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...I wonder if you can actually make drow/dark elves cool again.
Drow were fun because they were evil, because they rejected the elf paradigm everyone had come to know, they were subversive and rebellious. It was because they stood so far above every other race that they were able to do this. To be drow in their first days was to say to the other races, "You are insects to us, cattle, we are the supreme race of elves, more powerful and capable than you. You are but there to serve our purposes when we even bother to notice you."
Magic was like rain water to them. It might occasionally make them wet, but mostly it was a minor discomfort. Their warriors were ambidextrous fighting as easily with two blades as most people write with one hand. Every one of them learned magic whether the power of generating darkness or the more powerful abilities of their priests.
This whole thread completely focuses on this one aspect of the drow and forgets what they were like as though they don't even remember how powerful and frightening the drow were as enemies. What it was like to be stalked in the darkness by these vicious, powerful elves that would feed you to their spider goddess or enslave you if they caught you.
There is no discussion as to they were popular. Why did the drow become popular? It was because they were powerful, not just evil.
Kobolds are evil. Orcs are evil. Lots of creatures of evil. They never reached the popularity of drow.
If you want to make drow popular again or dark elves, take off the boundaries and make them powerful again, scary powerful. Like they were when they first appeared.
My biggest problem with the drow doesn't have anything to do with their skin color. It has to do with them being watered down to the point where they are just some other elf and they've lost all their scariness that was derived from being a powerful race that stood above nearly every other group they faced.
That's the part of I miss with drow and dark elves. When you
They don't have to be elves.
My point was that the drow were originally created with a purpose in the game world and were quite frightening and interesting when first created.
After decades of drow, the drow aren't particularly special any longer. I doubt anyone can make them feel special again. They have been around so long that they are trite.
DMs now roll their eyes when someone makes a drow. Other players don't even bother pretending a drow is anything special in a group any longer. They're just another elf with nothing left but an unusual appearance and remembrances of what they once were, but aren't any more.
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Eh, I think there's a lot of undue nostalgia in that take. Drow are just weird elves, like they always have been. Some people really like that, but it's not really the end of the world to depreciate them either.
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I haven't followed D&D lore in 20 years, so I don't know if this is similar to anything they are doing, but I think that it could help make the Dark Lands scarier if there were large swaths of it where the Darkness below was greater darkness, and regular darkvision only made everything dim light, and you needed a magical light source that was at least rank 5 to counter it. I think this would help environmentally establish that there are places down there that most folks should not go because there are terrors that the unprepared mind can just not see.
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I don't get you folks. If you just want the same ol' Drow in your games, you can just put Drow in your games.
I personally play this game (at least in part) because I am interested in seeing what the writers come up with. I'm not particularly interested in seeing Drow again.
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Preeeeeeetty much :'D I'm also afraid it means starfinder devs will not do much with Apostae at all for foreseeable future because they see planet's lore as doomed already
I feel like Starfinder could rebrand drow as Apostaens (or whatever the proper name is) and do relatively little further adjustment. Extremely corporate interstellar gun-runners whose barren planetoid home may or may not be breaking apart is a fairly long distance from the underground-dwelling Machiavellian wannabes from D&D, while Pathfinder drow are quite a bit closer.
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I don't get you folks. If you just want the same ol' Drow in your games, you can just put Drow in your games.
I personally play this game (at least in part) because I am interested in seeing what the writers come up with. I'm not particularly interested in seeing Drow again.
That's the thing: myself and a number of people were interested in seeing what the writers come up with with Drow
That's why "You can always just put Drow in your home games" is an incredibly unsatisfying response.
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No, but perhaps less interestingWith ghouls, xhulgaths, vault builders/keepers, urdefhans, seugathis, sekmins, gugs, chardas, various forms of undead, morlocks, calignis, deros, myceloids, jinkins, algholthus, and fleshwarps... there's plenty of interesting villains in the Darklands of all levels and covering the full range of "pretty much non-stop evil" all the way to "antihero capable." The removal of drow won't make the Darklands any safer for your PCs.I made my peace with the entire subject. Obviously still not happy yet between 1E, 2E, Pathfinder 1E and 5E have many versions of D&D that I can use the Drow.
All that I ask is that the Darklands have interesting villains in them. They don’t have to be unique just make them competent and fun to use.
To you, I guess so. To me, more interesting. To the rest of the world, I expect a mix of both.
I'm hoping that in the end, this change will be more interesting to most, or at least be a stalemate. Because if it turns out that the part of the Darklands the vast majority of Pathfinder players liked was drow, then that means we (and I, in creating the Darklands in the first place) completely failed at making this region into something for Pathfinder and not D&D.
I've got my fingers crossed that folks are still interested, overall, in the Darklands, and I'm 99% sure most folks will be... but again, for those whose interest in the Darklands and potentially all of Pathfinder hinged on D&D-adjacent drow, there's not much I can do for you other than hope that by this time next year, you'll have found something equally interesting about the game to enjoy. And if that's not the case... that's fine too. No one game is for everyone, and no one game will be any one person's forever favorite. Times and tastes change.
As an educator I tend to get excited about the material that I teach, not every student shares that excitement and I have to be okay with that. In the business world, people tend to vote with their wallets.
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This is remarkably insulting to say in response to a developer.No, but perhaps less interestingWith ghouls, xhulgaths, vault builders/keepers, urdefhans, seugathis, sekmins, gugs, chardas, various forms of undead, morlocks, calignis, deros, myceloids, jinkins, algholthus, and fleshwarps... there's plenty of interesting villains in the Darklands of all levels and covering the full range of "pretty much non-stop evil" all the way to "antihero capable." The removal of drow won't make the Darklands any safer for your PCs.I made my peace with the entire subject. Obviously still not happy yet between 1E, 2E, Pathfinder 1E and 5E have many versions of D&D that I can use the Drow.
All that I ask is that the Darklands have interesting villains in them. They don’t have to be unique just make them competent and fun to use.
It is not your offense to take if he was insulted. People have the right to their opinions, whether you agree with them or not.
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It is not your offense to take if he was insulted. People have the right to their opinions, whether you agree with them or not.This is remarkably insulting to say in response to a developer.No, but perhaps less interestingWith ghouls, xhulgaths, vault builders/keepers, urdefhans, seugathis, sekmins, gugs, chardas, various forms of undead, morlocks, calignis, deros, myceloids, jinkins, algholthus, and fleshwarps... there's plenty of interesting villains in the Darklands of all levels and covering the full range of "pretty much non-stop evil" all the way to "antihero capable." The removal of drow won't make the Darklands any safer for your PCs.I made my peace with the entire subject. Obviously still not happy yet between 1E, 2E, Pathfinder 1E and 5E have many versions of D&D that I can use the Drow.
All that I ask is that the Darklands have interesting villains in them. They don’t have to be unique just make them competent and fun to use.
It was insulting, but part of being on the internet is being able to let insults roll off your back and try to stay positive.
ALSO I saw a delightful new Stephen King movie today, so I'm extra resistant to internet dissatisfaction today!
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It was insulting, but part of being on the internet is being able to let insults roll off your back and try to stay positive.It is not your offense to take if he was insulted. People have the right to their opinions, whether you agree with them or not.This is remarkably insulting to say in response to a developer.No, but perhaps less interestingWith ghouls, xhulgaths, vault builders/keepers, urdefhans, seugathis, sekmins, gugs, chardas, various forms of undead, morlocks, calignis, deros, myceloids, jinkins, algholthus, and fleshwarps... there's plenty of interesting villains in the Darklands of all levels and covering the full range of "pretty much non-stop evil" all the way to "antihero capable." The removal of drow won't make the Darklands any safer for your PCs.I made my peace with the entire subject. Obviously still not happy yet between 1E, 2E, Pathfinder 1E and 5E have many versions of D&D that I can use the Drow.
All that I ask is that the Darklands have interesting villains in them. They don’t have to be unique just make them competent and fun to use.
Part of interacting with anyone is to know that not everyone will agree with you or your opinions either. I meant no insult, only to make a statement that the snakefolk may not be as interesting as the drow.
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I'm of the personal opinion that a setting with no Drow is inherently more interesting than a setting with Drow. I was open-minded to Paizo doing something interesting with something I was personally bored with, since they have succeeded at that sort of thing in the past(like I generally don't like elves, but the Elves in the Mwangi book are great), but if they aren't going to do that then I say good riddance.
Like almost anything you could put in the Darklands is going to interest me more than "mean, squicky elves." Let's do more with Blightburn, or something.
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I'm of the personal opinion that a setting with no Drow is inherently more interesting than a setting with Drow. I was open-minded to Paizo doing something interesting with something I was personally bored with, since they have succeeded at that sort of thing in the past(like I generally don't like elves, but the Elves in the Mwangi book are great), but if they aren't going to do that then I say good riddance.
Like almost anything you could put in the Darklands is going to interest me more than "mean, squicky elves." Let's do more with Blightburn, or something.
My favorite setting of all time is Dragonlance which has its own take on dark elves and not the drow of Greyhawk or other campaign settings. That works, even if there was some nomenclature conventions in early DL fiction that were sorted out in the game system(s) and much of the mess of 2E trying to add the Drow via StarJamming seems to be a kender tale.
That being said, Pathfinder chose to bring the drow into Golarion. Drow were a part of the system from the beginning.
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I just feel like "there's elves underground, and boy are they despicable" was a thing I think I've been bored with for almost 20 years.
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Some drow fans da5e back to their Greyhawk roots.
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Maybe it best just to think of it as Paizo have told all the Drow stories that they feel like they can. They just have no more Drow stories that will ever be more important for them to tell than the other stories that they have been developing for a long time. The confused expectations that some people had about the possibility of more Drow stories is 100% understandable and bound to cause some frustration and disappointment, but that is because the circumstances of telling more Drow stories changed quickly and has made some “maybe one day” stories into, “Nah, not worth it stories.”
Not that the stories were going to be bad, or the people wanting them are bad, but just, “wow! Our world is changing quickly and it is better just to be honest with our fan base about the stories we are leaving for them to tell vs the stories we are going to spend our time and attention.”
As in, telling developers “Do this work that you feel bad about doing (because you feel like these aren’t your ideas to work with anymore) and might get you in a lot of trouble,” is not kind or reasonable.
How well dis drow cwntric material sell?
AP 201--Can our party of heroes stop the sinister scaled Sekmin from assembling their most deadly device yet, the Solar Dominator?“Are we know to expect every Serpentfolk in Golarion to act like Cobra Commander”
yes, no backsiessssss
AP 206 - Having failed to stop the mysterious and ongoing disappearance of owlbears, mimics and drow the party now faces the uncanny noble sekmin, the Snekpeep. The Solar Dominator has been repurposed into the ORC cannon, an unholy device capable of replacing your favorite creature with a bland, beige coloured stand in.
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Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
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Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
Definitely.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yep. One company, out of lots of others using analogs not too far from the originals. There’s plenty of drow around.
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Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Vault of the Drow was also a lot of fun, and it's part of the reason I'm here today working at Paizo. It was one of the more inspiring and interesting adventures from the early days, so to me... the fact that it was decades ago yet is still inspiring is important.
If something I've created remains inspiring 45 years later, I'd be pretty proud!
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As an educator I tend to get excited about the material that I teach,...No, but perhaps less interestingWith ghouls, xhulgaths, vault builders/keepers, urdefhans, seugathis, sekmins, gugs, chardas, various forms of undead, morlocks, calignis, deros, myceloids, jinkins, algholthus, and fleshwarps... there's plenty of interesting villains in the Darklands of all levels and covering the full range of "pretty much non-stop evil" all the way to "antihero capable." The removal of drow won't make the Darklands any safer for your PCs.I made my peace with the entire subject. Obviously still not happy yet between 1E, 2E, Pathfinder 1E and 5E have many versions of D&D that I can use the Drow.
All that I ask is that the Darklands have interesting villains in them. They don’t have to be unique just make them competent and fun to use.
To you, I guess so. To me, more interesting. To the rest of the world, I expect a mix of both.
I'm hoping that in the end, this change will be more interesting to most, or at least be a stalemate. Because if it turns out that the part of the Darklands the vast majority of Pathfinder players liked was drow, then that means we (and I, in creating the Darklands in the first place) completely failed at making this region into something for Pathfinder and not D&D.
I've got my fingers crossed that folks are still interested, overall, in the Darklands, and I'm 99% sure most folks will be... but again, for those whose interest in the Darklands and potentially all of Pathfinder hinged on D&D-adjacent drow, there's not much I can do for you other than hope that by this time next year, you'll have found something equally interesting about the game to enjoy. And if that's not the case... that's fine too. No one game is for everyone, and no one game will be any one person's forever favorite. Times and tastes change.
You know, as another teacher, I like to think two cores of our professions are passion and compassion. Having experienced what it's life for someone not enjoying something I'm passionate about, I do try to do by best not to be rude and antagonistic towards others, even if I'm disinterested. While you are correct that you are entitled to your opinion, you could have easily expressed a similar sentiment in a far more compassionate and understanding way. Hopefully this will be an opportunity to reconsider the impact your words have on others in the future.
Anyhow, Iat least half the things James listed upthread speak to me more than the drow at this point, so while I feel for the people upset about losing them, I think Underdark will be far more interesting with the, getting fleshed out.
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N9t every disagreement is an ad honinim. public people uave to be okaynwiyh people not liking certa9n 8deas orconcepts that they uage created.
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Maybe it best just to think of it as Paizo have told all the Drow stories that they feel like they can. They just have no more Drow stories that will ever be more important for them to tell than the other stories that they have been developing for a long time. The confused expectations that some people had about the possibility of more Drow stories is 100% understandable and bound to cause some frustration and disappointment, but that is because the circumstances of telling more Drow stories changed quickly and has made some “maybe one day” stories into, “Nah, not worth it stories.”
Not that the stories were going to be bad, or the people wanting them are bad, but just, “wow! Our world is changing quickly and it is better just to be honest with our fan base about the stories we are leaving for them to tell vs the stories we are going to spend our time and attention.”
As in, telling developers “Do this work that you feel bad about doing (because you feel like these aren’t your ideas to work with anymore) and might get you in a lot of trouble,” is not kind or reasonable.
This made me realize that reactions to the people feeling the loss of the drows have been markedly more measured and showed more empathy than those we had in the loss of alignment and loss of the Chaotic/Lawful axis threads.
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How well dis drow cwntric material sell?Well considering the Drow centric AP is the worst selling of the first four 3.5 era APs, I'd say not well.
Was that because of the drow or the story? When I read it, the story disnt seem to fkow well.
How well dis drow cwntric material sell?Well considering the Drow centric AP is the worst selling of the first four 3.5 era APs, I'd say not well.
So based on that metric, it seems like Paizo's bottom line margin won't be hurt that much (if at all); if anything, it will probably increase by taking out that low-end outlier.
Yet another reason for Drow to be axed in this game if apparently their appearance isn't all that valued.
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Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.
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That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".
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I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Italics add emphasis.
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I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
The original quoted post had italics.
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I hope the updates to the Darklands don't make the Sekmin overly grandiose. I feel like one of my favorite things about them is that they're both an extremely legitimate and dangerous threat but also kind of pitiable and a little bit lame in the sense of being mostly huddled up in old ruins griping about the good ol' days.
TBH Paizo's really good at writing villains who are both dangerous but also kind of losers (Belcorra comes to mind too, as well as a few characters and groups) so I just hope to see more of that.
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I feel like one of my favorite things about them is that they're both an extremely legitimate and dangerous threat but also kind of pitiable and a little bit lame in the sense of being mostly huddled up in old ruins griping about the good ol' days.
And now I think they should've been called Grognards with that kind of description.
Man, plenty of naming opportunities being missed by Paizo here.
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I hope the updates to the Darklands don't make the Sekmin overly grandiose. I feel like one of my favorite things about them is that they're both an extremely legitimate and dangerous threat but also kind of pitiable and a little bit lame in the sense of being mostly huddled up in old ruins griping about the good ol' days.
TBH Paizo's really good at writing villains who are both dangerous but also kind of losers (Belcorra comes to mind too, as well as a few characters and groups) so I just hope to see more of that.
That's how I feel the Xulgath are often portrayed.
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The original quoted post had italics.I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yes, and still doesn't contradict anything you said. Something can be considered a classic, and also not welcome revisiting. I don't want a Citizen Kane 2 for instance.
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That's how I feel the Xulgath are often portrayed.I hope the updates to the Darklands don't make the Sekmin overly grandiose. I feel like one of my favorite things about them is that they're both an extremely legitimate and dangerous threat but also kind of pitiable and a little bit lame in the sense of being mostly huddled up in old ruins griping about the good ol' days.
TBH Paizo's really good at writing villains who are both dangerous but also kind of losers (Belcorra comes to mind too, as well as a few characters and groups) so I just hope to see more of that.
Same with both Tar-Baphon and Geb, as well as Deskari and Baphomet (though in the case of the latter two that's more emphasized in the PC version of Wrath of the Righteous)!
It reminds me a lot of this musing RPG writer and Tumblr funnyman David J. Prokopetz wrote about Pathfinder's predecessor:
The thing about the default setting of Dungeons & Dragons is that evil is self-defeating not in a metaphysical sense, but in the sense of each individual force of evil being comprised principally of people who suck.
Mind flayers are so invincibly convinced of their own cleverness that their collective history is just an endless litany of them suffering completely predictable ass-kickings at the hands of their own creations, to the point that they’ve lost their empire and been forced to live in caves and still can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
Beholders assume that everybody everywhere is just as treacherous and scheming as they are, and consequently spend most of their time quivering in fortified bunkers freaking out about elves on the moon and completely failing to notice the adventurers on their doorstep.
Chromatic dragons are individually unstoppable, but are incapable of even the most basic coordinated effort because two chromatic dragons in the same geographic region will spend all of their time and energy fighting over which one of them should be in charge.
The collective infernal armies of the Abyss and the Nine Hells could conquer the multiverse basically any time they felt like it, but they never will, because they’ve spent the last billion years slaughtering each other in what amounts to a massive ideological slapfight about the correct way to be evil.
And the funny part is that there’s no overarching authorial agenda that got us here. It’s a bunch of different writers in a bunch of different versions of the game published over many decades independently arriving at the conclusions that a. it’s beneficial for the game if the players can have stupid arguments with the monsters, and b. those arguments will be more entertaining to play out if the monsters are a bunch of dork-ass losers.
I feel like this is a lesson Paizo internalized and used to great effect, even if these specific examples can no longer be found in it (much like the drow themselves)!
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The original quoted post had italics.I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yes, and still doesn't contradict anything you said. Something can be considered a classic, and also not welcome revisiting. I don't want a
Citizen Kane 2 for instance.
No one is asking for a sequal to the Queen of Spiders.
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That's how I feel the Xulgath are often portrayed.I hope the updates to the Darklands don't make the Sekmin overly grandiose. I feel like one of my favorite things about them is that they're both an extremely legitimate and dangerous threat but also kind of pitiable and a little bit lame in the sense of being mostly huddled up in old ruins griping about the good ol' days.
TBH Paizo's really good at writing villains who are both dangerous but also kind of losers (Belcorra comes to mind too, as well as a few characters and groups) so I just hope to see more of that.
Same with both Tar-Baphon and Geb, as well as Deskari and Baphomet (though in the case of the latter two that's more emphasized in the PC version of Wrath of the Righteous)!
It reminds me a lot of this musing RPG writer and Tumblr funnyman David J. Prokopetz wrote about Pathfinder's predecessor:
...The thing about the default setting of Dungeons & Dragons is that evil is self-defeating not in a metaphysical sense, but in the sense of each individual force of evil being comprised principally of people who suck.
Mind flayers are so invincibly convinced of their own cleverness that their collective history is just an endless litany of them suffering completely predictable ass-kickings at the hands of their own creations, to the point that they’ve lost their empire and been forced to live in caves and still can’t figure out what they’re doing wrong.
Beholders assume that everybody everywhere is just as treacherous and scheming as they are, and consequently spend most of their time quivering in fortified bunkers freaking out about elves on the moon and completely failing to notice the adventurers on their doorstep.
Chromatic dragons are individually unstoppable, but are incapable of even the most basic coordinated effort because two chromatic dragons in the same geographic region will spend
A bit too much IMO. I feel Evil is too often portrayed as both stupid and incompetent.
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No one is asking for a sequal to the Queen of Spiders.The original quoted post had italics.I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yes, and still doesn't contradict anything you said. Something can be considered a classic, and also not welcome revisiting. I don't want a
Citizen Kane 2 for instance.
Nah, ya'll are asking for 'store brand' Queen of Spiders which is even weirder TBH.
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Nah, ya'll are asking for 'store brand' Queen of Spiders which is even weirder TBH.No one is asking for a sequal to the Queen of Spiders.The original quoted post had italics.I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yes, and still doesn't contradict anything you said. Something can be considered a classic, and also not welcome revisiting. I don't want a
Citizen Kane 2 for instance.
Some people like the drow, others don't. That is up to them. As paying customers (if that is indeed the case) both sides have the right and in some cases the responsibility to let their opinions be known.
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Some people like the drow, others don't. That is up to them. As paying customers (if that is indeed the case) both sides have the right and in some cases the responsibility to let their opinions be known.Nah, ya'll are asking for 'store brand' Queen of Spiders which is even weirder TBH.No one is asking for a sequal to the Queen of Spiders.The original quoted post had italics.I'm not sure what emphasis you're trying to add. Something happening 45 years ago doesn't contradict anything you said.Italics add emphasis.I absolutely do not read Keftiu's quote as saying otherwise. Quite the opposite actually. So I do not understand why you started with "That does not mean...".That does not mean that it is not a classic which helped create the excitement around the drow for Greyhawk and later the Forgotten Realms and other campaign settings.Vault of the Drow was 45 years ago. There's more Drow content in the traditional mold than any gamer will ever be able to play in their lifetime.
I'm not mourning one company's decision to not do more with them, especially when it risks legal action from an $8b corporation down the line for them to continue clinging.
Yes, and still doesn't contradict anything you said. Something can be considered a classic, and also not welcome revisiting. I don't want a
Citizen Kane 2 for instance.
You could have just said that from the beginning. We did not need the to and fro of nested comments just so someone provided you with the opportunity to say this as a comment on their post.
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Terevalus no need to explain yourself let alone justify how you feel about the change.
The removal of the Drow even with Paizo explanation was going to be a contentious issue with some fans. Some like the change sone don’t both sides can express their thoughts on the issue.
BTW no one here to my knowledge was asking for another Queen of Spiders remake. Wanting the Drow to remain evil, unrepentant, smug, seeking to continual expand and control everything around them. As counterparts to the good elves is not necessarily a bad thing imo.
It may not be everyone cup of tea so to speak. It maybe for some. As I said previously I made peace on the topic others can and should be allowed to voice how they feel if they feel otherwise. As long as it’s fine in a constructive manner.
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There are as many opinions about the de-emphasis of an Ancestry in PF2 as there are those following the setting.
To insist there are only two sides to the concern is both polarizing and unhelpful to the community.
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Not sure how many views one can have on this issue. One either likes or hates the change imo.
Not sure how one can simultaneously want Drow in yet also want them out. I can see it from the angle that they want them in yet changed in terms of behaviour. Others like the Cavern Elves as a replacement.
Then that would be other way to look at it. Not sure their can be that many multiple views on the topic I could be wrong.