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What if the proposed FoB improvement we are discussing quite simply removed the Flourish Trait from FoB?
Yes, it would lead to a TRULY spamable FoB but... isn't that what a true and iconic Flurry actually is? Yes, that leads to up to 6 attacks (without considering Haste or similar effects), and they will cap the MaP halfway through the second FoB but... who cares? Four out of the six attacks will be at the max MAP penalty, they'd need to eschew all mobility and do a pretty unsafe full attack routine to get that but it would also really push the ideal Class fantasy that seems to be what PF2 is going for, lots of attacks really fast. It would net more overall damage, and give them a bit of flexibility to decide to spend between 1-3 Actions on FoB and do whatever they like without being locked out of using a different abilities.
Also, it would incentivize taking OTHER Class Archetypes to access things that DO have the Flourish Trait to combine them together in ways that we haven't yet seen which from what I can tell is a big part of why the Monk doesn't really have a good reason for taking Martial Class MCA options and instead tends to lean into Spellcasting Archetypes since with FoB in the rotation there isn't really much benefit of them as the best stuff usually has Flourish attached.
Thoughts?
So we're going for True Flurry Of Misses, then?
"Flurry doesn't flourish" combined with "crits don't increase MAP" could be fun.
Since like I'm not going to sign up to make extra -8 attacks, but other smaller penalties are fine.
Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.
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No matter if it's mechanically balanced or not, too many attacks bog down the game.
Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.
Why is making a big pile of -8 attacks something you'd want to do?
Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.Why is making a big pile of -8 attacks something you'd want to do?
Things can get real crazy at higher levels with Warden's Boon, Agile Grace and damage buffs.
Regardless, it's not the type of direction the monk needs to take, imo. I think it should have more interesting ways to deal damage rather than just using FoB more (which is what happens with Monks in 5e, they attack more doing the same damage).
For a barrage of attacks, I think we should be looking at abilities already existing in the game, such as Impossible Flurry or Draconic Frenzy.
I think it would be interesting to have Flurry of Blows take two actions, but with a spread of +0/-5/-5/-5 (Alternative: 0/0/-5). It makes a good option for situations where high damage is paramount, but it still clunky enough to not be the go to every single round. What I have in mind is improving FoB with already existing mechanics, while keeping in mind that Stances offer 2-Action special attacks that need to remain competitive, otherwise there's only illusion of choice.
Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.Why is making a big pile of -8 attacks something you'd want to do?
It depends on your target to hit number. If a 10 hits, an attack at -8 is still one third the value of a full strike. That might be worth it. If a 13 is what you need to hit, it is just one eighth. So maybe not.
Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.Why is making a big pile of -8 attacks something you'd want to do?
Because monks are action efficient and damage is damage. -8 isn't great, but two-for-one is still a good deal and leaves it reasonably competitive with other second-action options (and better than most third action attack routines).
It also means an additional chance to trigger stunning strike in a combat (two extra chances, if you're going all in).
As LR said, it's also bad because it becomes a too-easy way to fill in action economy gaps, when we already know from experience that classes that can easily fill up all three actions tend to be more boring.
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The builds (not the classes) that are most boring are those where you will use a given routine almost every round of every combat. Because it is far better than alternatives. And IME this can happen with any class.
Now, having combat encounters that all look the same and enemies that only do 3 strikes doesn't help.
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Flurry of Blow with no Flourish would be too insane.Why is making a big pile of -8 attacks something you'd want to do?
I wouldn't want to do that.
My preferred fix for the monk are one of the following options:
1. Upgrade flurry of blows to a reduced attack roll or no MAP at level 11 or so.
2. Upgrade Ki Strike to last for a minute at level 11 or so per focus point use as well as the damage upgrades. Make Ki Strike an innate class focus spell like Lay on Hands.
3. Legendary Unarmed Strike proficiency at level 13 or so with Unarmed strike proficiency upgrading at a faster rate like a fighter starting at expert.
That would all still integrate well with feat chains and fighting styles of monks, while providing enough of a damage upgrade to make the monk more competitive as a main martial.
The monk doesn't need a whole lot to make it on par. Mainly a damage upgrade in some fashion when other martial classes start receiving their damage upgrades at around level 11 to 13.
With the purported changes to focus and regaining charges, making Ki Strike last for 1 minute seems like it could really be the way to go. Every fight the monk would spend 1 focus point for tapping into Ki Strike, but the feat would also go from meh to required because of how effective it would be. But that might be the precise way to give monk the oomph it needs without changing things too much. But it needs to be an upgrade that others can't access with multiclassing.
With the purported changes to focus and regaining charges, making Ki Strike last for 1 minute seems like it could really be the way to go. Every fight the monk would spend 1 focus point for tapping into Ki Strike, but the feat would also go from meh to required because of how effective it would be. But that might be the precise way to give monk the oomph it needs without changing things too much. But it needs to be an upgrade that others can't access with multiclassing.
1 Minute Ki Strike seems to be a bit too much. It's not like the class is being egregiously bad at dealing damage. The current issue is that it lacks more avenues of offensive capabilities. I think we should be striving for more flavor, rather than raw damage.
Raw damage always lead to mandatory feats. 1-minute Ki Strike is a no-brainer. It would change the Focus Spell into easy raw damage that's better than the vast majority of Focus Spells in the game.
Just having a quality of life improvement would be great, imo. Such as lasting until you hit (Single attack or FoB). Maybe turn it into a free action and the buff lasts until the end of the round (thus enabling it to work with all offensive abilities, like Tiger Slash, One-Inch Punch, etc).
Also, I suspect that Ki will get getting a minor buff in the remake because it can deal alignment damage, which can probably be changed into Spirit Damage (which I hope will mean more effectiveness against incorporeal creatures, encounters that always suck).
I should trial a build for the remaster that runs 3x ki strike with heaven's thunder or psi strikes and sneak attack. It's one thing when you can barely use it once a combat, but something else entirely when you can press that button over and over assuming they can get that full refocus feat in a timely manner.
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Also, I suspect that Ki will get getting a minor buff in the remake because it can deal alignment damage, which can probably be changed into Spirit Damage (which I hope will mean more effectiveness against incorporeal creatures, encounters that always suck).You can already choose Force damage with Ki Strike, so this would change next to nothing.
What about giving Monks a lvl 12-14 (so no other class can multiclass into it) class feat that would restore a focus point on a critical hit? This would make a Monk who is centered around focus usage unique compared to other classes but still keep him at bay thanks to his basic martial proficiency.
This is the best suggestion I have seen thus far for the Monk. A feat that regains a focus point after a crit hit on an unarmed strike would be a neat feat that would allow the monk to do more "burn a bunch of Focus points early, and then try to earn them back. Many PF2 fights are in the 3 to 4 rounds range, so it wouldn't be a mandatory feat for anyone that was just planning on using Ki strike once per round for 3 rounds, but if you wanted to be able to frequently Ki Rush, then Ki Strike round 1, then it would be nice, and it would also be nice for monks who play in campaigns that regularly have wave encounters that might last 8 or 10 turns.
I think the damage focused monk is intended to be a Ki using monk, so I don't think the damage boosting options need to come from a source outside of Ki spells.
There is a stance oriented monk build that gets interesting with the level 10 Prevailing position feat, that is more of a defensive build monk. A +4 circumstance bonus to either AC or Reflex vs the triggering attack is almost ridiculous for tanky it can make a monk in a fight vs a solo monster. A follow up feat that does something interesting every time you enter a stance could be a cool way to support that. Like if mountain quake triggered automatically but only when you entered Mountain stance, and other stances had other abilities that trigger when you entered a stance, I think it would present a cool parallel and interlinking track to Ki spells.
With the purported changes to focus and regaining charges, making Ki Strike last for 1 minute seems like it could really be the way to go. Every fight the monk would spend 1 focus point for tapping into Ki Strike, but the feat would also go from meh to required because of how effective it would be. But that might be the precise way to give monk the oomph it needs without changing things too much. But it needs to be an upgrade that others can't access with multiclassing.1 Minute Ki Strike seems to be a bit too much. It's not like the class is being egregiously bad at dealing damage. The current issue is that it lacks more avenues of offensive capabilities. I think we should be striving for more flavor, rather than raw damage.
Raw damage always lead to mandatory feats. 1-minute Ki Strike is a no-brainer. It would change the Focus Spell into easy raw damage that's better than the vast majority of Focus Spells in the game.
Just having a quality of life improvement would be great, imo. Such as lasting until you hit (Single attack or FoB). Maybe turn it into a free action and the buff lasts until the end of the round (thus enabling it to work with all offensive abilities, like Tiger Slash, One-Inch Punch, etc).
Also, I suspect that Ki will get getting a minor buff in the remake because it can deal alignment damage, which can probably be changed into Spirit Damage (which I hope will mean more effectiveness against incorporeal creatures, encounters that always suck).
Past level 11, the damage difference starts to get egregious.
Monks don't feel too bad up to around then, but after that level when every other class starts to receive serious damage upgrades to their class damage abilities the monk starts to fall off. That is why I'm recommending around level 11 to 13.
Most of the other classes get their upgrades in that 10 to 13 range when either feats improve their damage dealing (fighter, rogue) or greater specialization improves it (barbarian) or some other part of their class.
For some reason and I'm not sure why, the monk was left out of the damage boosting of whatever Paizo considers their key damage boosting ability in that same range. I'm going with Flurry because Gortle believes that was Paizo's key damage booster for the monk.
The monk is kind of an odd class in that it gets some different abilities to do the job, none of them getting enough of an upgrade at level 10 or so put them on par with other martials:
1. Flurry they get early which allows them to do more with a 1 action attack like a ranger. Even the melee ranger gets a flurry reduction upgrade eventually to make that flurry ranger more viable.
2. Ki Strike, which is optional, and a rather weak damage upgrade due to its duration. One flurry is two attacks, which is nothing compared to what other classes do past level 10.
3. Ki Blast: This is a fairly powerful AoE spell, but sketchy to use single target. It's mostly useful on mooks because the way they built the monk Spell DC would make the roll fairly low even it maxes at Master and the monk is way too MAD to focus heavily on the spellcasting stat of the class due to it being Wisdom.
Monk has always suffered from MAD. It is less now, but with its spellcasting suffering from MAD this once again causes its effectiveness to suffer.
You could also make its main ki spell ability it's key ability which would also help some.
I mean, having more than 2 stances before level 4 isn't easy anyway for a monk and means passing on a lot of iconic monk things. I don't think the switching stance feat really need to come online before level 8 to 10, which is where they come online now. A level 10 feat is un-poachable enough for class identity. Another class picking up a level 10 feat at level 20 is a massive power hit. Level 20 feats are way more gonzo powerful than level 10 feats.
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Multiple stances doesn't boost damage, so not sure why people want that. It's a cool style thing, but it should probably be an innate monk ability than something they have to spend feats on considering it is such a minor, almost insignificant power boost.
Multiple stances doesn't boost damage, so not sure why people want that. It's a cool style thing, but it should probably be an innate monk ability than something they have to spend feats on considering it is such a minor, almost insignificant power boost.
I'm with Deriven Firelion on this and I agree with his assessment that FoB be one of the main things that gets tweaked. Something like a level 7 class feature that mimics Flurry Ranger in that FoB MAP is –3 (–2 with an agile weapon) on the second attack. Then at level 1 the class feature upgrades so that both attacks in FoB use the current MAP.
Multiple stances doesn't boost damage, so not sure why people want that. It's a cool style thing, but it should probably be an innate monk ability than something they have to spend feats on considering it is such a minor, almost insignificant power boost.I'm with Deriven Firelion on this and I agree with his assessment that FoB be one of the main things that gets tweaked. Something like a level 7 class feature that mimics Flurry Ranger in that FoB MAP is –3 (–2 with an agile weapon) on the second attack. Then at level 1 the class feature upgrades so that both attacks in FoB use the current MAP.
Sorry I meant level 11 not level 1 for both FOB attacks to use current MAP
So, without getting prescriptive:
There's general agreement that the biggest issues with the Monk right now are power budget comes in too frontloaded, so other classes can poach it easily.
But even if it's frontloaded, the early level power from Stances/FoB only leaves it up to parity with other classes early on, and there's no late-game power spikes of note.
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Mostly yeah.
As an addendum I'd add that part of the problem is that monks' power budget is tied up in ancillary abilities that are hard to judge (and, frankly, aren't often easy to utilize in published adventures) like their ability to bypass all material weakness or some of their unique mobility feats.
They also have some chassis jank, between having one of their saves never improve, having to buy crit spec, being one of only a few martials with t/e perception, and so on, that sort of contribute to a sense of weirdness.
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So, without getting prescriptive:
There's general agreement that the biggest issues with the Monk right now are power budget comes in too frontloaded, so other classes can poach it easily.
But even if it's frontloaded, the early level power from Stances/FoB only leaves it up to parity with other classes early on, and there's no late-game power spikes of note.
That and the hyper focus on Mobility options both early and at higher levels. Also, the lack of upgrade to damage is also problematic (should be something added to the chassis, rather than an upgraded class feat).
Furthermore, I really think the class shouldn't pay for Critical Specialization on Unarmed Attacks and proficiency Monastic Weapons (the monastic weapon feat branch should offer more interesting feats than just starting as a tax feat to use worse weapons and access to the wishy-washy Peafowl Stance).
Adding these minor changes with combining the mobility feats with minor benefits like Guarded Movement, Dancing Leaf, Wall Run and Water Step into less Feats that do more will go along way.
We shouldn't forget that given the alignment changes, I think it's a good time to take a second look into the Ki Strike "enhancement" feats. They're really boring. Feats like Elemental Ki and Sacred Ki should not be separated and should change Ki Strike in some way, Entwined Energy Ki should be far more interesting and useful. Paizo really overrated the ability to chose elements in a game where Resistances and Weaknesses aren't as prevalent AND it's gated behind an action that requires a success AND it can only be activated by spending Focus Points (limited resource).
Wait, a game where resistances and weaknesses aren’t as prevalent? As what game? Resistances and weaknesses mater way more in PF2 than PF1. In PF1 bypassing resistances was trivially easy. Resistances and weaknesses are much more intentionally utilized in PF2, and it seems likely they will lean into that more with the monster core than with OGL monsters.
Lawful has not been a useful damage type in PF2, but spirit damage will probably be a pretty decent one and force is always useful.
I think the monks ease of access to focus points is going to make focus power feats inherently the stronger build path unless they are given something new as well, but I doubt the entire class chassis is overhauled at this point.
Wait, a game where resistances and weaknesses aren’t as prevalent? As what game? Resistances and weaknesses mater way more in PF2 than PF1. In PF1 bypassing resistances was trivially easy. Resistances and weaknesses are much more intentionally utilized in PF2, and it seems likely they will lean into that more with the monster core than with OGL monsters.
Lawful has not been a useful damage type in PF2, but spirit damage will probably be a pretty decent one and force is always useful.
I think the monks ease of access to focus points is going to make focus power feats inherently the stronger build path unless they are given something new as well, but I doubt the entire class chassis is overhauled at this point.
Resistances and weaknesses aren't make or break. If you never have them, you'll never notice. They make for a nice additional bit of damage here and there, but are not essential to maximizing damage.
Focus points are only as good as the powers you can use them with and the monks main damage booster Ki Strike is extremely weak compared to other class damage boosters.
No one is asking for a complete overhaul. Monk is 90% fine.
Main problem is they don't get the damage boost every other class gets around level 10 to 15 or so, which drops their value as a martial down as martials are damage focused for build options.
Boosting the monk is just finding a way to take one of their existing abilities and make it on par with other martial damage boosting abilities in that level 10 to 15 range where feats like Combat Reflexes and improved debilitations or greater specialization rage comes in.
A complete overhaul is unnecessary, though it does kind of suck a level 1 spell steals their Mobility for most fight durations. But monks can live with that since their mobility is always active.
Wait, a game where resistances and weaknesses aren’t as prevalent? As what game? Resistances and weaknesses mater way more in PF2 than PF1. In PF1 bypassing resistances was trivially easy. Resistances and weaknesses are much more intentionally utilized in PF2, and it seems likely they will lean into that more with the monster core than with OGL monsters.
Lawful has not been a useful damage type in PF2, but spirit damage will probably be a pretty decent one and force is always useful.
I think the monks ease of access to focus points is going to make focus power feats inherently the stronger build path unless they are given something new as well, but I doubt the entire class chassis is overhauled at this point.
I meant only that Resistances and Weaknesses aren't that common in encounters (as far as my experience from the playtest until know) and are hard to exploit because you need to know such a thing is available in the first place, which means an action and a successful Recall knowledge. I know that when they're available, they're impactful. But, my point is that there are way too many feats on this archetype that do nothing but offer some minor damage type change that won't matter most of the time, which makes them far less attractive than their peers even for Monks going down that path. They either need to do more or need to be conflated. That's all I'm saying.
I only wish for the monk to be renamed as "martial artist" and then start to work from that point. Would be cool then to gain extra flavour options based on their martial school and (why not) dream even further, a future book full of fluff and crunch, just the way I like my ice cream.
Your typical shaolin monk good with weapons, a karateka good with parries and counters, a cappoeira dancer that is inmune to prone condition and can even fight better if prone, a more "mystical" focused that can go full nova spending those ki points into a awesome hadouken... just to name a few.
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I only wish for the monk to be renamed as "martial artist" and then start to work from that point. Would be cool then to gain extra flavour options based on their martial school and (why not) dream even further, a future book full of fluff and crunch, just the way I like my ice cream.
Your typical shaolin monk good with weapons, a karateka good with parries and counters, a cappoeira dancer that is inmune to prone condition and can even fight better if prone, a more "mystical" focused that can go full nova spending those ki points into a awesome hadouken... just to name a few.
There were so many sacred cows that Paizo could sacrifice in the transition from PF1e to PF2e. Since the Champion was readily accepted, I don't think in the future changing Monks (and Barbarians) is on the table.
Regardless of the nomenclature, PF2e's Monk is a really amazing class with lots of flavorful feats. Despite the criticisms thrown around here and the myriad of possibilities discussed, the class still does what it sets out to do quite well.
Monks only need refinement. Taking advantage of the current design mastery of the devs is a no-brainer. I mean, they would already do that eventually since they announced Errata twice per year.
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Regardless of the nomenclature, PF2e's Monk is a really amazing class with lots of flavorful feats. Despite the criticisms thrown around here and the myriad of possibilities discussed, the class still does what it sets out to do quite well.
Monks only need refinement.
Totally it is a good fun class that works reasonably well. It even has a couple of features that are super strong.
But it isn't quite right. It needs a boost to protect it's niche at level 10ish so it isn't ravaged by the Fighter. Making Agile Grace a Monk feat would almost do it.
Yep. If you never played a monk past level 10, you'd probably feel just fine. I know I did. My damage was good enough and I had fun with the class. But that level 10 demarcation is when you start getting lapped by other classes.
Rogue is doing Opportune Riposte with Precise or Bully Debilitations and rising sneak attack, the barb gets the big rage boost up and starts using Whirlwind strike, and the fighter get Combat Reflexes combined with Legendary proficiency and the Magus gets a greater striking rune and their cantrips get stronger with feats like Striker's Scroll with access to higher level spells, you start feeling like the FoB is a peashooter.
All your damage and key abilities are front-loaded. It's like the designers forgot to scale the monk up better after level 10.
Ranger suffers from a similar problem, but for a different reason having to do with the Hunt Prey action tax. The Swashbuckler the same with the panache generation problem. Though I've been playing a dual class bard/swashbuckler. Boy, that One for All is ridiculous. Bard/Wit Swashbuckler combines like peanut butter and jelly. Makes the bard way more fun to play and the swashbuckler way more fun to play.
The Monk does have another offensive ability. Stunning Fist. It scales and remains relevant. Stunning your opponent is very good and has real value at high level. It is just as a level 2 feat so
a) it is easy to poach unlike every other class's best feature and
b) people miss it.
The Monk does have another offensive ability. Stunning Fist. It scales and remains relevant. Stunning your opponent is very good and has real value at high level. It is just as a level 2 feat so
a) it is easy to poach unlike every other class's best feature and
b) people miss it.
I've taken stunning blow. It's good against mooks, mixed bag against bosses. Doesn't add to damage and is more a control power. The save makes it tough to land as you're often landing one strike at best against bosses if your first action isn't a trip. I like to set my monks up for the first attack action to be a trip to better set up the rest of my attacks. So stunning blow wasn't integrating well into that process against the most important fights.
Debilitating Shot is better against bosses. No save, automatic slow with damage. It's like casting a slow spell and doing damage with a 2 action activity.
No, I'm not saying Stunning Fist is terrible. I don't think it is great either. It's one of those things when it lands, cool, but don't expect it to land in the toughest fights and there are other tactics involving trip you may want to try first to synergize with your other abilities and the party.
Let me see if I run Stunned right according to the forum:
Stunned does not impose the flat-footed condition.
Stunned does not reduced AC at all.
Stunned prevents an opponent from taking any reactions or using any abilities including free actions until they regain their actions at the start of their turn which is reduced by the stunned amount.
I've been running it this way which makes trip generally more valuable to the group than focusing on Flurry of Blows for stun. Thus my first attack after I picked up Flurry of Maneuvers is almost focused on getting a trip.
I think the Barbarian and Monk names will not survive the printing of Pathfinder 3rd edition whenever that is.
I don't think name changes are on the table for the Remaster, since one of the premises of the remaster is "compatibility with all previously printed Pathfinder 2e material." So since there are feats with the "Monk" trait in APs, Lost Omens, and Rulebook line books meaning "these are feats for the Monk class." So renaming the class has some awkward interactions.
Yep. If you never played a monk past level 10, you'd probably feel just fine. I know I did. My damage was good enough and I had fun with the class. But that level 10 demarcation is when you start getting lapped by other classes.
Rogue is doing Opportune Riposte with Precise or Bully Debilitations and rising sneak attack, the barb gets the big rage boost up and starts using Whirlwind strike, and the fighter get Combat Reflexes combined with Legendary proficiency and the Magus gets a greater striking rune and their cantrips get stronger with feats like Striker's Scroll with access to higher level spells, you start feeling like the FoB is a peashooter.
All your damage and key abilities are front-loaded. It's like the designers forgot to scale the monk up better after level 10.
Ranger suffers from a similar problem, but for a different reason having to do with the Hunt Prey action tax. The Swashbuckler the same with the panache generation problem. Though I've been playing a dual class bard/swashbuckler. Boy, that One for All is ridiculous. Bard/Wit Swashbuckler combines like peanut butter and jelly. Makes the bard way more fun to play and the swashbuckler way more fun to play.
I played a Monk past level 11 in Age of Ashes, no less. I think my best play ever was with my Tiger Monk. I took down five enemies by myself after a drawn out battle that was worth more than 200XP. I was dealing a lot decent damage and abusing my hyper mobility (Tiger's 10ft Step + Winding Flow was crazy) to kill the enemies, four were lower leveled (I think level 8 or 9) and a leader-type enemy (level 10). Stunning Fist, Assurance (Athletics) to trip and Winding Flow. I had 50-ish HP, the enemies were completely healthy, I finished the fight with 19 because I had decent AC and was forcing them to attack me at most one time and without flanking (all of them had a lot of rogue benefits).
While the class definitely won't break any benchmarks on damage, it's main strength is in the action economy, that will make your turns very reliable since you get good movement and two guaranteed attacks, at least. While other classes may struggle far more with the minutiae of Striding and moving around the battlefield and being unable to use their features.
I still firmly agree they need a boost, though. There's no question about it. One of the things that frustrated me the most was having sessions where I only hit one strike from FoB. That was freaking annoying and it happened consistently (probably because of the AP and my team's lack of good coordination).
I feel your frustration, LR.
Monk wasn't a terrible experience. My fellow PCs love the monk because I do the trips for the fighter, rogue, and archer. The monk sets up flanking great in three dimensions with mobility and flight. And my damage seemed fine until Greater Striking runes and every other class started getting their big damage enhancers.
I don't mind doing the trips and being Mr. Maneuver, but I don't like watching these other classes destroying things while I'm using the same attack sequences I was using at level 1 to 4 at level 15 and up. That makes you scratch your head and wonder when I dropped off the cliff and why I don't have any feats or damage enhancers I can take to get back on par.
The feats give you variation, but variation is not increased effectiveness aka damage. The monk needs some increased effectiveness to at least stay where they were in the earlier levels when all the other abilities are accounted for.
I think the Barbarian and Monk names will not survive the printing of Pathfinder 3rd edition whenever that is.
I don't think name changes are on the table for the Remaster, since one of the premises of the remaster is "compatibility with all previously printed Pathfinder 2e material." So since there are feats with the "Monk" trait in APs, Lost Omens, and Rulebook line books meaning "these are feats for the Monk class." So renaming the class has some awkward interactions.
So does stuff like "Magic Missile" and the devs will have zero compunction in renaming those.
I'm all for renaming the class to Martial Artist, which will finally remove the mystical and monastic part as mandatory to the class fantasy and make it optional, hence we can play characters like Jackie Chan characters or Donny Yens Ip Man.
I was hoping for this during 1E already, but the Brawler class and Martial Artist archetype for the Monk were both a bit disappointing.
I think one of the monks built in damage buffs is getting unarmed attacks that are silver, cold Iron and Admantine. At higher levels that is not infrequently going to be a plus 10 to 20 damage between resistances and weaknesses, and is 15k of gold for free.
Also, it seems strange to decry the damage output of a monk build that is making a trip attack with a first attack every round. Like I get how good control is, so I am not disrespecting the build, but building to trip first and then flurry with Map kicking in isn’t a damage first build. Of course it feels flatter at higher levels when you are using a D8 and minimizing your chances to get critical hits, adding on the deadly die.
The well built dragon monk has probably picked up dread striker and will be attacking a frightened, flat-footed enemy with D10s and a +4 circumstance damage bonus. A deadly d12 on top of that is pretty top end.
I think one of the monks built in damage buffs is getting unarmed attacks that are silver, cold Iron and Admantine. At higher levels that is not infrequently going to be a plus 10 to 20 damage between resistances and weaknesses, and is 15k of gold for free.
Also, it seems strange to decry the damage output of a monk build that is making a trip attack with a first attack every round. Like I get how good control is, so I am not disrespecting the build, but building to trip first and then flurry with Map kicking in isn’t a damage first build. Of course it feels flatter at higher levels when you are using a D8 and minimizing your chances to get critical hits, adding on the deadly die.
The well built dragon monk has probably picked up dread striker and will be attacking a frightened, flat-footed enemy with D10s and a +4 circumstance damage bonus. A deadly d12 on top of that is pretty top end.
The silver, cold iron, and adamantine is so a monk can still use unarmed strikes without having to buy weapons to do it. It's not a major part of the damage equation and isn't in the control of the monk.
My fighter does a trip attack with no MAP and sometimes on a critical hit. So not sure what you're talking about. Trip isn't that hard. You could build a wizard to trip people if you wanted to.
I'm talking about that particular group where I'm doing a trip on my first attack with MAP. The fighter likes it so he can play a sword fighter and not use Knockdown feat.
The numbers clearly show the monk behind. You keep making it sound like a level 20 monk with Dragon Style with Golden Body and d12 deadly will compete because you don't seem to know what other classes are doing.
At level 20 the fighter is getting AoOs on every opponent turn.
The barbarian has 10 damage resistance, maxed out rage, and is using Whirlwind attack to hit everyone with the same MAP in reach.
The rogue is doing 6d6 sneak attack on every hit along with debilitations and turning invisible where you can't even see him with see invis or true seeing.
No matter how you try to paint the monk, other classes get more as they level.
The silver, cold iron, and adamantine is so a monk can still use unarmed strikes without having to buy weapons to do it. It's not a major part of the damage equation and isn't in the control of the monk.
While I agree it's problematic because the monk can't control it, it's incorrect to say it's not a major factor. When you get to benefit from special materials, it's often comparable or better than class-based damage modifiers, and monks can benefit from special materials more easily than any other class in the game.
A level 11 demon has weakness 10 to cold iron. That's giant instinct rage without the AC penalty, and something that's comparatively more difficult for normal martials to do because keeping materials up to date is awful.
Given how much Paizo likes esoteric, situational modifiers, they almost certainly factored this pretty heavily into the monk's power budget, because when it works it is significant.
The silver, cold iron, and adamantine is so a monk can still use unarmed strikes without having to buy weapons to do it. It's not a major part of the damage equation and isn't in the control of the monk.While I agree it's problematic because the monk can't control it, it's incorrect to say it's not a major factor. When you get to benefit from special materials, it's often comparable or better than class-based damage modifiers, and monks can benefit from special materials more easily than any other class in the game.
A level 11 demon has weakness 10 to cold iron. That's giant instinct rage without the AC penalty, and something that's comparatively more difficult for normal martials to do because keeping materials up to date is awful.
Given how much Paizo likes esoteric, situational modifiers, they almost certainly factored this pretty heavily into the monk's power budget, because when it works it is significant.
I don't think power budgets exist myself. It looks like nothing more than a port over from the PF1 monk for the same reason it was done in PF1: allow the monk to have access to special materials with unarmed strikes for style reasons.
Once the monk reaches the right level, sure, they have easier access. Prior to that they do not have easier access. It is not controllable damage, it happenstance damage. It's like saying that part of a wizard's power budge is the ability to take a cantrip to attack monster weaknesses being part of this theoretical power budget. It is not substantial enough to account for the lack of controllable, comparative damage boosters given the monk's role as a martial.