Monastic Weaponry has a clause that says "You can use melee monk weapons with any of your monk feats or monk abilities that normally require unarmed attacks, though not if the feat or ability requires you to use a single specific type of attack, such as Crane Stance."
I'm hoping the wisdom of the boards will provide some enlightenment.
Thanks in advance!
My 5th level Monk is a back up healer and main source of HP out of combat (so the spellcasters can save spell slots). This is what I suggest for a non-casting healer monk (as other have already mentioned):
Background - take Field Medic so you can start with Battle Medicine feat which allows you to restore hit points during combat (for a single action)
At level 7 you can increase Medicine to Expert to really boost Ward Medic (but this can be delayed if you need it too)
For RP reasons, I delayed Continual Recovery and took Godless Medicine so I could do Battle Medicine on myself 1/hour instead of 1/day. I also took Wholeness of Body as my level 4 monk feat so I could have a little bit more HP but also so I could counteract disease and poison on myself during combat
Hope this helps.
Regarding who does more damage, Dragon or Tiger, let's first assume Dragon is 18 Str and 16 Dex and Tiger is 16 Str and 18 Dex. This is how I tend to look at it:
1st Strike = dragon wins because it's a 1d10+4 while tiger is 1d8+3; they have an equal chance of hitting
2nd Strike = dragon again but he's less accurate than tiger; dragon is at -5 MAP whereas tiger is at -4 MAP. That -1 isn't as insignificant in 2e as it was in 1e but still more often than not, dragon will come out on top wrt dealing more damage than tiger on this attack. Remember though, had dragon missed on strike #1, because of backswing, he and tiger have same -4 MAP for this 2nd attack
3rd Strike = dragon again, but he's unlikely to hit with a -10 MAP. Tiger has a better chance of hitting being at -8 MAP. But still both are unlikely to hit a target that is +/- 2 the monk's level
So if you're focused on damage, dragon's your guy. With that said, the mobility (and better AC) of the tiger monk has tactical advantages that aren't as immediately apparent as damage potential; I can tell you first hand that tiger's 10ft step has allowed my tiger monk to move and strike without triggering the baddie's reactions.
Regarding Tiger Slash, I'm not a fan TBH because it's 2 actions for 1 strike, which means I'd only use in when I have improved chances to actually land the strike (e.g. I'm flanking, target is prone, etc.) and even then, I have a chance of missing. I find the other level 4 and level 6 feats are more compelling. But YMMV.
Tiger Monk looks like a very capable DPR'er, I read Tiger Slash the same way as Lightning Raven it says "CAN" shove which is pretty awesome. How does the Monks damage compare against the likes of the Big Boys, exhibit A) Barbarian, Exhibit B) Fighter.
In my group, when the fighter lands a hit, he tends to hit harder because he uses power attack a lot. But I hit more often because of FoB. And also don't take as many hits because my action economy allows me to skirmish when he often cannot. So he's a bigger hitter but I land more hits because I have more "at bats" due to Flurry.
Haven't played with a Barb yet but I suspect they hit slightly harder than a monk but, like the fighter, they don't have as many hits per turn as monk who flurries. I also suspect they aren't as durable as monk due to rage-penalty to AC (that -1 does in fact make a difference especially when calculating crits).
Is there a special reason nobody picks up Brawling Focus? Slowed once in a while sounds decent and it is not hampered by the incap trait. Too much other good picks?
Agreed about its utility but I didn't choose it because it competes with feats that IMO are more optimal (basically more reliable/more fun). If I had a free level 2 class feat, I'd pick it up
I'm playing a human Tiger Monk at the moment who's currently lvl 5 and I play her as a striker...and am LOVING it. I normally move in Flurry and then move out but sometimes I choose to end up next to the enemy to provide flanking for an ally and so I carry a shield which allows me to use raise shield as my third action and get a +2 to my AC. Fluff-wise, I play it that the shield has a mandala painted on it with helps her with meditation or her contemplation of the flow of ki in all living things (aka RP-reasons for Medicine-focused feats - see below)
Here's what I've selected so far:
As for non-monk feats, I went the Medicine route and took Battle Medicine, Godless Healing, and Assurance (Medicine) so I can heal myself and others in and out of combat. And since we're light on magical healing in my party, this has saved us a number of times.
If you want to be prepped for all terrain, I suggest getting Feather Step as a feat, then taking as monk feats Water Step (6), Wall Run (8), and Wind Jump (10). Although I suggest delaying Wall Run at 8 to take Wild Winds Stance so you have a nice ranged attack that you can flurry with.
Also suggest getting to Master in Acrobatics at 7 and Legendary at 15, so you can tumble through enemy spaces when you need to. Take Kip Up at 7 or 8.
You might forgo Water Step and Wall Run if you think they are too situational in which case you might consider Stand Still and/or Perfect Strike (from SoP). You should definitely take Meditative Focus at 12.
FWIW this is the plan for my Tiger monk:
Tiger Stance (1), Ki Rush (1 via Natural Ambition), Student of Perfection Dedication (2; gives Ki Strike), Wholeness of Body (4), SoP Perfect Strike (6), Wild Winds Initiate (8), Wind Jump (10), Meditative Focus (12), ?? (14), Wild Winds Gust (16), ?? (18), Impossible Technique (20).
As for saves, I agree with Queaux that Will>Fort>Ref and at level 17's ancestry feat, I plan on taking General Training - Canny Acumen to get my Reflex save to Master.
Hope this helps.
Thanks Castilliano. Very helpful to remember.
As for Ki Strike, it came "free" with the Student of Perfection archetype which I took at lvl 4 for RP reasons (not to mention the expert in athletics or acrobatics plus expert in warfare it gives you).
Here's the situation: My lvl 5 tiger stance monk has an 18 Dex, 16 Wis, has Battle Medicine, Godless Healing, and Assurance (Medicine) so can guarantee herself 2d8+5 HP during a fight. And she's taken Student of Perfection Dedication.
Thinking ahead to level 6, she can take WoB which, at lvl6, allows her to restore 16 HP, or perhaps more importantly (?), allows her to try to counteract a disease or poison affliction during battle.
Or she can take PS which would allow her to reroll a missed unarmed strike.
Other Ki powers she has is Ki Rush (which I use surprisingly often) and Ki strike.
So what are your thoughts WoB or PS?
Graystone, thank you for sharing these kinds of details. You and others who've shared similar details have really helped balance the statistical points (which I'm pretty familiar with) with gameplay observations/experiences.
Maybe it's just raising my eyebrow because I've started to see people on these forums talking about using this as an established strategy to zero in on the weak save.
If there were to happen repeatedly at my table, I'd probably ask my players try to couch these kinds of observations IC as opposed to using purely game-statistics terms like 'wait his reflex save is a 23?" But that's me and I like it when players describe their actions to help with RP-/world-immersion
I agree with Timeshadow. In the scenario you describe, the wizard's delivery makes it seem metagame-y, but he could have easily said, "Presto notices the giant easily side-stepping the fighter's maneuver. 'Hm,' he thinks to himself, 'that big oaf is more graceful than I would have thought. Gotta change my plans to take this into account'"
Ravingdork,Skirmishing has been my main tactic too. If I were to go the Assurance:Athletics route, I'd use the 3rd Action maneuver only if my fighter companion is going before my target and is able to take advantage of my maneuver. I'm mostly viewing it as adding another tactic to my repertoire. This is how I'm imagining it going:
Init order = me, fighter, baddie
1. Stride up, flurry
2. Fighter strides up and engages Baddie
3. Baddie's turn
I know it's still a risky tactic to use because I'm still next to a foe that can attack me, but setting up the fighter and affecting the action economy of the baddie might be worth it in a number of occasions...but not all. As I alluded to above, I need to talk to the other players about changing our tactics to employ both status effects and damage as opposed to just damage (what we are doing now).
I will also say that Assurance is obviously much better the less you have invested in the attribute tied to the skill. My players are not very optimized (multiple characters with no 18s until 5th level) so that probably also helps.
Totally understand. I'm a Dex-based monk. Not fully optimized either because @Level-3 Dex is 16 and Str is 14.
Thanks for sharing your experience MaxAstro. I just realized that my Stunning Fist feat should give me a semi-reliable way to discern if a target is my level or lower. It's not fool-proof since (i) I gotta hit at least once and deal damage and (ii) they could always save, but if they fail the save and are stunned 1 I know they are my level or lower and if they fail and aren't stunned I know they are higher than my level. So, if I wanna maneuver w/out MAP for that 3rd action, I might have some good intel to help me make that decision.
With that said, if I do decide to take Assurance:Athletics out for a spin (and retrain out if I don't like it), I think I'll wait until after I take Assurance:Medicine first (and in my case, going back to my original post, is level 4)
EDIT: I do need to talk to our druid and wizard and maybe even our alchemist to see if they are gonna start throwing around debuffs more. We're currently level 3 and are long-time PF1ers so we're slowly (very slowly) adjusting our combat tactics to better suit 2e
Zapp, I'm with you! While I am...I guess was now...interested in Assurance (Athletics) for a 3rd action Trip without MAP that - when successful - essentially reduces an enemies number of actions, I wanted to hear from folks' actual experiences with it as that would help me weigh that against the pure-numbers analysis of the feat which makes it look rather compelling.
Thanks everyone (especially those of you who shared your experiences with it in gameplay). You've all made some good points/observations. Since there's only one other front-liner in our group and he's a fighter I think I'm not gonna go the Assurance (Athletics) route and go with what my gut was telling me Assurance (Medicine) so I can kiss my bad luck with Treat Wounds roles goodbye!
Actually was thinking of taking Assurance (Medicine) because I'm one of our party's primary healers and also have Battle Medicine and Godless Healing and unfortunately have rolled poorly enough times for me to want these checks to be guaranteed. If I was gonna go Assurance (Athletics) at 4 was gonna take Assurance (Medicine) at 5 via Human's General Training feat.
M Morris wrote:
Interesting. What are some of the ways you guys are lowering the target's reflex save?
At level 4, my monk will take the Student of Perfection Dedication and with this raise Athletics to Expert. I was also thinking of taking Assurance (Athletics) at the level 4 skill feat. I've read a number of posts about its utility as 3rd action Trip without MAP. I'm definitely interested in going this route but most of those posts are theory-craft so I was wondering if anyone has any actual gameplay experience with Assurance (Athletics). What do you think of its utility? Is it as useful as you had imagined?
Thanks in advance for your responses.
Let's say I have a monk who's given handwraps that are etched (stitched?) with the grievous weapon property rune. And let's also say said monk does NOT have the Brawling Focus feat. Does the grievous rune grant my monk the critical specialization when I crit with an unarmed attack even though I don't have Brawling Focus?
Many thanks for your help.
So if anybody comes to her like "Lady, I shall champion the beautiful cause of redemption you embody so gracefully" she's like "FFS NOPE, DON'T IRRITATE ME" and then she's like *phone* "Sarenrae, hun, you send one more of those morons at me and I'll be having a conversation with you! Yes, today at 9 PM, at Desna's, why yes, I'll bring the wine".
Thank you Gorbacz, you just made my day! LOVE it!
Captain Morgan and GM OfAnything,
Thank you for your responses. While I was hoping there would be an unambiguous "of course they interact" set of responses, your posts demonstrate this isn't one of those cases. I'll have to discuss with my GM to make sure we are in alignment on if and how they interact.
Intimidating Glare allows you to demoralize with a look, so when you demoralize this way, you don't take the -4 penalty to your check if your target doesn't understand your language. Mechanically Demoralize loses the auditory trait and gains the visual trait when you demoralize this way.
Battle Cry allows you to attempt to demoralize an observed foe when you roll initiative.
My question is, if I have both Intimidating Glare and Battle Cry, I don't take the -4 penalty with Battle Cry if my target doesn't understand my language, correct? In other words, is the "you can yell a mighty battle cry" portion of the Battle Cry description essentially turned into flavor text if you also have Intimidating Glare?
I think this is the way they interact but wanted to check the wisdom of the boards.
I liked your initial idea of a damage- and demoralize-focused monk and thought what that might look like. And here's what I've come up with:
I've imagined a monk who obsessively studies the might, ferocity, and fearsome mien of dragons in the pursuit of creating a new fighting style so that's why I chose Scholar and Extra Lore - Dragons as a starting point (the Extra Lore feat automatically improves to expert/master/legendary as you level up).
Mechanically, I've taken a number of Barbarian dedication feats to up DPR (Draconic Rage, Attack of Opportunity, Thrash). There are some control aspects as well via Demoralize and Combat Maneuvers. Ki Strike and Stunning Fist provide some nice and thematic options.
I sacrificed some damage output (starting with Str 16 and ending with Str 20) in order to boost other useful abilities.
Beginning AC is middling (not bad if you raise shield) but improves nicely over the levels.
Thanks for the reminder Porridge. I knew there was a reason I had originally thought something about crane and dragon was off but wasn't sure if it was a rule or just personal taste.
That's totally doable if you're looking for max damage and a monk's "attack of opportunity". I was suggesting the control route via grab/trip and also better optimizing your demoralize (which I may have mistakenly thought was a goal of yours) as it offers various options for you.
Yes I have an alternate Mountain stance build which is exactly as you described believe it or not, I took stunning fist, and then FoM at 4. However that build doesn't is more of a control build is it not and less damage? Because with dragon your doing very good damage and most rounds your also using Crane for the reaction to get even more damage. Mountain doesn't really come close in that regard. So your suggesting a controller over a damager?
For a long while in a Monk's career, you can't be in two stances at once so having Crane when you are primarily looking to be in Dragon doesn't help you (it takes an action to enter a stance).
If you want to stick with Dragon, then don't drop Dex to 10 but perhaps to 12 and then carry a shield in your hand and then take the raise a shield action after you flurry (1 action) and strike (1 action) or move (1 action) and flurry (1 action) for the +2 to AC.
 You can even flavor-text your shield as a dragon's scale too
If you're looking to stand in the front lines and deal damage, I suggest you drop your Dex to 10 and go the Mountain Stance route (and not take Crane Stance). You can then put those points into CHA (or split them between CHA and Con because a 12 for Con for a frontliner is dangerous, even if you have Toughness). You can then take Flurry of Maneuvers at lvl 4. Take Mountain Stronghold at lvl 6 (if you make Dex go from 10 to 12 at lvl 5, you're can now take advantage of that +1 Dex modifier).
Btw as Sober Caydenite notes, you're missing your lvl 1 Monk feat. You can take Ki Strike there. At lvl 2, I suggest you forego Dragon Stance and instead take Crushing Grab or Stunning Fist (I'm actually partial to Stunning Fist myself).
Hope this helps
Gulian, what are your thoughts on giving the SB the Disruptive feat at level 6 when it becomes available to fighters? Thematically, the feat fits with this class and currently the SB would have to wait until level 8 and choose it as his bonus feat. I don't think this would be terribly unbalancing because if the SB were to get Disruptive at 6, he'd be at 4 bonus feats, putting him in the same range as Magus (3 bonus feats), Monk (5 bonus feats), and Inquisitor (4 teamwork feats).
Thanks for adding Spellvoid to the doc. I'm honored. Spellvoid currently refers to "Anti-Magic Fortitude" which you've renamed "Mystic Fortitude" (which I like). Can you make the necessary edits in the doc for the Spellvoid entry?
I have some questions about Spell Sunder. Does it trigger an attack of opportunity as normal sunder attempts do? Relatedly, can the SB take feats such as "Improved Sunder" and "Greater Sunder" and apply them to Spell Sunder? You may have addressed this earlier in the thread so I apologize for missing it. Assuming the answers to both is 'yes', I suggest making it explicit in the entry for Spell Sunder that Spell sunder provokes attacks of opportunity (as per normal sunders) and the sunder feats can be applied to Spell Sunder.
Re: Energy Channel (and Spellvoid's Anti-magic Fuel), it currently seems that an SB can use the ability to cast a spell even if he doesn't have a high enough Intelligence score to do so (e.g. casting a 6th level spell even though the SB has a 15 in Intelligence). Is this intentional? If not, I suggest adding to the ability's entry: "To cast a spell via Energy Channel, the Spellbreaker must have an Intelligence score equal to at least 10 + the spell's level"
Hi, I've thought about this some more and at 6 times a day, this power is already pretty limited. So I think we should leave it as a swift and then an immediate at level 11
Thanks Gulian and it was my pleasure.
The GM of my current game thinks that activating Spellvoid as a Swift is OP and thinks it should be a move action. I can see how he thinks it's OP but given its limited uses per day, perhaps that balances it out? Not sure if we should make it a move action and then at level 11 it can be a swift. Do you have any thoughts on this?
I adjusted each of the abilities and fully re-worked the level 13 ability. I provided design notes so folks can understand why I made some decisions and where I'm still on the fence. Constructive criticism is most welcome
At 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid gains an additional use of this ability per day (6/day at 18th). Additionally at 6th, 9th and every three levels thereafter, the Spellvoid can increase the radius of the burst by 5 feet, to a maximum of a 30-foot radius at level 15.
This ability replaces Spell Steal
Design note: Since this is a fairly limited resource and because I incorporated Gulian’s suggestion that folks need to make saves on all spells, including beneficial ones, I decided to allow the Spellvoid to project both his SR and Anti-magic Fortitude bonus. I also added a duration of 1 min/level in order to clarify that these benefits aren’t indefinitely shared once projected.
Improved Spellvoid (Su)
Moreover, at 11th level, the Spellvoid may choose to exclude a number of targets from being affected by his projected burst or he may choose to exempt a number of affected targets from needing to make saving throws for spells from which they are willing to receive effects. The number of targets the Spellvoid may exclude or exempt is equal to 1+his Charisma modifier (minimum of 1). By expending an additional daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can both exclude and exempt targets; excluded targets need not be the same as exempted targets, and vice versa.
This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude
Design note: I’m up in the air about allowing this ability to be activated as an immediate because it might be a tad OP. If I had to choose between immediate action or the exclude/exempt mechanic, I’d choose the exclude/exempt.
This ability functions the same as Energy Channel except (i) the Spellvoid can gain spellslots as high as 9th level, (ii) but he may only fill these spellslots with spells from the Spellvoid’s Anti-Magic Fuel spell list and said spell must be in his spellbook.
At 13th level, a Spellvoid can use 1st through 7th level spells. At 15th level, he can use 8th level spells. At 17th level, he can use 9th level spells.
Moreover, by expending a daily use of his Spellvoid ability, he can exclude a number of targets from the effects of any spell he casts (e.g. Anti-Magic Field, Dispel Magic, Mage’s Disjunction, etc.) equal to 1+Charisma modifier (minimum of 1).
This ability alters Energy Channel
Design Note: I felt limiting the spells a Spellvoid can actually fuel - to mostly anti-magic and protection spells - justifies being able to fuel up to level 9 spells. As I mention, the Spellvoid gives up a fair amount of versatility in order to fuel spells higher than 6th level. I added the exclusion mechanic for thematic reasons, but I’m not wedded to it…might be OP
Anti-Magic Fuel spell list
2nd level spells: Corruption Resistance; Enshroud Thoughts; Ghostbane Dirge; Protection from Chaos/Evil/Good/Law, Communal; Remove Paralysis; Resist Energy; See Invisibility; Silence; Surmount Affliction
3rd level spells: Banish Seeming; Cast Out; Devolution; Dispel Magic; Eldritch Fever; Invisibility Purge; Magic Circle Against Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Nondetection; Protection from Energy; Remove Curse; Resist Energy, Communal; Stunning Barrier, Communal
4th level spells: Bestow Curse (Lesser Spellblights only); Break Enchantment; Death Ward; Dimensional Anchor; Dismissal; Freedom of Movement; Protection from Energy, Communal; Spell Immunity; Ward Shield; True Form
5th level spells: Dispel Chaos/Evil/Good/Law; Disrupting Weapon; Ghostbane Dirge, Mass; Spell Resistance; Spell Immunity, Communal; Undeath Ward; True Seeing
6th level spells: Antimagic Field; Banishment; Dispel Magic, Greater; Globe of Invulnerability; Undeath to Death
7th level spells: Expend; Sequester; Spell Turning
8th level spells: Bestow Curse, Greater (Major Spellblights Only); Dimensional Lock; Mind Blank; Protection from Spells; Spell Immunity, Greater
9th level spells: Freedom; Mage’s Disjunction; Spell Immunity Greater, Communal; Wall of Suppression
Design note: the spells on the Anti-Magic Fuel spell list were chosen mostly because they undo or suppress magic/magical effects; provide protection from magic/magical effects; suppress or kill undead (because they are almost always animated via magic); or generally help the Spellvoid f-up a caster (e.g. Silence, See Invisibility; Bestow Curses (limited to Spellblights), Disrupting Weapon, etc.).
I understand that at 13th-plus level, many of the lower level spells might not get a lot of use during combat, but I wanted to provide the Spellvoid options for when he resists/sunders lower level spells instead of hard-coding into the class a spell list that starts with 4th or 5th level spells (which, IMO, are the spell levels that really start to get useful for in-combat play).
Thanks for the clarification. I suggest rewording the caster DC portion of Energy Channel to read:
"When casting in this way, the Spellbreaker calculates his caster level using his Spellbreaker levels for purposes of caster level checks (such as overcoming a target's SR). The DC of a spell cast in this way is calculated as normal, using the Spellbreaker's Intelligence modifier (e.g. 10 + spell level + INT mod)"
I added the bit about caster level to be more explicit about the mechanics of the spells cast via Energy Channel
In your description of Energy Channel you write:
"At 13th level, whenever the Spellbreaker succesfully resists or sunders a spell, he may channel the residual energy of that spell into his own spellcasting, effectively granting him a single spellslot equal to the level of the spell cast. However, he may not receive a spellslot above 6th level. When casting in this way, Spellbreaker’s casting DC is equal to 10 + half the spellbreaker’s level + INT."
What do you mean by casting DC? Do you mean that the Spellbreaker must make a concentration check with the DC being the above? Or perhaps the DC of the spell is what you have above instead of the normal 10+spell's level+Int mod? Clarification will be most appreciated.
Ok. FYI, I don't feel strongly about using Cha and Wis. It can be just Cha for the reasons you cite, or just Wis from their studies/philosophy of the need for policing magic (a fairly wise POV in my book). If you go the 1d4 route, that's understandable too. After all, it's a relatively small mechanical choice for a late-mid game class ability.
I have a quick question about Energy Channel. If the SB decides to use the residual energy of a spell he just resisted/sundered to power one of his own spells, that spell must be in his spellbook; is this correct? I think this is the way it works but it's not explicitly stated so wanted to check
Btw, regarding Spell Resistance and the Spellbreaker needing to identify a beneficial spell for him to be able to drop his SR, I suggest that if the spell is in the SB's spellbook, he doesn't need to identify the spell for him to be able to drop his SR. So if he has Fox's Cunning in his book and his wizard companion wants to cast it on him, no spell ID is needed. He can drop it as a free action on his turn or as an immediate if it's not his turn and his wizard can cast as normal.
This leads to an interesting choice point for the SB - have some strategically beneficial spells in his book (e.g. Haste, Enlarge Person, the various cure spells, etc.) or crank Spellcraft to make those checks for the beneficial spells (and hope you don't roll a 1) and then fill the book with spells you want to be able to counter with your SR.
Improved Spellvoid (Su)
This ability replaces Improved Anti-Magic Fortitude
I think I'd like to make the following edit to the above. Edit bolded
Improved Spellvoid (Su)
edit: @ Gulian, I didn't see that you had posted when I posted this. I think that's fine and making everyone in the area make the appropriate save to benefit from spells balances it out. While I'm not found of this mechanic, it could mesh well with my suggestion re: beneficial spells in the spellbook, perhaps folks in the area either don't need to make the saves or get a bonus based on 1+Will or 1+Cha mod (minimum of 1).
As for Spell Adept, no need to change anything, I think the two are sufficiently different even if they share some similar abilities
As for Spell Blank, mileage will vary with campaign, but I think it's pretty powerful to be able to walk into 2-3 encounters a day protecting yourself and your buddies from magic and this would pretty much such down any BBEG casters