Witch Revision Speculation


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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aobst128 wrote:
Life boost is pretty good. Elemental betrayal is kinda funny if you've got a bunch of martials with energy mutagen collars on. I just wish the cantrips were better.

My buddy likes Life Boost when he plays a healer witch, his preferred healer class.


final sacrifice only have 2d6 more damage than fireball

self destruct get 2d6 per level seem scale much better

but not sure how many gm will allow unbalanced adventure path archetype


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Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
I feel like paizo consistently overvalues familiars and PF2 turning the theming of the Witch into "the familiar class" is a huge part of what made them so lackluster.
The only point I'd disagree on is that I wouldn't really call the existing PF2 Witch "the familiar class" in the first place. It's not a very mechanically important feature, outside the fact that you use it as a spellbook (but we don't really call wizards the spellbook class or ask or expect spellbook facing mechanics and spellbook feats, it's more just background noise like the familiar).

I call the current iteration of the Witch "the familiar class" for two reasons.

1) Prior to SoM release, paizo kept hyping that the Witch would be "best at familiars" without mentioning much else. And then there didn't end up being much else.

2) When looking at power budget for the class, the special familiar rules and abilities are the only outlier compared to other classes. Hexes are focus abilities weaker than the focus abilities of many other casters. Patrons don't really do anything other than establishing casting tradition. And this is then attached to the weakest version of the caster chassis with standard spell progression. When you compare it to other casters - it seems paizo valued a daily familiar refresh and a few more familiar abilities as being a significant part of the power budget.

Overall I'd agree that familiars in general aren't a very mechanically important feature - but I'd agrue part of the weakness of the PF2 Witch was trying force familiars to play an important role they were not suited for.

I want to be hopeful the remaster will at least somewhat realize this - but hearing about special familiar patron abilities in the remaster worries me. Like the spoiler for the Rune Witch familiar allowing flanking (but only when you cast/sustain a hex) sounds... bad. Basically encourage an enemy to swat it and remove you class feature for the next 24hrs. If the remaster doubles down on familiars being important to the class, then this ability will only end up more punishing when it encourages familiar suicide.


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Charon Onozuka wrote:
1) Prior to SoM release, paizo kept hyping that the Witch would be "best at familiars" without mentioning much else. And then there didn't end up being much else.

I also vaguely remember hype about how Swashbuckler was going to have movement and mobility options that would make a Monk jealous. LOL

Charon Onozuka wrote:
Overall I'd agree that familiars in general aren't a very mechanically important feature - but I'd agrue part of the weakness of the PF2 Witch was trying force familiars to play an important role they were not suited for.

I would agree with that. Familiars are deliberately hobbled from being useful in combat. Having class features that require the familiar to participate in combat seems - counterproductive.

Currently familiars are marginally useful out of combat for special niche things like sensory options, skills no one else in the party has, or boosting some of the magical power of the familiar's primary character. And they survive to continue doing their job by staying out of combat entirely.


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Charon Onozuka wrote:
Squiggit wrote:
Quote:
I feel like paizo consistently overvalues familiars and PF2 turning the theming of the Witch into "the familiar class" is a huge part of what made them so lackluster.
The only point I'd disagree on is that I wouldn't really call the existing PF2 Witch "the familiar class" in the first place. It's not a very mechanically important feature, outside the fact that you use it as a spellbook (but we don't really call wizards the spellbook class or ask or expect spellbook facing mechanics and spellbook feats, it's more just background noise like the familiar).

I call the current iteration of the Witch "the familiar class" for two reasons.

1) Prior to SoM release, paizo kept hyping that the Witch would be "best at familiars" without mentioning much else. And then there didn't end up being much else.

2) When looking at power budget for the class, the special familiar rules and abilities are the only outlier compared to other classes. Hexes are focus abilities weaker than the focus abilities of many other casters. Patrons don't really do anything other than establishing casting tradition. And this is then attached to the weakest version of the caster chassis with standard spell progression. When you compare it to other casters - it seems paizo valued a daily familiar refresh and a few more familiar abilities as being a significant part of the power budget.

Overall I'd agree that familiars in general aren't a very mechanically important feature - but I'd agrue part of the weakness of the PF2 Witch was trying force familiars to play an important role they were not suited for.

I want to be hopeful the remaster will at least somewhat realize this - but hearing about special familiar patron abilities in the remaster worries me. Like the spoiler for the Rune Witch familiar allowing flanking (but only when you cast/sustain a hex) sounds... bad. Basically encourage an enemy to swat it and remove you class feature for the next 24hrs. If the remaster doubles down on...

The extra familiar abilities directly match up to the wizard thesis, so I think the auto reviving thing is really the only thing that sets the witch familiar apart without further feat investment. Unfortunately, the usefulness of that feature was entirely predicated on whether your GM allowed your familiar to scout for you, and that's a complete shot in the dark based on the forum discussions here.


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Can also be used for a Witch to bypass the 1-week specific familiar swap.

When you swap a specific familiar, you use the rules as if it died. For a Witch, if your familiar dies, then it gets replaced. The Witch can then pick a new specific familiar.

As for the familiar effect spoiler, I wouldn’t be surprised if Phase Familiar became a hex cantrip to encourage the Witch to use their familiar as a utility combatant. Again, from the Druid spoiler, they know that familiars aren’t normally built for combat, and so their adding tools to classes that do use them will be getting the tools so that they can.

I’m pretty certain they’re aware of all the issues of familiars and combat. I don’t think James Case is a slouch when it comes to class design either.


Charon Onozuka wrote:
When looking at power budget for the class, the special familiar rules and abilities are the only outlier compared to other classes. Hexes are focus abilities weaker than the focus abilities of many other casters. Patrons don't really do anything other than establishing casting tradition. And this is then attached to the weakest version of the caster chassis with standard spell progression. When you compare it to other casters - it seems paizo valued a daily familiar refresh and a few more familiar abilities as being a significant part of the power budget.

Eh, the familiar mechanics the Witch get are mostly the same as the Wizard's familiar thesis. The only thing that stands out is the auto-revive, but that was also something added at the last minute after complaints about how easy it was to render the witch unable to prepare spells, so it's unclear how much of a role that really plays in the class budget overall.

When you compare it both to other casters and to itself, what Paizo seems to think is more just that hex cantrips are worth 1 spell/level/day, because that's the major point of differentiation between the Witch and the Wizard (and also the major pivot the class went through after the playtest, where it was originally almost identical to the wizard).

Familiars, as always, have little to do with anything here. It doesn't really make sense for Paizo to suddenly change how they value the familiars in this one specific case alone.


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I mean, if it had so little to do with the class' design, then it shouldn't be hard to change it to where the Familiar is solely opt-in, like it is for every other class that gets access to them.

Paizo's lack of change on this front (and emphasis on doubling down with it) suggests that they find the Familiar a crucial part of the class, which is why it's not opt-in, and now are putting more mechanical emphasis on it in the remaster.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

I like familiars as a small bonus RP thing, with some useful tools for niche scenarios and acting as a pocket mascot NPC. It's important that they don't take up too much screen time, don't get targetted in combat, and have a set characterization that's easy for the party and GM to remember. A familiar shouldn't change much day-to-day because that makes it hard to slip in and out of narrative focus.

Witches getting shackled to their familiar for class features means the familiar gets more screen time than it should, is more likely to get killed than it should, and must change (abilities, appearance, etc.) more than it should.

I simply don't think familiars should be a major feature of any class, and as such should be opt-in.


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To me, I don’t see why not though.

Why not have a class where something minor is their major feature?

Just an example: deities. They offer almost no mechanical bonuses (or even roleplay bonuses) for 20 of the classes. For something that can be minor and insignificant, we have 2 classes (Cleric and Champion) that have it as a major feature and can’t opt out of it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Why can’t there be a class that does the same with familiars?

Personally, I’m not feeling much alarm on the developers doubling-down on the Remaster Witch as the familiar (caster) class.

They can’t playtest the Remaster Witch without playtesting the familiar. There has to be a remaster on familiars.


Tunu40 wrote:

To me, I don’t see why not though.

Why not have a class where something minor is their major feature?

Just an example: deities. They offer almost no mechanical bonuses (or even roleplay bonuses) for 20 of the classes. For something that can be minor and insignificant, we have 2 classes (Cleric and Champion) that have it as a major feature and can’t opt out of it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Why can’t there be a class that does the same with familiars?

Personally, I’m not feeling much alarm on the developers doubling-down on the Remaster Witch as the familiar (caster) class.

They can’t playtest the Remaster Witch without playtesting the familiar. There has to be a remaster on familiars.

Deities are not the main feature of those classes. They are important for lore and theme but you could delete deities and those classes would not care.

Just like you could delete the muses/orders and just make it a clear feat tree (they already kind of are) and bard/druid would not care.


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Deities provide a real mechanical advantage to a cleric. The choice of deity is signification to focus spell options and additional spells on the divine list. They do more for the cleric class than a familiar does for the witch.

I'd be happy if familiars were was mechanically useful a deities to clerics. People don't usually forget their deity focus spells and additional spells.

That's how bad familiars are. They are worse than deities to a cleric. More like deities to a paladin or oracle.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:
Deities provide a real mechanical advantage to a cleric. The choice of deity is signification to focus spell options and additional spells on the divine list. They do more for the cleric class than a familiar does for the witch.

I realize that this is not what you said, but I feel like I should mention this anyway. I don't think Witch class would be improved by having the choice of Patron theme limit the options of focus spells or Lesson feats available, or change one of the freely-chosen 1st level trained skills to be a fixed-option tied to Patron.

Witch does not need changed to have Patron choice be more similar to Cleric's choice of Deity. That would not be an improvement.


Eoran wrote:
Deriven Firelion wrote:
Deities provide a real mechanical advantage to a cleric. The choice of deity is signification to focus spell options and additional spells on the divine list. They do more for the cleric class than a familiar does for the witch.

I realize that this is not what you said, but I feel like I should mention this anyway. I don't think Witch class would be improved by having the choice of Patron theme limit the options of focus spells or Lesson feats available, or change one of the freely-chosen 1st level trained skills to be a fixed-option tied to Patron.

Witch does not need changed to have Patron choice be more similar to Cleric's choice of Deity. That would not be an improvement.

I would be ok with it myself if the Patrons were more like bloodlines if the focus spell progression was good.

I want good combat options without unnecessary additions like hex immunity if the focus cantrip isn't even that good. Making a target immune to a hex like Evil Eye for 1 minute makes it little better than the intimidation feat with an action tax to sustain it.

Make the witch hexes worth taking however they have to do it. Make them feel powerful in combat like a witch player will feel powerful for having made a witch.

That's what players care about.


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True, the current Witch really lacks that oomph and just feels punished all around to try and get better at its own thing.

I do feel optimism that’s what we’ll get in the Remaster.

“Dialing it ALL the way up” and “taking a number of the restraints off” as James Case said in the Remaster Panel. And spell related things covered nearly 40% of the panels times too!

It didn’t strike me as an “we can buff either hexes or familiars and too bad, it’s familiars!” It came off as more of the whole package: hexes, patron, familiar, feats, and spells.

Any other events coming up where we can mind trick them to spoil more info?


Tunu40 wrote:

To me, I don’t see why not though.

Why not have a class where something minor is their major feature?

Just an example: deities. They offer almost no mechanical bonuses (or even roleplay bonuses) for 20 of the classes. For something that can be minor and insignificant, we have 2 classes (Cleric and Champion) that have it as a major feature and can’t opt out of it. And there’s absolutely nothing wrong with that.

Why can’t there be a class that does the same with familiars?

Personally, I’m not feeling much alarm on the developers doubling-down on the Remaster Witch as the familiar (caster) class.

They can’t playtest the Remaster Witch without playtesting the familiar. There has to be a remaster on familiars.

On top of what everyone else mentioned here, you know what makes them more important than a familiar? Edicts and Anathemas.

Deities, while available to everyone, have a different relationship with Clerics and Champions, it's in these classes' very core.

Guess what everyone want out of Patrons?

Of course, Patrons should not have edicts and anathemas for their Witches. They should have contracts, agreements, bargains, debts, wishes and orders. Whether the patron is known or not.

The Witch could have as a core element something that no one else has access to, which is a Patron/Witch relationship with its own costs, benefits and dynamics. All things that can have a lot of mechanical impact, but also serve as great roleplay hooks.

Like deities can be.


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I've mentioned before, but the paizocon panels seemed to be pretty heavily signaling that hex cantrips would not nearly be as limited as they currently are. That they overly nerfed them on release and retuning all of them was a major goal.

Bearing in mind something that came up in...I want to say the shaman thread, one possibility for familiars is if they became psuedo-incarante spells. Just giving for free a single tangible combat benefit while being completely unable to be interacted with (aside from counterspelling and similar tactics), and of course losing access to normal familiar benefits while in this other form.

For instance, if instead of your familiar literally flanking an enemy, it works more or less like the Dark Companion Hexblade class feature from 3.5 player handbook II, providing flank without actual risk to the familiar. For a round or 3 at least.

THAT I could get excited over. If we don't see that on the witch, I do hope something along those lines turns up at some point.


Lightning Raven wrote:


The Witch could have as a core element something that no one else has access to, which is a Patron/Witch relationship with its own costs, benefits and dynamics. All things that can have a lot of mechanical impact, but also serve as great roleplay hooks.

Do you see this as working like contracts from Dark Archive/Legends, the Pactbinder from Dark Archive, or something else?


AnimatedPaper wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:


The Witch could have as a core element something that no one else has access to, which is a Patron/Witch relationship with its own costs, benefits and dynamics. All things that can have a lot of mechanical impact, but also serve as great roleplay hooks.
Do you see this as working like contracts from Dark Archive/Legends, the Pactbinder from Dark Archive, or something else?

I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people here in this forum to talk about Pacts being made available to all characters instead of just Thaumaturges precisely because it was the thing I wanted out of the Witches' patrons. I was lowkey pissed once I read the Pact's on the Thaumaturge playtest, because it was very similar to what I wanted out of Patrons.

The only thing I don't like is how a character that takes that kind of Archetype ends up with several contracts at once (if they want to progress on the archetype), which wouldn't work well with the Witch.

Personally, I think a mix of Pacts (in terms of benefits) and Contracts (the items you can get already in PF2e) would be the ideal rout. The "Lessons" idea we already have is very interesting. However, they do not feel like "Lessons" from your Patron at all because they are terribly generic and offer no roleplay hook whatsoever (and disregarding the fact they're pretty weak mechanically, of course).

In my mind, an interesting Patron dynamic would have: A contract, the benefits, the costs, potentially even having clear rules that the Witch must adhere to (the letter at least, as always).

At higher levels, it would open the opportunity for the Witch to engage with their Patron more directly, such as more power for more higher costs, tearing the contract and stealing the power and maybe even turning the tables altogether since PCs tend to get really powerful at the highest levels (perfect Capstone feat, IMO).

If a Cleric and a Champion's relationship with their Patrons/Deities is one of trust, love, admiration and they very much represent the spirit of the Deity's edicts, Witches would be the entire opposite.

The Witch and Patron would be two forces entering a bargain with both wanting to come out on top. Of course, even this dynamic is open to friendlier bargains or vague ones (for the players who don't want a well defined Patron). Basically, the Barbarian approach, you have a lot of interesting flavor of Witches to pursue, but you also have the "opt out" option (basically current Witch).


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Today's Paizo Live apparently talked a fair bit about the new Witch.


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
keftiu wrote:
Today's Paizo Live apparently talked a fair bit about the new Witch.

Where can I see Paizo Live? Is that YouTube, Twitch, Paizo.com, or what?


Ravingdork wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Today's Paizo Live apparently talked a fair bit about the new Witch.
Where can I see Paizo Live? Is that YouTube, Twitch, Paizo.com, or what?

Twitch


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Spamotron wrote:
Ravingdork wrote:
keftiu wrote:
Today's Paizo Live apparently talked a fair bit about the new Witch.
Where can I see Paizo Live? Is that YouTube, Twitch, Paizo.com, or what?
Twitch

Thanks! :D


Nothing new really (it’s the last 10 minutes starting at 1:59.40).

Rementions the unique Patron familiar abilities and how it triggers off spells or cast/sustain hexes. A new item for Witches, but no details. Lot more Patron interactions. No new significant info.

Logan mentioned Lessons, but this is all he said:
“The individuals lessons are kinda similar, but a little bit more space we can expand. Like, here is what this lesson is teaching you and why a patron might tell you this lesson. So you can kind of treat it from a little bit more of story angle rather than just a mechanical angle.”

Really no idea what that could mean. From a cynical angle, it could mean nothing more that flavor text. From a copium angle, could mean Lessons are features and not feats.

Guess waiting till GenCon (no July Paizo Live) for the next spoiler.


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I don't think we knew familiar abilities triggered off casting spells, as opposed to just casting or sustaining hexes. That's nice. The abilities will pretty much be available constantly.

We also know witches will get even more familiar abilities and at least one of them will be unique to your patron.

Liberty's Edge

Tunu40 wrote:

Nothing new really (it’s the last 10 minutes starting at 1:59.40).

Rementions the unique Patron familiar abilities and how it triggers off spells or cast/sustain hexes. A new item for Witches, but no details. Lot more Patron interactions. No new significant info.

Logan mentioned Lessons, but this is all he said:
“The individuals lessons are kinda similar, but a little bit more space we can expand. Like, here is what this lesson is teaching you and why a patron might tell you this lesson. So you can kind of treat it from a little bit more of story angle rather than just a mechanical angle.”

Really no idea what that could mean. From a cynical angle, it could mean nothing more that flavor text. From a copium angle, could mean Lessons are features and not feats.

Guess waiting till GenCon (no July Paizo Live) for the next spoiler.

The first point sounds like the Sorcerer's Blood Magic ability.

The last one is likely flavor text and guidelines/advice to give more context to the Lessons. We might have something similar with the new Wizard Schools.

Liberty's Edge

Lightning Raven wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:


The Witch could have as a core element something that no one else has access to, which is a Patron/Witch relationship with its own costs, benefits and dynamics. All things that can have a lot of mechanical impact, but also serve as great roleplay hooks.
Do you see this as working like contracts from Dark Archive/Legends, the Pactbinder from Dark Archive, or something else?

I'm pretty sure I was one of the first people here in this forum to talk about Pacts being made available to all characters instead of just Thaumaturges precisely because it was the thing I wanted out of the Witches' patrons. I was lowkey pissed once I read the Pact's on the Thaumaturge playtest, because it was very similar to what I wanted out of Patrons.

The only thing I don't like is how a character that takes that kind of Archetype ends up with several contracts at once (if they want to progress on the archetype), which wouldn't work well with the Witch.

Personally, I think a mix of Pacts (in terms of benefits) and Contracts (the items you can get already in PF2e) would be the ideal rout. The "Lessons" idea we already have is very interesting. However, they do not feel like "Lessons" from your Patron at all because they are terribly generic and offer no roleplay hook whatsoever (and disregarding the fact they're pretty weak mechanically, of course).

In my mind, an interesting Patron dynamic would have: A contract, the benefits, the costs, potentially even having clear rules that the Witch must adhere to (the letter at least, as always).

At higher levels, it would open the opportunity for the Witch to engage with their Patron more directly, such as more power for more higher costs, tearing the contract and stealing the power and maybe even turning the tables altogether since PCs tend to get really powerful at the highest levels (perfect Capstone feat, IMO).

If a Cleric and a Champion's relationship with their Patrons/Deities is one of trust, love,...

During the Witch playtest, there was an idea I liked in the threads, to have subclasses based on the kind of relation the Witch had with their Patron.

Liberty's Edge

AnimatedPaper wrote:

I've mentioned before, but the paizocon panels seemed to be pretty heavily signaling that hex cantrips would not nearly be as limited as they currently are. That they overly nerfed them on release and retuning all of them was a major goal.

Bearing in mind something that came up in...I want to say the shaman thread, one possibility for familiars is if they became psuedo-incarante spells. Just giving for free a single tangible combat benefit while being completely unable to be interacted with (aside from counterspelling and similar tactics), and of course losing access to normal familiar benefits while in this other form.

For instance, if instead of your familiar literally flanking an enemy, it works more or less like the Dark Companion Hexblade class feature from 3.5 player handbook II, providing flank without actual risk to the familiar. For a round or 3 at least.

THAT I could get excited over. If we don't see that on the witch, I do hope something along those lines turns up at some point.

I feel the Baba Yaga object familiar is a bit like this, with its ability to be either an object or a living familiar.

It also remind me somewhat of the Support Benefit of Animal Companions.


Yeah it sounds to me like they are adding more flavor text to lessons to justify why there is a lesson mechanic.

The patrons having more interactions sounds like it has certainly had potential, hope it goes well. But my cynical side is telling me that there wont be much, "more interactions" could mean "can get domains" and that would just be sad.

The familiar triggering from any spell cast is slightly more compelling because of cantrips. However, it remains to be seen on what the effects are. For example, Rune patron making the familiar flank still sounds bad because runes should be anout writing and magic, not flanking.


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The Raven Black wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:
AnimatedPaper wrote:
Lightning Raven wrote:


The Witch could have as a core element something that no one else has access to, which is a Patron/Witch relationship with its own costs, benefits and dynamics. All things that can have a lot of mechanical impact, but also serve as great roleplay hooks.
...During the Witch playtest, there was an idea I liked in the threads, to have subclasses based on the kind of relation the Witch had with their Patron.

That's definitely a good direction, in my opinion, at least better than we have right now. The focus on the patrons themselves would allow a more customized approach, but defining the relationship first and the flavor of patron later wouldn't be bad either.


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Temperans wrote:
For example, Rune patron making the familiar flank still sounds bad because runes should be anout writing and magic, not flanking.

James Case flavor for it is that when you cast/sustain a hex, the familiar has letters/formulas/numbers fly around it which distracts the enemies, which is why it counts as flanking.

And some examples they gave (from PaizoCon) for interactions with the patron were 3 feats: Patron’s Puppet where the patron moves the familiar for you as a free action, Patron’s Presence where the patron’s power suppresses magic in a region (using the familiar as the focus), and a feat where the patron reaches out of the familiar, grabs an enemy’s souls and crushes it.

And hexes are being leaned into as more of the patron’s power itself being called upon (which is why it’s still 1 hex per turn since the patron didn’t pick a mortal if they would have to do everything themselves).


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Some of this sounds potentially interesting. "Familiar abilities" are essentially just hexes by another name anyways, so in a very roundabout way we're getting 'more hexing' built into the class. Some of the powers sound interesting.

The more cynical part of me feels really underwhelmed by the patron magic benefit that's been described (which also seems suspiciously just similar to bloodline magic) and am bummed out by the decision to alter the flavor to strip more thematic agency away from the Witch and while some of the powers sound cool, without details there's a big risk of them being overhyped.

IDK, cautiously optimistic for now still but not sure.


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Familiar flanking? What? Let the familiar get into to range to be hit, make saves against gazes and auras, and get wiped out within a round? That doesn't sound like a good idea. That sounds like a designer who doesn't grasp how the game is played because you don't want your familiar within range of creatures. The witch plays the game at range, not in melee combat where the 6 hit point caster defenses get shredded.

This sounds like more, "Sounds cool, plays badly" design, which I absolutely despise.

They need to think about how a class plays and stop getting clever with classes that should not be in or close to melee, much less their familiar being a flanking partner within range of getting killed or maimed quickly.

I really wish the designers would think about how something plays during the game rather than flavor mechanics that are going to make a class seem unintelligently designed and powers that leave you shaking your head not wanting to touch them because they'll make you less good at your class or you're a bad class.

Test these design decisions in combat against other classes and see the operational issues across the levels.


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If the ability works like an incarnate spell and causes the familiar to be not harmable, and the effect can be used for any ally, not just the Witch specifically - then having a familiar ability that creates a flanking effect would be useful.

If the familiar is still able to be targeted and killed, and if the flanking only benefits the Witch - then no, there is no point.

Liberty's Edge

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Wait... do does the familiar just make the opponent flanked with an ability or... does it like... have to move into a space and then the ability treats it as if it had a weapon that could threaten the opponent if it is on the opposite side of a creature...

If the first, neat, so long as that flanking is determined universally, if the second... you might as well not print that option at all as it's a complete trap that will almost NEVER see actual play and if/when it does, will result in dire consequences more often than not. Letting opponents know your familiar is even a factor in combat, let alone drawing attention to it is a recipe for disaster.


Deriven Firelion wrote:

Familiar flanking? What? Let the familiar get into to range to be hit, make saves against gazes and auras, and get wiped out within a round? That doesn't sound like a good idea. That sounds like a designer who doesn't grasp how the game is played because you don't want your familiar within range of creatures. The witch plays the game at range, not in melee combat where the 6 hit point caster defenses get shredded.

This sounds like more, "Sounds cool, plays badly" design, which I absolutely despise.

They need to think about how a class plays and stop getting clever with classes that should not be in or close to melee, much less their familiar being a flanking partner within range of getting killed or maimed quickly.

I really wish the designers would think about how something plays during the game rather than flavor mechanics that are going to make a class seem unintelligently designed and powers that leave you shaking your head not wanting to touch them because they'll make you less good at your class or you're a bad class.

Test these design decisions in combat against other classes and see the operational issues across the levels.

"Grants flanking" and "takes an attack or two" is the better part of what summons do, so it seems more or less like a free weak daily summons to me. It's not giving you flanking, so I don't get where "witch has 6 hp" enters the picture. Yeah, the familiar will kick the bucket, so it's a once-a-day tactic, but it's going to mean one or two fewer hits against an ally. Seems like it pairs well with master abilities, 1/day abilities, and anything that you only need for part of the day- all the stuff you can cash out.

It's not gonna be my favorite familiar ability, but I don't really see "unintelligently designed". Although if Runes is still the only arcane patron, "arcane must sacrifice their familiar to get value from their unique feature" will be annoying.


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The description we've seen from Paizo is that the ability allows the familiar to provide flanking even though familiars normally can't flank.

It's not ranged flanking, or universal flanking, it's just that it overrides the default assumption that familiars never count for flanking.

Quote:
"Grants flanking" and "takes an attack or two" is the better part of what summons do, so it seems more or less like a free weak daily summons to me

regarding: free, remember that a Witch's refocus ability comes from communing with their familiar.

Granted, Remaster might make familiars significantly tankier or change how Witches refocus, but I feel like even if this ability had 0 risk associated with it entirely, it still's not exactly a cool or exciting ability and only situationally beneficial.

It's concerning, imo, if that's the vision for the class' future.


Squiggit wrote:

The description we've seen from Paizo is that the ability allows the familiar to provide flanking even though familiars normally can't flank.

It's not ranged flanking, or universal flanking, it's just that it overrides the default assumption that familiars never count for flanking.

Quote:
"Grants flanking" and "takes an attack or two" is the better part of what summons do, so it seems more or less like a free weak daily summons to me

regarding: free, remember that a Witch's refocus ability comes from communing with their familiar.

Granted, Remaster might make familiars significantly tankier or change how Witches refocus, but I feel like even if this ability had 0 risk associated with it entirely, it still's not exactly a cool or exciting ability and only situationally beneficial.

It's concerning, imo, if that's the vision for the class' future.

Oh, right! I completely forgot that refocusing is tied to the familiar. That definitely changes my view of the ability.

Other than the risk, it just feels like Sorcerer's Blood Magic abilities. I'm presuming they take up a similarly negligible slice of the remastered power budget.

Liberty's Edge

If they change Phase familiar so that it actually takes your familiar out of the encounter until the start of your next turn, the flanking ability might be worthwhile IMO. Heck, even your familiar disappearing until the end of your next turn would be alright by me.


The Raven Black wrote:
If they change Phase familiar so that it actually takes your familiar out of the encounter until the start of your next turn, the flanking ability might be worthwhile IMO. Heck, even your familiar disappearing until the end of your next turn would be alright by me.

not for a focus point, no.

if they made it into a hex cantrip, then sure.

not necessary to completly remove it from the encounter either imo, just make the resistance all to apply for a full round instead of only that single attack.


That Phase Familiar spell isn't even acknowledged as existing by the player that plays witches as he would never dream of using a focus point on a garbage spell like that. It should be a free ability that only requires a reaction, so you only give up a reaction to use it. It is not at all a focus point worthy spell.


it really isn't that much different from other defensive reactions that already exist imo:

it starts at 2 points higher DR and is ranged, scales the same but can only be applied to the familiar instead of any friendly ally, and has 0 riders on it unlike the other similar reactions.

it has no reason to cost a focus point.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

If I wanted a pet that takes the field in combat, I would get an animal companion or a summon. Familiars are friendly NPCs, often cute, that shouldn't ever get directly attacked. Even if they revive the next day, I would feel like a huge failure in character if I let my weak, dependent ally suffer needlessly.

Putting combat mechanics on it is like getting a class feature that lets you put a sword in the hands of the orphan kid you just saved. GM is a jerk for targetting them, and the player is a jerk for putting them in the position to be targeted.

At least, that's how it feels to me.

Might be okay if they make familiars literally unkillable/untargetable.


What would be an example of a familiar in a book or movie?

I don't know many casters or witches that have familiars. I've seen a few having black cats or wizards having some homunculus, but where did the witch having a familiar come from? What is the literary or media source? Even in most modern witch stories, the familiar is not common as near as I can tell.


Eh, a lot of witches folklore have them with black cats, talking crows, snakes, and etc as partners.


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European folklore asserted that witches and folk healers were often accompanied by magical spirits that took the form of pet cats or dogs or rats or birds (etc).


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Witches having familiars I believe came from folklore around witches and the I'd say the archetypical witch is usually associated with having an animal companion/familiar usually a cat.

For like characters/media I can think of a few Kiki's delivery service, Sabrina the teenage witch, Harry Potter and Gargamel from the Smurf.


Pieces-Kai wrote:

Witches having familiars I believe came from folklore around witches and the I'd say the archetypical witch is usually associated with having an animal companion/familiar usually a cat.

For like characters/media I can think of a few Kiki's delivery service, Sabrina the teenage witch, Harry Potter and Gargamel from the Smurf.

We can even say John Wick, who's Baba Yaga and had his Familiar Puppy killed by mobsters.


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I think people are overly worried about having their familiar get killed. I've found the witch focus spells to not reaaaally be all that powerful, and have found more benefits from sending my familiar out to scout. I think if I had this ability today I would totally send my familiar into melee. If the enemy is wasting actions on it instead of the allies who actually deal damage, that's fine. I can't imagine that happening very often because it's a bad use of actions to strike the glowing cat instead of the barbarian who is actively murdering you.

Now, hopefully hexes become strong enough to not want to risk losing them, but hopefully that's also accompanied by one of the many options to increase the longevity of the familiar.


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Deriven Firelion wrote:

What would be an example of a familiar in a book or movie?

I don't know many casters or witches that have familiars. I've seen a few having black cats or wizards having some homunculus, but where did the witch having a familiar come from? What is the literary or media source? Even in most modern witch stories, the familiar is not common as near as I can tell.

"Bell, Book, and Candle", "Sabrina the Teenage Witch", and "Kiki's Delivery Service" all come to mind for more recent sources. Folklore about witches is where familiars actually come from, so it's not surprising that Witch would be a class that focuses on them.

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