it but they have missed the obvious before.
The problem with Golem AntiMagic is it lists particular spells, which is far too narrow for a game of PF2s size and expansiveness.
Some of those spells are getting remastered already so we can be confident they at least have to look at them.
They really need to bring it all back to the traits. They need to be clear between the difference betwenn immunity to effects and immunity to damage. They need to be crystal clear about what is an instance of damage, and what is additional damage.
I did want to bring up a kineticist issue...one of the funnier ones I've experienced in play (and this may also get fixed by the remaster) is that drained actually doesn't debuff your save DCs.
From the definition: "You take a status penalty equal to your drained value on Constitution-based checks, such as Fortitude saves."
Compare now to enfeebled: "When you are enfeebled, you take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Strength-based rolls and DCs, including Strength-based melee attack rolls, Strength-based damage rolls, and Athletics checks."
...or to clumsy: " You take a status penalty equal to the condition value to Dexterity-based checks and DCs, including AC, Reflex saves, ranged attack rolls, and skill checks using Acrobatics, Stealth, and Thievery."
...or to stupefied: "You take a status penalty equal to this value on Intelligence-, Wisdom-, and Charisma-based checks and DCs, including Will saving throws, spell attack rolls, spell DCs, and skill checks that use these ability scores."
More relevantly, there's the issue that drained is really hard to get rid of and that's excruciating for a Con-based class. So this may well be intentional to let you actually do something while drained, since no other class gets both the hp penalty from drained and an offensive penalty (stupefied, for instance, only penalizes your spell attacks and DCs, not your hit points....
I'd be happy for them to adjust the Drained condition.
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1. The Remaster project is being done to distance Pathfinder's new orc content from OGL content.
2. Golem antimagic is an undeniably OGL ability which defines golems as we have known them.
3. Ergo, it is consistent with Paizo's stated goals to get rid of golem antimagic, and possibly golems in general.
4. Rage of the Elements is a Remastered book.
5. Rage of the Elements contains the Bass Bastion.
6. Brass Bastion is undeniably a conversion of the Brass Golem.
7. The Brass Golem was created by Paizo for PF1, which means it was safer for them to convert to ORC than, say, a stone golem which originated in D&D.
8. The Brass Bastion has spell resistance equal to its physical resistance, except against water which the PF1 Brass Golem was weak against.
9. This solution protects Paizo legally, removes a problematic and difficult to adjudicate rule, and levels the fields between martials, casters, and kineticists.
If you can look at all those facts and not think it is extremely likely that this spell damage resistance will be replacing antimagic for any golems or pseudo-golems which are published from here on out, I would like you to be part of my Friday night Poker games.
Below this point, I'll be speculating more, but these are logical conclusions which will temper your expectations for monster core.
10. Paizo has stated they are more interested in creating new monsters than merely trying to replace every OGL monster, for both creative and legal reasons.
11. Ergo, we can safely assume they will not be Remastering all 17 golems published for PF2 so far.
12. Paizo has quietly given us the tools to convert every old golem on our own.
13. It seems likely that the word "golem" will not be used as freely as it was for OGL PF2, if it is used at all.
14. For legal purposes, Paizo may not want to publish an overt "conversion" manual like they did for PF1 to PF2 monsters. It weakens the case that the ORC golem analogues are their own thing.
15. Ergo, while we may see a few more pseudo golems in Monster Core, there's a decent chance our current status quo is about as much of an official patch to golem antimagic as we can expect.
Captain Morgan,
You wrote all that after YuriP already posted it and it has already been responded to?
Captain Morgan,
You wrote all that after YuriP already posted it and it has already been responded to?
I was addressing shroud at that point, essentially. My point was its not "one golem like creature," it is a preponderance of evidence. And I wanted there to be something laying out the whole case comprehensively.
... But maybe I went overboard.
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It's a testament of how well they did with the Kineticist that these are the major complaints being brought up vs fundamental balance issues or unintuitive feats.
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Right now, I'd change the Blast as follow.
- Air: 1d6 electricity, 60 feet
- Earth: 1d6 acid, 30 feet
- Fire: 1d6 fire, 60 feet
- Metal: 1d6 sonic, 30 feet
- Water: 1d6 cold, 30 feet
- Wood: 1d6 poison, 30 feet
1) Stop the Acid erasure, and Acid has been linked to Earth.
2) Stop the Sonic erasure, and Sonic as a result of resonance makes sense.
3) Nobody is gonna use vitality damage unless your character is in a zombie apocalypse.
4) Have a feat that give your Blast the Modular (B, P, S) trait. Seriously, make it LESS confusing, and for Fire, if people ask, you can cut and stab stuff with a blowtorch and the concept of "hard light" can apply to Fire.
5) Have Versatile Blast that give an alternate energy damage.
- Air: Cold (related to pressure)
- Earth: Poison (related to minerals)
- Fire: Cold (related to cold fire)
- Metal: Electricity (related to conductivity)
- Water: Acid (related to pollution/contamination)
- Wood: Vitality (related to life, and as an option)
In short, bring back the Physical/Energy Blast rules, or part of it.
Acid is totally available as a blast type to water kineticists, for the cost of a single level 1 feat. It may not be quite where you like it, but it's not "erasure".
Metal-lightning and Air-Sonic makes a fair bit more sense than the reverse.
Acid is totally available as a blast type to water kineticists, for the cost of a single level 1 feat. It may not be quite where you like it, but it's not "erasure".
I know that, I just add it in for completion, but seriously, is Acid THAT OP in P2E to NOT give it the same "treatment" as other energy types? I mean, we don't even have a cantrip that deals 1d6/acid per spell level, and have to manage with Acid Splash that deals 1d6s/acid per TWO spell levels, essentially.
Metal-lightning and Air-Sonic makes a fair bit more sense than the reverse.
Good point, although it was more by habit ^^;
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Right now, I'd change the Blast as follow.
- Air: 1d6 electricity, 60 feet
- Earth: 1d6 acid, 30 feet
- Fire: 1d6 fire, 60 feet
- Metal: 1d6 sonic, 30 feet
- Water: 1d6 cold, 30 feet
- Wood: 1d6 poison, 30 feet1) Stop the Acid erasure, and Acid has been linked to Earth.
2) Stop the Sonic erasure, and Sonic as a result of resonance makes sense.
3) Nobody is gonna use vitality damage unless your character is in a zombie apocalypse.
4) Have a feat that give your Blast the Modular (B, P, S) trait. Seriously, make it LESS confusing, and for Fire, if people ask, you can cut and stab stuff with a blowtorch and the concept of "hard light" can apply to Fire.
5) Have Versatile Blast that give an alternate energy damage.
- Air: Cold (related to pressure)
- Earth: Poison (related to minerals)
- Fire: Cold (related to cold fire)
- Metal: Electricity (related to conductivity)
- Water: Acid (related to pollution/contamination)
- Wood: Vitality (related to life, and as an option)In short, bring back the Physical/Energy Blast rules, or part of it.
That makes so many things worse.
1. You lowered the damage dice on the shorter range blasts.
2. You gave each blast only one damage type.
3. Acid and poison immunity are both common.
4. These combinations make less sense flavor wise. Throwing earth around should be throwing earth around, not acid.
5. Vitality damage is an extremely useful alternative damage type given how common undead are. It triggers weakness on zombies, but it also bypasses resistance on ghosts and skeletons.
You're trying to create equality for acid and sonic as though they were marginalized communities of actual people. They aren't. They are just damage types, and they don't make as much sense thematically or mechanically. There's no reason to make the class worse just to crowbar them in.
Actually, I don't think acid immunity is all that common? It's pretty reliable as a damage type. I wish earth got that from Versatile Blasts instead of poison, which basically nothing is weak to and only ever shows up as immunity (constructs and undead across the board especially).
Acid being the versatile blast element for water is kind of funny because there's barely anything that resists cold and bludgeoning that doesn't resist acid anyways.
I don't think versatile blast actually offers a lot of value unless your only elements are fire and/or metal, because cold and electric both generally cover their weak points. Weapon Infusion offering you 100' blast range and any physical damage type as needed is hard to compete with (though notably, it doesn't work with Two-Element infusion or the free blast from channeling, so)... actually, Versatile Two Element Blasts does offer some value for being able to match up damage types in certain combinations to make multiple sets of junctions apply without damage splits or anything.
Maybe I'm jaded from running Abomination Vaults, but acid immunity is pretty much a given on anything that deals acid damage on an unarmed attack. That includes pretty much all oozes, and an awful lot of abberations. Maybe those don't show as frequently in other adventures as they do in AV, but they aren't exactly rare creatures to fight.
But I do agree that weapon infusion is generally way better than versatile blasts.
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The status quo is being thrown out anyway. Golem antimagic is out, and will-o-wisps will likely be purged and replaced to.
In relation to this thread, the kineticist doesn't need to be fixed on these fronts. The monsters do, and by all accounts so far are.
Why would you assume Will-o-wisps would be purged? They are straight out of folklore and mostly match folklore. At best they need minor tweaks.
I'm pretty sure that Earth and Metal doing B/P and S/P damage was a deliberate choice which shouldn't be changed. After all, if you look at the impulses they're about "hitting people with rocks" or "stabbing people with shards of metal" so that's kind of what you're here for.
I don't think your elemental blast should be by default a different kind of damage than your damaging impulses. Earth is *supposed* to be the "Good ol' rock, nothing beats rock" element.
Why would you assume Will-o-wisps would be purged? They are straight out of folklore and mostly match folklore. At best they need minor tweaks.The status quo is being thrown out anyway. Golem antimagic is out, and will-o-wisps will likely be purged and replaced to.
In relation to this thread, the kineticist doesn't need to be fixed on these fronts. The monsters do, and by all accounts so far are.
For the same reason as golems. The monster name may not be a D&D original but the highly specific immunity to spells is. It goes back to at least D&D 2e. Plus Paizo already published a wisp fueled AP recently and would likely want a break from using them anyway.
That makes so many things worse.
1. You lowered the damage dice on the shorter range blasts.
That one... is on me ^^;
2. You gave each blast only one damage type.
That's the point, because Weapon Infusion basically gives you the Physical damage types, in addition of much better traits for ranged options. What's the point of having Physical damage types for normal blasts when a feat does it better?
3. Acid and poison immunity are both common.
Just like Fire and Cold, what's your point?
4. These combinations make less sense flavor wise. Throwing earth around should be throwing earth around, not acid.
Hmmm... I'm pretty sure that Acid and Earth were going hand-in-hand since D&D 3.0.
5. Vitality damage is an extremely useful alternative damage type given how common undead are. It triggers weakness on zombies, but it also bypasses resistance on ghosts and skeletons.
Dude, you have more chance of meeting goblins and kobolds than zombies and skeletons. Having a damage type that is EXCLUSIVE to a creature type is worse than having a damage type resisted by many.
You're trying to create equality for acid and sonic as though they were marginalized communities of actual people. They aren't. They are just damage types, and they don't make as much sense thematically or mechanically. There's no reason to make the class worse just to crowbar them in.
Fire, Cold, Electricity, Acid and Sonic were the 5 core energy types... but then Sonic was rarer due to not being resisted by many. In fact many Sonic-based spells are exclusive to the Occult list. Acid never received an equal treatment to Fire, when it should have.
If Impulses are like spells, can you use Reach Spell with impulses?
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It's a testament of how well they did with the Kineticist that these are the major complaints being brought up vs fundamental balance issues or unintuitive feats.
Wasn't Swashbuckler also fairly well received in the first few weeks or months after release?
If Impulses are like spells, can you use Reach Spell with impulses?
Probably not.
For one:
Impulses are magical, and though they aren't spells, some things that affect spells also affect impulses. Abilities that restrict you from casting spells (such as being polymorphed into a battle form) or protect against spells (such as a spell that protects against other spells or a creature's bonus to saves against spells) also apply to impulses.
That doesn't look like an example list to me. Those two interactions (abilities that restrict you from casting spells, and abilities that protect against spells) sound like the explicit list of interactions that treat impulses as though they are spells. Each of those interactions have an example list, but those two interactions are probably all that are intended.
Two: Reach Spell explicitly calls out the Cast a Spell activity by name. Activating an Impulse is not done using the Cast a Spell activity.
-----
That said, if you somehow got Reach Spell or certain other metamagic abilities I could see houseruling it so that it works.
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But I do agree that weapon infusion is generally way better than versatile blasts.
That really depends.
Weapon Infusion is an infusion. Versatile Blasts isn't. So when you're making your blast as its own action? Yeah. Weapon infusion every time. If you're running an overflow-heavy aura-light build, though, then the significant majority of your blasts are likely to be free action blasts off of your channel action, and weapon infusion does nothing for those.
I also like dual-element, it's solid when you're not making multiple attacks (so no need for agile) and using an element (say, fire) that gives you a bonus effect (like weakness) and another (say, earth) with a bigger damage die.
Also works well as the first blast of a set of multiple attacks. no reason you can't swap infusions after the first... though in that case it's worth considering whether reach or thrown might let you get in your strmod, and whether that might be worth doing instead.
For the same reason as golems. The monster name may not be a D&D original but the highly specific immunity to spells is. It goes back to at least D&D 2e. Plus Paizo already published a wisp fueled AP recently and would likely want a break from using them anyway.Why would you assume Will-o-wisps would be purged? They are straight out of folklore and mostly match folklore. At best they need minor tweaks.The status quo is being thrown out anyway. Golem antimagic is out, and will-o-wisps will likely be purged and replaced to.
In relation to this thread, the kineticist doesn't need to be fixed on these fronts. The monsters do, and by all accounts so far are.
DnD/Pathfinder Golems don't really have much to do with the golems of folklore. Only the clay golem actually draws from that lore...golems as magical constructs with weird weaknesses/immunities is a bit too WotC product identity
About the only weird DnDism is the idea they are abberations, when fey or undead would be more appropriate. although I imagine the immunities could also get reworked.
I think I like metal and wood best. They are very versatile elements.
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Metal has a lot of cool stuff but it also has a lot of really niche stuff. I think it'd be hard to build a satisfying mono or late-forking metal kineticist, but it works pretty well as something you pick up later or fork early.
For the same reason as golems. The monster name may not be a D&D original but the highly specific immunity to spells is. It goes back to at least D&D 2e. Plus Paizo already published a wisp fueled AP recently and would likely want a break from using them anyway.
It goes all the way back to the bad old days of AD&D 1st edition monster manual with the Clay, Flesh, Iron and Stone golem. They also had a chance of going berserk back then. AD&D had a lot of things that were meant to just hose the players.
The monsters themselves came from folklore, although there was little effort to keep it true to the sources.
Metal has a lot of cool stuff but it also has a lot of really niche stuff. I think it'd be hard to build a satisfying mono or late-forking metal kineticist, but it works pretty well as something you pick up later or fork early.
Dual Gate seems like an optimal build to me. I wouldn't spend much time with a Single Gate unless I don't plan to hit level 5 or better.
Cool Metal Impulses:
Plate in Treasure: Being able to give people whatever metal they need at a given time is pretty nice. Wish it was at range, but I guess it is innately a powerful ability.
Magnetic Pinions
Hell of a Million Needles
Scrap Wall
I like this class. I haven't had this much fun designing a character since my first druid.
I like the idea of going full single element but I don't feel that the feats for it really get there, counter element is nice when it comes up but it requiring the specific element trait limits it by a fair bit and makes it very variable across elements, composite impulse feat is nice for the choices in (although I personally feel there's a fair few composites that just aren't really worth it), the once a day elemental form just doesn't scale enough to really be worth it and the level 18 feat doesn't feel like it's worth giving up one or possibly both your level 18 impulses (both if you want to take the quickened feat at 20 since I imagine the one action reflow probably isn't too helpful when you've got just a single element), the level 18 and elemental form feats also haved the extra problem of just not working yet on Metal and Wood because they seemingly didn't think to print what those are for the core preview or in rage
Metal has a lot of cool stuff but it also has a lot of really niche stuff. I think it'd be hard to build a satisfying mono or late-forking metal kineticist, but it works pretty well as something you pick up later or fork early.Dual Gate seems like an optimal build to me. I wouldn't spend much time with a Single Gate unless I don't plan to hit level 5 or better.
Cool Metal Impulses:
Plate in Treasure: Being able to give people whatever metal they need at a given time is pretty nice. Wish it was at range, but I guess it is innately a powerful ability.
Magnetic Pinions
Hell of a Million Needles
Scrap WallI like this class. I haven't had this much fun designing a character since my first druid.
Strong agreement with all the impulses you just called out (less so magnetic pinions, but that's partially just because I've always been a fan of fire and partially because I'm allergic to 3-action overflow)-they're extremely awesome.
Where I personally think metal trips up is in its composites and auras/stances:
The aura is highly situational. Enemies with metal equipment are overrepresented in APs compared to the bestiaries, I have no doubt, but they're not omnipresent.
Magnetic field is even more situational, since they have to be wearing/made of metal rather than just carrying a metal sword.
Shattershields is hardly bad, but it's pretty much always worse than the bard's inspire defense , which is half the level, hits two or three times the area, gives a boost to saves and AC, and can be augmented with lingering composition to not eat your actions to refresh every round.
Then there's the composites:
Molten wire is good (I've been converted)
Lightning rod is in the running for "worst impulse in the game"
Whirling Grindstone is pretty awful without effortless impulse ("sharpen your sword"? With an INTERACT action that triggers AoO? It's not worth it),...
Metal and Wood both have nice abilities to work together.
Magnetic Pinions is nice because it's 1st level, can target 3 separate targets individually, and no increase in attack roll until done. I like having a multiple attack impulse that doesn't require I clear the area.
Fire is cool too, at least some of it. I feel like metal and wood combine for a great overall package. Fire and metal or wood probably not bad either.
You really can't go wrong with a dual gate. You can find something good on the lists.
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The level 18 Impulses are a hard choice. They have a lot of good ones.
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Okay, just to address a few points:
1) I'm not here to be negative. Did you not catch my first paragraph where I said I liked the class? These are just eratta stuff I think need to be taken care of.
2) Regarding Golems and Will-o-Wisps: The issue here is that there are already APs out that make extensive use of these two monsters.
Abomination Vaults is full of Will-O-Wisps and Extinction Curse has more than it's fair share of golems.
As such, the problem isn't 'what is Paizo going to do going forward' but 'what if our group wants to go back and play AP X with specific stats for a supergolem or super will-o-wisp? Giving the kinetisist A tool in their toolbox for dealing with golems or will-o-wisps is all I'm asking. It doesn't have to be the most powerful tool in their toolbox, just A tool.
The creators have said time and time again you can go back and use the old monsters, so even after monster core comes out this will be a problem.
3)Everyone complaining about damage types of the elements . . . you realize there's a fix for that right? Versatile blasts isn't even an infusion . . . it just gives you more options. Metal gets electricity, Earth gets poison (admittedly, not the best, but it is an energy type.) I know it's a feat but if you want to go full metal keneticist and want an energy blast, there's a literal fix at level 1. Just be a human to grab an extra class feat and grab it.
And for everyone complaining about wood and earth getting poison . . . what are the chances of running into a monster that is immune/resistant to Piercing/Bludgeoning AND Poison (or Bludgeoning/Vitality/Poison)? Only thing I can think of are like, clockwork constructs? Which generally have DR/adamantine which no martial is going to bypass either.