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Thanks Kyrone!

Hi all,

Monastic Weaponry has a clause that says "You can use melee monk weapons with any of your monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks, though not if the feat or ability requires you to use a single specific type of attack, such as Crane Stance."

I understand this allows me to Flurry with a bo staff for instance. But I can't figure out if I can Disrupt Ki or deliver a Shattering Strike with the forementioned bo staff.

I'm hoping the wisdom of the boards will provide some enlightenment.

Thanks in advance!


I'm trying to figure out how alchemist dedication allows you to make lesser elixir of life at level 4. I get the feeling I'm missing something obvious but I can't figure out what.

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My 5th level Monk is a back up healer and main source of HP out of combat (so the spellcasters can save spell slots). This is what I suggest for a non-casting healer monk (as other have already mentioned):

Background - take Field Medic so you can start with Battle Medicine feat which allows you to restore hit points during combat (for a single action)
lvl 2 - for skill feat take Assurance Medicine which really kicks in at level 3 when you auto-succeed at that DC 15 check to heal 2d8
lvl 3 - for skill increase, increased Medicine to Expert which means at level 6 you auto succeed at the DC 20 check to heal 2d8+10), general feat take continual recovery
level 4 - for skill feat take Ward Medic

At level 7 you can increase Medicine to Expert to really boost Ward Medic (but this can be delayed if you need it too)

For RP reasons, I delayed Continual Recovery and took Godless Medicine so I could do Battle Medicine on myself 1/hour instead of 1/day. I also took Wholeness of Body as my level 4 monk feat so I could have a little bit more HP but also so I could counteract disease and poison on myself during combat

Hope this helps.

Regarding who does more damage, Dragon or Tiger, let's first assume Dragon is 18 Str and 16 Dex and Tiger is 16 Str and 18 Dex. This is how I tend to look at it:

1st Strike = dragon wins because it's a 1d10+4 while tiger is 1d8+3; they have an equal chance of hitting

2nd Strike = dragon again but he's less accurate than tiger; dragon is at -5 MAP whereas tiger is at -4 MAP. That -1 isn't as insignificant in 2e as it was in 1e but still more often than not, dragon will come out on top wrt dealing more damage than tiger on this attack. Remember though, had dragon missed on strike #1, because of backswing, he and tiger have same -4 MAP for this 2nd attack

3rd Strike = dragon again, but he's unlikely to hit with a -10 MAP. Tiger has a better chance of hitting being at -8 MAP. But still both are unlikely to hit a target that is +/- 2 the monk's level

So if you're focused on damage, dragon's your guy. With that said, the mobility (and better AC) of the tiger monk has tactical advantages that aren't as immediately apparent as damage potential; I can tell you first hand that tiger's 10ft step has allowed my tiger monk to move and strike without triggering the baddie's reactions.

Regarding Tiger Slash, I'm not a fan TBH because it's 2 actions for 1 strike, which means I'd only use in when I have improved chances to actually land the strike (e.g. I'm flanking, target is prone, etc.) and even then, I have a chance of missing. I find the other level 4 and level 6 feats are more compelling. But YMMV.

Ravingdork wrote:
Simply not being in a position to be attacked is miles better than standing there and hoping a shield will make the difference most any day.

This is TRUTH!

Atalius wrote:
Tiger Monk looks like a very capable DPR'er, I read Tiger Slash the same way as Lightning Raven it says "CAN" shove which is pretty awesome. How does the Monks damage compare against the likes of the Big Boys, exhibit A) Barbarian, Exhibit B) Fighter.

In my group, when the fighter lands a hit, he tends to hit harder because he uses power attack a lot. But I hit more often because of FoB. And also don't take as many hits because my action economy allows me to skirmish when he often cannot. So he's a bigger hitter but I land more hits because I have more "at bats" due to Flurry.

Haven't played with a Barb yet but I suspect they hit slightly harder than a monk but, like the fighter, they don't have as many hits per turn as monk who flurries. I also suspect they aren't as durable as monk due to rage-penalty to AC (that -1 does in fact make a difference especially when calculating crits).

Ubertron_X wrote:
Is there a special reason nobody picks up Brawling Focus? Slowed once in a while sounds decent and it is not hampered by the incap trait. Too much other good picks?

Agreed about its utility but I didn't choose it because it competes with feats that IMO are more optimal (basically more reliable/more fun). If I had a free level 2 class feat, I'd pick it up

I'm playing a human Tiger Monk at the moment who's currently lvl 5 and I play her as a striker...and am LOVING it. I normally move in Flurry and then move out but sometimes I choose to end up next to the enemy to provide flanking for an ally and so I carry a shield which allows me to use raise shield as my third action and get a +2 to my AC. Fluff-wise, I play it that the shield has a mandala painted on it with helps her with meditation or her contemplation of the flow of ki in all living things (aka RP-reasons for Medicine-focused feats - see below)

Here's what I've selected so far:
lvl 1 - took Tiger Stance and then via Natural Ambition took Ki Rush to up my mobility (I use it quite a bit which surprised me TBH and remember it also gives you Concealment until the start of your next turn)
lvl 2 - took Stunning Fist but retrained it to Student of Perfection Dedication because incapacitation wasn't working out for me. YMMV though with SF. SoP gives you Ki Strike and skill boost to your choice of Acrobatics or Athletics, and to Warfare Lore
lvl 4 - took Wholeness of Body for the extra healing but also to be able to counter poisons and disease during combat

As for non-monk feats, I went the Medicine route and took Battle Medicine, Godless Healing, and Assurance (Medicine) so I can heal myself and others in and out of combat. And since we're light on magical healing in my party, this has saved us a number of times.

If you want to be prepped for all terrain, I suggest getting Feather Step as a feat, then taking as monk feats Water Step (6), Wall Run (8), and Wind Jump (10). Although I suggest delaying Wall Run at 8 to take Wild Winds Stance so you have a nice ranged attack that you can flurry with.

Also suggest getting to Master in Acrobatics at 7 and Legendary at 15, so you can tumble through enemy spaces when you need to. Take Kip Up at 7 or 8.

You might forgo Water Step and Wall Run if you think they are too situational in which case you might consider Stand Still and/or Perfect Strike (from SoP). You should definitely take Meditative Focus at 12.

FWIW this is the plan for my Tiger monk:
Stats @1
Str 14 Dex 16 Con 14 Int 10 Wis 14 Cha 10

Stats @5
Str 16 Dex 18 Con 16 Int 10 Wis 16 Cha 10

Tiger Stance (1), Ki Rush (1 via Natural Ambition), Student of Perfection Dedication (2; gives Ki Strike), Wholeness of Body (4), SoP Perfect Strike (6), Wild Winds Initiate (8), Wind Jump (10), Meditative Focus (12), ?? (14), Wild Winds Gust (16), ?? (18), Impossible Technique (20).

As for saves, I agree with Queaux that Will>Fort>Ref and at level 17's ancestry feat, I plan on taking General Training - Canny Acumen to get my Reflex save to Master.

Hope this helps.

Castilliano wrote:

Plus, with WoB as a Focus spell, you can try every ten minutes to get rid of that disease, effectively making you immune to nearly all of disease progressing.

I'd look at Ki Blast, which starts modest, but ramps up fast.
Much better offense than Ki Strike (which I find iffy anyway when you compare it to the h.p. you're NOT getting by instead using that Focus Point on Wholeness of Body).

Thanks Castilliano. Very helpful to remember.

As for Ki Strike, it came "free" with the Student of Perfection archetype which I took at lvl 4 for RP reasons (not to mention the expert in athletics or acrobatics plus expert in warfare it gives you).

Hi all,

I need the wisdom of the boards (again) because I'm torn between two options: choosing Wholeness of Body (WoB) for a defensive ki option or choosing Perfect Strike (PS) for an offensive option.

Here's the situation: My lvl 5 tiger stance monk has an 18 Dex, 16 Wis, has Battle Medicine, Godless Healing, and Assurance (Medicine) so can guarantee herself 2d8+5 HP during a fight. And she's taken Student of Perfection Dedication.

Thinking ahead to level 6, she can take WoB which, at lvl6, allows her to restore 16 HP, or perhaps more importantly (?), allows her to try to counteract a disease or poison affliction during battle.

Or she can take PS which would allow her to reroll a missed unarmed strike.

Other Ki powers she has is Ki Rush (which I use surprisingly often) and Ki strike.

So what are your thoughts WoB or PS?

graystone wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:
If we're going to talk actual play, let's hear some experiences in actual play.
For myself, I think the best example was my rogue w/Lumber Consortium Laborer background. I wanted to try out tripping with assurance vs a sickle to set up the party in a one shot that ran 1st to 3rd level. I tried it with most every target and in 3 levels, I can think of maybe a handful of creatures it actually worked with. Threw in some grapples too but it was equally as frustrating. We didn't see a whole lot of mooks as the game was more sandbox with 1-2 encounters a day. Rounds I instead used normal Demoralize worked MUCH better: even if I took a -4 I'm pretty sure I had more successes than trips. Other players was a Precision ranger with a crossbow, a Giant Instinct barbarian, a cleric and a Storm Druid. The kicker is that every time I used it I rolled a hit with my sickle to compare the results: I'd have tripped more often with the sickle...

Graystone, thank you for sharing these kinds of details. You and others who've shared similar details have really helped balance the statistical points (which I'm pretty familiar with) with gameplay observations/experiences.

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Ravingdork wrote:
Maybe it's just raising my eyebrow because I've started to see people on these forums talking about using this as an established strategy to zero in on the weak save.

If there were to happen repeatedly at my table, I'd probably ask my players try to couch these kinds of observations IC as opposed to using purely game-statistics terms like 'wait his reflex save is a 23?" But that's me and I like it when players describe their actions to help with RP-/world-immersion

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I agree with Timeshadow. In the scenario you describe, the wizard's delivery makes it seem metagame-y, but he could have easily said, "Presto notices the giant easily side-stepping the fighter's maneuver. 'Hm,' he thinks to himself, 'that big oaf is more graceful than I would have thought. Gotta change my plans to take this into account'"

Ravingdork wrote:

My play expeirence is thus: Every single time my monk ends her turn next to an enemy, she's knocked out before she can act again.

I now pretty much exclusively Stride in, Flurry of Blows, Stride out. I can't imagine ending my turn next to a dangerous foe, my fate hinging on the off-chance that I will be able to knock him prone.


Skirmishing has been my main tactic too. If I were to go the Assurance:Athletics route, I'd use the 3rd Action maneuver only if my fighter companion is going before my target and is able to take advantage of my maneuver. I'm mostly viewing it as adding another tactic to my repertoire. This is how I'm imagining it going:

Init order = me, fighter, baddie

1. Stride up, flurry
1a. if Baddie fails Fort DC and is stunned 1, I use Assurance to Trip. The Stunned 1 let's me know that a baddie is my lvl or lower (a higher level foe has to crit fail to be stunned and I would know that before deciding to trip or stride away). So if baddie is my level or lower, it's also a candidate to have a Reflex save that my Assurance can match or beat
1b. if Baddie passes Fort DC and thus isn't stunned, I stride away

2. Fighter strides up and engages Baddie

3. Baddie's turn
3a. Stunned 1 Baddie has to decide to spend an action to stand up (triggering an AoO from fighter) or make it's attack with -2. I get that it's likely to attack me.
3b. Engages with Fighter

I know it's still a risky tactic to use because I'm still next to a foe that can attack me, but setting up the fighter and affecting the action economy of the baddie might be worth it in a number of occasions...but not all. As I alluded to above, I need to talk to the other players about changing our tactics to employ both status effects and damage as opposed to just damage (what we are doing now).

MaxAstro wrote:
I will also say that Assurance is obviously much better the less you have invested in the attribute tied to the skill. My players are not very optimized (multiple characters with no 18s until 5th level) so that probably also helps.

Totally understand. I'm a Dex-based monk. Not fully optimized either because @Level-3 Dex is 16 and Str is 14.

Thanks for sharing your experience MaxAstro. I just realized that my Stunning Fist feat should give me a semi-reliable way to discern if a target is my level or lower. It's not fool-proof since (i) I gotta hit at least once and deal damage and (ii) they could always save, but if they fail the save and are stunned 1 I know they are my level or lower and if they fail and aren't stunned I know they are higher than my level. So, if I wanna maneuver w/out MAP for that 3rd action, I might have some good intel to help me make that decision.

With that said, if I do decide to take Assurance:Athletics out for a spin (and retrain out if I don't like it), I think I'll wait until after I take Assurance:Medicine first (and in my case, going back to my original post, is level 4)

EDIT: I do need to talk to our druid and wizard and maybe even our alchemist to see if they are gonna start throwing around debuffs more. We're currently level 3 and are long-time PF1ers so we're slowly (very slowly) adjusting our combat tactics to better suit 2e

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Zapp wrote:

Is it just me who aren't interested in taking abilities that help only against trivial mooks?

When I play D&D games I'm a big game hunter. I'm interested in abilities that help me kill monsters higher level than myself.

My ability to kill mooks just come with the territory, no optimization necessary.

Zapp, I'm with you! While I am...I guess was now...interested in Assurance (Athletics) for a 3rd action Trip without MAP that - when successful - essentially reduces an enemies number of actions, I wanted to hear from folks' actual experiences with it as that would help me weigh that against the pure-numbers analysis of the feat which makes it look rather compelling.

NECR0G1ANT - Thank you for providing such a clear and concise analysis.

Aswaarg - Thank you for bringing up the info-gathering aspects of the feat. But as you point out, it's not something one builds a character around.

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Thanks everyone (especially those of you who shared your experiences with it in gameplay). You've all made some good points/observations. Since there's only one other front-liner in our group and he's a fighter I think I'm not gonna go the Assurance (Athletics) route and go with what my gut was telling me Assurance (Medicine) so I can kiss my bad luck with Treat Wounds roles goodbye!

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Castilliano wrote:

The hidden question is what else would you get?

Actually was thinking of taking Assurance (Medicine) because I'm one of our party's primary healers and also have Battle Medicine and Godless Healing and unfortunately have rolled poorly enough times for me to want these checks to be guaranteed. If I was gonna go Assurance (Athletics) at 4 was gonna take Assurance (Medicine) at 5 via Human's General Training feat.

Aratorin wrote:
My entire party retrained out of our Assurance feats at 5 after realizing this.

Thanks for the input Aratorin. This is my fear, that in practice it tends to work only in very specific circumstances (e.g. mooks 2-3 levels below my current level)

M Morris wrote:


I have a rogue that uses this tactic, and it is very frequently successful. If you're working with a friend to lower the target's Reflex saves, even better.

It's also not bad for just doing Athletic stuff.

Interesting. What are some of the ways you guys are lowering the target's reflex save?

Hi all,

At level 4, my monk will take the Student of Perfection Dedication and with this raise Athletics to Expert. I was also thinking of taking Assurance (Athletics) at the level 4 skill feat. I've read a number of posts about its utility as 3rd action Trip without MAP. I'm definitely interested in going this route but most of those posts are theory-craft so I was wondering if anyone has any actual gameplay experience with Assurance (Athletics). What do you think of its utility? Is it as useful as you had imagined?

Thanks in advance for your responses.

Thanks Aratorin. I thought that was the case but hoped I was wrong :)

Hi all,

Let's say I have a monk who's given handwraps that are etched (stitched?) with the grievous weapon property rune. And let's also say said monk does NOT have the Brawling Focus feat. Does the grievous rune grant my monk the critical specialization when I crit with an unarmed attack even though I don't have Brawling Focus?

Many thanks for your help.

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Gorbacz wrote:
So if anybody comes to her like "Lady, I shall champion the beautiful cause of redemption you embody so gracefully" she's like "FFS NOPE, DON'T IRRITATE ME" and then she's like *phone* "Sarenrae, hun, you send one more of those morons at me and I'll be having a conversation with you! Yes, today at 9 PM, at Desna's, why yes, I'll bring the wine".

Thank you Gorbacz, you just made my day! LOVE it!

graystone wrote:
Fighting fan [11 sp, 1d4 ,S ,L ,1 ,Knife, [Agile, backstabber, deadly d6, finesse, monk]

Thanks grayston!

Thanks for this list graystone.

A bit off topic but does anyone know which, if any, of the new weapons are "monk weapons" (i.e. have the monk trait)?

Many thanks!

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Captain Morgan and GM OfAnything,

Thank you for your responses. While I was hoping there would be an unambiguous "of course they interact" set of responses, your posts demonstrate this isn't one of those cases. I'll have to discuss with my GM to make sure we are in alignment on if and how they interact.

Hi all,

Some background:
Normally when you attempt to Demoralize a target, if it doesn't understand the language you're speaking, you’re not speaking a language (i.e. roaring or yelling incoherently), or it can’t hear you, you take a –4 circumstance penalty to your check to demoralize it.

Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize with a look, so when you demoralize this way, you don't take the -4 penalty to your check if your target doesn't understand your language. Mechanically Demoralize loses the auditory trait and gains the visual trait when you demoralize this way.

Battle Cry allows you to attempt to demoralize an observed foe when you roll initiative.

My question is, if I have both Intimidating Glare and Battle Cry, I don't take the -4 penalty with Battle Cry if my target doesn't understand my language, correct? In other words, is the "you can yell a mighty battle cry" portion of the Battle Cry description essentially turned into flavor text if you also have Intimidating Glare?

I think this is the way they interact but wanted to check the wisdom of the boards.


I liked your initial idea of a damage- and demoralize-focused monk and thought what that might look like. And here's what I've come up with:

I've imagined a monk who obsessively studies the might, ferocity, and fearsome mien of dragons in the pursuit of creating a new fighting style so that's why I chose Scholar and Extra Lore - Dragons as a starting point (the Extra Lore feat automatically improves to expert/master/legendary as you level up).

Mechanically, I've taken a number of Barbarian dedication feats to up DPR (Draconic Rage, Attack of Opportunity, Thrash). There are some control aspects as well via Demoralize and Combat Maneuvers. Ki Strike and Stunning Fist provide some nice and thematic options.

I sacrificed some damage output (starting with Str 16 and ending with Str 20) in order to boost other useful abilities.

Beginning AC is middling (not bad if you raise shield) but improves nicely over the levels.

Versatile Human
Str 16
Dex 12
Con 14
Int 10
Wis 12
Cha 14

Level 1:
Background: Scholar - Assurance (Athletics), Lore: Academics
Ancestry Feat: Natural Ambition (Dragon Stance)
Heritage: Versatile Heritage (Extra Lore: Dragons) for RP reason
Class Feat: Ki Strike (will train out of this at level 9 when we get it for "free" via Student of Perfection)
AC = 16; Shield = 18

Level 2:
Class feat: Stunning Fist
Skill feat: Intimidating Glare (will train out of this at level 8 because we’ll get it for “free” via Raging Intimidation)

Level 3:
General feat: Toughness
Skill Increase: Athletics (expert)

Level 4:
Class feat: Flurry of Maneuvers
Skill feat: Titan Wrestler

Level 5:
Ability Boosts: Str, Dex, Con, Cha
Ancestry Feat – Haughty Obstinacy
Skill increase - Intimidation (expert)
AC = 21; Shield = 23

Level 6:
Class feat: Barbarian Dedication
Skill feat: Intimidating Prowess

Level 7:
General feat: Incredible Initiative
Skill increase: Athletic (master)
1st Path of Perfection – Will (master)

Level 8:
Retrain Intimidating Glare (Lvl 2) for Quick Jump
Class feat: Basic Fury - Raging Intimidation (gives us Intimidating Glare so we don’t lose it via retraining))
Skill feat: Wall Jump

Level 9:
Retrain Ki Strike (Lvl 1) for Ki Rush
Ancestry Feat: Multitalented - Student of Perfection (gives us Ki Strike and Acrobatics (expert))
Skill increase: Intimidation (master)

Level 10:
Ability Boosts: Str, Dex, Con, Cha
Class feat: Instinct Ability (Draconic Rage)
Skill feat: Battle Cry
AC = 27, Shield = 29

Level 11:
General feat: Fast Recovery
Skill increase: Acrobatics (Master)
2nd Path to Perfection – Fortitude (master)

Level 12:
Class feat: Dragon Roar
Skill feat: Terrified Retreat

Level 13:
Ancestry Feat: General Training (Catfall)
Skill increase: Diplomacy (expert)
Unarmored Defense (master)
AC = 32, Shield = 34

Level 14:
Class feat: Advanced Fury (Dragon’s Rage Breath)
Skill feat: Quick Climber

Level 15:
Ability Boosts: Str, Dex, Con, Cha
General feat: Cloud Jump
Skill Increase: Athletics (legendary)
3rd Path to Perfection – Will (legendary)
AC = 35; Shield = 37

Level 16:
Class feat: Advanced Fury (Attack of Opportunity)
Skill feat: Quick Swim

Level 17:
Ancestry Feat: General Training (Uncanny Accumen – Reflex (master))
Skill Increase: Intimidation (legendary; get Scare to Death automatically via Raging Intimidation selected at lvl 8)
Unarmored Defense (legendary)
AC = 39, Shield = 41

Level 18:
Class Feat: Advance Fury (Thrash)
Skill Feat: Quick Coercion

Level 19:
General Skill: Fleet? Kip Up?
Skill Increase: Acrobatics (legendary)

Level 20:
Ability Boosts: Con, Int, Wis, Cha
Class Feat: Impossible Technique
Skill Feat: Group Coercion
AC = 42, Shield = 44

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Porridge wrote:
Atalius wrote:

1st action: Enter dragon stance

2nd action: FoB
3rd action: Enter Crane stance
Reaction: Enemy hits me as I'm frontlining, I hit enemy with a Crane Wing strike.

Unfortunately, I don’t think that’s legal:

“After you use an action with the stance trait, you can’t use another one for 1 round.”

Thanks for the reminder Porridge. I knew there was a reason I had originally thought something about crane and dragon was off but wasn't sure if it was a rule or just personal taste.

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Atalius wrote:

1st action: Enter dragon stance

2nd action: FoB
3rd action: Enter Crane stance
Reaction: Enemy hits me as I'm frontlining, I hit enemy with a Crane Wing strike.

That's totally doable if you're looking for max damage and a monk's "attack of opportunity". I was suggesting the control route via grab/trip and also better optimizing your demoralize (which I may have mistakenly thought was a goal of yours) as it offers various options for you.

Atalius wrote:
Yes I have an alternate Mountain stance build which is exactly as you described believe it or not, I took stunning fist, and then FoM at 4. However that build doesn't is more of a control build is it not and less damage? Because with dragon your doing very good damage and most rounds your also using Crane for the reaction to get even more damage. Mountain doesn't really come close in that regard. So your suggesting a controller over a damager?

For a long while in a Monk's career, you can't be in two stances at once so having Crane when you are primarily looking to be in Dragon doesn't help you (it takes an action to enter a stance).

If you want to stick with Dragon, then don't drop Dex to 10 but perhaps to 12 and then carry a shield in your hand and then take the raise a shield action after you flurry (1 action) and strike (1 action) or move (1 action) and flurry (1 action) for the +2 to AC.

[edit] You can even flavor-text your shield as a dragon's scale too

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If you're looking to stand in the front lines and deal damage, I suggest you drop your Dex to 10 and go the Mountain Stance route (and not take Crane Stance). You can then put those points into CHA (or split them between CHA and Con because a 12 for Con for a frontliner is dangerous, even if you have Toughness). You can then take Flurry of Maneuvers at lvl 4. Take Mountain Stronghold at lvl 6 (if you make Dex go from 10 to 12 at lvl 5, you're can now take advantage of that +1 Dex modifier).

Btw as Sober Caydenite notes, you're missing your lvl 1 Monk feat. You can take Ki Strike there. At lvl 2, I suggest you forego Dragon Stance and instead take Crushing Grab or Stunning Fist (I'm actually partial to Stunning Fist myself).

Hope this helps

Gulian, what are your thoughts on giving the SB the Disruptive feat at level 6 when it becomes available to fighters? Thematically, the feat fits with this class and currently the SB would have to wait until level 8 and choose it as his bonus feat. I don't think this would be terribly unbalancing because if the SB were to get Disruptive at 6, he'd be at 4 bonus feats, putting him in the same range as Magus (3 bonus feats), Monk (5 bonus feats), and Inquisitor (4 teamwork feats).

@ Gulian,

Thanks for adding Spellvoid to the doc. I'm honored. Spellvoid currently refers to "Anti-Magic Fortitude" which you've renamed "Mystic Fortitude" (which I like). Can you make the necessary edits in the doc for the Spellvoid entry?

I have some questions about Spell Sunder. Does it trigger an attack of opportunity as normal sunder attempts do? Relatedly, can the SB take feats such as "Improved Sunder" and "Greater Sunder" and apply them to Spell Sunder? You may have addressed this earlier in the thread so I apologize for missing it. Assuming the answers to both is 'yes', I suggest making it explicit in the entry for Spell Sunder that Spell sunder provokes attacks of opportunity (as per normal sunders) and the sunder feats can be applied to Spell Sunder.

Re: Energy Channel (and Spellvoid's Anti-magic Fuel), it currently seems that an SB can use the ability to cast a spell even if he doesn't have a high enough Intelligence score to do so (e.g. casting a 6th level spell even though the SB has a 15 in Intelligence). Is this intentional? If not, I suggest adding to the ability's entry: "To cast a spell via Energy Channel, the Spellbreaker must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level"

dpb123 wrote:

@Gulian - I think that's what we'll do. I don't know how to edit the post so when you add the archetype to the Google doc, please change

Spellvoid to: "At 3rd level, with a move action..."

and Improved Spellvoid to: "At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use a swift action..."

Hi, I've thought about this some more and at 6 times a day, this power is already pretty limited. So I think we should leave it as a swift and then an immediate at level 11

@Gulian - I think that's what we'll do. I don't know how to edit the post so when you add the archetype to the Google doc, please change

Spellvoid to: "At 3rd level, with a move action..."

and Improved Spellvoid to: "At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use a swift action..."

Thanks Gulian and it was my pleasure.

The GM of my current game thinks that activating Spellvoid as a Swift is OP and thinks it should be a move action. I can see how he thinks it's OP but given its limited uses per day, perhaps that balances it out? Not sure if we should make it a move action and then at level 11 it can be a swift. Do you have any thoughts on this?

I adjusted each of the abilities and fully re-worked the level 13 ability. I provided design notes so folks can understand why I made some decisions and where I'm still on the fence. Constructive criticism is most welcome

The Spellvoid
Seeing the tactical advantages available to their brethren, some Spellbreakers combine the Spell Adept’s and the Spell Defender’s abilities to protect others from the ravaging forces of magic with the Spellslayer’s penchant for surveying any and all confrontations in order to determine the course of action most beneficial to him and detrimental to his enemies. Such men and women have been dubbed Spellvoids for their abilities to manipulate the field of battle by creating areas resistant to magic.

Spellvoid (Su)
At 3rd level, with a swift action, the Spellvoid may project his Spell Resistance and his bonuses from his Anti-Magic Fortitude ability to all targets in a 10-ft radius burst within close range (i.e. 25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels). The projected benefits have a duration of 1 minute per Spellvoid level. These projected benefits do not stack with the Spellvoid’s own Spell Resistance or Anti-Magic Fortitude should he be in his burst’s affected area. If a spell allows its target a saving throw, those affected by this Spellvoid ability must make the appropriate saving throw, even with beneficial spells (e.g. Cure Moderate Wounds, Haste). The Spellvoid may deactivate a projected burst as a free action. The Spellvoid may use this ability once per day.

At 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid gains an additional use of this ability per day (6/day at 18th). Additionally at 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid can increase the radius of the burst by 5 feet, to a maximum of a 30-foot radius at level 15.

This ability replaces Spell Steal

Design note: Since this is a fairly limited resource and because I incorporated Gulian’s suggestion that folks need to make saves on all spells, including beneficial ones, I decided to allow the Spellvoid to project both his SR and Anti-magic Fortitude bonus. I also added a duration of 1 min/level in order to clarify that these benefits aren’t indefinitely shared once projected.

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, the Spellvoid may use an immediate action to project his Spell Resistance and Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses.

Moreover, at 11th level, the Spellvoid may choose to exclude a number of targets from being affected by his projected burst or he may choose to exempt a number of affected targets from needing to make saving throws for spells from which they are willing to receive effects. The number of targets the Spellvoid may exclude or exempt is equal to 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). By expending an additional daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can both exclude and exempt targets; excluded targets need not be the same as exempted targets, and vice versa.

This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude

Design note: I’m up in the air about allowing this ability to be activated as an immediate because it might be a tad OP. If I had to choose between immediate action or the exclude/exempt mechanic, I’d choose the exclude/exempt.

Anti-Magic Fuel
By specializing in the countering and suppression of magic, the Spellvoid forgoes the Spellbreaker’s versatility in order to access more powerful anti-magic spells.

This ability functions the same as Energy Channel except (i) the Spellvoid can gain spellslots as high as 9th level, (ii) but he may only fill these spellslots with spells from the Spellvoid’s Anti-Magic Fuel spell list and said spell must be in his spellbook.

At 13th level, a Spellvoid can use 1st through 7th level spells. At 15th level, he can use 8th level spells. At 17th level, he can use 9th level spells.

Moreover, by expending a daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can exclude a number of targets from the effects of any spell he casts (e.g. Anti-Magic Field, Dispel Magic, Mage’s Disjunction, etc.) equal to 1+Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability alters Energy Channel

Design Note: I felt limiting the spells a Spellvoid can actually fuel - to mostly anti-magic and protection spells - justifies being able to fuel up to level 9 spells. As I mention, the Spellvoid gives up a fair amount of versatility in order to fuel spells higher than 6th level. I added the exclusion mechanic for thematic reasons, but I’m not wedded to it…might be OP

Anti-Magic Fuel spell list
1st level spells: Hex Ward; Hide from Undead; Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Remove Fear; Shield of Faith; Stunning Barrier

2nd level spells: Corruption Resistance; Enshroud Thoughts; Ghostbane Dirge; Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Communal; Remove Paralysis; Resist Energy; See Invisibility; Silence; Surmount Affliction

3rd level spells: Banish Seeming; Cast Out; Devolution; Dispel Magic; Eldritch Fever; Invisibility Purge; Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Nondetection; Protection from Energy; Remove Curse; Resist Energy, Communal; Stunning Barrier, Communal

4th level spells: Bestow Curse (Lesser Spellblights only); Break Enchantment; Death Ward; Dimensional Anchor; Dismissal; Freedom of Movement; Protection from Energy, Communal; Spell Immunity; Ward Shield; True Form

5th level spells: Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Disrupting Weapon; Ghostbane Dirge, Mass; Spell Resistance; Spell Immunity, Communal; Undeath Ward; True Seeing

6th level spells: Antimagic Field; Banishment; Dispel Magic, Greater; Globe of Invulnerability; Undeath to Death

7th level spells: Expend; Sequester; Spell Turning

8th level spells: Bestow Curse, Greater (Major Spellblights Only); Dimensional Lock; Mind Blank; Protection from Spells; Spell Immunity, Greater

9th level spells: Freedom; Mage’s Disjunction; Spell Immunity Greater, Communal; Wall of Suppression

Design note: the spells on the Anti-Magic Fuel spell list were chosen mostly because they undo or suppress magic/magical effects; provide protection from magic/magical effects; suppress or kill undead (because they are almost always animated via magic); or generally help the Spellvoid f-up a caster (e.g. Silence, See Invisibility; Bestow Curses (limited to Spellblights), Disrupting Weapon, etc.).

I understand that at 13th-plus level, many of the lower level spells might not get a lot of use during combat, but I wanted to provide the Spellvoid options for when he resists/sunders lower level spells instead of hard-coding into the class a spell list that starts with 4th or 5th level spells (which, IMO, are the spell levels that really start to get useful for in-combat play).


Thanks for the clarification. I suggest rewording the caster DC portion of Energy Channel to read:

"When casting in this way, the Spellbreaker calculates his caster level using his Spellbreaker levels for purposes of caster level checks (such as overcoming a target's SR). The DC of a spell cast in this way is calculated as normal, using the Spellbreaker's Intelligence modifier (e.g. 10 + spell level + INT mod)"

I added the bit about caster level to be more explicit about the mechanics of the spells cast via Energy Channel

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In your description of Energy Channel you write:

"At 13th level, whenever the Spellbreaker succesfully resists or sunders a spell, he may channel the residual energy of that spell into his own spellcasting, effectively granting him a single spellslot equal to the level of the spell cast. However, he may not receive a spellslot above 6th level. When casting in this way, Spellbreaker’s casting DC is equal to 10 + half the spellbreaker’s level + INT."

What do you mean by casting DC? Do you mean that the Spellbreaker must make a concentration check with the DC being the above? Or perhaps the DC of the spell is what you have above instead of the normal 10+spell's level+Int mod? Clarification will be most appreciated.

Ok. FYI, I don't feel strongly about using Cha and Wis. It can be just Cha for the reasons you cite, or just Wis from their studies/philosophy of the need for policing magic (a fairly wise POV in my book). If you go the 1d4 route, that's understandable too. After all, it's a relatively small mechanical choice for a late-mid game class ability.


Thanks for the clarification.

As for how long the energy "sticks around" for use, I prefer ability mod (Cha or Wis to allow different build options) because that can be bumped up with spells/magic items/etc. I suggest making it 1+Cha/Wis mod (minimum of 1).


I have a quick question about Energy Channel. If the SB decides to use the residual energy of a spell he just resisted/sundered to power one of his own spells, that spell must be in his spellbook; is this correct? I think this is the way it works but it's not explicitly stated so wanted to check

@Gulian, the more I think about Spellblank, the more I see your point about it being underwhelming, especially compared to the range of spells a SB can cast with Energy Channel.

I'll put some thought into this over the weekend and will likely post an updated version Monday or Tuesday

Btw, regarding Spell Resistance and the Spellbreaker needing to identify a beneficial spell for him to be able to drop his SR, I suggest that if the spell is in the SB's spellbook, he doesn't need to identify the spell for him to be able to drop his SR. So if he has Fox's Cunning in his book and his wizard companion wants to cast it on him, no spell ID is needed. He can drop it as a free action on his turn or as an immediate if it's not his turn and his wizard can cast as normal.

This leads to an interesting choice point for the SB - have some strategically beneficial spells in his book (e.g. Haste, Enlarge Person, the various cure spells, etc.) or crank Spellcraft to make those checks for the beneficial spells (and hope you don't roll a 1) and then fill the book with spells you want to be able to counter with your SR.

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, when the Spellvoid projects his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he benefits from those abilities as well. The Spellvoid may choose to forego such benefits in order to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude

I think I'd like to make the following edit to the above. Edit bolded

Improved Spellvoid (Su)
At 11th level, when the Spellvoid projects his Spell Resistance or his Anti-Magic Fortitude bonuses, he benefits from those abilities as well. The Spellvoid may choose to forego such benefits in order to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). Alternatively, the Spellvoid can expend a daily use of his Spellvoid ability to exclude a number of targets from his projected burst equal to 1+his Wisdom modifier or 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).

edit: @ Gulian, I didn't see that you had posted when I posted this. I think that's fine and making everyone in the area make the appropriate save to benefit from spells balances it out. While I'm not found of this mechanic, it could mesh well with my suggestion re: beneficial spells in the spellbook, perhaps folks in the area either don't need to make the saves or get a bonus based on 1+Will or 1+Cha mod (minimum of 1).

As for Spell Adept, no need to change anything, I think the two are sufficiently different even if they share some similar abilities

As for Spell Blank, mileage will vary with campaign, but I think it's pretty powerful to be able to walk into 2-3 encounters a day protecting yourself and your buddies from magic and this would pretty much such down any BBEG casters

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