|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Compounding the issue is that Starfinder has a lot of drow too, where they're ironically more integrated into mainstream interstellar society than regular elves!
Paizo also has to avoid writing themselves into a corner where the drow (or whatever they end up being called eventually) of Pathfinder 2e have become SO different that they contradict what they'll eventually become in Starfinder. The Gap IS a decent way to hand-wave a lot of inconsistencies, but eventually you run into a Fullmetal Alchemist kind of situation where the evolution of the original has diverged from what the adaptation anticipated so much that the adaptation can no longer be considered canon and a new adaptation has to be created.
I guess that conundrum will be solved by Starfinder 2E sooner or later.
I would enjoy it if they became aberrant, much like the demons in the Demon Hunter anime. The more powerful & evil, the more warped so that Driders (or whatever replaces them) represent an (un-)natural progression.
That could even allow normal Drow to retain their not-Elf coloration, with the Evil Drow coming in all shades. Heck, the more deviant one gets from normal Drow-ness, the more indicative of one's corruption. That should separate the components of the issue.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Drow are some of my favorite villains ever. Removing "alignment" doesn't mean removing good and evil. It just means removing it as a rules system. There's still going to be a lot of evil- otherwise, what are heroes railing against?
And drow were perverted by demons down in the Darklands. I don't see them deciding to start skipping and picking daisies, just because of a divorce from the OGL. They'll just possibly need tweaks to keep them strictly Paizo creatures.
Also, when Roll For Combat mentioned drow, Erik got super gleeful and said there were definitely plans in place.
That would get into ableist 'not properly Normal' territory, Castilliano.
Definitely not recommended.
EDIT: A cool story element, imo, would be that driders are a fleshwarp approach to solving mobility issues. No alignment, the folks that don't care for them are weirded out by the idea, etc.
| 9 people marked this as a favorite. |
That would get into ableist 'not properly Normal' territory, Castilliano.
Definitely not recommended.
No one wins in this new age. No one is allowed to have any fun anymore, not at the vaguest mere risk of even seeming offensive.
What a waste of time and energy.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
There's definitely a push to see body modification and body horror options, including a version of Fleshwarp as a heritage instead of a discrete ancestry. If they introduced that, and offered Drow as an elf exclusive lineage within that heritage, I could see that flying.
I still think Drow should be handled as an Ancestry Archetype like with the undead options, but adding this lineage could work as well. They could be written to work with each other as well.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If people are associating black/dark with being Evil, that's a problem of the people making the association, not of the color itself.
You are not wrong!
But in the end, for some people, you still have to explain to some people that you're not wrong. And from a company point of view, I would avoid it, purely and simply to avoid unnecessary problems for my company.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Some things will stay the same. Some things are going to significantly change. I'm actually pretty nervous about how everyone's gonna react to some of it... but it HAS TO HAPPEN.
For what its worth, the fact that the change must be made but its going to take things in a new, more distinct direction has me excited. I know there are probably going to be some things I like as casualties, but its evolution not destruction. That has me hyped. I look forward to seeing what you all are up to.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I have talked to black people who don't see the issue***********************
I hope you realize that that is problematic logic.
It's like saying, "I have a [insert some type here] friend who has no problem with me using the [blank] word, so it's fine if I just walk around singing that word out at the top of my lungs."
Just because one person doesn't see an issue or doesn't know the history of a concept doesn't clean it up.
.
Drow in D&D are sadly more directly wrapped up with real world racial tensions than anything else the old 1970s game ever did.
It's not something one can just handwave away because it so directly ties to some extremely bad real world stuff.
.
And I wouldn't even need to go into that merit. Instead, for me it is, for your friend it is OK, but for someone who is not your friend it may not be.
And as I said, from a company's point of view, almost always (with the exception of marketing, where the objective is to draw attention and controversy is a weapon) the least risky option is the best, if there is no gain there is no reason to take a risk .
|
There's definitely a push to see body modification and body horror options, including a version of Fleshwarp as a heritage instead of a discrete ancestry. If they introduced that, and offered Drow as an elf exclusive lineage within that heritage, I could see that flying.
I still think Drow should be handled as an Ancestry Archetype like with the undead options, but adding this lineage could work as well. They could be written to work with each other as well.
So like, I could start my career as a dwarven monk, then at like 2nd, 6th, or 12th level take Drow Dedication and get some basic drow benefits (probably lowlight/darkvision and maybe something else)
Later archetypes could give 1/day spells, or something akin to magic resistance, Proficiency with crossbows or poisons, other drow things?If "drow" becomes more representative of the process of being corrupted by the presence of Rovagug, that's a way to do it.
Actually, if we do that, Drow could be a versatile heritage. Representative of the lingering effects of a malignant extraplanar entity, and not restricted to elves.
It's kinda wild but I like it.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?
It's not about making Drow with black skin never exist, because besides being a bad way out, it can backfire on you. But making this irrelevant by giving them diversities (for example, dark elves with ethnic origins or biological adaptations to different situations causing them to have different physical characteristics) regardless of their alignment to cruelty, would avoid or at least break good part of the justification for any malicious association.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
In an ideal world, the style of hair, dress, and existence of tattoos or piercings would have no impact on a person's professional career.
In an ideal world, teenagers could walk home at night wearing whatever makes them comfortable without any risk.
In an ideal world, a game company could make a dark skinned variant ancestry whose members are predominantly evil without anyone drawing parallels to real world political and cultural topics.
But we don't live in an ideal world. People and companies have to make compromises of their idealism due to the realities of the world that we live in. And not all of them make the same compromises.
It is not our place to judge and nag another person or company because they didn't make the compromises that we ourselves would.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
As someone who was alive and playing when drow were first introduced, no one went in a political direction and my gaming group was diverse before diversity was pushed so hard.
There was a time in the world where everyone didn't automatically try to fit square pegs into round holes trying to politicize everything. They played the game and enjoyed the novelty or surprise of something new.
Drow were some evil elves that showed up in the basement of the Fire Giant King that no one knew what they were. We fought them when they tried to kill us.
The drow were made as a surprise enemy in a module way back when. They didn't even to my knowledge have a fully developed background until they became popular and gamers started asking, "Who are these weird elves?"
Then it was developed more in the Vault of Drow series until you got to square off against Lolth, Queen of the Demonweb pits. One of the first times I recall squaring off against a named Demon Lord.
Pretty fun series of modules. We had a blast playing it.
The drow became immensely popular. So Gygax kept building on them until you could play them. Then everyone and their mother wanted to play one because of how cool they were.
Magic resistance. Free Ambidexterity. Bad ass two weapon fighting style. Powerful innate magical powers. Always described as beautiful, lithe, and extraordinarily badass.
Not sure when someone decided to take the drow and turn them into some pseudointellectual attempt to tack on real world implications to their existence. It certainly wasn't Joe Gamer who wanted to play a powerful drow PC.
I can only attribute this to the modernistic attempts to politicize nearly everything and try to tack on some hidden agenda to something that was created by an author trying to add something cool, scary, and different to his game.
Drow happened to have grown so popular over the years that everyone and their mother has something to say about them. For those us that enjoyed this Gygaxian creation when it first came out, I can...
Isn't this just a really wordier version of my best friend is black and he had no problem with it?
There's definitely a push to see body modification and body horror options, including a version of Fleshwarp as a heritage instead of a discrete ancestry. If they introduced that, and offered Drow as an elf exclusive lineage within that heritage, I could see that flying.
I still think Drow should be handled as an Ancestry Archetype like with the undead options, but adding this lineage could work as well. They could be written to work with each other as well.
So like, I could start my career as a dwarven monk, then at like 2nd, 6th, or 12th level take Drow Dedication and get some basic drow benefits (probably lowlight/darkvision and maybe something else)
Later archetypes could give 1/day spells, or something akin to magic resistance, Proficiency with crossbows or poisons, other drow things?If "drow" becomes more representative of the process of being corrupted by the presence of Rovagug, that's a way to do it.
Actually, if we do that, Drow could be a versatile heritage. Representative of the lingering effects of a malignant extraplanar entity, and not restricted to elves.
It's kinda wild but I like it.
Elven Monk, but yes. Drow are both born and transformed, so having the mechanical ability to do either and both is important to me.
I think having a versatile heritage that treads this ground would be good, but a elf only options within that heritage would let something’s be DROW while most of the work goes to the larger concept.
| 5 people marked this as a favorite. |
I removed several posts (and those that quoted them) for malicious speech. Hopefully this lets this thread stay focused.
-Jim
*Shakes head in disbelief*
You and I have VERY different ideas of what constitutes "malicious speech."
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
You find them for me in a Pathfinder Second Edition book and then we'll talk. Lots of things from 1e were left behind, usually with good reason.We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki.
The thing is, Pathfinder 2E is a direct continuation of 1E, and 2E is focused on Golarion still. The second edition update specifically kept Golarion, just advancing the timeline, to not render all the old material useless.The 1E material didn't magically disappear from existence, an its still going to be referenced and referred to, especially by folks who started in 1E.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
There's definitely a push to see body modification and body horror options, including a version of Fleshwarp as a heritage instead of a discrete ancestry. If they introduced that, and offered Drow as an elf exclusive lineage within that heritage, I could see that flying.
I still think Drow should be handled as an Ancestry Archetype like with the undead options, but adding this lineage could work as well. They could be written to work with each other as well.
So like, I could start my career as a dwarven monk, then at like 2nd, 6th, or 12th level take Drow Dedication and get some basic drow benefits (probably lowlight/darkvision and maybe something else)
Later archetypes could give 1/day spells, or something akin to magic resistance, Proficiency with crossbows or poisons, other drow things?If "drow" becomes more representative of the process of being corrupted by the presence of Rovagug, that's a way to do it.
Actually, if we do that, Drow could be a versatile heritage. Representative of the lingering effects of a malignant extraplanar entity, and not restricted to elves.
It's kinda wild but I like it.Elven Monk, but yes. Drow are both born and transformed, so having the mechanical ability to do either and both is important to me.
I think having a versatile heritage that treads this ground would be good, but a elf only options within that heritage would let something’s be DROW while most of the work goes to the larger concept.
But do they HAVE to be?
It might be that any relatively humanoid creature subjected to the same experiences as the elves who went underground during Earthfall would have a similar physiological result.I would find that satisfactory and it certainly differentiates from the contemporary idea of what "drow" are.
| 10 people marked this as a favorite. |
The thing is, Pathfinder 2E is a direct continuation of 1E, and 2E is focused on Golarion still. The second edition update specifically kept Golarion, just advancing the timeline, to not render all the old material useless.The 1E material didn't magically disappear from existence, an its still going to be referenced and referred to, especially by folks who started in 1E.You find them for me in a Pathfinder Second Edition book and then we'll talk. Lots of things from 1e were left behind, usually with good reason.We are once again arguing about black-skinned Drow, who have never existed in PF2. Why?Go look them up on the Pathfinder wiki.
Certainly, but there's also a clear shift in intentionality with the new edition. You don't see black-skinned Drow in 2e books for the same reason that the 2e Mwangi book isn't obsessed with cannibalism and "witch doctors" despite 1e taking that direction. Paizo staff have talked about the shift to lilac skin on their Drow being an internal mandate.
Clinging to outdated stuff just because it once saw print, despite writers speaking to things changing and moving on + newer publications explicitly overwriting them, isn't terribly productive for a conversation about what's getting into canon books nowadays. It's as relevant as followers of Asmodeus the benevolent goddess - which is to say, not at all.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I mean to use a closer example Nagaji got rewritten that a lot of the 1e lore was just incorrect.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But do they HAVE to be?
It might be that any relatively humanoid creature subjected to the same experiences as the elves who went underground during Earthfall would have a similar physiological result.
I would find that satisfactory and it certainly differentiates from the contemporary idea of what "drow" are.
To my taste, yes that’s what I’d prefer.
Which isn’t to say I dislike what you’re saying. I’d envision a versatile heritage that is broadly like Nephilim or Geniekin are sometimes the result of planar energy exposure. In this case, the heritage would be due to Rovagug or Earthfall exposure, and mechanical would introduce some body horror or several of the options you mention upthread.
Then, within that heritage, I’d want a Drow lineage open only to elves that has some of the more iconic Drow powers/abilities. Some could be part of the heritage as a while, but I’d want at least 1-2 Drow only feats. Though with only 5 feat slots, one of which would need to be this lineage, you can’t pack too much into this, but some iconic stuff could be done.
Additionally I’d want to see an archetype that requires Elf ancestry that has the more powerful Drow options opened up. This would be how you could get playable Drow Noble.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
But do they HAVE to be?
It might be that any relatively humanoid creature subjected to the same experiences as the elves who went underground during Earthfall would have a similar physiological result.
I would find that satisfactory and it certainly differentiates from the contemporary idea of what "drow" are.To my taste, yes that’s what I’d prefer.
Which isn’t to say I dislike what you’re saying. I’d envision a versatile heritage that is broadly like Nephilim or Geniekin are sometimes the result of planar energy exposure. In this case, the heritage would be due to Rovagug or Earthfall exposure, and mechanical would introduce some body horror or several of the options you mention upthread.
Then, within that heritage, I’d want a Drow lineage open only to elves that has some of the more iconic Drow powers/abilities. Some could be part of the heritage as a while, but I’d want at least 1-2 Drow only feats. Though with only 5 feat slots, one of which would need to be this lineage, you can’t pack too much into this, but some iconic stuff could be done.
Additionally I’d want to see an archetype that requires Elf ancestry that has the more powerful Drow options opened up. This would be how you could get playable Drow Noble.
I would eat this up. I've been begging for some kind aberrant Versatile Heritage, and this is a really interesting way to do that while still letting Fleshwarps be distinct.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would eat this up. I've been begging for some kind aberrant Versatile Heritage, and this is a really interesting way to do that while still letting Fleshwarps be distinct.But do they HAVE to be?
It might be that any relatively humanoid creature subjected to the same experiences as the elves who went underground during Earthfall would have a similar physiological result.
I would find that satisfactory and it certainly differentiates from the contemporary idea of what "drow" are.To my taste, yes that’s what I’d prefer.
Which isn’t to say I dislike what you’re saying. I’d envision a versatile heritage that is broadly like Nephilim or Geniekin are sometimes the result of planar energy exposure. In this case, the heritage would be due to Rovagug or Earthfall exposure, and mechanical would introduce some body horror or several of the options you mention upthread.
Then, within that heritage, I’d want a Drow lineage open only to elves that has some of the more iconic Drow powers/abilities. Some could be part of the heritage as a while, but I’d want at least 1-2 Drow only feats. Though with only 5 feat slots, one of which would need to be this lineage, you can’t pack too much into this, but some iconic stuff could be done.
Additionally I’d want to see an archetype that requires Elf ancestry that has the more powerful Drow options opened up. This would be how you could get playable Drow Noble.
If you don't go full ancestry with them, then this is absolutely the best way to handle them.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would love to see more body horror in Pathfinder 2e. I sorely miss the options and themes from 1e's Horror Adventures, particularly the spells.
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would love to see more body horror in Pathfinder 2e. I sorely miss the options and themes from 1e's Horror Adventures, particularly the spells.
Blood Lords had some wonderfully gruesome spells across it: a bunch of em in Book 1 and Flense in the final book. Undertaker from Book 4 isn't especially body horror-y, but might be my favorite PF2 spell.
But yes, always more room for gross weirdness. I'm rooting for an Aberration bestiary book someday soon!
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would love to see more body horror in Pathfinder 2e. I sorely miss the options and themes from 1e's Horror Adventures, particularly the spells.Blood Lords had some wonderfully gruesome spells across it: a bunch of em in Book 1 and Flense in the final book. Undertaker from Book 4 isn't especially body horror-y, but might be my favorite PF2 spell.
But yes, always more room for gross weirdness. I'm rooting for an Aberration bestiary book someday soon!
A little sad "vomit swarm" is a blast spell and not a summon anymore. Something about this change guts the spell of it's thematic, aesthetic, and revolting impact
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
As can be seen on my avatar, I love Drow. While I get the need for the changes, I just hope we can get something similar enough that it can be used to replicate them.
Please?
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Compounding the issue is that Starfinder has a lot of drow too, where they're ironically more integrated into mainstream interstellar society than regular elves!
Paizo also has to avoid writing themselves into a corner where the drow (or whatever they end up being called eventually) of Pathfinder 2e have become SO different that they contradict what they'll eventually become in Starfinder. The Gap IS a decent way to hand-wave a lot of inconsistencies, but eventually you run into a Fullmetal Alchemist kind of situation where the evolution of the original has diverged from what the adaptation anticipated so much that the adaptation can no longer be considered canon and a new adaptation has to be created.
I believe this ship has already sailed - Starfinder's Nocticula was never redeemed, and there's a few other points of divergence as well. My recollection is that they're considered two separate timelines/universes, so that the canon of one never stifles the other, though extraordinary magic (like that PFS Special) can allow for crossover.
Everyone's favorite Space Arms Dealers aren't going anywhere even if their Golarion 'ancestors' get a shakeup... though I imagine post-OGL changes are coming to Starfinder, too.
|
|
Compounding the issue is that Starfinder has a lot of drow too, where they're ironically more integrated into mainstream interstellar society than regular elves!
Paizo also has to avoid writing themselves into a corner where the drow (or whatever they end up being called eventually) of Pathfinder 2e have become SO different that they contradict what they'll eventually become in Starfinder. The Gap IS a decent way to hand-wave a lot of inconsistencies, but eventually you run into a Fullmetal Alchemist kind of situation where the evolution of the original has diverged from what the adaptation anticipated so much that the adaptation can no longer be considered canon and a new adaptation has to be created.
I believe this ship has already sailed - Starfinder's Nocticula was never redeemed, and there's a few other points of divergence as well. My recollection is that they're considered two separate timelines/universes, so that the canon of one never stifles the other, though extraordinary magic (like that PFS Special) can allow for crossover.
Everyone's favorite Space Arms Dealers aren't going anywhere even if their Golarion 'ancestors' get a shakeup... though I imagine post-OGL changes are coming to Starfinder, too.
Wait, seriously?! That's GOT to be an oversight or something!
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Er…no.
That’s the entire point of the gap. They knew that they wanted to develop both storylines with different teams, and didn’t want developments of one to shackle the ideas of the other. So the idea of the gap was introduced. It sits squarely on the timeline of Pathfinder and lets Starfinder characters go “Golly, we have no physical or historical record of what happened during that period”, allowing any discrepancies to simply not matter.
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I know, if anything, Paizo will want to put their own spin on their version of the drow, but hear me out. In A Practical Guide to Evil, drow have rap battles. Granted, they are using ancient poetry, but... rap battles. When someone wins 9 times in a row, they are not allowed to be killed for 9 days - they're still drow after all ;)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.
Genius? Or laziness?
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.Genius? Or laziness?
Could be both. They're not mutually exclusive. ;-)
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.
Less probably that and more of a lets add a mystery to the setting. Its not like cinema sins and tvtropes were ever the pinnacle of writing so its not like Paizo was going to ever base any decision on that style of complaint.
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
Drow are clearly way too controversial for the setting, full stop. Folks can't even handle an honest discussion about what ACTUALLY WAS published for PF1 let alone try to try to force the writers to adopt their personal desired flavor or designs for them.
Just avoid it altogether and if they NEED a lore justification for it, just publish a chapter on the Darklands that covers how one deity or another erased them from existence and the timeline. The intended/targeted consumers for PF2 aren't mature enough to deal with it in any way that doesn't essentially rebrand them into something that is entirely divorced from what they have been in the existing setting, how they're viewed and portrayed in other media, and the narrative surrounding how some try to point to their skin colors and say it's some kind of dog whistle about racial purity.
They're nowhere near interesting, cool, or crucial enough to the setting to bother risking the ire of gamers for either upsetting tradition or trying to represent them as they've been known to be for decades.
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.Genius? Or laziness?
Preemptively addressing the segment of the fandom that lives to spot continuity discrepancies as "plot holes" or "proof the developers hate their own setting" seems smart to me.
Although I suppose if I was part of that group, I might see the refusal to pander to me as laziness.
A lot of people care. Also who called them the pinnacle of writing? CinemaSins is satire that pokes fun at all the errors and weirdness. TVTropes is a massive encyclopedia on tropes used by writers, its not meant to be a pinnacle of anything just a reference guide.Less probably that and more who cares? Its not like cinema sins and tvtropes were ever the pinnacle of writing.
In this age of cinema sins and TVTropes, I thought writing in something that lets you have concurrently developing continuities without having to continually reconcile those continuities was genius.
I mean I do agree with you that it is kind of fun to look at aspects of a story and see the weird little incongruities but sometimes people take it way to far and it gets kind of ridiculous.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
With a panel about The Darklands at Paizocon and a mention of a nostalgic AP coming soon, I kind of wonder if we might be getting a sequel to Second Darkness, which sort of "blows up" the current status quo for Drow. Maybe the AP ends with them up on the surface, or no longer evil, or wiped and and replaced with a new evil Darklands creature. Or otherwise altered in a way that further divorces Drow from OGL/WotC IP
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
On top of that you would think if people really cared as much about the depiction of drow as people are complaining about you would have seen a bigger reaction years ago. But nothing.