Monster Core Speculation: Who's In, Who's Out?

[CorvusMask]

Benjamin Tait wrote:

Kinda relieved to see that Agathion are going to be fine, they're distinct enough from Guardinals and apparently Agathions weren't in D&D, Agathnions were (called Agathion in 1e D&D but even then it was never referring to Guardinals). So just leaving the Azatas without the OGL ones maybe? Now Archon may be the biggest issue. Angels I'm thinking would require some name tweaking and removing any old mechanics that are holdovers from their OGL versions?

I'm both nervous and excited about it all to be honest.

I mean, Agathions are technically mythological. Technically. To quote

"An agathion is a familiar spirit which appears in the shape of a human or an animal, or even within a talisman, bottle or magic ring. It is strongest at midday"

Anyway, I think preview of nephilim materials already refer to archons(term is from Gnosticism), so they seem fine

[glass]

JiCi wrote:

That's a trademark case. If Gygax trademarked the Owlbear's design, then the person who made the mini has no hold.

That,s like if you talked to your friend about making a video game where you fling squirrels with a slingshot, and your friend trademark that idea using birds instead ^^;

IANAL, TINLA, but that is not how any of this works. You cannot trademark a design, and you cannot trademark an idea. You cannot trademark anything really, because it is not a verb, but that's not really the point - the point is that trademark law protects mark that you use to trade, not designs or ideas (which would be copyright and patent respectively).

[glass]

One other point that I wanted to make, having finally read the whole thread: Obviously, the legal advice Paizo received while looking at this was private, so we will never know for sure, but I would be very surprised if it was a clear cut, "A, B, & C are fine and you can keep them, X, Y, & Z have to go". I suspect there was an element of "D, E, & F are individually fine, but you need to ditch X% of them to be safe".

Regarding golems, AIUI the social-justice issues and the legal issues both come down to their bearing very little resemblance to folkloric golems. I suspect that PF2R will include something called a golem that is much truer to its roots in Jewish mysticism, and an entirely different kind of creature with a different name which is more like traditional D&D monsters (but not too much like them).

EDIT: One other thing I meant to say: Remember that creatures not showing up in Monster Core will not be "gone" - they will still be in the extant Bestiaries and on AoN.

Paizo's not going to come round your house and confiscate your red dragons and iron golems (a comment that is less hyperbolic than it used to be)!

[Dexter Coffee]

I'll miss the ol' Decapus. I thought about them randomly while daydreaming/thinking about pathfinder stuff today.
I just remember those things popping up with odd frequency in old AP's and I don't think they made a 2E one yet ( and now won't?) unless it's re-flavored to be ORC friendly.

Edit: from the (famous?/infamous?) Palace of the Silver Princess, came across a Wired article about it while looking for a 2E version. Wild ride, lol.

[Brinebeast]

We got a peak at some possible Remaster creature updates in the Return to the Darklands article

Dark Folk = Caligni
Derro = Dero
Dire Corby = Not Referenced
Drow = Removed (Cavern Elves = Ayindilar)
Duergar = Hryngar
Intellect Devourer = Xoarians
Mongrelmen = Fleshwarp (Not as clear but fills similar role)
Pech = Kaseshi?
Serpentfolk = Sekmin
Skum = Ulat-kinis
Svirfneblin = Drathnelars
Vegepygmy = Not Referenced
Troglodyte = Xulgaths

[Dragonhearthx]

Is it too late for a "your mama" joke?

[The Raven Black]

Brinebeast wrote:

We got a peak at some possible Remaster creature updates in the Return to the Darklands article

Dark Folk = Caligni
Derro = Dero
Dire Corby = Not Referenced
Drow = Removed (Cavern Elves = Ayindilar)
Duergar = Hryngar
Intellect Devourer = Xoarians
Mongrelmen = Fleshwarp (Not as clear but fills similar role)
Pech = Kaseshi?
Serpentfolk = Sekmin
Skum = Ulat-kinis
Svirfneblin = Drathnelars
Vegepygmy = Not Referenced
Troglodyte = Xulgaths

TBT several of those had been renamed long before the OGL/Remaster thing.

[Aristophanes]

Brinebeast wrote:

To help everyone with identifying what creatures are coming from the D&D OGL/SRD I compiled the complete list below. Note that Paizo has not used every creature that was made available in the D&D OGL/SRD, so there are creatures listed that never appeared in a Paizo product.

Additionally, I identified as many creatures as I could that Paizo has used because they were made available in the Tome of Horrors. Note that if the creature is on the tome of horrors list Paizo used that creature in their products. As far as I can tell, looking at the Tome of Horrors Complete, the book includes both D&D original monsters published by a specific agreement, and monsters originally published in a Tome of Horrors volume. Also, note that not all Tome of Horrors Complete creatures are listed, but only those that are explicitly used at least once in a Paizo Pathfinder product.

Not listed are the handful of OGL creatures that Paizo has used coming from other OGL sources such as the Book of Fiends, Advanced Bestiary, etc. Note that all versions of creatures coming from an OGL source will become unavailable to Paizo once they begin publishing under the ORC. But only the OGL versions will be unavailable, so any creature coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, or from a common concept will still be available but will need new stats, new presentation, new description, new lore, or a combination thereof. Also, any creature that is a real world creature will be available to Paizo. Any creature that is completely original to D&D, Tome of Horrors, or other books that are published under the OGL will no longer be available to Paizo, unless those creatures are republished under the ORC.

The big question then: What creatures are completely original to D&D or Tome of Horrors and therefore not coming from mythology, folklore, public domain, from a common concept, or from the real world? Ideally, knowing this will help to inform us who is in, who is out, and who may yet return.

Exploring Common...

You're a Finebeast, Brinebeast!

I think there might be something missing from Tome of Horrors, but just going from memory.

Spoiler:

Addams Family: Morticia, Gomez, Pugslie, Wednesday, Fester, Grand mama, Lurch, and Itt.

[CaptainTrips]

Rysky wrote:

Our Pit Friends :(

Coming to Paizo's Twitch channel soon, Pit Friends!

So no one told you the Underworld was going to be this way.
Your job's a joke, your pitchfork is broke, your Pit Fiend ignores you.
It's like you're always stuck in the second circle of the Underworld,
When it hasn't been your day, your week, your month, or even your year.

But, I'll be there for you, when the Underworld starts to freeze over.
I'll be there for you, like I've been there before.
I'll be there for you, cause you're there for me too.

[Ectar]

I've a sneaking suspicion that the Frost Worm and Remorhaz aren't making the cut.

I was reading the archives of nethys on the new cave worms (love cave worms) and noticed that the mighty Frost Worm is not considered a cave worm.
The bestiary description of the Remorhaz indicates that they grow up in to Frost Worms, which defies the established lifecycle of the extant cave worms, so taxonomically it makes sense that the frost worm is not a cave worm.

But with the relatively large number of cave worms in 2e, I think the game has gotten away from the need for my favorite monsters.
Plus recently there was a Glacial Worm released, which obviously exists in a pretty similar ecological niche to the Frost Worm.

Finally, insofar as I can tell, neither the Remorhaz nor Frost Worm are based on specific myth or real world lore. The Remorhaz, in particular, seems to be a D&D original creation and while they don't have a monopoly on large worm creature that lives in snowy climates, there doesn't seem to be a large reason to recreate "Frost Worm", specifically.

[Ectar]

It's been too long since my previous post so I can't edit it to add:

The "Juvenile Cave Worm" stat block has this to say:

Brood Variance wrote:

The cave worms presented here are typical of standard rock worms. For crimson worms, use the elite adjustment and add immunity to fire. For azure worms, increase their swim Speed to 40. Gray worms gain negative healing and a weakness to positive energy 5. Glacial worms gain immunity to cold.

I wonder if Purple Worms are going to be renamed to Rock Worms in the remaster?

Crimson and Azure are the other worms printed in bestiaries. Grey and Glacial were printed in the previous volume of the same AP.

Purple Worms aren't mentioned at all, which is quite curious.

The only other worms that aren't mentioned are the Larval Brood Swarm, which are noted as having similar characteristics across variants, and the Shadow Worm, which appeared in a different AP.

So I think the name "Purple Worm" is out, but the broad strokes of the creature will likely remain going forward.

[Perpdepog]

That was my guess too. The worms could be renamed based on where they live rather than their coloration.

[Calliope5431]

Perpdepog wrote:

That was my guess too. The worms could be renamed based on where they live rather than their coloration.

Hey, it worked for Dune with the sand worms.

[Calliope5431]

I admit, the cave worms are reminding me of my favorite pathfinder dragon type - linnorms.

100% non OGL, I believe! Hopefully they make it into A bestiary even if it's not the first one.

[Perpdepog]

Calliope5431 wrote:

Perpdepog wrote:

That was my guess too. The worms could be renamed based on where they live rather than their coloration.

Hey, it worked for Dune with the sand worms.

The spice must flow!

[Aenigma]

What? The names "intellect devourer" and "purple worm" are removed? I understand Paizo cannot use kuo-toa, neothelid, or yuan-ti because these names are 100% created by Wizards of the Coast. But intellect devourer and purple worm look like very generic English word to me. How can Wizards of the Coast own a generic word? By the same logic, I guess Paizo can use names like red dragons, blue dragons, gold dragons, silver dragons, et cetera freely without problem because these names cannot be owned by Wizards of the Coast.

[Ed Reppert]

I'd want an opinion from a qualified and experienced IP lawyer before I acted on the belief that certain names cannot be part of WotC's IP.

[SenahBirdR]

Remember, Paizo isn't making decisions solely on how an IP case would likely be ruled, but also to avoid a case whatsoever. Plus Paizo really wants to emphasize the specifics of the Pathfinder IP. Even though the names and descriptions are fairly generic it is best to focus on new takes when keeping a monster. That includes name changes that might not be strictly necessary.

[QuidEst]

Aenigma wrote:

What? The names "intellect devourer" and "purple worm" are removed? I understand Paizo cannot use kuo-toa, neothelid, or yuan-ti because these names are 100% created by Wizards of the Coast. But intellect devourer and purple worm look like very generic English word to me. How can Wizards of the Coast own a generic word? By the same logic, I guess Paizo can use names like red dragons, blue dragons, gold dragons, silver dragons, et cetera freely without problem because these names cannot be owned by Wizards of the Coast.

How can Disney own "Frozen"? That's just one word!

If I made a movie called "Frozen" that's about a ski-lift malfunction that strands people on a mountain, I'm not going to get sued. If I make a movie called "Frozen" that is about an ice princess, I'm going to be having a long talk with the Mouse's legal team. Or a short talk, more likely.

(That probably gets into trademark vs. copyright, but I'm still going to use it as an example.)

Paizo only used "intellect devourer" and "purple worm" as monsters because D&D did. They didn't just happen to come up with the same names. If Paizo had a "purple worm" that was a small creature that gnaws its way into people's arms and takes control of that arm's motor functions, they would be probably fine. It's not actually the phrase "purple worm" that's protected; it is the combination of "purple worm" and "massive high-level burrowing worm with a stinger" together. On the flip side, D&D can't be sued by the license holder of Dune for using a big burrowing worm, but they probably can't call them "sandworms", "Makers", or "Shai-Halud".

Similarly Paizo can have Stompy the Dragon, a dragon that is both evil and red. Paizo probably can't have evil red dragons, green dragons, blue dragons, white dragons, and black dragons, alongside good bronze dragons, gold dragons, silver dragons, copper dragons, and brass dragons. That's clearly just using D&D's particular interpretation of dragons.

I'm not a lawyer, so take it with a grain of salt.

[Calliope5431]

Likewise I cannot write a book about a magical land full of elves and dwarves and halflings with a dark lord who created nine rings for the humans, seven for the dwarves, and so on, and call it "Lords of the Ring".

Here's a gygax quote about certain threatening letters he got:

"TSR was served with papers threatening damages
to the tune of half a mil by the Saul Zantes division of Elan Merchandising on behalf of the tolkien Estate. The main objection was to the boardgame we were publishing, The Battle of Five Armies. The author of that game had given us a letter from his attorney claiming that the work was grandfathered because it was published after the copyrights for JRRT's works had lapsed and before any renewals were made.

The action also demanded we remove balrog, dragon,
dwarf, elf, ent, goblin, hobbit, orc, and warg from the D&D game. Although only balrog and warg
were unique names we agreed to hobbit as well,
kept the rest, of course."

So I can rip off the elves and dwarves part... but not other parts. Even though "The Battle of Five Armies" is "just a phrase" and "can't be copyrighted". On the other hand I can still make a boxing movie called "Lords of the Ring". Look it up, it exists.

Also Paizo wants to distinguish their IP anyway.

That's another reason we're getting diabolic dragons and such. Because being a D&D knockoff can get old.

[PossibleCabbage]

When the Tolkien estate sued TSR the main things that changed is that Ents became Treants, Hobbits became Halflings, and Balrogs became Balor. Hasbro has the biggest legal team of any entity mentioned so far, so you're going to want to have a cleaner break than that.

Like what's important about the Intellect Devourer is not "it's a little brain on four clawed legs" but "it's a scary monster since it eats your brain and takes over your body." Nobody owns "scary monster that eats your brain and puppeteers your body" so you can have one of those, it just can't be a little brain on four clawed legs. I think the one Paizo is going to use is a worm.

[Ectar]

Aenigma wrote:

What? The names "intellect devourer" and "purple worm" are removed? I understand Paizo cannot use kuo-toa, neothelid, or yuan-ti because these names are 100% created by Wizards of the Coast. But intellect devourer and purple worm look like very generic English word to me. How can Wizards of the Coast own a generic word? By the same logic, I guess Paizo can use names like red dragons, blue dragons, gold dragons, silver dragons, et cetera freely without problem because these names cannot be owned by Wizards of the Coast.

We don't know for certain in many cases which monsters are changing.

I just noticed that "purple worm" was missing from a related AP monster's descriptive text. There's probably at least a handful of potential explanations for that. "The name 'purple worm' not making it through the remaster" is just one possibility. Though it's a possibility I think has a lot of merit.

[Perpdepog]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

When the Tolkien estate sued TSR the main things that changed is that Ents became Treants, Hobbits became Halflings, and Balrogs became Balor. Hasbro has the biggest legal team of any entity mentioned so far, so you're going to want to have a cleaner break than that.

Like what's important about the Intellect Devourer is not "it's a little brain on four clawed legs" but "it's a scary monster since it eats your brain and takes over your body." Nobody owns "scary monster that eats your brain and puppeteers your body" so you can have one of those, it just can't be a little brain on four clawed legs. I think the one Paizo is going to use is a worm.

I thought it was going to be a little octopoid thing. I know they're called Zorans or something like that; brain-eating puppeteers from Zor.

[Brinebeast]

To further investigate the question of who is in and who is out I have conducted the following actions:

1. I have gone through the 3.5 OGL/SRD and removed any monsters, as far as I can tell, that were never used by Paizo.

2. I have reviewed the OGL page in every Pathfinder Product published under the OGL that I own. I do not own most of the 1st Edition Pathfinder Society Scenarios, primarily Seasons 1-10.
As part of the review I identified any Tome of Horrors monsters listed on each OGL page and maintained a running total.

3. I have not reviewed those OGL products that have not been released at the time of this posting. This includes 2 products in the Adventure Path line, the remainder of 2E Pathfinder Society Season 5, and the remainder of 2E Pathfinder Society Season 5 Quests.

4. Below are the results. For those lines that included a number at the end, that number reflects the total number of times that monster appeared on an OGL page in a Pathfinder product. I did not attempt to tally the total number of products that each OGL/SRD monster was referenced in. That is even beyond my madness.

5. Each creature identifies if it is coming from the OGL/SRD or if it is coming from the Tome of Horrors. There are a small number of creatures coming from other listed sources. Not included are references to the Advanced Bestiary. I may include that information in another post.

6. The information below is listed as: Creature Name - Source - Tally if any.

A - Creatures:

Aboleth - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Abyssal Harvester - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Abyssal Larva - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Achaierai - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Adherer - D&D/TOH License - 3
Aerial Servant - D&D/TOH License - 4
Agathion, Avoral - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Agathion, Leonal - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Allip - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Amphisbaena - D&D/TOH License - 8
Angel, Astral Deva - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Angel, Monadic Deva - D&D/TOH License - 15
Angel, Movanic Deva - D&D/TOH License - 18
Angel, Planetar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Angel, Solar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Animal Lord - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Animal Lord, Cat Lord - D&D/TOH License - 4
Animated Object - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ankheg - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ant Lion - D&D/TOH License - 3
Ant, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ape - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ape, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Aranea - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Archon, Hound - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Archon, Lantern - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Archon, Trumpet - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ascomoid - D&D/TOH License - 9
Assassin Vine - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Athach - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Atomie - D&D/TOH License - 15
Aurumvorax - D&D/TOH License - 27
Axe Beak - D&D/TOH License - 17
Azata, Bralani - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Azata, Ghaele - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Azata, Lillend - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Azer - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

B - Creatures:

Babbler - D&D/TOH License - 1
Baboon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Baccae - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Badger - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Badger, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Baobhan Sith - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Barghest - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Barghest, Greater - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Basidirond - D&D/TOH License - 24
Basilisk - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bat - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bat Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bat, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bat, Doombat - D&D/TOH License - 1
Bat, Mobat - D&D/TOH License - 15
Bear, Black - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bear, Brown - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bear, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bear, Polar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bee, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Beetle, Slicer - D&D/TOH License - 5
Behir - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Belker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bison - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Blindheim - D&D/TOH License - 12
Blink Dog - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bloody Bones - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Boalisk - D&D/TOH License - 1
Boar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Boar, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bodak - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bombardier Beetle, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bonesnapper - D&D/TOH License - 1
Brain Mole - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Brass Man - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Brownie - D&D/TOH License - 15
Brykolakas - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Bugbear - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bulette - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Bunyip - D&D/TOH License - 16
Burning Dervish - 3PP TOH OGL - 2

C - Creatures:

Caller In Darkness - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Camel - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Carbuncle - D&D/TOH License - 9
Carrion Moth - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Caryatid Column - D&D/TOH License - 17
Cat - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Cave Creature - - 1
Cave Cricket - D&D/TOH License - 1
Cave Fisher - D&D/TOH License - 21
Cave Moray - D&D/TOH License - 2
Celestial Creature - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Centaur - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Centipede Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Centipede, Monstrous - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Chaos Beast - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Cheetah - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Chimera - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Choker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Church Grim - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Chuul - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Cloaker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Cockatrice - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Coffer Corpse - D&D/TOH License - 3
Corpse Orgy - 3PP TOH OGL - 5
Corpsespinner - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Corpsespun - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Couatl - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Crocodile - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Crocodile, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Crucifixion Spirit - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Crypt Thing - D&D/TOH License - 6
Crysmal - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Crystallis - 3PP TOH OGL - 1

D - Creatures:

Daemon, Charonadaemon - D&D/TOH License - 1
Daemon, Derghodaemon - D&D/TOH License - 21
Daemon, Guardian - D&D/TOH License - 27
Daemon, Hydrodaemon - D&D/TOH License - 23
Daemon, Piscodaemon - D&D/TOH License - 29
Daemon, The Oinodaemon - D&D/TOH License - 4
Dark Creeper - D&D/TOH License - 23
Dark Stalker - D&D/TOH License - 23
Darkmantle - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Darnoc - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Death Dog - D&D/TOH License - 3
Death Worm - 3PP TOH OGL - 18
Debased Fey - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Decapus - D&D/TOH License - 12
Deinonychus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Delver - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demodand - D&D/TOH License - 1
Demodand, Shaggy - D&D/TOH License - 5
Demodand, Slimy - D&D/TOH License - 7
Demodand, Tarry - D&D/TOH License - 9
Demon Lord, Baphomet - D&D/TOH License - 20
Demon Lord, Dagon - 3PP TOH OGL - 3
Demon Lord, Jubilex - D&D/TOH License - 18
Demon Lord, Kostchtchie - D&D/TOH License - 17
Demon Lord, Orcus - D&D/TOH License - 10
Demon Lord, Pazuzu - D&D/TOH License - 21
Demon, Alu-Demon - D&D/TOH License - 6
Demon, Babau - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Balban - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Demon, Balor - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Bebilith - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Dretch - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Gharros - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Demon, Glabrezu - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Hezrou - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Marilith - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Nabasu - D&D/TOH License - 37
Demon, Nalfeshnee - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Quasit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Retriever - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Shadow - D&D/TOH License - 37
Demon, Succubus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demon, Vrock - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Demonic Knight - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Derro - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Destrachan - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Barbed (Hamatula) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Bearded (Barbazu) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Bone (Osyluth) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Chain (Kyton) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Erinyes - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Flayer - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Devil, Hellcat (Bezekira) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Horned (Cornugon) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Ice (Gelugon) - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Imp - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Lemure - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devil, Nupperibo - D&D/TOH License - 1
Devil, Pit Fiend - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Devourer - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dire Corby - D&D/TOH License - 8
Dire Creature - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Dire Ghoul Wolf - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Disenchanter - D&D/TOH License - 2
Dog - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dog, Riding - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Donkey - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Doppelganger - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dracolisk - D&D/TOH License - 16
Dragon Horse - D&D/TOH License - 5
Dragon Turtle - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Chromatic - Black - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Chromatic - Blue - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Chromatic - Green - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Chromatic - Red - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Chromatic - White - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Faerie - D&D/TOH License - 18
Dragon, Metallic - Brass - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Metallic - Bronze - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Metallic - Copper - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Metallic - Gold - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragon, Metallic - Silver - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragonne - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dragonnel - D&D/TOH License - 1
Dream Spectre - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Drider - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dryad - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dust Digger - D&D/TOH License - 3
Dwarf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dwarf, Duergar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Dwarf, Psionic Duergar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

E - Creatures:

Eagle - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Eagle, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elasmosaurus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elemental Fiend, Airfiend - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Elemental Fiend, Firefiend - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Elemental, Air - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elemental, Earth - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elemental, Fire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elemental, Water - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elephant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elf, Aquatic - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elf, Drow - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Elf, Half-Elf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ettercap - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ettin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Executioner’s Hood - D&D/TOH License - 4
Eye Of The Deep - D&D/TOH License - 1

F - Creatures:

Fiendish Creature - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Fire Beetle, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Fire Nymph - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Fire Phantom - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Fire Snake - D&D/TOH License - 1
Flail Snail - D&D/TOH License - 3
Flind - D&D/TOH License - 4
Flindbar (Weapon) - D&D/TOH License - 2
Flumph - D&D/TOH License - 10
Foo Creature - D&D/TOH License - 8
Forester’s Bane - D&D/TOH License - 1
Forlarren - D&D/TOH License - 12
Formian, Myrmarch - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Formian, Queen - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Formian, Taskmaster - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Formian, Warrior - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Formian, Worker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Frog, Giant Abyssal Dire - D&D/TOH License - 1
Frog, Giant Dire - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Froghemoth - D&D/TOH License - 30
Frost Worm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Fungus, Shrieker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Fungus, Violet Fungus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

G - Creatures:

Gargoyle - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gargoyle, Four-Armed - D&D/TOH License - 2
Gargoyle, Kapoacinth - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Genie, Djinn Noble - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Genie, Djinni - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Genie, Efreeti - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Genie, Janni - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Genie, Marid - D&D/TOH License - 64
Ghost - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ghoul - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ghoul-Stirge - D&D/TOH License - 1
Ghoul, Cinder - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Ghoul, Ghast - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ghoul, Lacedon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant Dragonfly - D&D/TOH License - 2
Giant Leech - D&D/TOH License - 2
Giant Slug - D&D/TOH License - 12
Giant Tick - D&D/TOH License - 4
Giant, Bronze - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Giant, Cloud Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Fire Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Frost Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Frost Giant Jarl - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Hill Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Stone Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Stone Giant Elders - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Storm Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Giant, Wood - D&D/TOH License - 16
Gibbering Mouther - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Girallon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gloomwing - D&D/TOH License - 10
Gnoll - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gnome - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gnome, Svirfneblin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Goblin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gohl - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Golem, Adamantine Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Clay Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Flesh Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Furnace - 3PP TOH OGL - 3
Golem, Greater Stone Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Ice - 3PP TOH OGL - 16
Golem, Iron Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Mithral Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Mummy - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Golem, Rope - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Golem, Stone Golem - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Golem, Stone Guardian - D&D/TOH License - 2
Golem, Tallow - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Golem, Witch-Doll - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Golem, Wood - 3PP TOH OGL - 20
Gorgon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Gray Nisp - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Gray Render - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Great Sea Anemone - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Grick - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Griffon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Grimstalker - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Grippli - D&D/TOH License - 30
Gryph - D&D/TOH License - 8

H - Creatures:

Hag, Annis Hag - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hag, Green Hag - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hag, Night Hag - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hag, Sea Hag - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Half-Celestial - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Half-Dragon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Half-Fiend - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Halfling - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hangman Tree - D&D/TOH License - 13
Harpy - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Harpy, Harpy Archer - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hawk - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hazard, Ear Seeker - D&D/TOH License - 1
Hazard, Olive Slime - D&D/TOH License - 1
Hazard, Piercer - D&D/TOH License - 2
Hazard, Rot Grub - D&D/TOH License - 30
Hazard, Russet Mold - D&D/TOH License - 20
Hazard, Twilight Mushroom - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Hell Hound - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hell Hound, Nessian Warhound - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hellwasp Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hippocampus - D&D/TOH License - 14
Hippogriff - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hippopotamus - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Hoar Spirit - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Hoarfrost Spirit - - 1
Hobgoblin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Homunculus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Horse, Heavy - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Horse, Light - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Howler - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Huecuva - D&D/TOH License - 18
Hyaenodon - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Hydra - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hydra, Cryohydra - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hydra, Pyrohydra - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Hyena - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

I - Creatures:

Inevitable, Kolyarut - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Inevitable, Marut - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Inevitable, Zelekhut - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Intellect Devourer - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Invisible Stalker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Iron Cobra - D&D/TOH License - 15

J - Creatures:

Jackalwere - D&D/TOH License - 9

K - Creatures:

Kamadan - D&D/TOH License - 6
Kech - D&D/TOH License - 6
Kelpie - D&D/TOH License - 18
King Cobra - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Kobold - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Korred - D&D/TOH License - 15
Kraken - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Krenshar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

L - Creatures:

Lamia - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lammasu - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lammasu, Golden Protector - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Land Lamprey - D&D/TOH License - 1
Lantern Goat - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Lava Child - D&D/TOH License - 1
Leopard - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Leprechaun - D&D/TOH License - 10
Lesser Shadow - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Lich - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lich Shade - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Lich, Demilich - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lion - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lion, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lizard - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lizard, Monitor - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lizardfolk - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Locathah - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Locust Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lurker Above - D&D/TOH License - 7
Lycanthrope, Hill Giant Dire Wereboar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Werebear - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Wereboar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Wererat - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Weretiger - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Werewolf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Lycanthrope, Werewolf Lord - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

M - Creatures:

Maenad - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Magmin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Manta Ray - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Manticore - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Medusa - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Megaraptor - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Air Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Dust Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Earth Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Fire Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Ice Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Magma Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Ooze Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Salt Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Steam Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mephit, Water Mephit - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mercane - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Merfolk - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mihstu - D&D/TOH License - 17
Mimic - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Minotaur - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mite - D&D/TOH License - 31
Mohrg - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mongrelman - D&D/TOH License - 20
Monkey - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Monstrous Crab - D&D/TOH License - 1
Moon Dog - D&D/TOH License - 2
Mu Spore - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Muckdweller - D&D/TOH License - 3
Mudman - D&D/TOH License - 1
Mule - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mummy - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mummy Of The Deep - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Mummy, Mummy Lord - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Mustard Jelly - D&D/TOH License - 1

N - Creatures:

Naga, Dark Naga - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Naga, Guardian Naga - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Naga, Spirit Naga - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Naga, Water Naga - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Necrophidius - D&D/TOH License - 14
Negative Energy Elemental - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Neh-Thalggu - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Neh-Thalggu, Brain Collector - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Neothelid - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nereid - 3PP TOH OGL - 25
Nightmare - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nightmare, Cauchemar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nightshade, Nightcrawler - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nightshade, Nightwalker - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nightshade, Nightwing - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Nymph - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

O - Creatures:

Octopus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Octopus, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ogre - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ogre, Merrow - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ogre, Ogre Barbarian - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ogre, Ogre Mage - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ooze, Black Pudding - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ooze, Crystal - D&D/TOH License - 2
Ooze, Elder Black Pudding - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ooze, Entropic - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Ooze, Gelatinous Cube - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ooze, Glacial - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Ooze, Gray Ooze - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Ooze, Magma - 3PP TOH OGL - 8
Ooze, Mercury - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Ooze, Ochre Jelly - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Orc - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Orc, Half-Orc - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Otyugh - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Owl - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Owl, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Owlbear - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

P - Creatures:

Pech - D&D/TOH License - 24
Pegasus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Phantasm - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Phantom Fungus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Phase Spider - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Phycomid - D&D/TOH License - 9
Piranha Swarm - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Pit Hag - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Planetouched, Aasimar - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Planetouched, Tiefling - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Poltergeist - D&D/TOH License - 20
Pony - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Pony, War - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Porpoise - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Praying Mantis, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Pseudodragon - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Purple Worm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Pyrolisk - D&D/TOH License - 1

Q - Creatures:

Quickling - D&D/TOH License - 25
Quickwood - D&D/TOH License - 15

R - Creatures:

Rakshasa - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rast - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rat - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rat Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rat, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Raven - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Raven Swarm - 3PP TOH OGL - 6
Rawbone - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Remorhaz - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rhinoceros - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Roc - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Roper - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Rust Monster - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

S - Creatures:

Sahuagin - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sahuagin, Malenti - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sahuagin, Mutants - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Salamander - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sand Kraken - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Sandling - D&D/TOH License - 1
Sandman - D&D/TOH License - 9
Satyr - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Scarecrow - D&D/TOH License - 11
Scorpion, Monstrous - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Scythe Tree - 3PP TOH OGL - 3
Sea Cat - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shadow - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shadow Mastiff - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shadow Rat - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Shadow Rat Swarm - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Shadow Rat, Dire - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Shadow, Greater Shadow - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shambling Mound - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shark - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shark, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shedu - D&D/TOH License - 2
Shield Guardian - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Shocker Lizard - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Skeleton - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Skeleton Warrior - D&D/TOH License - 2
Skulk - D&D/TOH License - 23
Skull Spider - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Skum - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Slime Crawler - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Slime Mold - 3PP TOH OGL - 8
Slithering Tracker - D&D/TOH License - 8
Snake, Constrictor - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Snake, Viper - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Solifugid - D&D/TOH License - 1
Soul Eater - D&D/TOH License - 11
Spectre - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sphinx, Androsphinx - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sphinx, Criosphinx - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sphinx, Gynosphinx - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sphinx, Hieracosphinx - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Spider Eater - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Spider Swarm - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Spider, Monstrous - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Spriggan - D&D/TOH License - 19
Sprite, Grig - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sprite, Nixie - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Sprite, Pixie - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Squid - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Squid, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Stag Beetle, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Stegocentipede - D&D/TOH License - 1
Stirge - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Stone Maiden - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Stunjelly - D&D/TOH License - 1
Swarm, Adamantine Wasp - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Swarm, Warden Jack - 3PP TOH OGL - 1

T - Creatures:

Taer - D&D/TOH License - 1
Tarrasque - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Temporal Crawler - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Tendriculos - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Tenebrous Creature - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Tenebrous Worm - D&D/TOH License - 9
Tentamort - D&D/TOH License - 9
Thessalhydra - D&D/TOH License - 3
Thoqqua - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Thorny - D&D/TOH License - 2
Thought Eater - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Tiger - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Tiger, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Time Flayer - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Toad - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Tojanida - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Tombstone Fairy - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Trapper - D&D/TOH License - 7
Treant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Treant, Lightning - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Treant, Treant Elder - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Triceratops - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Triton - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Troglodyte - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Troll - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Troll, Ice - D&D/TOH License - 19
Troll, Rock - 3PP TOH OGL - 14
Troll, Scrag - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Troll, Troll Hunter - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Troll, Two-Headed - D&D/TOH License - 4
Tyrannosaurus - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

U - Creatures:

Undead Lord - 3PP TOH OGL - 2
Unicorn - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Unicorn, Celestial Charger - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Unknown? - - 3

V - Creatures:

Vampire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Vampire, Vampire Spawn - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Vargouille - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Vegepygmy - D&D/TOH License - 40
Vilstrak - D&D/TOH License - 1

W - Creatures:

Warhorse, Heavy - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Warhorse, Light - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wasp, Giant - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Weasel - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Weasel, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Whale, Baleen - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Whale, Cachalot - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Whale, Orca - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
White Pudding - D&D/TOH License - 2
Wight - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wight, Winterwight - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Will-O’-Wisp - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Willow Dusk - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Witch Tree - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Wolf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wolf-In-Sheep's-Clothing - D&D/TOH License - 6
Wolf, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wolverine - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wolverine, Dire - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Worg - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Worg, Winter Wolf - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Worm That Walks - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wraith - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wraith, Dread Wraith - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Wyvern - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

X - Creatures:

Xill - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Xorn - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

Y - Creatures:

Yellow Musk Creeper - D&D/TOH License - 21
Yellow Musk Zombie - D&D/TOH License - 16
Yeth Hound - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Yeti - D&D/TOH License - 25
Yrthak - 3.5 OGL/SRD -

Z - Creatures:

Zombie - 3.5 OGL/SRD -
Zombie, Brine - 3PP TOH OGL - 1
Zombie, Juju - D&D/TOH License - 35

[Set]

Brinebeast wrote:

Dire Corby = Not Referenced

Have been cured of their Dire affliction. They are now size small, much less aggro, and just called 'Corbies.'

[FallenDabus]

Temperans wrote:

Calliope5431 wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Wait what is the issue with the word golem?

Original first usage of the word was from Jewish mysticism, they were legendary constructs that could be created by inscribing words in Hebrew on their foreheads.

The most famous legend is the Golem of Prague from the 1500s, which was created by a rabbi to guard the Jewish people of the city from anti-Semitism. The golem goes mad on the Sabbath and eventually has to be shut down by the rabbi.

I can see an argument for it being problematic since it pulls from non-mainstream folklore. On the other hand, so do genies and kami, and they clearly aren't going away (and most people would argue they aren't problematic).

My Jewish friends like them because it's fun to see your culture represented in the game. For them, I get the impression that it's comparable to seeing Tian Xia if you have Asian ancestry, or Rusalkas if you have Slavic ancestry. Makes you feel more welcome. But I can see the counterarguments to the contrary, and I certainly don't want to argue with anyone Jewish who's offended by it.

*sigh* really that's it? That's why the name is changing? I don't even know what to say to that reason.

So, unfortuately I'm several months late and hopefully this doesn't derail, but I do have a more detailed answer for you. Give that it was recently confirmed the golem is becoming the bulwark, I think its topical too.

When ever the discussion of golems in RPGs comes up, I always think of this post. I know several Jewish RPG players very unconfortable with the use of the word, and even though I know many who are okay with it, Heavy Arms explains his issue very ellquoently. I've included it below the spoiler, so others can read it too and hopefully find it as helpful as I have. It is notable because he has no issue with golems existing in RPGs... he just wants them to actually be golems.

You can read the post I've quoted below in its original context here.

Spoiler:

Heavy Arms wrote:

So, because I'm apparently feeling a bit chatty, and maybe a tad cynically ironic...

I want to explain what a golem really is. When I say golem, everyone thinks about magical constructs that have a habit of rebelling against their creators. Those aren't really golems. They're called golems in reference to what a true golem is.

We, as in humanity, are golems. Or at least that's how we start. A golem is a person of ignorance. Someone that doesn't even understand that they don't know. In Jewish mysticism humanity is troubled by various failings that keep us from spiritual enlightenment. Being a golem is the first. You cannot seek enlightenment without knowing you lack it. We all have to have a moment of inspiration; an experience that makes us wonder in awe of the vastness of the universe around us, and sparks in us a desire to understand it. In the moment we cease to be golems, our ignorance is shattered and replaced by a drive to start down a path towards a higher state of being.

In Jewish mysticism, it's believed that all of the failings of humanity are told in the story of Eden (lots of different ways to count them and differentiate them abound). If overcoming that first ignorance is in the story of Eden... it comes first. And the first failing of Adam is that unlike all other life in Eden, he was not simply created once. At first, he was shaped into a lump of dirt/clay. As such, he existed as a golem, a being unknowing even of itself. Only with the first divine breath does Adam get created a second time, as a knowing human, who then begins the process of understanding his world (the naming of all the things in Eden).

Of course, the connection to the golem-as-creation of man should be more obvious now. When a Jewish mystic creates a golem, they are copying the creation of Adam. They're called golems because they're stuck in that state: created once, but not being granted the divine breath that would free them of their limited state. And why they don't get that second creation is down to the different golem stories (there are many) and what the storyteller is trying to convey. Golem stories in this sense are cautionary tales about the other failings along the path to spiritual enlightenment. When you have progressed far enough, you have the knowledge to create ignorance, and deny awe, and that power is like all power; dangerous. Humans are not meant to be stuck in that state, and they will push against such wrongful imprisonment.

So, when I look at a game like [Promethean: the Created]... of course I'm comfortable with how golems are used. Promethean is a game all about what the true point of golem stories are supposed to be about. It's a mystic journey to become a full and true human... to cease to be a golem... it's about as good of a secularized version of things as I can imagine.

But when I look at a monster manual with a golem reduced to a clay monster (or worse golems of other materials), not only is it disrespectful to my culture and traditions... I'm looking at some bland pointless thing taking the name of something deep and spiritual. Golem stories don't exist to have a monster to fight, they exist to keep us humble on our path towards being better people. They exist to remind us of where we started and no lose sight of that. Calling a statblock that gets bonuses because it's made of clay, and can be killed if you target it's forehead just right a golem is denying yourself a far more fulfilling story.

[CorvusMask]

I do kinda wonder with mythological monsters from ogl like Yeti if remasters would essentially keep creatuer but throw statblock out.

Then again I kinda liked 1e yeti art better than 2e art which is just kinda same as D&D 5e design was

[Set]

CorvusMask wrote:

I do kinda wonder with mythological monsters from ogl like Yeti if remasters would essentially keep creatuer but throw statblock out.

Then again I kinda liked 1e yeti art better than 2e art which is just kinda same as D&D 5e design was

For critters from myth and lore with 'D&D' abilities like the Yeti's cold aura or the Vampire's level drain, I wouldn't mind at all if Remaster got rid of the more 'D&D' abilities and stuck to those from lore. (Vampires, for instance, have all sorts of non-D&D sources for blood drain, sunlight vulnerability, turning to bats, wolves and mist, controlling bats and wolves, climbing walls, controlling weather, freakish strength, speed and / or toughness, dominating presence, etc. so those could all stay, but level drain by touch? That's really a very specific d20 game mechanic and not really part of most 'vampire lore'... Similarly, Yeti of lore could be associated with combating evil spirits, or causing bad luck to those that behold them, but a cold aura? I may have missed that bit of lore, but it feels more like a TSR invention to me.)

I'd love for remaster to dive deeper into the myths behind the monsters, than just copy the abilities dreamed up for them 50 odd years ago by the designers of D&D.

[The Raven Black]

I think all mythological creatures, and likely at least a few new ones (litterary, movies, RPGs ...), were created to tell stories that reveal and enlighten and warn.

Before becoming stat blocks that is.

[Ed Reppert]

Back when he was still human, Vlad Tepes found a crashed alien spaceship full of, among other technological wonders, nanotechnology that took over his body and reconstructed it as a cloud of nanites. That’s why he has the powers he does and why he’s immortal. See David “The Mad Wizard” Weber’s Out Of The Dark.

[Calliope5431]

Set wrote:

CorvusMask wrote:

I do kinda wonder with mythological monsters from ogl like Yeti if remasters would essentially keep creatuer but throw statblock out.

Then again I kinda liked 1e yeti art better than 2e art which is just kinda same as D&D 5e design was

For critters from myth and lore with 'D&D' abilities like the Yeti's cold aura or the Vampire's level drain, I wouldn't mind at all if Remaster got rid of the more 'D&D' abilities and stuck to those from lore. (Vampires, for instance, have all sorts of non-D&D sources for blood drain, sunlight vulnerability, turning to bats, wolves and mist, controlling bats and wolves, climbing walls, controlling weather, freakish strength, speed and / or toughness, dominating presence, etc. so those could all stay, but level drain by touch? That's really a very specific d20 game mechanic and not really part of most 'vampire lore'... Similarly, Yeti of lore could be associated with combating evil spirits, or causing bad luck to those that behold them, but a cold aura? I may have missed that bit of lore, but it feels more like a TSR invention to me.)

I'd love for remaster to dive deeper into the myths behind the monsters, than just copy the abilities dreamed up for them 50 odd years ago by the designers of D&D.

I'd love for vampires to be locked in their coffins by a wild rose (which is from the original Dracula). Or other crazy weirdness. I'll also say that the whole "level drain" thing is a mess flavor-wise and mechanically, but it's already been solved by PF 2e.

Pathfinder 2e vampires seem to impose the drained condition solely via blood drinking. As opposed to Pathfinder 1e, where they had separate abilities for blood drinking (Constitution drain on successful grapple checks) and energy drain (on the slam attack).

[D3stro 2119]

MMCJawa wrote:

Evan Tarlton wrote:

Please feel free to give your opinions on what you expect. For example: while I expect that most of the really prominent celestials and fiends won't make the cut, we will have the Succubus in some fashion because it's basically taken from folklore. The Fire Demon and the Tyrant Devil will probably also appear at some point, but not in forms we currently recognize as balors and pit fiends (somewhat ironic, considering the balor's origin in D&D). We're going to lose the solar and the planetar, but we will likely get the Seraphim and Cherubim in their places, and I don't know whether I want them to be humanoid or weird (or maybe they'll have alternate forms; I'd be happy with that).

I think I have a vague recollection that Solar and Planetars are from New Age occult belief. At the very least, Theosophy has a rank of celestial being called Planetary spirits.

I wonder what changes are going to be made to Kobolds. While Paizo has completely redesigned the appearance, a lot of the personality plus there relationship to dragons is a straight DnD invention. In folklore, Kobolds are pretty generic mine spirits or house spirits, and certainly don't have any draconic traits.

Frankly I wouldn't mind if Monster Core took a totally DnD 4e view of Angels/Celestials and made them the Any Alignment servitors of the Gods, considering the Paizo cosmology already shares similarities to that cosmology anyways.

[Prince Setehrael]

I believe that the Banshee will be changed from an Undead to a Fey. Since the actual legends of the Banshee where fey harbingers of impending death.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Of course, on the other hand the hosts of the dead were also thought to belong to the fey, so that line isn't precisely a hard one, but I think it would be quite an appropriate change. Perhaps maybe we'll get lucky and banshee won't be randomly an elf-specific entity? Never really liked that apparently only elves can feel betrayal strongly enough to become a mega-undead.

[Kaspyr2077]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Of course, on the other hand the hosts of the dead were also thought to belong to the fey, so that line isn't precisely a hard one, but I think it would be quite an appropriate change. Perhaps maybe we'll get lucky and banshee won't be randomly an elf-specific entity? Never really liked that apparently only elves can feel betrayal strongly enough to become a mega-undead.

It's not random. It's folklore. It wouldn't be the greatest thing to go around reducing folklore to game constructs by cutting it to fit.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Kaspyr2077 wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Of course, on the other hand the hosts of the dead were also thought to belong to the fey, so that line isn't precisely a hard one, but I think it would be quite an appropriate change. Perhaps maybe we'll get lucky and banshee won't be randomly an elf-specific entity? Never really liked that apparently only elves can feel betrayal strongly enough to become a mega-undead.

It's not random. It's folklore. It wouldn't be the greatest thing to go around reducing folklore to game constructs by cutting it to fit.

It's folklore that the Irish wailing woman of the fairy mounds is just the ghost of an alfr from Norse myth? This does not quite track with my understanding of how folklore works.

[Kaspyr2077]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

It's folklore that the Irish wailing woman of the fairy mounds is just the ghost of an alfr from Norse myth? This does not quite track with my understanding of how folklore works.

Etymonline wrote:

banshee (n.)

in Irish folklore, a type of female fairy believed to foretell deaths by singing in a mournful, unearthly voice, 1771, from phonetic spelling of Irish bean sidhe "female of the Elves," from bean "woman" (from PIE root *gwen- "woman") + Irish sidhe (Gaelic sith) "fairy" or sid "fairy mound" (from PIE root *sed- (1) "to sit"). Sidhe sometimes is confused with sithe, genitive of sith "peace."

The root is not a ghost of vengeance, but fae (or elvish) women. The concept has migrated a bit, to the point you're here trying to make them a generic vengeance ghost. Making them vengeance ghosts is a fine take on them, but why are you trying to file the serial numbers off to the point of removing any of the fae/elvish roots? Seems a bit tasteless.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Kaspyr2077 wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

It's folklore that the Irish wailing woman of the fairy mounds is just the ghost of an alfr from Norse myth? This does not quite track with my understanding of how folklore works.

Etymonline wrote:

banshee (n.)

in Irish folklore, a type of female fairy believed to foretell deaths by singing in a mournful, unearthly voice, 1771, from phonetic spelling of Irish bean sidhe "female of the Elves," from bean "woman" (from PIE root *gwen- "woman") + Irish sidhe (Gaelic sith) "fairy" or sid "fairy mound" (from PIE root *sed- (1) "to sit"). Sidhe sometimes is confused with sithe, genitive of sith "peace."

The root is not a ghost of vengeance, but fae (or elvish) women. The concept has migrated a bit, to the point you're here trying to make them a generic vengeance ghost. Making them vengeance ghosts is a fine take on them, but why are you trying to file the serial numbers off to the point of removing any of the fae/elvish roots? Seems a bit tasteless.

Perhaps you missed my point. I don't object to banshee being fae. Elves originate from Norse mythology, and despite much conflation in modern takes between them and fae folklore, if we're going to insist on staying true to the folklore in our depictions, perhaps exclusively tying the banshee to an alien humanoid (as Golarion's elves are) that originates from a totally different culture may be seen as a strange way to do that.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

There’s always going to be “filing off” of serial numbers when transmigrating real-world folklore/myths/legends to a campaign setting that isn’t set on Earth. It’s kind of an auto-assumption. And endless hand-wringing on how “authentic” those transmigrations are are in essence, a waste of time, with no “correct” answer.

Personally, nothing about having “clay golems” as a statblock means I can’t inject more nuance derived from anywhere in my imagination or real world cultures. Or I can ignore all of human culture for *my* presentation of clay (or any) golems in my game at my discretion.

Similarly, while I prefer the ban-shee as a mangled transliteration of “dark-elf” and thus dark-fae spirit, typically but not exclusively tied to the woods, I lean more on the elfin/fae-spirit than vengeful ghost.

Not sure why anyone should call any of that “tasteless”. Have your own imagination.

[Kaspyr2077]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Perhaps you missed my point. I don't object to banshee being fae. Elves originate from Norse mythology, and despite much conflation in modern takes between them and fae folklore, if we're going to insist on staying true to the folklore in our depictions, perhaps exclusively tying the banshee to an alien humanoid (as Golarion's elves are) that originates from a totally different culture may be seen as a strange way to do that.

Elves "originate" in Norse folklore, if folklore ever really "originates," but the Norse and various Celtic cultures had hundreds of years of interaction, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making with that.

The banshee as it currently stands is an undead elf woman, which is close enough to certain readings of the folklore. Why would you change it to reflect folklore LESS? Do you hate folklore in general, or just unique and interesting monsters?

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

There’s always going to be “filing off” of serial numbers when transmigrating real-world folklore/myths/legends to a campaign setting that isn’t set on Earth. It’s kind of an auto-assumption. And endless hand-wringing on how “authentic” those transmigrations are are in essence, a waste of time, with no “correct” answer.

Personally, nothing about having “clay golems” as a statblock means I can’t inject more nuance derived from anywhere in my imagination or real world cultures. Or I can ignore all of human culture for *my* presentation of clay (or any) golems in my game at my discretion.

Similarly, while I prefer the ban-shee as a mangled transliteration of “dark-elf” and thus dark-fae spirit, typically but not exclusively tied to the woods, I lean more on the elfin/fae-spirit than vengeful ghost.

Not sure why anyone should call any of that “tasteless”. Have your own imagination.

Of course there is some change inherent in adaptation. The issue I have is that the Banshee is an example of something that was adapted suitably well - not perfectly, but it fits into the setting and is useful for its purpose - and then someone wants to come along and wants to wipe away its defining characteristic for not being generic enough.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

Kaspyr2077 wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Perhaps you missed my point. I don't object to banshee being fae. Elves originate from Norse mythology, and despite much conflation in modern takes between them and fae folklore, if we're going to insist on staying true to the folklore in our depictions, perhaps exclusively tying the banshee to an alien humanoid (as Golarion's elves are) that originates from a totally different culture may be seen as a strange way to do that.

Elves "originate" in Norse folklore, if folklore ever really "originates," but the Norse and various Celtic cultures had hundreds of years of interaction, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making with that.

The banshee as it currently stands is an undead elf woman, which is close enough to certain readings of the folklore. Why would you change it to reflect folklore LESS? Do you hate folklore in general, or just unique and interesting monsters?

I for one don’t think removing the folklore makes it any less unique or interesting as a RPG “creature”, and I figure being able to apply that uniqueness and those interesting qualities to *more* creatures/situations makes it…more generally usable, in more settings and more situations. Personally I wouldn’t use it other than it basically is, but I wouldn’t be upset if others did. I’m not sure that “hating folklore” applies. Either the root of the story can hold more concepts, or it can’t. And that, again is up to each individual.

Kaspyr2077 wrote:

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

There’s always going to be “filing off” of serial numbers when transmigrating real-world folklore/myths/legends to a campaign setting that isn’t set on Earth. It’s kind of an auto-assumption. And endless hand-wringing on how “authentic” those transmigrations are are in essence, a waste of time, with no “correct” answer.

Personally, nothing about having “clay golems” as a statblock means I can’t inject more nuance derived from anywhere in my imagination or real world cultures. Or I can ignore all of human culture for *my* presentation of clay (or any) golems in my game at my discretion.

Similarly, while I prefer the ban-shee as a mangled transliteration of “dark-elf” and thus dark-fae spirit, typically but not exclusively tied to the woods, I lean more on the elfin/fae-spirit than vengeful ghost.

Not sure why anyone should call any of that “tasteless”. Have your own imagination.

Of course there is some change inherent in adaptation. The issue I have is that the Banshee is an example of something that was adapted suitably well… not perfectly, but it fits into the setting and is useful for its purpose - and then someone wants to come along and wants to wipe away its defining characteristic for not being generic enough..

The degree to which is was “suitably” adapted is a matter of opinion that would run the gamut from devout Irish mythologers to collectible card gamers “who cares, give me the stats”. And again, being free to wipe the cultural attending mores is really up to any person to do. Authors have twisted malleable myths since the dawn of campfires. I could just as easily see a bansheeas an errant corrupted computer AI-virus upset at being discorporated in proto-Neo Lunar Colony 6 as I could a Celtic bean-sidhe haunting an axe handle in a faux-Ireland with witches, ovates and spriggans.

[Kobold Catgirl]

FallenDabus wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Calliope5431 wrote:

Temperans wrote:

Wait what is the issue with the word golem?

Original first usage of the word was from Jewish mysticism, they were legendary constructs that could be created by inscribing words in Hebrew on their foreheads.

The most famous legend is the Golem of Prague from the 1500s, which was created by a rabbi to guard the Jewish people of the city from anti-Semitism. The golem goes mad on the Sabbath and eventually has to be shut down by the rabbi.

I can see an argument for it being problematic since it pulls from non-mainstream folklore. On the other hand, so do genies and kami, and they clearly aren't going away (and most people would argue they aren't problematic).

My Jewish friends like them because it's fun to see your culture represented in the game. For them, I get the impression that it's comparable to seeing Tian Xia if you have Asian ancestry, or Rusalkas if you have Slavic ancestry. Makes you feel more welcome. But I can see the counterarguments to the contrary, and I certainly don't want to argue with anyone Jewish who's offended by it.

*sigh* really that's it? That's why the name is changing? I don't even know what to say to that reason.

So, unfortuately I'm several months late and hopefully this doesn't derail, but I do have a more detailed answer for you. Give that it was recently confirmed the golem is becoming the bulwark, I think its topical too.

When ever the discussion of golems in RPGs comes up, I always think of this post. I know several Jewish RPG players very unconfortable with the use of the word, and even though I know many who are okay with it, Heavy Arms explains his issue very ellquoently. I've included it below the spoiler, so others can read it too and hopefully find it as helpful as I have. It is notable because he has no issue with golems existing in RPGs... he just wants them to actually be golems.

You can read the post I've quoted below in its original context...

Thank you for sharing it! Very compelling read.

I should also note that Paizo has indicated other "mythological/modern religion-based monsters", like genies and rakshasas, will be seeing changes to move them closer to their roots. Really exciting to see what we're getting! The homogenized pop culturey versions always felt like less than they could have been.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

Kaspyr2077 wrote:

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

Perhaps you missed my point. I don't object to banshee being fae. Elves originate from Norse mythology, and despite much conflation in modern takes between them and fae folklore, if we're going to insist on staying true to the folklore in our depictions, perhaps exclusively tying the banshee to an alien humanoid (as Golarion's elves are) that originates from a totally different culture may be seen as a strange way to do that.

Elves "originate" in Norse folklore, if folklore ever really "originates," but the Norse and various Celtic cultures had hundreds of years of interaction, so I'm not sure what point you think you're making with that.

The banshee as it currently stands is an undead elf woman, which is close enough to certain readings of the folklore. Why would you change it to reflect folklore LESS? Do you hate folklore in general, or just unique and interesting monsters?

Have I insulted you somehow that you would attack me so? This assessment is neither accurate nor fair. You claim that the dead elf is accurate to the folklore but you seem unbothered that you have blurred several different cultures together on the assumption that they probably knew each other once, so their folklore is thereby indistinguishable.

A cursory read of my most recent post should be enough to disabuse anyone of the confusing claim that I dislike folklore. It would be foolish of me to assume what has been misread once cannot be misread again, however, so let me reiterate in clearer terms:

I support the idea that a remastered version of the banshee might take a turn closer to their mythological roots and be classed as a type of fae spirit. It is strange to me that the baobhan sidhe is fey, while the banshee is undead. Meanwhile, given that the elves of Golarion are not fae, nor in any particular way associated with the First World, it's even stranger that these random humanoids from another planet have some unique form of (very high-level) undeath when nothing about elves should seem to lend them to such. More to the point, it would seem more logical for the fae-descended gnomes to be more inclined to manifesting a banshee spirit than elves. If banshee have to be undead, why not choose an actual fae creature for them to originate from?

I don't want to scrub away anything that makes the banshee unique, I simply want to stop pretending that another weird D&Dism a couple decade old still makes sense despite the associations that created it no longer being true in the current state of the game.

In any case, banshee in Golarion are tied to elves regardless. I don't imagine they will suddenly have nothing to do with each other unless the OGL-necessitated changes force Paizo's hand on the matter and we get another minor "this was thought to be the case but it turns out to have been a false association once historians and ecologists actually talked to people in the area."

[Kaspyr2077]

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

You claim that the dead elf is accurate to the folklore

I did nothing of the sort. I objected to you wanting to remove the elf bit - the IMPORTANT bit - from the creature. It's not an elf ghost, originally. It's an elf. I'm okay with elf ghost, in an adaptation. You want to make it just a ghost, and that's a bit too far for it to be the same thing. It's not even related to the original, at that point.

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

but you seem unbothered that you have blurred several different cultures together on the assumption that they probably knew each other once, so their folklore is thereby indistinguishable.

... Seriously? The... assumption... that they had met...

There is endless documented history and reams of paper devoted to analyzing the commonalities and divergeces of mythology and folklore between the Celts and the Norse.

In this case, the reason why the site I cited translated sidhe to "elf" was because those stories are closely enough related to be more or less the same thing.

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

I support the idea that a remastered version of the banshee might take a turn closer to their mythological roots and be classed as a type of fae spirit. It is strange to me that the baobhan sidhe is fey, while the banshee is undead. Meanwhile, given that the elves of Golarion are not fae, nor in any particular way associated with the First World, it's even stranger that these random humanoids from another planet have some unique form of (very...

Make it an elf thing, and that's fine. Make it a fae thing, and that's fine. You want it to just be a ghost thing, and that's just not a banshee any more.

[Sibelius Eos Owm]

You want to homogenize two similar mythical beings from two different cultures and I'm the one who hates folklore. Funny thing is, among the things these cultures have in common is how little we know about the state of the folklore before Christianization. We simply do not have the information to track the no doubt rich folklorical similarities and connections.

Consider stepping back from this issue just a bit. You have accused me several times of trying to turn the banshee into just a ghost, but not once have I said this. You may find that we don't disagree as stringently as you believe. I want to take the elf out of the banshee because elves are not fae, and even if we had those reams of paper with us now to prove they are mythologically identical beings, the elves that exist in Pathfinder 2e are still not fae, either.

In any case we stray ever further from the topic of this thread. This may be a good time to put down this debate. If you cannot be swayed by any means that I have no desire to turn the banshee into a generic ghost when I've said explicitly otherwise, perhaps we can agree it's not worth the ink spilled on the topic to continue.

[OceanshieldwolPF 2.5]

And that’s the thing with pulling real-world folklore into established Campaign Settings. My understanding was that Golarion’s elves are aliens from Castrovel, and not tied to the fey/fae or the First World.

[Benjamin Tait]

I can see Banshees being unmarried from Elves anyhow, since that connection is pretty much just an OGL thing right? The Rakshasa has experienced greater changes over it, lost their backwards hands and are now primordial evil spirits, not even fiends anymore. So I'd be surprised if Banshees were entirely unchanged.

[PossibleCabbage]

You know, if you asked me off hand whether Banshees in Pathfinder had more to do with Elves or the First World, I probably would have guessed the latter.

[Kaspyr2077]

Benjamin Tait wrote:

I can see Banshees being unmarried from Elves anyhow, since that connection is pretty much just an OGL thing right? The Rakshasa has experienced greater changes over it, lost their backwards hands and are now primordial evil spirits, not even fiends anymore. So I'd be surprised if Banshees were entirely unchanged.

The OGL can't reserve folklore for WotC's use.

OceanshieldwolPF 2.5 wrote:

And that’s the thing with pulling real-world folklore into established Campaign Settings. My understanding was that Golarion’s elves are aliens from Castrovel, and not tied to the fey/fae or the First World.

And that is certainly one of the established things about the setting, which complicates things, because the banshee comes from a body of traditional lore where elves and sidhe are basically synonymous. It means you can't have the banshee be both in this setting. Seems odd, but workable. Not having the banshee be EITHER just makes me wonder what about it is supposed to be a banshee.

Sibelius Eos Owm wrote:

You want to homogenize two similar mythical beings from two different cultures and I'm the one who hates folklore. Funny thing is, among the things these cultures have in common is how little we know about the state of the folklore before Christianization. We simply do not have the information to track the no doubt rich folklorical similarities and connections.

Do not act as if the commonalities between Norse and Celtic culture originates with me. There are countless books on the subject. If you're more of a casual enjoyer of mythology, folklore, and history, the mutual influence of Norse and Celtic cultures is a subject that frequently comes up on several YouTube channels. My favorite folklore channel is The Fortress of Lugh, and while the Norse influence doesn't come up in every video, it has been mentioned several times in the ones I've watched. Yes, a lot of it has been lost to time and Christianization. No, not enough has been lost that we can't study cultural influences.

I searched "etymology banshee" and cited the first good link. I didn't go shopping for it. That was the Etymonline quote, translating "sidhe" as "elf." I do not understand how you could in good faith insist that elves and Irish folklore have no connection, and that's something I'm making up.

[Kobold Catgirl]

The tone of this argument feels a little needlessly hostile for what seems to be (from my understanding) an argument about whether banshees were mythologically Fey or Undead.

Personally, I think they should be undead gnome spirits. Best of all worlds there. Elves always get all the attention; gnomes deserve the pathos. Gnomes are often bards, too! Perfect match-up. We don't have enough scary Small-sized monsters.

Ooh, or what if she's an undead/fallen psychopomp? Totally new direction for her there. I'm being a little silly, here.