But, yeah, the UM was originally planned for Strange Aeons, only that in the end, because of some shuffling around of ideas and the GM of the Ironfang Invasion campaign not liking the idea of an Alchemist joining the wilderness focused campaign, I'm playing an Alchemist in Strange Aeons, a Sylvan Sorcerer in Ironfang Invasion and an Unchained Monk in Iron Gods. Can't say that I don't love the variety of characters I can try out. :)
Sounds like a hella of a time!
Can't recommend the Dwarf FCB enough for Iron Gods...
Nah, I stayed with a vanilla human with the Dual Talented alternative racial. Found a hell of a good drawing for him, which influenced my choice a lot. I get why the FCB for Dwarves would be really good in Iron Gods (and the attributes would also work out pretty well, of course), but I'll just have to make do with Shattering Punch, when I get it at level 9 (after Flying Kick, of course). ^^ If I'd seen the FCB some months back I would probably have rethought my approach, but not one day before we start, I got the backstory all set and I'm already looking forward so much to the character himself. :) Still thank you for the pointer, though!
If you're ruling magic immunity to turn off Dragon instinct's damage bonus because it has the Arcane trait (this is the one that makes it magical, not Evocation)... well. I'll point out that runes make all weapons magical, so clearly magic immunity means nobody gets striking runes boosting damage at all (assuming the weapon can do any damage to begin with).
This all falls under the broad category of "too bad to be true". Magic immunity (which is more or less only Golem Antimagic) only makes any sense if it's interpreted to mean spells specifically.
So does magic immunity affect Dragon Rage or not? That would improve it for me. I was reading on dragon rage and it sure seemed like magic immunity shut it down for creatures like golems and will o wisps. I want to be wrong on that as dragon would be higher on the list if it wasn't shut down by magic immunity as well as having resist all and resist energy type further reduced its damage.
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The monk was not designed with the expectation that you spend 3 actions attacking. Really the only 2 classes where that works out is the fighter and the flurry ranger. Neither of whom have significant damage boosters and rely entirely on accuracy and feats that allow action compression. ( I guess technically the fighter gets a very small damage booster in the form of the legendary weapon specialization boost, so’ll change this statement to significant damage boosting)
Yes, they have the highest agile damage die option, which is poachable early for the fighter, who is a “attack as much as possible class, but the design of the monk is to stick and move. It is why you have so much speed and so many ways to move in ways that other creatures struggle to follow. You are setting yourself up for failure if your goal is to make as many attacks as possible and you pick the monk class. The compression of flurry of blows allows you to spend only one action a turn attacking and still get two hits in. This is better than sudden charge because you can split up the movement and not have to end the turn next to the enemy that you attacked twice. I think that is the real issue with flurry of blows being poachable, using it to get 2 more -8 attacks at best is not playing tactically.
The advantage of getting a legendary save is very undervalued by players, especially one that you get to pick in play after getting a sense of what the campaign is throwing at you. It’s not just +2 to that saving throw, it is never critically failing saves again and only ever taking half damage on a failure. With the feat that gives you a flat +1 to save vs magic, you can be almost immune to the most common magical attacks you face. Then there is the golden body capstone feat that I have never seen in play and doubt most GMs would allow because 20 fast heal all the time if you are not at 0 hp is already a cap stone but also getting deadly d12, when another level feat just gives you deadly d10? But level 20 feats are so far out of most players...
Knockdown feat also makes the fighter better for control as it is a MAPless knockdown.
And improving on AoO reaction based number of attacks make them better at controlling.
They can also pick up grappling and such too.
Fighter is better for many reasons than the monk at controlling and attacking. But the fighter is one of the best classes in the game, so it should not be surprising.
What do you mean bad at scaling? +1 is massive, it's the foundation for my Monks dealing crazy damage.Flurry of Blows: Very good action economy booster at low level.
Ki Strike: Poorly scaling ability and focus point cost for damage.
Stand Still: Reaction based attack keys off movement.
Ki Form: Better Ki strike type ability progression. Not a bad ability for damage boosting.
Monk's don't deal crazy damage, so not sure what you're talking about.
You want to explain this because your statement makes no sense.
Is it just me or am I taking crazy pills that this whole "prone lock" thing isn't really an issue. In the games I've been in, once a person is knocked prone we run it as (and this probably isn't correct by the rules) that if the person provokes, yes the penalties of prone apply, but they cannot be knocked prone because they still have the prone condition on them.
However, even if you ruled that the character loses prone penalties (and status) and then the AoO happens, and on the unlikely chance you crit (it's probably less than 25% chance to crit unless you're fighting enemies lower than your level), the enemy gets knocked back down once. Now they can stand up again, and they could move away or make other smart tactical decisions. They could also after this has happened once, crawl away. Sure, it might provoke but you could get yourself out of range (if they don't have reach weapons or weren't adjacent) and don't have to worry about getting knocked prone a second time. Also, if the enemy has been knocked prone once and didn't get killed that time, and lived long enough to get away and stand they should probably do something to help themselves not be in a situation to let that happen again.
Enemy's moving back towards their allies or even retreating to get help should be a thing.
I don't call it prone lock myself. They're usually dead shortly after getting knocked prone. They can't handle that much damage coming down on them generally at higher levels.
You knock them prone. The entire party gets to unload on them flat-footed including your casters and ranged strikers. Then he gets hit by reaction attacks when they stand. It's not pretty at all, especially against single boss creatures.
Ki strike scales +1d6 every 4 spell levels. You don't start casting level 5 spells until level 9 and level 9 spells until level 17. If you were imagining that the monk is primarily supposed to function as a striker, then blah blah blah.Ki Strike is about the +1 to attack, the damage is gravy.
You already have access to a lot of great rider effects, what you need is accuracy. So between finding different ways to lower enemy AC and increase your attack with the environment, the no-questions-asked +1 is magnificent to me.
BTW, have you written a 2E Monk guide? I loved your work on your 1E Unchained Monk guide (basically built my UM, which I finally can start playing tomorrow in a new Iron Gods campaign, around your Jabbing Striker build), so I'd be very interested to see what you might have written up about the 2E Monk.I tried! But I found out I didn't have anything interesting to say.
I did the 1E UnMonk guide because I thought building them was hard but rewarding, and that sharing that knowledge could be a good thing for the community.
2E Monk... get your ability scores right, pick your favorite feats, find a use for your Third Action... you can't really go wrong.
I really like the Monk of this edition, I do! I just feel like a lot of the classes don't have a deep mechanical identity, and because they don't, it's tough to say something interesting about one class in particular that doesn't apply to the rest.
EDIT: WAAAAIT is this the same Jabbing Style Monk than the one you posted in TWENTY TWENTY ONE? DAMN MAN. What happened with the Strange Aeons campaign?
A +1 status bonus to attack is what your post is about? A bonus that doesn't stack with Inspire Courage or any other status bonus to attack? For one flurry?
That is not good scaling. If the status bonus to attack scaled like heroism then it would be much better.
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The monk was not designed with the expectation that you spend 3 actions attacking. Really the only 2 classes where that works out is the fighter and the flurry ranger.They literally get an extra action of everyone else until their power gets poached at level 10.
What else are they supposed to do except skirmish or flurry?I mean they do have some good two and threee action attacks like One Inch Punch and Wold Drag that are the opposite of Flurry of Blows in that they do extra stuff all for the cost of one MAP. A few of the Ki powers are OK but you will run out of them.
What are you as a Monk supposed to do with your extra action that everyone else doesn't get? I'm not seeing much in class support for anything.
The advantage of getting a legendary save is very undervalued by players.It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.
Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.
AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it. As I said, Monks have a flexible save, by the time you get legendary with it, you are picking between 2 saves and should have a good idea which of the two will be more valuable. By level 13, it is rare that AC is the problem with difficult encounters. It is monsters with save or suck mechanics, many of which are incredibly brutal. Being incapable of critically failing fort saves is often incredibly powerful, especially if you are fighting lots of undead, or enemies using a lot of poison. If you are facing a lot of casters who are laying down AOE effects, you can go ref. Will is generally not needed, but in a very intrigue heavy campaign or with a lot of psychic enemies, it might be worth it.
I think it is starting to make sense why folks in this thread are frustrated. The monk is much too versatile to be the single target striking machine that is the fighter. It’s chassis is way too robust to just expect to get to fighter level single target damage, but in a one on one fight, my money would be on the monk.
The monk was not designed with the expectation that you spend 3 actions attacking. Really the only 2 classes where that works out is the fighter and the flurry ranger.They literally get an extra action of everyone else until their power gets poached at level 10.
What else are they supposed to do except skirmish or flurry?I mean they do have some good two and threee action attacks like One Inch Punch and Wold Drag that are the opposite of Flurry of Blows in that they do extra stuff all for the cost of one MAP. A few of the Ki powers are OK but you will run out of them.
What are you as a Monk supposed to do with your extra action that everyone else doesn't get? I'm not seeing much in class support for anything.
The advantage of getting a legendary save is very undervalued by players.It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.
AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it. As I said, Monks have a flexible save, by the time you get legendary with it, you are picking between 2 saves and should have a good idea which of the two will be more valuable. By level 13, it is rare that AC is the problem with difficult encounters. It is monsters with save or suck mechanics, many of which are incredibly brutal. Being incapable of critically failing fort saves is often incredibly powerful, especially if you are fighting lots of undead, or enemies using a lot of poison. If you are facing a lot of casters who are laying down AOE effects, you can go ref. Will is generally not needed, but in a very intrigue heavy campaign or with a lot of psychic enemies, it might be worth it.
I think it is starting to make sense why folks in this thread are frustrated. The monk is much too versatile to be...
You can take Flurry of Blows to get this same thing on a full caster with better results by level 10.
I've taken Monk Archetype with Flurry of Blows on a druid and I do more damage than a monk.
Monk has weaker casting. They never get Legendary casting and if you focus on Strength or Dexterity, you also never get maximum casting statistic as well.
Whereas a class like a druid doesn't need it because they get maxed out casting stat and have plenty of more potent spells with full casting as well as using wild shape or a battle form spell with Flurry to do similar damage.
Battle Form spells stack against Monk unarmed damage well.
You are right. Flurry of Blows is amazing for casters, especially druids. It's in fact more amazing for full casters than it is for monks unfortunately.
Which is why I wish Flurry of Blows had some kind of upgrade to make it better for the monk, even a feat upgrading it would be nice.
The monk was not designed with the expectation that you spend 3 actions attacking. Really the only 2 classes where that works out is the fighter and the flurry ranger.They literally get an extra action of everyone else until their power gets poached at level 10.
What else are they supposed to do except skirmish or flurry?I mean they do have some good two and threee action attacks like One Inch Punch and Wold Drag that are the opposite of Flurry of Blows in that they do extra stuff all for the cost of one MAP. A few of the Ki powers are OK but you will run out of them.
What are you as a Monk supposed to do with your extra action that everyone else doesn't get? I'm not seeing much in class support for anything.
The advantage of getting a legendary save is very undervalued by players.It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.
AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it. As I said, Monks have a flexible save, by the time you get legendary with it, you are picking between 2 saves and should have a good idea which of the two will be more valuable. By level 13, it is rare that AC is the problem with difficult encounters. It is monsters with save or suck mechanics, many of which are incredibly brutal. Being incapable of critically failing fort saves is often incredibly powerful, especially if you are fighting lots of undead, or enemies using a lot of poison. If you are facing a lot of casters who are laying down AOE effects, you can go ref. Will is generally not needed, but in a very intrigue heavy campaign or with a lot of psychic enemies, it might be worth it.
I think it is starting to make sense why folks in this thread are frustrated. The monk is much too versatile to be...
Asking for an upgrade to Flurry of Blows or Legendary Unarmed Strike Proficiency will not get a monk fighter damage.
Fighter damage is from the effectiveness of their overall abilities, not just the raw accuracy and bigger weapon die.
Fighters get upgrades to Attack of Opportunity.
Rogues upgrades to sneak attack.
Barbarians rage upgrades.
Even swashbucklers get better finishers and the panache generation is more their issue.
Rangers get upgrades to precision damage and hunt prey.
Monk is the only class that doesn't get damage upgrades to Flurry of Blows and it shows up in their weak damage numbers. The versatile chassis doesn't offset this.
I still don't know why you think the fighter doesn't have a versatile chassis. Fighter is incredibly versatile due to having lots of open feat slots. Every fighter I've ever played had the ability to have a MC archetype even without playing Free Archetype or anything else due to plenty of open feats and Combat Flexibility allowing you to change combat feats as needed.
The fighter is one of the most versatile chassis in the game on top of its incredible damage dealing and very good defenses. Bravery is every bit as good as a Legendary save given Frightened is one of the most common conditions in the game applied by monsters.
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Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.
For sure but where is the support in class for these other things? There is none. It is just a general miasma of feats with no focus.
It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it.
Rubbish. 3 times is a guess as to how often these effects show up, and the statement was A save, not saveS.
Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.For sure but where is the support in class for these other things? There is none. It is just a general miasma of feats with no focus.
It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it.Rubbish. 3 times is a guess as to how often these effects show up, and the statement was A save, not saveS.
Where is the in class support for Ki spell casting, mobility and stances? I would say there is tons of feat support for this. Using items doesn’t really require class based feat support. You are a monk, you have 2 open hands.
I understand that the legendary is only one save, but you get to choose it after getting to know the campaign and figuring out what kind of saves are causing you trouble. Almost no other class gets that option and the legendary boost seriously makes that save no longer a problem. High level creatures have very nasty auras and abilities and crit failing a save at high levels is often instant death or unconsciousness.
Bravery is good, but fear is not an instant death effect and many classes have ways of helping others lessen fear. With no other knowledge of the campaign, becoming immune to crit failure on Fort saves is probably the safest option, but lots of lower level casters can be dangerous to many characters by casting AoE spells. But probably having your reflex save at master with evasion is enough to cover you in that situation anyway. When you are fighting difficult monsters the risk of crit failing fortitude saves is definitely not trivial
Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.For sure but where is the support in class for these other things? There is none. It is just a general miasma of feats with no focus.
It is nice but it is not everything. AC is 3 times as important as a save.AC is only 3 times as valuable as saves if you are exclusively fighting things that target it.Rubbish. 3 times is a guess as to how often these effects show up, and the statement was A save, not saveS.
Where is the in class support for Ki spell casting, mobility and stances? I would say there is tons of feat support for this. Using items doesn’t really require class based feat support. You are a monk, you have 2 open hands.
I understand that the legendary is only one save, but you get to choose it after getting to know the campaign and figuring out what kind of saves are causing you trouble. Almost no other class gets that option and the legendary boost seriously makes that save no longer a problem. High level creatures have very nasty auras and abilities and crit failing a save at high levels is often instant death or unconsciousness.
Bravery is good, but fear is not an instant death effect and many classes have ways of helping others lessen fear. With no other knowledge of the campaign, becoming immune to crit failure on Fort saves is probably the safest option, but lots of lower level casters can be dangerous to many characters by casting AoE spells. But probably having your reflex save at master with evasion is enough to cover you in that situation anyway. When you are fighting difficult monsters the risk of crit failing fortitude saves is definitely not trivial
The Legendary save can be nice, but bravery occurs more often in my experience given the number of creatures with fear aura, intimidate, and gazes. It's a real common ability on top of spells like phantasmal killer or weird.
Saves vary a lot. Even with a +2 above what everyone else will have in a single save since every martial with General Feats usually ends at Master across the board with most martials having one Legendary, it isn't as valuable as the AC or things that work automatically like Bravery.
Ki spells don't have an improvement, they have variance in what they do. There is no upgrade to Ki Strike. It's more situational ki abilities.
You can get those with other classes to with archetypes, which further shows nearly everything a monk can do can be taken by another class in some fashion.
A fighter can take some casting MC, build up casting to master level, and have spells to cast and pick up focus spells if they so choose.
Every class has their damage enhancers improve on top of being able to build versatility into the class with feats.
There isn't much unique to the monk to make them competitive.
Though in dual class games the monk becomes more attractive. A dual class druid/monk is pretty awesome, though a druid fighter would likely be just as good if not better.
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Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.For sure but where is the support in class for these other things? There is none. It is just a general miasma of feats with no focus.
I guess the same could be said for Fighter feats. They are the 2 classes where feat choice creates their subclass.
That is indeed the incorrect way to run it. And you may have missed the point. Yes, the enemy can get up again or move away, but look at how many actions have been lost doing that. By the power of prone you've burned a pair of enemy actions while doing a bunch of damage. If baseline success is 60% and the enemy is level+3, then fighter is looking at a 55% hit rate and 5% crit rate before we consider the obvious de/buffs. At minimum you're probably looking at flat-footed/flank circ -2, status +1, status -1 for a 25% chance to crit a +3 boss. If the enemy is under synesthesia that's another 10% chance to crit. If you've got another source of aid, that's another 5-20%. If you've got something bigger than inspire courage or heroism 3rd that's another 5-10%. You can pretty easily reach a 50~65% crit chance on stand which, let's remember, also refreshes the duration on phantasmal doorknob.
A good party has no issue doing terrible things to big enemies and lower level enemies just mean you can use less for the same result as the level scaling does the work for you. Fighter's second reaction makes trying to stand a second time particularly painful as well.
When auto-prone on crit goes away though, not much will change. Phantasmal doorknob crit blind isn't going anywhere. Bola ammo prone on hit and stun on crit isn't going anywhere. You can still just prone normally with knockdown or athletics trip. All that's lost is the chain prone comedy hour and the occasional opening prone on sudden charge. It's annoying but not the end of the world.
I would make the argument that if it's better for the game, then it's not an incorrect ruling. And as you point out, given how many ways there are to make an enemy prone the fact that they might be able to stand up and do things on their turn isn't super relevant because they'll go down again. And as someone else pointed out, if everyone piles on the same enemy they're probably dead after they go prone before they'll get another turn. I don't think saying the enemy doesn't stay prone when they stand is the incorrect ruling. But I also don't think the chance of getting prone crit locked it that high, unless as you point out everyone is one the pain train for that enemy. Of course if that's the case the prone honestly doesn't matter that much and they're going to die before they can do anything anyways.
I’ve done the maul fighter controller prone build. It is absolutely the most effective way to fight higher level enemies. You use improved knock down at first to get the enemy prone (still hoping for a crit to activate the greater fearsome rune, but once they are there, that is when you start spending hero points to keep them there. If they attack from the ground, you’ve taken away a 2 level advantage. If they stand up, you’ve wasted an action, but your chance to crit on the AoO is high enough that using a hero point on the attack gets into the 30 to 45% chance. If your fighter can reliably deny anctions and debuff a boss monster, all while making regular attacks, targeting only AC, then the strategy of the whole team becomes pretty obvious, and it is devastatingly effective. The only better build (for fighting solo higher level monsters) is the fighter using a flail with reach. I have seen other attempts with other martials using various trip like abilities to try to do the same thing, but by level 10 to 12 it becomes super apparent that the fighter is better because they have the best accuracy for targeting AC and the ability to do everything you want your debuffy casters to do with just making regular attacks/ the occasional improved knock down. Eventually the fighter has swipe too and then, with team work positioning, you are accomplishing this against 2 targets pretty regularly.
It is a good tactic to be the “top tier build” because it requires and encourages teamwork. You pass on several pure damage options, and let your allies target the prone, frightened 2 enemy after first having helped you set up your crit (with buffs, healing and aiding). It is probably the closest thing to the PF1 “god wizard” that PF2 has, and it only really doesn’t work against super obvious targets like oozes who are going to be immune to mental and crits and be really bad targets to spend actions moving to surround.It will stay a good build with the change to hammer and flail crit specialization, but it be much less reliable when improved knock down is the only way to knock prone an enemy by targeting AC. Circumstance penalties to reflex saves are much harder to come by and buffing class DC is much harder than buffing attacks.
What does this have to do with the monk? Fighter’s poaching Flurry was never the best fighter build anyway. Doing the most damage by making the most little attacks is a build very susceptible to resistances. Double slice is more reliable that flurry of blows for landing 2 successful hits that will combine to go through resistances.
Even using both, by using monastic weapons, to get 4 attacks on 3 actions will not be more effective for the party than having a control hammer/flail fighter. So the fact a fighter can pursue a second tier build by MCing into monk and be a better pure striker than the monk isn’t really that big a deal. Pure striking is second tier in PF2, and it’s not really what monks are built to do anyway. See the magus picking up the psychic dedication to be a better striker than the psychic. Almost never will any pure striker one shot a more powerful solo monster. If the creature isn’t one shot, debuffed or action denied after the strikers attack, the monster might very well have an ability that takes one or more PCs completely out of the fight , especially if they have 3 actions to do it.
The monk is a little goofy. It has a lot of cinematic feats, a lot of very powerful but incapacitation control options, and then a lot of feats that make it very tanky and a pain to target. It is just not a specialist class and so “best at…” is not really it’s thing, other than sticking around, doing decent enough damage, and being able to get on any back row target quickly and being tough enough to survive there as long as the whole of the enemy forces don’t focus fire on the monk. But the monk is definitely a skirmisher class and if moving in combat feels like wasting actions to you, you won’t be happy with a monk.
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I guess the same could be said for Fighter feats. They are the 2 classes where feat choice creates their subclass.Flurry lets monks spend 1 or 2 actions casting spells (like Ki spells) moving around, using items, using stances, etc, and still get two solid attacks in a round.For sure but where is the support in class for these other things? There is none. It is just a general miasma of feats with no focus.
I think the big difference is that the fighter feats are siloed into "different combat strategies" like archery, free hand, two-weapon, reach, big weapon, sword & board, etc. So while you could take a bunch of different feats from a bunch of different silos, since your polearm guy might want to pick up a bow from time to time, there are sort of coherent themes relevant to combat strategies that run through the Fighter Feats.
But on the other hand there's relatively little "take all these feats together to enable a strategy" since a lot of monks don't even bother taking the upgrade to their stance. Even though the monk has a few themes like "grappling" and "movement" the bulk of monk feats are the levels that define a character are either stances or ki spells none of which has anything to do with each other. Like your ability to cast wholeness of body is unrelated to your ability to cast abundant step except for "each supplies a focus point" and you really only want one or two stance feats.
I think some kind of internal synergy that helps out the strategies that don't have a lot of feat support would help a lot. Like if you want to be a Finesse Skirmisher, there's not a lot of feat support for that except "you get a d8 agile finesse attack" and "you get movement from your class."
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I think some kind of internal synergy that helps out the strategies that don't have a lot of feat support would help a lot. Like if you want to be a Finesse Skirmisher, there's not a lot of feat support for that except "you get a d8 agile finesse attack" and "you get movement from your class."
This is my original point – and why I think it'd be good for the Remaster to give the Monk the Magus/Swashbuckler/Barbarian treatment and find more spaces to build a stronger mechanical identity for the class.
I imagine something like:
- Pick 2 stances at Lv1
- Pick a 3rd one at Lv7, get "advanced" benefits of each stance
- Pick a 4th one at Lv15, get "master" benefits of each stance
I'd probably take away the Lv1 Feat, reduce the power budget of the Stances, and move some of the class benefits to the stances (like resistance-bypass from Adamantine Strikes and the speed boost).
You could reasonably fit a 5th stance some where too.
I still think giving monk Legendary Unarmed Strike or an improvement to flurry of blows would be enough to put monk damage up enough to make them competitive. Maybe a better upgrade to ki strike like making the duration a minute would do it too, though it would force everyone to take Ki Strike and should probably just become a class feature free focus spell like Paladin lay on hands.
Or you could make Ki Strike an innate class ability that requires 1 action to activate to per round. It's pretty rare even a monk likes rolling that third attack given it is such a low chance to hit.
There was a lot of talk during the playtest whether to make inherently magical, or opt in magical. On surveys people said they really like having it be opt in, but I wonder if I’m retrospect, and with the boost that is coming to focus spells, if it needs to be something more like a hard opt out: get a damage or accuracy boost in exchange for locking yourself out of Ki spells. But that doesn’t really work since any martial can pick up focus spells, the big difference with monks and champions is they get built in scaling proficiency, and the only way to lose that would probably be a class archetype.
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Obviously there's a midpoint here -
Or you could make Ki Strike an innate class ability that requires 1 action to activate to per round.
This is exactly the same thing that I'm saying: FoB is one half of the puzzle, the other part of the puzzle is a Third Action Sink.
I think it should be a Style Dance, Deriven thinks it should be a "reward" action in case you don't use a third action.
Doesn't need to be a magical thing, it just needs to be a thing Monks do after Move + FoB regularly... and that's where you put a subclass.
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As long as they make it interesting, I'm good with it. Monk's need something.
I played three or four monks so far. For about the first 10 levels and with just striking runes, life isn't so bad. But once the other classes get that Greater Striking Rune combined with their upgrades to innate class damage boosters and use Feats to also boost their innate damage booster, the monk really falls off.
Barbarian and rogue should be happy rage and sneak attack progress so their schtick can't be stolen to the point it makes them look like weak options.
Best part of the champion's reaction can be taken by the fighter, but at least Champion's Reaction upgrades for defensive options and it can be upgraded by feats that cannot be taken by other classes. So it leaves the Champion in a good state as the ultimate tank class.
The monk is in a place where they have nothing that really seems worth taking or that upgrades their Unarmed Strike damage at level 10 to a point it equals what other classes do. Heaven's Thunder is the only style that has a damage booster for an action, the rest are a style feat to add variation with no actual damage booster.
Monk doesn't get this for some reason. Every other class but the monk seems to get an upgrade to their innate damage boosting ability at level 10 or with Specialization or Greater Specialization. It's very strange this wasn't accounted for in the class design math.
I mean, monks don't get an upgrade to their damage mechanic because their damage mechanic already scales naturally, like a fighter's.
Rage and Sneak Attack scale because they're damage increases, which means they're measured up against the monster-HP treadmill, while flurry and a fighter's +2 automatically benefit from the damage increases you acquire naturally. Strictly speaking, mechanics like Rage actually lose, not gain, relative value with levels.
The monk's problem is just that their best offensive options can be taken by other classes, that its AC bonus ends up being marginal compared to some of its competitors, and that flurry's underlying design means it's not really strong as just a DPR mechanic.
Instead the monk is supposed to benefit from lots of soft power (action flexibility, mobility enhancements, some utility) but it struggles to benefit from that both because of how adventures are designed and because it doesn't have as many tools to enable its own flexibility as it should.
I mean, monks don't get an upgrade to their damage mechanic because their damage mechanic already scales naturally, like a fighter's.
Rage and Sneak Attack scale because they're damage increases, which means they're measured up against the monster-HP treadmill, while flurry and a fighter's +2 automatically benefit from the damage increases you acquire naturally. Strictly speaking, mechanics like Rage actually lose, not gain, relative value with levels.
The monk's problem is just that their best offensive options can be taken by other classes, that its AC bonus ends up being marginal compared to some of its competitors, and that flurry's underlying design means it's not really strong as just a DPR mechanic.
Instead the monk is supposed to benefit from lots of soft power (action flexibility, mobility enhancements, some utility) but it struggles to benefit from that both because of how adventures are designed and because it doesn't have as many tools to enable its own flexibility as it should.
The fighter's Attack of Opportunity is their increased damage mechanic. It has feats that improve it as you level. I didn't believe Attack of Opportunity was an increased damage mechanic when it was discussed until I played a fighter, but the fighter truly does improve on their attacks of opportunity.
They set up the trigger with Trip or something similar, then activate their Attack of Opportunity. You can build this activation a variety of ways with Trip being the most efficient and effective. But spellcasting can trigger, drawing a weapon, picking up a weapon after disarm, knocking someone back and forcing them to come back at you with a reach weapon.
The Attack of Opportunity acts a damage enhancer for the fighter. The fighter can build up attack of opportunity with Combat Reflexes at level 10.
This is how the fighter does such crazy damage by combining regular attacks with reaction attacks. You can also create flexible reaction attacks that combine well with Combat Reflexes by adding in Champion's Reaction or even Opportune Backstab by level 16 for different types of fighters.
It all works together to become very additive to damage. After playing PF1, I really wasn't buying the reaction attack of opportunity as all that good. But in PF2 you can really set AoOs up to trigger much better than PF1 as a fighter. This is what ultimately makes the fighter so powerful. Increased accuracy with the ability to set up triggers for reaction based MAPless attacks. It's why they don't need rage or a similar type of power to be the top martial damage dealer.
Two-weapon fighting isn't a great fighting style for the fighter, but it does indeed have upgrades where they can equal monk number of attacks with much greater accuracy with Double Slice, Two-weapon Flurry, and Agile Grace along with Attack of Opportunity and Reaction based attacks.
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Thought of an small buff that wouldn't invalidate current existing two action feats and would enable Monks the chance to attack more:
If they land the two FoB hits, their MAP doesn't increase beyond 5(-4) until the end of Turn (improves third strike and Haste). This could also ripple into Ki Strike and allow it to break the One-Flurry-Per round rule.
In short: ORA! ORA! ORA! ORA!
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I could also see something like "if you crit on a FoB strike, your MAP doesn't increase" as a higher level FoB improvement since exploding dice are fun.
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Would it be too much to ask that at level 9...
... for FoB to get an Improvement that just flat out has the two FoB Strikes function WITH the current MAP as if they were a single Strike and NOT count toward adding to it? Since they're already "behind the ball" for math it doesn't really push them any further toward being Crit specialists which seems to be the Fighter and Gunslinger "thing" but it makes sure that you're not just whiffing more often than not when you do try to flurry. Thoughts?
I remember during the playtest Flurry didn't get a MAP increase. That was too strong at low level, but would probably be fine at higher level given other classes have the means to generate more MAPless attacks with reaction based attacks or do flat out more damage.
If flurry operated like the playtest at around level 11 to 13, probably work in fine.
When the monk gets Master Strikes, their flurry becomes MAPless FLurry like the playtest or some kind of reduction to the second attack similar to Double Slice.
I love Monks. Of my last five characters, 4 have been different kinds of Monks. Some things on my wish list for Monks Remastered are:
• FoB getting an upgrade as a level 5 class feature that allows the two FoB strikes both use the current MAP as Themetricsystem suggests. By making this a class feature it can’t be poached by others gaining FoB via Archetype dedication so Monks are “better” at FoB than a Fighter with FoB via Monk Archetype
• Ki Strike and Ki Rush are combined into a single focus spell that allows one to do one or the other (but not both) when the focus point is spent. Call it something like Tap Ki.
• Ki Strike damage scales like Rogue’s Precision damage and if that’s too aggressive make Ki Strike damage be a 1d8 and have it scale like Precision Ranger’s Precision damage.
• Monastic Weaponry is a class feature at level 1
• Crit Specialization with Unarmed Strikes is a class feature at level 1
• Brawling Focus can then be reworked (and renamed) that gives crit specialization with Monk Weapons
• If the devs want mobility to be the Monk’s schtick, then certain Monk feats that enhance mobility should be made class features such as Dancing Leaf, Guarded Mobility, Wall Run, Winding Flow. These can become class features at the same level as their current feat levels. Full disclosure, based on my game play experience, I don’t think the Monk’s extra speed is a major feature/boon like the devs seem to think it is, but turning some of the mobility feats into class features could help make the Monk’s mobility something special and unique to them.
• Agree that Stance Savant and Master of Many Styles come on waaaaaaay too late. I’d like to see Stance Savant as a level 4 Feat and Master of Many Styles a level 8 or 10 feat.
So for monks people have played, what have you done with your 3rd action on turns where move, flurry, move wasn't the routine?
- For a Mountain Style monk I used Mountain's Stronghold for the ersatz "raise a shield" after level 6, before level 6 I used an actual shield.
- For a Finesse Tiger Style Monk I took the Bard Dedication for Inspire Courage after level 8.
- For a Staff-Fighting Monk, I had the Parry option and several other from the Staff Acrobat archetype.
- For a another Finesse monk that eventually landed on Jellyfish Style after some retraining I took the Psychic archetype to activate Psi Strikes when I cast Shield.
- For a Monastic Archer I took Jalmeray Heavenseeker both for Heaven's Thunder and because "Steal the Sky" on a bow is awesome.
So most of the time my preferred "third action" has generally been achieved by archetyping. There should probably be more options in class.
I love Monks. Of my last five characters, 4 have been different kinds of Monks. Some things on my wish list for Monks Remastered are:
• FoB getting an upgrade as a level 5 class feature that allows the two FoB strikes both use the current MAP as Themetricsystem suggests. By making this a class feature it can’t be poached by others gaining FoB via Archetype dedication so Monks are “better” at FoB than a Fighter with FoB via Monk Archetype
• Ki Strike and Ki Rush are combined into a single focus spell that allows one to do one or the other (but not both) when the focus point is spent. Call it something like Tap Ki.
• Ki Strike damage scales like Rogue’s Precision damage and if that’s too aggressive make Ki Strike damage be a 1d8 and have it scale like Precision Ranger’s Precision damage.
• Monastic Weaponry is a class feature at level 1
• Crit Specialization with Unarmed Strikes is a class feature at level 1
• Brawling Focus can then be reworked (and renamed) that gives crit specialization with Monk Weapons
• If the devs want mobility to be the Monk’s schtick, then certain Monk feats that enhance mobility should be made class features such as Dancing Leaf, Guarded Mobility, Wall Run, Winding Flow. These can become class features at the same level as their current feat levels. Full disclosure, based on my game play experience, I don’t think the Monk’s extra speed is a major feature/boon like the devs seem to think it is, but turning some of the mobility feats into class features could help make the Monk’s mobility something special and unique to them.
• Agree that Stance Savant and Master of Many Styles come on waaaaaaay too late. I’d like to see Stance Savant as a level 4 Feat and Master of Many Styles a level 8 or 10 feat.
Some of these things I agree with having baked into the class, like Stance Savant. And improving Flurry of Blows at higher levels.
However, the Mobility options shouldn't be part of the basic chassis, they're quite powerful on their own and when they truly matter, they are effective action enhancers. However, I think some feats should be combined. Wall Run and Water Walk should be combined, Guarded Mobility could be combined with Winding Flow.
Stance Savant should be a 8th level class feature, maybe even lower. The class could really use 4 or 5 feats that enable Stance Switching.
Things like: Move and Switch, FoB and switch in between attacks (ending on the stance of the second attack), Combining a Switch instance into an action from the Stance (Like the Rage Improvements), Special Action that enables using an attack from another Stance without breaking requirements (Akin to Dual-Handed Assault).
Fuse Stance should be a level 12 or 14 class feat. Stance Master should be the Capstone, allowing you to benefit from ALL the stances you have at once and ignoring mandatory attack restrictions. You don't combine attacks, but you have access to all of them at a whim and all the bonuses the stances provide apply. That's Capstone-worthy right there!
The way Monk Stances are set up right now, they are absolutely amazing class features (they add so much playstyle changes and character concept by themselves), but they are also very rigid. This is definitely one of the refinements the class needs.
Sorry for the tangent above. Back to my counterarguments, I don't think Monks should have Critical Specializations at level 1. I don't think any class has that so early. The earliest being (that I know of) being the Rogue Ruffian with a conditional Crit. Spec (when enemies are Flat-Footed).
Looking at other classes, you're right about crit specialization so I think crit specialization with Unarmed Strikes should be a level 5 class feature so it matches when Fighters, Barbarians, etc get it.
I understand what you're saying about mobility enhancing feats being too powerful as class features although I do think that Dancing Leaf should be a class feature. I can be won over to what you're saying re: combining them and I'd make the combined Water Step + Wall Run available at level 6.
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Looking at other classes, you're right about crit specialization so I think crit specialization with Unarmed Strikes should be a level 5 class feature so it matches when Fighters, Barbarians, etc get it.
I understand what you're saying about mobility enhancing feats being too powerful as class features although I do think that Dancing Leaf should be a class feature. I can be won over to what you're saying re: combining them and I'd make the combined Water Step + Wall Run available at level 6.
Personally, I think it's weird that Crit Spec is a tax feat for Monks while other classes get them as a byproduct of their Expert/Master improvements or as a side bonus from a class choice (Weapon Ally/Ruffian Rogue). I think it's definitely a consequence of first print issues. And since the class wasn't in a bad state like Alchemists or Witches, it never got much attention.
Hopefully we get to see some of the ideas discussed here appear in one form or another.
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So for monks people have played, what have you done with your 3rd action on turns where move, flurry, move wasn't the routine?
- For a Mountain Style monk I used Mountain's Stronghold for the ersatz "raise a shield" after level 6, before level 6 I used an actual shield.
- For a Finesse Tiger Style Monk I took the Bard Dedication for Inspire Courage after level 8.
- For a Staff-Fighting Monk, I had the Parry option and several other from the Staff Acrobat archetype.
- For a another Finesse monk that eventually landed on Jellyfish Style after some retraining I took the Psychic archetype to activate Psi Strikes when I cast Shield.
- For a Monastic Archer I took Jalmeray Heavenseeker both for Heaven's Thunder and because "Steal the Sky" on a bow is awesome.So most of the time my preferred "third action" has generally been achieved by archetyping. There should probably be more options in class.
Wolf Style Damage Monk:
At higher level, you're often using 2 action Wolf Drag to prone the target, then flurry for three attacks. Your weapons are agile, so not bad to keep attacking against mooks.
I do move in and out of battle as I usually pick up Rogue MC and Mobility with my wolf monks.
Dragon Style Defender Monk:
Keep attacking or raise shield. I like to use Dragon Style for my Champion MC tank monks for the MAPless reaction attack with a higher die. So I usually raise shield, flurry, and then third attack or move to set up flanks or position for Champion's Reaction.
Caster Monk Druid:
I often use a shield on my druid monks at low level, then move off it at higher level depending on the enemy. You don't get flurry until level 10 and by then the druid has better wild shapes for use with flurry.
So in normal form I'll flurry, then Electric Arc. Or cast some other spell. Otherwise, wild shape and flurry attack and move depending on the battlefield set up. Air elemental form is great for flanking in three dimensions. Earth for raw damage. The dragon forms offer breath weapons and reach with interesting attacks.
Monk MC is great for druids. Not bad for almost any caster due to being able to pick up Flurry at level 10.
I do find that you have to use move actions to change targets a lot of almost every class. So my third action is often taken up moving in battle depending on how the targets are spread or if you're moving out of a flank.
Yeah. High level monk feats don't feel great. That's why I usually take rogue MC because Rogue Outflank and Opportune Riposte are better than most level 12 and 16 monk feats.
I see the potential for ki body, but haven't tried it yet.
I really thought mobility on the monk would be better until I watched my fellow martials get pounded because the highest AC character moved out of battle. The rogue is especially vulnerable of the monk moves out of combat harming its flanking and that class really can't take a beating. But the monk moving out of battle just leaves more attacks directed at other characters, so I tend to stay in melee range to absorb attacks.
Mobility can be valuable, but only in the right circumstances and groups. I've found theoretical mobility is better than practical mobility in play.
You don't need a lot of mobility to flank. Sudden Charge is what I refer to as practical mobility versus the monk having 65 to 70 feet of movement in one action but no need to travel that far too often for most combats.
Though I do like monk mobility with flight for three dimensional flanking. It shines a bit brighter in those circumstances.
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I really hope that they remove the sentence about only being able to use stances during encounter mode. There are many stances that would be useful outside of combat.
I really hope that they remove the sentence about only being able to use stances during encounter mode. There are many stances that would be useful outside of combat.
I never enforced the in an encounter versus out of encounter rules.
The one drawback of Sudden Charge is that the mobility is only useful to set up a normal Strike. If you've got another good two-action activity, it won't help with positioning it. For instance, Wolf Drag.You don't need a lot of mobility to flank. Sudden Charge is what I refer to as practical mobility versus the monk having 65 to 70 feet of movement in one action but no need to travel that far too often for most combats.
Though I do like monk mobility with flight for three dimensional flanking. It shines a bit brighter in those circumstances.
Monks don't use Sudden Charge much, mostly barbs and fighters. For them it's great because their single strikes are as much as a monk does with two strikes a lot time.
I mean, yes, but those classes have plenty of interesting and useful 2-action attack activities of their own.Monks don't use Sudden Charge much, mostly barbs and fighters. For them it's great because their single strikes are as much as a monk does with two strikes a lot time.The one drawback of Sudden Charge is that the mobility is only useful to set up a normal Strike. If you've got another good two-action activity, it won't help with positioning it. For instance, Wolf Drag.You don't need a lot of mobility to flank. Sudden Charge is what I refer to as practical mobility versus the monk having 65 to 70 feet of movement in one action but no need to travel that far too often for most combats.
Though I do like monk mobility with flight for three dimensional flanking. It shines a bit brighter in those circumstances.
I don't think they have plenty, at least from an optimizers perspective.
If you can't close with one action and use a 2 action attack, then you use Sudden Charge. If you can do that as a barb or fighter, then monk mobility is not particularly advantageous.
As far as fighters go, Knockdown and Debilitating Shot at their main very attractive two action attacks.
For a barbarian it is often better to swing more often since rage damage adds per attack, so a two action attack that only adds rage damage yourself often ends up being inferior for the barb class.
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I feel the mobility and FoB of the Monk give them more choice of actions.
They can, for example, move to the enemy, double strike (aka Flurry) and, as needed, either move to another better position on the battlefield or raise a shield.
Fighter or Barbarian will Sudden Charge and either make a second strike or raise a shield or move (though less than the Monk). But not two of these.
I feel the mobility and FoB of the Monk give them more choice of actions.
They can, for example, move to the enemy, double strike (aka Flurry) and, as needed, either move to another better position on the battlefield or raise a shield.
Fighter or Barbarian will Sudden Charge and either make a second strike or raise a shield or move (though less than the Monk). But not two of these.
If the fighter and barb charge and do the same damage as your flurry, then they are equally effective.
The extra action to move or raise a shield, why can't the barb or fighter move with that third action after sudden charge since Sudden Charge is like three actions for the cost of two with better escalating damage than the monk.
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What if the proposed FoB improvement we are discussing quite simply removed the Flourish Trait from FoB?
Yes, it would lead to a TRULY spamable FoB but... isn't that what a true and iconic Flurry actually is? Yes, that leads to up to 6 attacks (without considering Haste or similar effects), and they will cap the MaP halfway through the second FoB but... who cares? Four out of the six attacks will be at the max MAP penalty, they'd need to eschew all mobility and do a pretty unsafe full attack routine to get that but it would also really push the ideal Class fantasy that seems to be what PF2 is going for, lots of attacks really fast. It would net more overall damage, and give them a bit of flexibility to decide to spend between 1-3 Actions on FoB and do whatever they like without being locked out of using a different abilities.
Also, it would incentivize taking OTHER Class Archetypes to access things that DO have the Flourish Trait to combine them together in ways that we haven't yet seen which from what I can tell is a big part of why the Monk doesn't really have a good reason for taking Martial Class MCA options and instead tends to lean into Spellcasting Archetypes since with FoB in the rotation there isn't really much benefit of them as the best stuff usually has Flourish attached.
Thoughts?