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I’ll keep speaking up about this so Paizo doesn’t forget.

Classes: Oracle - Battle
Rule: Focus Spell - Weapon Trance
Issue to be Errata’d: Unfortunately, the spell is unfulfilling for many players, especially as a Core class. While there are ways to make it work, there are too many hoops to jump through that only experienced/advanced players would be able to figure out (which still isn’t satisfying for more experienced players). That shouldn’t be expected at lvl. 1. And if players are rushing to bypass it, then it isn’t an option worth having in the game.

Errata Recommendation #1: Change Duration from ”Sustained up to 1 minute” —> “1 minute”.
Reason: Straightforward with what it does. Trims 15 characters. Most economical option.

Errata Recommendation #2: Change text from “You automatically Sustain this spell as a free action the first time you hit with a weapon Strike each round.” —> “You automatically Sustain this spell as a free action the first time you strike with a weapon Strike each round.”
Reason: Simple edit, but does add 3 more characters. I understand why it uses that language (Warrior Bard), but the context is very different. No resources and no risk of rendering your weapon worthless if you miss a sustain. This isn’t the same context for the Battle Oracle who needs to spend a focus point.

I personally wouldn’t mind the “hit” requirement if there were other benefits to the spell (such as allowing you to Step, Stride, cast Shield, or Raise a shield when you spend action to Sustain) or adding temp HP…anything non-damage related to ensure this isn’t a spell where it’s better off poached by a martial. And I don’t think copying Animist’s Embodiment of Battle (a non-poachable spell) is a good idea either. But I do feel like simpler is better in a situation like this. It can be a bit complex enough trying to be a gish, so letting the tools be straight-forward sounds like a better and balanced direction.

Just my few 2 cents to keep Paizo aware of the issues some of us care about.

(Definitely want to get to the Ancestor’s Mystery next.)

Wishful thinking on my part: but showing the Guardian with various pieces of armor slapped on him partially makes me hope there’s some sort of “piecemeal armor” feature the Guardian gets where they sorta build their armor and tweak it as combat comes up. I actually have a suggestion for that in the survey/feedback as the PT Guardian (and PF2e’s armor system as well whole) isn’t exactly engaging. This would open up some options for Guardians being functional when even wearing Unarmored/Light Armor stuff (it’s much harder to swap armors than it is to swap weapons).

On the other hand, it might just be concept art. It’s just that the timing makes a lot of sense to have the Guardian be a brand new ancestry (Jotunborn) and use that to also showcase something about a new class.

I don’t know, I would be thrilled if I see some of my suggestions in the Guardian class (it’s the only martial I’ve felt excited about).

She actually comes off as a high level Seneschal Witch (her younger self is more like a Distant Grasp Psychic, but even an Imperial Sorcerer would make sense, due to her non-Oz heritage).

Her familiar is the repository for her spells, which would be the Grimmerie (the spells she prepares are the ones it shows to her). It’ll be an Object Familiar (flavored as a book) that she can carry around and stash in her bag.

Mandatory is her Cackle, Cauldron, and Witch’s Broom at lvl. 14 for her flying.

Outside of that, she has ♬unlimited♬ capabilities because she can access the Grimmerie (which the Arcane spell list fits really well).

Alternatively, you could do a Spell Substitution Wizard with her Arcane Bond being her Spell Book (Grimmerie) and the ability to find whatever spell she needs is searching through her book (Spell Substitution).

Combat was never the main focus of the story, as Wicked is also a postmodern commentary of issues in the early 2000s (animal rights, government distrust, and racial conflicts) which the musical focuses a bit less on for the sake of entertainment (and hard to do fantastical special effects on the stage). So, she’s focused on trying to socialize with people and not harm them, but to only have her actions be misconstrued. So it’s more scant on what her actual combat abilities are.

As a Distant Grasp Psychic, she should be focusing on Telekinetic Projectile and then Unleashing Psyche (losing control of her emotions) for powerful telekinesis. At lvl. 16, she gains Constant Levitation which is definitive of her iconic power, which is flight.

But as the Wicked Witch of the West inspired a lot of other modern Witch tropes, so the skies the limit (no pun intended here).

Edit: I forgot. Part of the story of her evil magic powers are propaganda. She’s overall pretty tame. But since she did make good friends with a lot of animals, Summon Animal would fit as her main gig. Wilding Steward fits with her theme, her hex (try to be diplomatic and not be harmed), while also granting her Summon Animal.

On both Reddit/this forum/YouTube, I’ve never seen a “crusade against damage”. (There’s literally a recent thread here on why Animist blasting is amazing.)

If anything, the only “anti-damage” advice (which is hardly that) is just arguing NOT to use 3rd action for another Strike (at -10 MAP) and rather use it for something else. Which IS smart and IS meant to focus on improving your damage (because a downed PC does no damage).

There’s direct damage and indirect damage, and there are LOT’S of a ways to do indirect damage. Even Mark (Seifter) and Linda on Arcane Mark have gone into this topic on game design and what makes better game design. PF2e is setup so that putting some effort into teamwork with a single action can offer more damage than lazily Striking another time rather than setting up a Flank (which…would’ve helped you too).

But most combat encounters cannot end without doing damage. So, arguing the community is against damage…is the weirdest argument I’ve heard.

I do. I wasn’t using it before because it was “banned”.

But it’s still a long range Reflex save which is nice.

Whoa, thanks folks for reading and engaging to long-winded rambling. That means a lot!

Overall, great points. It’s totally fair if you didn’t build around Sure Strike. I think it’s a good thing that the Oracle can allow such flexibility and diversity of styles, we specially due to being a Spontaneous caster. It IS a less optimal (and more difficult) way to play and the chassis does have tension that doesn’t add too much incentive).

Sure Strike absolutely did prop up my STR/DEX style support melee-caster (which I absolutely loved). But I’ve pivoted to a Dual Weapon Warrior build (I’ll explain it more below):

I think maybe because a Weapon BO isn’t played often (or at all?), I’ll just share how I did mine and why it’s enjoyable.

I’ve tried Warpriest Cleric and Witness Animist, but I found that there’s a unique feeling the Weapon BO fits: fluidity.

With Warpriest Cleric, I had the spells I selected and I relied on a very powerful, but predictable use of fonts. Witness Animist is fun and powerful in melee, but the slot limitation felt rough. Battle Oracle has a nice feeling of general flexibility and fluidity in swapping between different tactics due to being 4-slot, spontaneous, and having Cursebound on top of focus points.

Which, Sure Strike helped with that using any melee weapon, but I’ve found a Dual Weapon Warrior works best for a Weapon BO now. I’m using a Returning Meteor Shield and (for now) using Blazing Armory for either a Trident/Hatchet. Reason, the Dual Thrower feat lets me Double Slice at range and it’s been more affordable to use Blazing Armory than deck out two weapon.

But it’s really nailed the fluidity: going with a Sarangay, I can nail the +3 STR/DEX/CHA. I can strike at near range with a good enough chance to land a hit and maintain Weapon Trance. I can cast spells if the range is too far (such as using Harm/IRT). I can spontaneously heal if needed. I tried both FA and non-FA, and FA definitely helps in getting Nudge the Scales and a second focus point. Sarangay worked out because it comes with an unarmed attack in case luck goes very badly and Weapon Trance isn’t tenable. (I’m looking forward to using Blazing Armory for grabbing a d12 whenever I need it to use with Weapon Storm at lvl: 7+).

An alternate version I’ve come up with, but haven’t tried out is going Weapon Proficiency, 2H weapon, and going for Nudge the Scales and Blessed One (Lay on Hands) for more frontline presence healing.

Overall, I mostly wanted to share how this player is doing Battle Oracle (with Weapons) just so there’s some feedback for the devs. I figured it’s important to advocate for what you find enjoyable in PF2e. I’m sure there might be others that also had fun with this, but I haven’t seen those voices (and they’re usually suppressed on the other social media).

I was hoping maybe we could get some communication from the devs (via Maya) about their thoughts for RM Battle Oracle, but I think maybe they’re keeping their cards close until Spring 2024 Errata. Or maybe it’s no longer intended playstyle and maybe they just don’t think it’s worth the time.

Now that the dust has settled a bit following the Fall 2024 Errata (which is mostly, pretty good), I wanted to bring up the RM Battle Oracle as it suffered collateral damage in the Sure Strike errata. Considering the markedly improved forum activity (thanks to Maya!), I feel like it’s possible to have some solid discussion that’ll be helpful to both players and the dev team.

I do ask that we limit conversation to the REMASTERED Battle Oracle and try not to derail the conversation with Legacy Battle nostalgia or “Weapon Trance/Remaster BO sux, just play sorcerer/cleric/animist!” We’ve heard these complaints ad nauseum, and they’ve never added anything of value to the conversation other than trying to shut it down. If you feel the need to rag on the Battle Oracle, please make your own thread. Thanks!

The RM Battle Mystery seemed pretty clear on what Paizo intended:

•It works as a DEX/CHA or even a STR/DEX subclass (STR/DEX/CHA with the variety of 3 boost CHA ancestries).
•Weapon Trance was meant to encourage that “forced Strike”, but with a strategic opt-in. (Paizo clearly WANTED this Mystery there for those who want to be a “Gish Oracle”.)
•Sure Strike synergizes with Weapon Trance, to make those Strikes land. You give up an action and a spell slot, but you have a high chance to do something impactful while also “regaining” that action normally lost to sustain.
•Sure Strike synergizes with Bespell Strikes as it is one-action and highly increases Oracle’s accuracy to make Bespell Strikes matter.
•Sure Strike synergizes with Telekinetic Maneuver as it doesn’t work with regular Athletic skill checks, but does work the TK Maneuver being an Attack roll.
•Sure Strike also worked with spell attacks, like Needle Dart/Divine Lance so that the Oracle could still be impactful against distant enemies without swapping to a non-upgraded weapon.
•Weapon Storm comes online when your CHA catches up (in a STR/DEX build).
•Oracular’s Warning and Battlefield Persistence helped with lower initiative and countering the cursed saves.

I think you can see the problem: RM Battle Oracle’s functionality and identity is founded upon the 4-slot spontaneous Divine casting Battle Oracle using Sure Strike as much as possible. This isn’t really possible anymore and also severely damaged the uniqueness and mechanical identity.

I think this presents an opportunity to solve the main problem with Battle Oracle: Weapon Trance. Weapon Trance “works” because we have a way to hedge our turn in our favor while using the benefits the class affords. This doesn’t work out well now. And it’s hard to improve Weapon Trance as it is a poachable focus spell (and we saw the uproar over Exemplar Dedication granting easy free damage for martials). Some ideas:

•Make Weapon Trance sustain on ATTEMPTING a Strike.
•Make Weapon Trance a Free action when first cast.
•When you sustain Weapon Trance, you can Stride, Step, or Raise a shield as a free action.
•Or, when you sustain Weapon Trance, you gain a +1 circ to AC.
•When you cast Weapon Trance, you can shift a Simple weapon into a Martial weapon, as you would a shifting weapon. When you lose Weapon Trance, you shift the weapon back to its original Simple form.

Anything to make it feel like an incentive ti use Weapon Trance and not a punishment.

My big question for the dev team (If Maya might be able to see this):

•What IS the dev team’s vision for this subclass? It was clear before (Sure Strikes for Weapon Trance, spell attack cantrips, Bespell Strikes, and TK Maneuver), but unfortunately, it got gutted in the recent Errata.

•Is the current Weapon Trance still satisfactory design to the devs, or meeting their intentions? As of now, picking any other Oracle can be a better “Battle” Oracle (such as Bone Oracle grabbing Object Memory).

Meanwhile, if anyone wants to share on their experiences of weal and woe as an RM Battle Oracle, I’m sure that’ll be valuable! Overall, I find the subclass is fine in the 12+ range where many feats can resolve a lot of issues. I actually had to pivot into a new build that uses Dual Weapon Warrior as Double Slice is functionally the same as Sure Strike in accuracy (two actions, roll twice). But I don’t think it’s good if you need an archetype to fix a subclass.

And again. Thank you Maya for all the hard work you do. I’m 100% sure you’re really busy too. I hope this articulates some concerns and needs of dev communication.

Congratulations!!!

It’s absolutely been a long road going through the Remaster Project, but Paizo. You did it. I hope you guys get some good relaxing time with family and friends over the holidays.

If I can celebrate one thing: thank you for changing Wild Witch’s Armament a Iron Teeth! It went from a .0025% (~0.0%) of ever doing anything to approximately 2-3% chance!

Still…not great for a lvl. 6 feat, but the design idea of using spell DC for a caster’s weapon/unarmed crit is definitely much better design!

And I’m glad we finally got the *official* ruling on Fey Gifts. I thought it was pretty clear based on the Remaster that it was going to be Illusion/Mental, so that’s great to hear! I also really like the Meld into Eidolon ease and possibility of using the eidolon for movement needs.

Cheers!

Looks like they reverted the FAQ page coz it broke trying to upload everything.

Website went down faster than a boss using Stand when surrounded by 4 Fighters with pre-nerfed Gnome Flickmaces!

Can we agree to vote Maya as the true Leshy Iconic? Love her choice of forum avatar.

Welcome!

Object Familiar from Baba Yaga has changed. It’s been removed from Baba Yaga and is instead a “familiar archetype ruleset”.

1) Accessible to all Witches.
2) Is an alternate to the standard “Animal” Familiar:
a. Object Familiar is now a Construct (must take Construct ability, does not require Tough).
b. It loses its movement speed (set to 0).
c. Pet/Familiar/Master abilities that grant movement can only be taken if it has a speed.
d. New Animated familiar ability grants a a [land] Speed. Can only be taken by an object familiar.

So, it’s nice if a Witch doesn’t want to worry about their familiar that much. It’s like a superior Absorb Familiar that still lets your familiar act (just needs to be carried around by you or someone else). Most notably, the rule reemphasizes that it’s still a familiar - so no more of this object ambiguity or “I use my familiar as a sword”. It just has a shape of an item (no item stats) and is a Construct creature.

I know there are some folks that completely despise the Witch’s reliance on familiar and the they hate the PF2e version of the thematic patrons. So a Seneschal Witch with an Object Familiar is patronless and familiarless for those few who want to play a non-Arcane “Wizard”.

I think it’s cool flavor-wise if you want a Construct familiar, but wanted more familiar/master abilities. But if you want it to be mobile and doing stuff, you’re better off going with Tough+Construct animal familiar instead of Construct+Animated object familiar.

I actually like the new Battle Oracle’s new fantasy. If I wanted a Divine magical knight, Champion and Warpriest exist.

Since PF2e came out, I wanted to make a “premonition/divination gladiator” (a gladiator who’s skills came from premonitions and seeing the future). There just weren’t any good classes that fit that. Legacy Oracle included. I tried Bard (pre-Warrior), Champion, and Diviner Wizard. Closest I got was Monk with Oatia Skysage.

Remastered Battle Oracle surprisingly fits the fantasy perfectly.

Even if it’s niche and unpopular, I’m super happy for it. Which, I’m sure is a sentiment Legacy Oracle lovers can understand.

I really hope they make a class archetype to help those who prefer the Legacy Oracle though.

The Animist’s Medium Practice flavor text. It’s completely opposite of what the Medium Practice is supposed to be.

They somehow rehashed the Channeler’s text, but it was the Liturgist that replaced the Channeler.

Does the Vindicator archetype give any Divine cantrips or spell slot casting?

A bit boring. Phoebe Bane showcased it.

Dedication: Bond to 1 apparition and gain its skills. These skills auto increase at 8/16. Gain 2 cantrips picked from the divine list or your apparition. Cast with WIS, yadda yadda. Can spend 1 day of downtime to sever the bond and bond with a new apparition.

Basic/Advanced Animist feats.

Basic/Expert/Master Spells: Prepared slots, can choose Divine spells you know or apparition spells.

Animist “Breadth”: Gain extra spell slots like any breadth feat, but can only be apparition spells.

You can’t gain the vessel spells from the Animist. (At least, they didn’t see it).

I tried asking in the WoI AMA, but might’ve gotten buried…

Any new companions/familiar abilities/specific familiars in WoI?

Was wondering if there’s something new that the Shaman Animist would be interested in (kind of like how RoE introduced new specific familiars and familiar ability alongside Kineticist’s Elemental Familiar, maybe something similar with Animists and Spirit Familiar). Like making your familiar a Celestial/Fiend or something?

Any new companion content: animal companion, familiar, specific familiar stuff?

I guess gishing on a Animist isn’t gonna be great.

Witness is obviously the best, but you’re always down 1 action due to sustaining. Can you still use EoB to be proficient in Advanced weapons? If so, I think it’s better than Oracle’s Weapon Trance. If may not have the auto-sustain, but it has better accuracy and reactive strike. But at least the Animist has Medium armor, so they’re not trying for a Finesse playstyle.

Stalker doesn’t come online until lvl. 3 anyway (use Gouging Claw until then?).

Both of these seem like only a lvl. 9 Liturgist would really want to gish. You’re Essentially Slowed 1 until you get that sustaining dance.

Gonna have to ponder this.

Thanks everyone!

I’m guessing thanks to the loosening on ikon selections, an Unarmored Exemplar would pretty much grab Mirrored Aegis (Weapon), Eye-Catching Spot (Body), and Scar of the Survivor (Body)?

Though…beyond being naked in a loincloth on the field…I don’t really see a reason for enemies to target you. You have to place your Spark into defensive ikons to not die, so not contributing to ending the fight that well.

Unarmored exemplar is probably a bad idea (from 1-9 if you’re DEX-based), but maybe that’s for the better, lol.

Not sure if I was crazy, but I thought there was a new weapon ikon for shields? Or is the old Palisade Bangles (Worn) redone?

Are its apparition spells good at least?

I can see it being a toss out apparition for a Shaman (or any Animist that grabs Spirit Familiar feat).

That is actually an improvement.

A “Buckler Raise Shield”, Tailwind, Sustain, and Stride in one action is pretty nice.

Have Stalker as an attuned apparition for Gouging Claw. Definitely a nice improvement for Vanguard (I playtested Steward, Vanguard, and Witness and during the playtest I just couldn’t justify ever using Vanguard’s vessel spell).

As for feats, they aren't limited by practice. Some have restrictions based on Apparition choice, but none that I've seen that restrict based on Practice.

So, how does Animist changing primary spirit work? In the playtest, the Animist could spend 10 min to change their primary attuned spirit. Can the Medium still do that? What happens to a Shaman’s familiar if they change their primary attuned spirit?

If Circle of Spirits is a feat and not a unique Liturgist power, what happens if a Medium/Shaman picks up the feat?

I’m certain the answers are obvious for anyone with the book, but it’s definitely gotten my brain thinking about the class, lol.

Oh crikey! Aeonbound? Aphorites are back?!?

Familiars aren’t bad for caster/non-combat utility, so you’re right, it’s still a great option for all of those benefits. thanks for clearing up Shaman for me!

Though, is there really no salvation for the Seer? It has to have a good feat somewhere, right? (Right…?)

Again, thank you for indulging us on this! Fantastic stuff.

The downside though, is your primary apparition IS the familiar, so if it dies, you lose a lot until you get it back the next day.

There’s nothing in Shaman practice that actually requires/incentivizes your familiar to be in combat?

Coz if not: Absorb Familiar (and Familiar Satchel) exists! Checkmate Paizo!

Thanks for sharing!

Liturgist looks like it’s the old Channeler, but more identifiable. I think it’s definitely the strongest for flexible vessel spells.

Medium looks strong too if you know what 2 vessel spells you want to use at all times.

Seer looks like the old Sage, so I don’t think it looks great.

Shaman sounds interesting, but it doesn’t seem any more interesting than if you just grab Familiar Master.

I’m guessing the actual feats will be the most important part, but Liturgist/Medium look like the winners (and what we really wanted from Channeler and Sage). Seer and Shaman look really boring. A bit relieved though. Was worried that the Shaman might outclass the Witch, but the Witch seems to retain its position as the ultimate familiar caster.

Maybe there are some new specific familiars? (And how does Shaman even work with specific familiars?)

Again, thanks for sharing!

Just curious, what are all the practices for the Animist?

Also, what does the Seer do? I’m assuming Channeler made it back in, Medium was spoiled, and I saw your post about Shaman (I think that might be my new Witch replacement). Sage got cut for the new Shaman subclass?

Thanks!

The story was great! I think Nahoa means defiant in Hawaiian, so super fitting.

I wonder if James read “Where the Waters Turn Black” by Benedict Patrick. Got some similar vibes on it, such as Nahoa’s divine sparking (gaining mana). Edit: Even the Exemplar chassis gives me some of that vibe, having the iconic be Polynesian-inspired is so perfect!

I have a big love for the Pacific and really hope we get a Lost Omens: Okaiyo one day. (And hopefully, it’s a bit more updated/kind towards the Rapa Nui).

Maybe that girdle is PF2's equivalent of the mail bikini? Only time will tell.

They mentioned that there’s going to be a new light armor, Rattan Armor, to represent that “scant” armoring you’re referring to. I think they said it might be +1(+4 DEX).

Though, I’m looking forward to trying a “Loincloth” (Unarmored) 2H Exemplar based on 2 of the initial eikons.

Man…it would be fun if we got some more magically focused combat Specific Familiars or familiar archetype in Sarkoris…

Taking from Mark Seifter’s comments on how his familiar worked, it seems outside of Encounter mode it acts pretty much like another PC.

It can go talk to strangers on its own, try to figure things out, then report back to the party.

So, I think the idea that their strict Minion rules are for Encounters, but free to do whatever during Exploration/Downtime, seems to be the intent of dev team.

In the end, it seems to be GM/Player agreement.

Between this, the animist, and the witchwarper preview we got, I'm really liking the look of newer casters. Fun mixes of class mechanics, spell slots, and spell slots tying into class mechanics

I really think this is the right design direction.

You can’t do much about the design philosophy of spells in PF2e. It’s a direction the designers and a lot of players like in comparison to PF1e or 5e.

Bolstering their class abilities as their main gimmick with spell slots as their “rounding out” seems like the happy medium between “Vancian Caster” and “Impulse Casters”..

It’s a reason Bard is such a top notch caster, why the Psychic has a more preferred design, and why the Remastered Witch was a solid direction.

I’m thinking Paizo has really found their stride and I’m all for it!

I did some looking around and it seems Luting is a type of South Chinese mythological fish-person?

Intriguing that they would be separate from Athamaru which seem to match the drawings.

Guessing it’s an opening for a variation to Athamaru, kinda like Goblin/Hobgoblin and Minotaur/Sarangay.

I was actually thinking a similar thing too! Porcupining (Thorns/Retribution/etc..) makes sense especially if we think about CRPGs.

However, as I was messing with the idea, I ran into a design issue due to this being a TTRPG: Porcupining is meant to be a deterrent from attacking someone and that's opposite of what the Guardian's role.

Experiences:

Witch's Needle of Vengeance - Punishing others for attacking someone is meant to deter them from doing so. Taking damage is a pretty big incentive to not continue.

Nature Domain's Vibrant Thorns - Similar case, damaging those who attack you should deter them from attacking you. Personally, I find it more of a Cloistered Cleric's defensive ability (1A cast, lasts the entire fight, and you can use your Heal Font to amplify it). A Warpriest could get some use out of it too for punishing folks going after the healer. Champion, it does have tension, but the Champion's reaction + Lay on Hands just makes it frustrating for enemies to not target the Champion.

With the current kit of Playtest Guardian, it's already too good at deterring attacks against it (best AC, use of Shield/Shield Block, innate resistances). Even Taunt isn't a strong enough incentive to attack the Guardian. Having the porcupine damage makes the Guardian less valuable of a target.

Conclusion: HOWEVER, attaching it to Intercept Strike DOES seem like a good idea. If we can make enemies NOT want to attack our allies because Intercept Strike is just too dangerous would be nice! (I also think Bodyguard should be a baseline feature for ALL Intercept type abilities).

Between attacking a heavily armored person with their shield-raised, or trying to attack the "fragile" Wizard...while knowing that the heavily armored person is just going to slam into place, hurt me, and also make it a nuisance to hurt that Wizard, I'd rather just contend with the Guardian instead.

Also, the Sentinel archetype has some unique feats which is baked into the Guardian class features (meaning, likely not available to the Guardian archetype).

I can imagine Guardian archetype being something like:

Dedication (2)
+Trained Athletics (or another skill).
+Trained Guardian DC (STR).
+Trained Medium/Heavy Armor proficiency.

Guardian Resiliency (4) - Add +3HP per archetype feat.

Basic Guardian Feats (4): Pick a lvl. 1/2 Guardian feat.

Taunter (4): Gain Taunt.

Advanced Guardian Feats (6): Pick a Guardian feat half or less your level.

Intercept Strike (6): Gain Intercept Strike.

Guardian Armor Expert (14): Expert in Medium/Heavy armor.

Sentinel still has the Armor Specialization (6) and Steel Skin (4) feats, which are the Guardian’s lvl. 1 class feature Guardian’s Armor.

I wonder how Witches would be able to fare now, especially due to the Remaster/Rage of Elements/Howl of the Wild and Spirit Guide specific familiar.

Howl of the Wild introducing the Hidebound spell really ups things in terms of a team of Witches being able to protect each other. It scales better than a Cosmos Oracle’s physical resistance (though, just be smart with spell slot preparation as there’s less need for your highest rank spell slot to use Hidebound when Rank-2 is the same effect). There’s just a good assortment of reaction spells for Primal/(Arcane) and reaction feats (Portents and Coven).

The various patrons are also quite powerful and some have very specific roles, which is normally not useful in a well-rounded party, but I think would shine here.

Edit: Familiar Sage could potentially be a game-changer here too depending how good those feats are.

I know not a lot of folks were enthused by it…

But I’m really happy Merfolk are finally added into the game (with all the various support to play it).

Been wanting to play one in PF2e ever since I first tried out PF1e, so…yay!

Maybe as a heritage or lineage, they can have a Sea Lion option.

Sea Lions can move surprisingly fast on land (probably faster than an un-athletic human).

I always imagined (since PF1e) for a Strongfin Merfolk where it mixes the Climher Perch and Sea Lion together for a Merfolk with extremely strong “pectoral fins” that operate close enough to short legs. Closest I can get to that is a Nephilim Merfolk with Nimble Hooves.

The Strongtail feat’s mention of leaping to move around, I think is referring to the Mudskipper and how it folds it’s tail to jump on land.

There are fantastical ways to make Merfolk more land friendly, but honestly, I can see folks complaining how that’s “not fish like”. */shrug*

Though, if your doing recall knowledge, you should learn about the enemies attacks, not their defense. Knowing a dragon's breath is Reflex instead of Fortitude would (or should) be more useful.

Holy crap! I love that idea!

I would even go to say…maybe if there is a mental Guardian, make it a WIS guardian that relies on Perception to really hone in on what kind of attacks that enemy can make.

I thought Werebat would’ve dealt Wood trait bludgeoning damage.

Centaur Witch with a Centaur (Beast Eidolon) and a Centaur familiar (Master’s Form).

At least the legacy version of centaurs in the bestiary give them the “Beast” trait. *shrug*

That is the gist of it. Reaction hex. if ally moves while within 15 feet of you, familiar lands on them and uses their wings as cover until your next turn.

Does the familiar also need to be close-by, or can it falcon dive like…from another plane of existence, lol.

Jokes aside, that’s a super beautiful hex (even if it might not be good coz…using a reaction to protect someone means no reaction for your familiar). Maybe if we get could an option for a Celestial familiar in the future, this would be a super cool roleplay moment.

Really hope we get more thematic utility/non-offensive familiar combat stuff like this in the future.

Thank your for spoiling us!

I heard about new Witch Lessons, but the Lesson of the Flock sounded confusing.

Familiar ability and a reaction focus hex that lets your familiar grant Cover?

It seemed like it’s meant to mix with Whisper on Wings so you can trigger the familiar ability, position them; and grant Cover?

Personally, I don’t think it’s the right direction.

I think instead, having a various multitude of “taunt”-traited actions could be interesting. Could have something “Unstable” similar to limit more powerful taunts or just have them as 1min cooldowns.

So it’s not just one vague taunt, but rather a variety of methods a Guardian can debuff and hamper enemies. And would be a lot more dynamic.

It’s why I’m leaning towards Taunt being a variety of debuffs the Guardián can place on an enemy, in exchange for the +2 attack vs. the Guardian.

So the Guardian is more than just a tank (which is done via Intercepts and Maneuvers) but an aggravator via debuffs that are separate from MAP and (more often) Will-based (unlike solely relying on Athletics).

I think that is the line of following they need to do for taunts.

Either you have one Taunt that can be customized via feats/actions that help with action compression.

Or you have the [Taunt] trait and multiple actions that have that trait and can also be “meta-magic” by feats.

Like Shielding Taunt: You Raise your Shield and perform a 1A ability with the Taunt trait.

A consolation I think to get around stuff:

Add this “Armorer’s Improvisation”.

“The Guardian can reinforce less ideal armor to suit their needs (and tastes) with various pieces and materials. Such as tying metal plates, extra folded heavy cloth, or fur linings - though the armor becomes heavier to become sturdier.

During a Guardian’s daily preparation, you can select an Unarmored/Light armor equipment and increase its AC by 2, reduce the DEX cap by 2, increase STR requirement by 2 (etc., etc..). The altered armor is considered Medium armor.

Additionally, the Guardian’s ability to make the most out of any armor, grants them even armor specialization when using Cloth. While wearing Cloth, the Guardian’s fluid flow grants +1 item bonus to Reflex and +1 per armor fundamental rune.”

Essentially, a Guardian can “Armored Skirt” Unarmored/Light armor. Still keeps the Guardian using Medium/Heavy armor proficiency, but allows a uniquely Guardian customization to expand their options in a way no other class can.

Test Philosophy: I focused specifically on Lvl. 1 Guardian as I know it’s the entry for many players wanting to try the class. Their first impression will be their greatest impression and ensuring the core gameplay feels tight before they build with feats is important.

Week 1 Thoughts:

Initial Reactions: Oh, that’s cool, but Commander seems more interesting with Tactics. Intercept Strike sounds fantastic. Taunt sounds interesting. The focus on defenses, but specifically Medium/Heavy Armor and Sword/Board focus also felt a but disappointing. Being able to be an Unarmored/Light Armored 2H “stand your ground and take a beating for others” remains elusive. The Monk thematically is a martial artist with DBZ magic, which isn’t the same theme. But…I guess **another** restricted-to-armor knight is exactly what’s wanted?

Initial Math-Theorizing: The class is very confusing in terms of Taunt and Armor Proficiency progression tied to the goal of the Playtest(PT)-Guardian. The Armor proficiency progression outpaces the incentive to attack the PT-Guardian meaning casters are ALWAYS a better target over the Heavy Armor/Shield Raised Guardian. The Armor Proficiency is also meaningless when focusing on Intercept Strike as it bypasses the Guardian’s main defensive benefit. It also means a players will need to rely on Chain armor and Mitigate Harm Threat Technique - which makes the PT-Guardian just a heavily restrictive, unimaginative, and boring class. The math of AC vs. Taunt means that Taunting is just not worth it unless I’m certain it’s a Crit Success. And Raising my Shield mathematically dooms the caster.

Actual Encounter #1: A severe encounter of a Lv. 1 Shield/Mitigate Harm Guardian + a Starless Shadow Witch vs. an Orc Warrior and Mitflit. I went Mitigate Harm with a Wood Breastplate so I could use Wood’s Armor Specialization to deal damage back if I got crit. The Guardian was an Orc with Irc Ferocity (just in case).

Was actually fun! Intercept Strike felt great to use and Taunt was a great debuff on the Mitflit as the Mitflit was on a hill providing ranged support for the Orc Warrior. The Witch was comfy and safe near me, though Maneuvers were our weak spot. The turns felt hard figuring out what to do as there are Move, Maneuvers, Taunts, Raise Shield, and Strikes to do. I felt like I never had enough actions to do what I needed and each turn felt less like I was trying to accomplish something, but more like looking at a check list of things I need to do and which one will get me in trouble for not doing. But other than that, defending felt great! For a Severe Encounter, it was beaten comfortably.

Actual Encounter #2: An extreme encounter of 2x Orc Warriors against a 2H Guardian that used Greatsword/Ferocious Vengeance and wore Chainmail. I picked Azarketi for Hydraulic Deflection to have a “shield” without a shield/parry. Partner was a Faith’s Flamekeeper Witch with a Restorative Familiar and the Runic Weapon/Heal spell prepared.

Initially, the fight felt very controlled. The Guardian protected the Witch, the Witch boosted the Guardian’s damage and also gave tempHP to the Guardian. The Orc Warriors eventually tried using flanking tactics on the Guardian, but the taunted Orc tried attacking the Witch. I just assumed the intent of Ferocious Vengeance is to last through the Guardian’s turn. The Guardian got a Nat20 Crit with their Runic Weapon and the high STR, Witch’s hex, and Ferocious Vengeance nearly one-shot the Orc. We cleaned it up fast before the Orc’s could try splitting us apart (with repositions).

This is where the fight went downhill. The last Orc tried running away and the Guardian chased. At 2/3rd HP, they got Crit by the Orc, only surviving due to temp HP and Chain armor spec. The 2nd strike at 1st MAP downed the Guardian. The Faith Witch was promptly bullied and deleted

Feedback: Threat Tactics and Builds - Initial builds are a bit deceptive. Going full offense or full defense doesn’t seem like a good idea. It seems better to do Ferocious Vengeance + Shield as Raising Shield offsets the enemy’s bonus attack against the Guardian. Targeting ally’s means your 1H weapon can try to compare to a 2H (I think the damage should scale at the same levels you get Weapon Potency runes and so it matches the same progression as a Thaumaturge).

Mitigate Harm is a mandatory choice for a 2H Guardian. Without the Shield and Freehand the 2H Guardian is extremely limited in what it can do. The 2nd encounter would’ve been better as either an Orc Ferocity or as a Shield/Ferocious Vengeance Guardian.

I can see why the Guardian doesn’t have Unarmored/Light armor scaling for “thematic reasons” and to avoid player traps…but 2H weapon is a player trap for those imagining themselves as the tank like the FF14 Warrior/Dark Knight or WoW’s Death Knight.

Intercept Strike - I LOVE IT! I don’t know why, but it feels great being the body-double that takes the hit for your ally’s. It feels fun. It feels thematic. And I feel heroic like I’m doing something for the party. The adjacency requirement does feel restrictive and hampering. I haven’t tried the feats (since I’m focusing on lvl. 1 play), but they look nice…yet slightly mandatory. #I would recommend that Intercept Strike be the Guardian’s class defining ability and the improvements for Intercept Strike be built-in as class features.

However…the survivability absolutely needs tuning. Mitigate Harm feels like it should be baseline, otherwise the Guardian being a 12HP class or their Taunt granting tempt HP feels like a way to help the Guardian being a meat sack for the party.

Taunt - Mathematically I understand how to use it, but it felt very fire-and-forget. In melee, it’s a bit weird because it depends heavily on the GM to roleplay as the bonuses/penalties feel a bit too metagamey. As a ranged debuff? FANTASTIC! The ability to weaken ranged enemies from sniping weaker allies is a strong niche.

Taunt Idea - What I love about Taunt is how tactical and situational it is. It adds an element of how the Guardian wants to control the field. My feedback? DIG INTO THAT MORE. I think instead, Taunts should be various abilities that can be picked up, like “martial repertoire”, kinda like Thaumaturge Implement abilities/Kineticist impulses/Witch hexes. There are a lot of “tanking spells” that could inspire some of these. Like using weapon to reflect light, irritating the enemy, but lowering their attack in ranged attacks. Or making Long Distance Taunt a baseline Taunt. Or a Taunt that makes it difficult terrain in any direction not approaching you. Making Taunts niche and situational…but strategic.

Armor - Armor is an extremely important customization for the Guardian like weapons are to the Fighter. However, I *feel* like it is extremely boring because of how passive it is. I think the Malleable Rune is going to be mandatory for Guardians so that Guardians can shift their armor strategy based on the situation. Fighting ranged archers or beasts - swap to Composite/Plate/Skeletal armor spec. High HP and willing to Taunt/leave defenses open? Use Wood armor spec. Dangerous boss? Swap to Chain. I feel like if armor had a something…else to it, it could be better. Not just more resistance, but maybe some “armor maneuvers” or something. Honestly, this is the hard part as it targets a specific gameplay element and not the Guardian directly.

Strategy vs. Tactics: The Commander feels to me like a tactician, picking the right types of shifting decisions to leverage the situation. The Guardian feels more strategic, figuring out what general approach and preparations the party will be sticking to per the Guardian’s position and loadout/build. I think digging into the Guardian as a “strategic play” vs. the Commander’s “tactical play” could be interesting.

Concern: Maneuvers and the Guardian’s “Ward”. While I didn’t get to actually do the tactic (because I was using minimal enemies of equal level), maneuvers will be a nightmare for the Guardian and a hard counter to them, similarly to how Wisps counter the Kineticist. The Reposition ability can be used to reposition a character (like a caster) away from the Guardian and further away than 10ft…rendering the Guardian’s (what I consider their CLASS DEFINING ability, Intercept worthless). I feel like something is needed to thematically help the Guardian be sticky, not to enemies, but to their allies.

Thematic Wishlist: The Sword and Board/Armored Knight seems well-supported. However, I think the class should still be opened to Unarmored/Light armor play, making the Guardian the best at ALL defensive fighting styles and not solely armor. This also means addressing the meaning of Armor Specialization for things that don’t have one, like Cloth. This might be addressed in the Battlecry book, but it’s a concern right now. The 2H Guardian needs some support as the Playtest Guardian relies too much on a Sentinel/Bastion focus for the available feats and the 2H Guardian needs some SOME mitigation, though not as much. It’s probably better just playing a 2H Fighter.

I’m still surprised how much I enjoyed Guardian though. I’m normally a controller/caster person, so I thought Commander would be my default and I would dislike the Guardian. I also don’t like playing Tank as there’s too much “leadership” expectation, when I instead want to focus on the whole battlefield and strengthen the weakest point. But I really REALLY love the bodyguard aspect of being an enabler, letting whoever is near me feel safe that I’ll take the damage for them. If Taunts were a selection of smaller abilities (alongside more support for 2H and Light/Unarmored), then I think the class would feel very solid! I do understand it makes it difficult to work out how to be both STR and Unarmored at the same time.

Great work with what we got so far!

I'm guessing the formulaic archetype too. I would only add that most class archetypes also have:

"Basic [splat] - add a level 1 or 2 class feat", and

"Advanced [splat] - add a class feat equal or less than half your level. You may take this feat multiple times".

So I'd expect to see those too.

Lol, can’t believe I forgot to include those. It’s just such a given. XD