Kinetesist hype thread

[siegfriedliner]

So we are slowly making our way toward the big reveal of the 2e kinetesist which i have been looking forward to since the start of this edition.

My take from the playtest was that it was interesting and cool like the swashbuckler and like the swashbuckler it might not be that effective in practice.

But the post playtest post did fill me with increased confidence and I am very curious to see what they have come up with.

What are your hopes for the class and when do you plan to play it. I in a group that are talking about an all dwarf all kinetesist run of the sky kings ap.

[Totally Not Gorbacz]

Well, to begin with, the class is called Kineticist, not Kinetesist.

[Gaulin]

I am overly excited for the release, having a hard time waiting for sure. It's going to be a while before I can play a kineticist character proper, have to finish the campaign I'm playing in (were on book 6 but our group has a hard time meeting up for games lately). But I'm running AV as well, so I might just have a gmnpc kineticist join the group, at least for a while.

Very curious to see where the class lands in regards to damage. The water impulses we saw during paizocon were really cool enough damage to deal with a bunch of wheenies okay, but against things that resist your damage impulses I dont know how the class will fare. But there is so so much we don't know, I think because of the focus on the remaster we have gotten the least amount of info for a new class so close to release so far.

[aobst128]

Looking forward to it. I hope elemental weapon sticks around in some form.

[rainzax]

Definitely going to make a Dual Gate.

But which two elements?!?!

Aahhhh!!!

[siegfriedliner]

Totally Not Gorbacz wrote:

Well, to begin with, the class is called Kineticist, not Kinetesist.

I am one of those dyslexic people who can't tell my rouge from my rogue though I know one brings out the colour in my cheeks.

[Gaulin]

aobst128 wrote:

Looking forward to it. I hope elemental weapon sticks around in some form.

I can't remember where exactly but I think it's confirmed that elemental weapon is sticking around, though elemental blast is no longer based off of weapon proficiency. I'm curious about how a kineticists weapon and armor proficiencies will look though; with legendary class DC are they going to have more of a caster chassis with weapons/armor only going up to expert?

[Crouza]

I'm excited for the Kineticist from what I saw of the water path. It seems like they made the infusions feel better than they had initially been. Additionally, I feel like since they're looking about spells, focus spells, and cantrips for the remasters, they'll likely rebalance the kineticist damage wise to be a bit better.

What I really hope is that not everything they do has the manipulate trait. Having playtested the class in a dungeon with different types of enemies, it felt like it went overboard with manipulates. For example, the defensive "Raise AC by 2" shield block equivilent had the manipulate action. So you could get attacked, try to block, and provoke a full bonus AOO, get crit, and lose your shield block, then get hit by the atttack you were initially trying to lock. SO you could get double to quadruple the damage compared to just not using that infusion.

I have the upmost confidence that the class will have been much improved from the playtest. And if it isn't, we can always play the Kineticist-at-home that is the Psychic.

[gesalt]

The water feats weren't particularly inspiring, so I'm just hoping the others bring enough good stuff to the table that I can see them as more than their legendary class DC attached to a snarecrafter archetype.

[Gaulin]

Crouza wrote:

What I really hope is that not everything they do has the manipulate trait. Having playtested the class in a dungeon with different types of enemies, it felt like it went overboard with manipulates. For example, the defensive "Raise AC by 2" shield block equivilent had the manipulate action. So you could get attacked, try to block, and provoke a full bonus AOO, get crit, and lose your shield block, then get hit by the atttack you were initially trying to lock. SO you could get double to quadruple the damage compared to just not using that infusion.

We should be good on that front. The playtest retrospective said they would remove manipulate from overflow, and only add to some more powerful impulses. And if you look at the final version of the water impulses, you'll see some impulses that have both overflow and manipulate as a trait. Hopefully elemental blast gets the same treatment too.

[Themetricsystem]

I'm hoping they digested the playtest feedback that Blasts were powerful enough and that the Class in general had Action Economy and Hand-Tax issues.

I've said it before, if even the weakest Multiclass accessed K-Blast is not outperforming automatically Heightened Electric Arc then they will have failed.

[Gaulin]

The pictures from Logan holding up his copy of RoE were so blurry that we really shouldn't be basing anything off of them, but a lot of people have made out some clues to elemental blast. Again this could absolutely be wrong, but it seems like it's one or two actions, deals 1 damage dice at level 1 (increasing every 4 levels to an eventual total of 5 dice) and can be melee or ranged. Melee you add your strength mod to damage, and at two actions you add your con mod to damage. Damage dice and range differ per element, usually d6 or d8. I'm not great at math, I'm not sure how those numbers would stack up to electric arc (and there definitely could be other pieces to the puzzle) but it seems okay to me. At least the one action version, two action version there's gotta be something else to it.

[Crouza]

Gaulin wrote:

The pictures from Logan holding up his copy of RoE were so blurry that we really shouldn't be basing anything off of them, but a lot of people have made out some clues to elemental blast. Again this could absolutely be wrong, but it seems like it's one or two actions, deals 1 damage dice at level 1 (increasing every 4 levels to an eventual total of 5 dice) and can be melee or ranged. Melee you add your strength mod to damage, and at two actions you add your con mod to damage. Damage dice and range differ per element, usually d6 or d8. I'm not great at math, I'm not sure how those numbers would stack up to electric arc (and there definitely could be other pieces to the puzzle) but it seems okay to me. At least the one action version, two action version there's gotta be something else to it.

People use Electric Arc cause its the most damaging, but that's because it targets 2 targets at once. Blast is going to be a single target only attack, and should be compared to produce flame if anything imo. Impulses are going to be where we get multiple targets being hit and such.

[aobst128]

One other thing is it aught to have legendary class DC progression if they're getting rid of the martial chassis.

[Gaulin]

Crouza wrote:

Gaulin wrote:

The pictures from Logan holding up his copy of RoE were so blurry that we really shouldn't be basing anything off of them, but a lot of people have made out some clues to elemental blast. Again this could absolutely be wrong, but it seems like it's one or two actions, deals 1 damage dice at level 1 (increasing every 4 levels to an eventual total of 5 dice) and can be melee or ranged. Melee you add your strength mod to damage, and at two actions you add your con mod to damage. Damage dice and range differ per element, usually d6 or d8. I'm not great at math, I'm not sure how those numbers would stack up to electric arc (and there definitely could be other pieces to the puzzle) but it seems okay to me. At least the one action version, two action version there's gotta be something else to it.

People use Electric Arc cause its the most damaging, but that's because it targets 2 targets at once. Blast is going to be a single target only attack, and should be compared to produce flame if anything imo. Impulses are going to be where we get multiple targets being hit and such.

There's a few ways of looking at it. Some see anything less than electric arc, something that's super easy for a PC to get heir hands on through ancestry feats, just being a caster, feats, hell even items, as something that should not out damage a core feature of a class. Which is fair. Personally I get the feeling elemental blast will be less a core damage feature and more of a little extra oomph after an impulse. Kineticist could be really good at doing an attack roll and save targeting ability in the same turn.

Also from what we've seen of the water impulses, pretty much all the impulses have effects other than damage which is a little harder to quantify compared to just straight damage. Being able to make difficult terrain, fog clouds, pushing people all over the place, etc is more fun and dynamic than a couple extra damage dice sometimes (imo).

[Twiggies]

Mono element please be good! Skills please be decent! Aaaa HYPE

[_shredder_]

Besides an acid blast option, a class archetype that changes your KAS to a mental score is my biggest hope. Pathfinder 1 dark elementalist and psychokineticist were always so much cooler than than the normal kineticist to me.

[The Raven Black]

Seeing how KAS is an important part of a Class balance design, I feel having such a Class archetype would be complicated, to say the least. It would need almost redesigning the class from scratch.

[keftiu]

With the confirmation that we got pretty much every damage type I wanted for them, I'm giddy. Really tickled by the idea of both Cold Blasts on a Kitsune and Poison Blasts on a Nagaji or Vishkanya.

[BlueTuesday33]

It was on the discord that Logan mentioned that Kineticists aren't using handwraps for item bonus. I'm curious if they'll have something unique, or their blasts will work like lack an item bonus like spell attacks. They are getting legendary class dc, so that makes sense. They are also getting items to give item potency to their impulse attacks in the form of a new set of magic items that have once per day spells they can use. I think it was a +1 item that was available at lvl 13 or something?

[Perpdepog]

I hope we get some of the kineticist-specific items back, like the vril staff/hollow rod and the diadem. They should be much more affordable this time around and folks may use them more.

[aobst128]

If it's as accurate as spell attacks, that's a bit disappointing but it'll fit with the pseudo caster identity. A single action attack cantrip is a unique niche at least. Could possibly have some accuracy boosters built in through class feats too.

[Gaulin]

On Micheal Sayres ama during paizocon he told us there's items kineticist can get that give up to a +2 item bonus to blasts. So not only do we get legendary class DC but also a bump to 'spell' attack rolls as well! I think he also said the items give you element specific spell(s) you can cast like once per day but I don't remember that part well.

[Sanityfaerie]

Gaulin wrote:

On Micheal Sayres ama during paizocon he told us there's items kineticist can get that give up to a +2 item bonus to blasts. So not only do we get legendary class DC but also a bump to 'spell' attack rolls as well! I think he also said the items give you element specific spell(s) you can cast like once per day but I don't remember that part well.

I hope that there are options for getting our item boosts that don't give out one-per-day spells.

I mean, I'll take it if I have to, but I don't want to get any of that on me if I can avoid it, you know?

[Perpdepog]

Gaulin wrote:

On Micheal Sayres ama during paizocon he told us there's items kineticist can get that give up to a +2 item bonus to blasts. So not only do we get legendary class DC but also a bump to 'spell' attack rolls as well! I think he also said the items give you element specific spell(s) you can cast like once per day but I don't remember that part well.

That's cool. If it works the way you describe kinetisists will have items that are a half-step between a wand and a weapon; I like that a lot.

[Squiggit]

The Raven Black wrote:

Seeing how KAS is an important part of a Class balance design, I feel having such a Class archetype would be complicated, to say the least. It would need almost redesigning the class from scratch.

Would it? We have a gunslinger archetype that changes your KAS and all it really does is make the class worse.

Rogues even have a variable KAS based on their racket.

Not sure it's that big of a deal.

[Gaulin]

Here's what the quote from a kind soul on discord "Michael Sayre — Today at 2:27 PM
A two-action elemental blast adds your Con modifier to the damage.

Gate attenuators are a magic item for kineticists that act both add grant 1/day spells to the kineticist and give them up to a +2 item bonus to their impulse attack rolls."

[Squiggit]

Sounds like elemental weapon (assuming that option still exists) kineticists will have to be juggling two types of offensive upgrades? Hope attenuators aren't too expensive.

[Perpdepog]

Squiggit wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

Seeing how KAS is an important part of a Class balance design, I feel having such a Class archetype would be complicated, to say the least. It would need almost redesigning the class from scratch.

Would it? We have a gunslinger archetype that changes your KAS and all it really does is make the class worse.

Rogues even have a variable KAS based on their racket.

Not sure it's that big of a deal.

Yeah. I don't see why someone couldn't homebrew using a different stat for their CAS. Heck, wisdom wouldn't even be an upgrade necessarily since you're trading one save stat for another.

[gesalt]

Squiggit wrote:

Sounds like elemental weapon (assuming that option still exists) kineticists will have to be juggling two types of offensive upgrades? Hope attenuators aren't too expensive.

That or focus in on one element (or even just a single strong impulse) for anything with an attack roll and use the others purely for saves and utility.

[Gaulin]

I get the feeling that elemental weapon will be the kineticists meld into eidolon. Good for flavor, but mechanically lackluster and we'll have to wait for a class archetype or similar to really make that concept work.

[Verzen]

I am not feeling good about kineticist. From what it looks.like, 1d8 damage for water from 2d6 dmg.

The ONLY saving grace is if we had con to damage..I can deal with 1d8+4 dmg... thats 5-12 dmg or 8.5 avg dmg. Compared to 2d6 in the playtest which was 7 avg dmg.

But if they don't do that, that's 4.5 avg damage a whopping 2.5 less damage. Significantly weaker.

In comparison, electric arc deals 6.5 dmg to two targets. At level 1, kineticist might as well just use electric arc because it's stronger at that point which feels bad.

[Verzen]

Gaulin wrote:

I get the feeling that elemental weapon will be the kineticists meld into eidolon. Good for flavor, but mechanically lackluster and we'll have to wait for a class archetype or similar to really make that concept work.

Oh gawd I severely hope not. I hope paizo learned from their mistake with meld Eidolon. How long has it been now? And STILL no synthesis?

[BlueTuesday33]

Verzen wrote:

I am not feeling good about kineticist. From what it looks.like, 1d8 damage for water from 2d6 dmg.

The ONLY saving grace is if we had con to damage..I can deal with 1d8+4 dmg... thats 5-12 dmg or 8.5 avg dmg. Compared to 2d6 in the playtest which was 7 avg dmg.

But if they don't do that, that's 4.5 avg damage a whopping 2.5 less damage. Significantly weaker.

In comparison, electric arc deals 6.5 dmg to two targets. At level 1, kineticist might as well just use electric arc because it's stronger at that point which feels bad.

The base damage is worse, but the playtest version only scaled by 1d6 where this version scales by 1d8. So by lvl 5/7 it's already doing more damage than in the playtest. While it's not burning hands strong, it only costs actions to keep spamming

[Sanityfaerie]

Squiggit wrote:

Sounds like elemental weapon (assuming that option still exists) kineticists will have to be juggling two types of offensive upgrades? Hope attenuators aren't too expensive.

Or, alternately that there's some form of attenuator (or alternate item) that does both. If they're not using handwraps, and your weapon is a direct expression of your own elemental power, then....

[Verzen]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I am not feeling good about kineticist. From what it looks.like, 1d8 damage for water from 2d6 dmg.

The ONLY saving grace is if we had con to damage..I can deal with 1d8+4 dmg... thats 5-12 dmg or 8.5 avg dmg. Compared to 2d6 in the playtest which was 7 avg dmg.

But if they don't do that, that's 4.5 avg damage a whopping 2.5 lSynthesis?

Significantly weaker.

In comparison, electric arc deals 6.5 dmg to two targets. At level 1, kineticist might as well just use electric arc because it's stronger at that point which feels bad.

The base damage is worse, but the playtest version only scaled by 1d6 where this version scales by 1d8. So by lvl 5/7 it's already doing more damage than in the playtest. While it's not burning hands strong, it only costs actions to keep spamming

I'm looking at level 1 here. Not end game. If they give con to dmg for it, I'm all for that. Stats to damage is primarily for level 1s and almost negligible for level 20s.

[Verzen]

One thing I really hope for is earth being tanky. In PF1, Earth kineticist was extremely tanky. 2 dmg reduction at level 2 felt really good.

Earth kineticists in PF2 playtest didn't feel tanky. Other parts of them felt good such as being strength focused in terms of throwing Earth at people and some of the Earth skills were cool, but the defense felt less like Earth and more like expired Carbon Fiber being used on a submersible. Good in theory, but with disastrous results.

[Verzen]

Fire also needed a significant buff. Their abilities dealt like.. 1d6 dmg at lvl 1. They are suppose to be the most destructive, but their damage didn't exist.

I DO hope they keep the fire aura though. The automatic 1 or 2 damage a turn is very cool.

[BlueTuesday33]

I feel like comparing everything to Electric Arc isn't the best metric. Since at lvl 1 every caster should be spamming EA if there's at least two enemies close enough to each other, at least if we're just looking at raw damage. I know this has been discussed to death, but maybe EA is too strong compared to other cantrips/cantrip-like-abilities, at least at lvl 1? Or maybe other cantrips are just that lack luster. I haven't played enough spell casters to make that judgement.

[Verzen]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

I feel like comparing everything to Electric Arc isn't the best metric. Since at lvl 1 every caster should be spamming EA if there's at least two enemies close enough to each other, at least if we're just looking at raw damage. I know this has been discussed to death, but maybe EA is too strong compared to other cantrips/cantrip-like-abilities, at least at lvl 1? Or maybe other cantrips are just that lack luster. I haven't played enough spell casters to make that judgement.

EA is definitely too strong or others are too lack luster.

This might be one avenue that paizo is going to examine with the new book.

[Verzen]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

I feel like comparing everything to Electric Arc isn't the best metric. Since at lvl 1 every caster should be spamming EA if there's at least two enemies close enough to each other, at least if we're just looking at raw damage. I know this has been discussed to death, but maybe EA is too strong compared to other cantrips/cantrip-like-abilities, at least at lvl 1? Or maybe other cantrips are just that lack luster. I haven't played enough spell casters to make that judgement.

But I also think, EA being in its current state, and the fact anyone can get it, that means none of my abilities should be weaker than EA otherwise it causes people to just pick up EA at lvl 1 and use that instead of the abilities of the class.

[aobst128]

Verzen wrote:

I am not feeling good about kineticist. From what it looks.like, 1d8 damage for water from 2d6 dmg.

The ONLY saving grace is if we had con to damage..I can deal with 1d8+4 dmg... thats 5-12 dmg or 8.5 avg dmg. Compared to 2d6 in the playtest which was 7 avg dmg.

But if they don't do that, that's 4.5 avg damage a whopping 2.5 less damage. Significantly weaker.

In comparison, electric arc deals 6.5 dmg to two targets. At level 1, kineticist might as well just use electric arc because it's stronger at that point which feels bad.

Do you mean the blasts? Cause water was definitely a d8 in the playtest. They're roughly analogous to strikes so that fits at level 1.

[BlueTuesday33]

Not exactly the thread for it, but a homebrew I thought of is that EA only does stat damage to one of the targets, while the other is only effected by the d4s... though whenever I think of actually introducing it with my players I feel like it might make the spell too weak.

I do like the con to Elemental Blast idea in the book, lets ranged Kineticists get more consistent damage, but also if Elemental Blasts add strength to damage on melee attacks that could feel great in the early levels too where you can use a blast and impulse on the same turn. Hopefully there are action condensers to gather your element so it doesn't feel like an action tax, something like a gunslinger way's reload.

[BlueTuesday33]

BlueTuesday33 wrote:

Not exactly the thread for it, but a homebrew I thought of is that EA only does stat damage to one of the targets, while the other is only effected by the d4s... though whenever I think of actually introducing it with my players I feel like it might make the spell too weak.

I do like the con to Elemental Blast idea in the book, lets ranged Kineticists get more consistent damage, but also if Elemental Blasts add strength to damage on melee attacks that could feel great in the early levels too where you can use a blast and impulse on the same turn. Hopefully there are action condensers to gather your element so it doesn't feel like an action tax, something like a gunslinger way's reload.

Maybe we make EA into another variable action spell, with only the 3 action version adding your spellcasting stat to damage. Though that might just make it the best but also just feel bad to use too.

[Verzen]

aobst128 wrote:

Verzen wrote:

I am not feeling good about kineticist. From what it looks.like, 1d8 damage for water from 2d6 dmg.

The ONLY saving grace is if we had con to damage..I can deal with 1d8+4 dmg... thats 5-12 dmg or 8.5 avg dmg. Compared to 2d6 in the playtest which was 7 avg dmg.

But if they don't do that, that's 4.5 avg damage a whopping 2.5 less damage. Significantly weaker.

In comparison, electric arc deals 6.5 dmg to two targets. At level 1, kineticist might as well just use electric arc because it's stronger at that point which feels bad.

Do you mean the blasts? Cause water was definitely a d8 in the playtest. They're roughly analogous to strikes so that fits at level 1.

No. Tidal hands

[aobst128]

Probably should just shorten the distance between targets. Choose a target within 30 feet and then another one within 10 feet of the first target. Would keep its niche but limit its superiority over other options.

[25speedforseaweedleshy]

electric arc can do half damage to secondary target or something

if the focus point change does happen value of damage cantrip will drop a lot

caster will no longer live under the shadow of electric arc

[BlueTuesday33]

aobst128 wrote:

Probably should just shorten the distance between targets. Choose a target within 30 feet and then another one within 10 feet of the first target. Would keep its niche but limit its superiority over other options.

I really like that a lot, making it harder to trigger the bounce.

[BlueTuesday33]

I'm curious if the class will still have light armor prof only. Maybe elements like earth or metal could let them gain medium armor prof? It'll be hard to rationalize putting points into strength if you wanna keep Con and Dex high for your DC/AC, you could always go sentinel but it'd be great if that was within the class's chassis. Maybe a kinetic aura or stance like mountain stance could be fitting.

[Sanityfaerie]

I cannot prove it, but I seem to recall that they somewhere stated an intent to adjust up the other cantrips to make them more competitive by comparison... or at least do something similar. Casters overall have a bit of love coming, and that's an easy place to give some of it.

...and yes, baseline simplest-attack kineticist damage needs to be better than a cantrip. I'll agree with that wholeheartedly. It doesn't need to be all that much better, and I'm not asking for anything like "martials being martial" numbers (at least not without heavy investment) but it should be better than cantrips.

We'll see. I have faith.

I'm also very interested in the Elemental Instinct barbarian. I kind of have a feeling/hope/something that when people come to RoE with "Listen. All I really want to do is blast people with fire all day. Can you give me a kineticist who's good at blasting people with fire all day?" it's going to respond with "Oh! No, you don't want the kineticist. You want this classpath, over here."

...because, you know, it really wouldn't take much to turn a barbarian into the "powers up and throws acid/ice/fire/lightning/etc bolts for massive damage" class. Just give them a built-in elemental blast weapon like the beast instinct gets built-in natural claw/bite/horn/tongue weapons and pick up a set of handwraps on your way out.

They'd even still have space in there for a few nifty feats... because barbarian instincts generally get a few of those. Add in a few things like "I am surrounded at all times by a shield of (element) that hurts my enemies when they attack me" and you could feed that fantasy quite nicely.