Eoran |
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Speculation is harder to determine.
My hopes are simple. Full 3-slot caster base - so 8 HP per level and light armor proficiency. Basic Lesson as a bonus feat included as part of Patron selection (so that the Basic Lesson feat stays available for the Witch Archetype). Phase Familiar can become a level 1 class feat instead.
And rebalancing several of the Hex cantrips would be ideal. Since they are single target, they should be a bit more impact than Bard cantrips that affect everyone. Giving them a good effect on a successful save would be nice and seems to be a reasonable balance point.
Easl |
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And of course, complete rework of several trap option feats such as Wortwitch and Eldritch Nails.
Agreed. Nails and hair.
Actually I can expand that comment broader than witch. If a class feature gives you an "off-type" attack, it should use class proficiency. Or have the feat come with a built-in proficiency schedule. Or just...something.AestheticDialectic |
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If I were to wager a guess witch will go back to four slots and I would hope cackle becomes a default feature and the original role of the witch being the master debuffer comes back in how the focus spells and focus cantrips are designed, but cackle being automatic and maybe even easier to use would satisfy this for me. Really my biggest pain point is the 3 slots, when the playtest had four. We traded a slot per level for cantrips that are just okay
Golurkcanfly |
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My hope is that it becomes a proper Sustain specialist with Cackle (or a similar ability with a different name) as its core mechanic.
Alternatively, it could lean further into being a Familiar Specialist and use the Familiar like an ARPG "totem" that exudes an aura that buffs nearby allies/debuffs nearby enemies. Though I could easily see this design being used for a 2e Shaman instead.
Amaya/Polaris |
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I vaguely recall mentions that Witch as it is lacked space so they only put in the most basic/obvious ideas for the fantasy, that stuff like Hexes runs with a lot of restrictions and with hindsight they could remove or relax some of them, and that they want more guidance on the role of the patron and stuff.
Squiggit |
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What I'd like to see most is just more tools internal to the witch to give itself an identity. Focus cantrips that feel impactful. More focus cantrips could be really nice but that might be a bridge too far.
James Case designed the Psychic so whatever it is I'm confident it'll be a lot more engaging than the original
TBH in some ways the Psychic feels like another attempt at what the Witch wished it could be, so that's interesting.
Gaulin |
Not trying to set expectations too high, I'm not expecting much of a rework, just a few errata style tweaks. Honestly my main worry (and I know I'm not the norm) is that eldritch nails will be changed. As of now it's really the only way to have weapon runes be part of your character instead of just being another item they wield, which I really like. But, who knows. Maybe it will change for the better, add the finesse trait or not limit the runes on your nails to only nails attacks
Eoran |
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Honestly my main worry (and I know I'm not the norm) is that eldritch nails will be changed.
Wait, you don't want Eldritch Nails changed? I struggle to find a way that they could possibly be changed for the worse.
Because strength-based melee-range Witch that makes multiple Strike actions during their turn - really doesn't work. At all.
And the Hex delivery is a downgrade. It changes the Hex to be melee range only and gated by a Strength-based attack roll with minimum proficiency - and still allows the target to make a save against the effect.
As of now it's really the only way to have weapon runes be part of your character instead of just being another item they wield, which I really like.
Automatic Bonus Progression.
Farien |
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And the Hex delivery is a downgrade. It changes the Hex to be melee range only and gated by a Strength-based attack roll with minimum proficiency - and still allows the target to make a save against the effect.
And the fact that it only works for about three Hexes is just a cherry on top.
Golurkcanfly |
Oh, another idea that might be possible for Witch 2.0 (and arguably even more so for Oracle 2.0 and a hypothetical Bard 2.0) is to make it more like the Psychic, with only 2 spells per spell level for massively empowered/emphasized class features and focus spells.
This would also work well with the above described "Familiar Specialist" concept, though with this it might even be better saved for a Shaman.
Gaulin |
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Automatic Bonus Progression.
Yessss I knowww. But that's not always an option. A lot of gms don't want to alter adventures and pfs doesn't allow it, etc. And even then there's something really cool about being different, the only one in the group who doesn't need their super sword to fight, they *are* the weapon. And I'm not trying to change anyone's mind, like I said I know I'm in the super minority on this. Just wanted to voice my opinion.
AestheticDialectic |
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Oh, another idea that might be possible for Witch 2.0 (and arguably even more so for Oracle 2.0 and a hypothetical Bard 2.0) is to make it more like the Psychic, with only 2 spells per spell level for massively empowered/emphasized class features and focus spells.
This would also work well with the above described "Familiar Specialist" concept, though with this it might even be better saved for a Shaman.
Well, let me say this. The 1e witch was my favorite class along with the wizard. My favorite thing about the which was their hexes which were at will supernatural abilities(which did not count as magic for the purposes of spell resistance) that allowed you to be a master debuffer combined with their cackle ability which sustained them. I liked that this was part of the full caster chassis. They traded a slightly worse spell list and a spell slot for the hexes in 1e. Wizard was baseline 5 and witch was baseline 4. I would be willing to go psychic style with 2 slots instead of three for massively improved at-will debuff and support capabilities, however I would prefer the witch be what it is now with better focus spells and focus cantrips but also 4 spell slots. Which should be just as good as the wizard or sorcerer. I do not, at all, want a "familiar specialist" at all ever. It's not why I loved the 1e witch, it is not why I was excited for the new witch and it isn't why I asked paizo in the playtest to make some of the focus spells into focus cantrips. To me the witch should be a support caster with a focus on debuffs and a secondary focus on protection and healing. Cackle in this edition sustaining *all spells* at once is awesome. Witch is the only class that can sustain multiple spells simultaneously given the focus points. It is precisely this feature I want developed for the class to turn it into a proper successor to the 1e version, sell the class fantasy and give it a unique identity
CaptainRelyk |
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Gaulin wrote:Honestly my main worry (and I know I'm not the norm) is that eldritch nails will be changed.Wait, you don't want Eldritch Nails changed? I struggle to find a way that they could possibly be changed for the worse.
Because strength-based melee-range Witch that makes multiple Strike actions during their turn - really doesn't work. At all.
And the Hex delivery is a downgrade. It changes the Hex to be melee range only and gated by a Strength-based attack roll with minimum proficiency - and still allows the target to make a save against the effect.
Gaulin wrote:As of now it's really the only way to have weapon runes be part of your character instead of just being another item they wield, which I really like.Automatic Bonus Progression.
Bare minimum, the nails should be made into finesse. Bare minimum, but it should have more changes
AestheticDialectic |
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Eoran wrote:Bare minimum, the nails should be made into finesse. Bare minimum, but it should have more changesGaulin wrote:Honestly my main worry (and I know I'm not the norm) is that eldritch nails will be changed.Wait, you don't want Eldritch Nails changed? I struggle to find a way that they could possibly be changed for the worse.
Because strength-based melee-range Witch that makes multiple Strike actions during their turn - really doesn't work. At all.
And the Hex delivery is a downgrade. It changes the Hex to be melee range only and gated by a Strength-based attack roll with minimum proficiency - and still allows the target to make a save against the effect.
Gaulin wrote:As of now it's really the only way to have weapon runes be part of your character instead of just being another item they wield, which I really like.Automatic Bonus Progression.
Even making them use your spell attack proficiency is fine since you will still be a 6hp caster with awful armor in most cases. That already balances itself and becomes a sometimes treat
Jedi Maester |
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Well, let me say this. The 1e witch was my favorite class along with the wizard. My favorite thing about the which was their hexes which were at will supernatural abilities(which did not count as magic for the purposes of spell resistance) that allowed you to be a master debuffer combined with their cackle ability which sustained them. I liked that this was part of the full caster chassis. They traded a slightly worse spell list and a spell slot for the hexes in 1e. Wizard was baseline 5 and witch was baseline 4. I would be willing to go psychic style with 2 slots instead of three for massively improved at-will debuff and support capabilities, however I would prefer the witch be what it is now with better focus spells and focus cantrips but also 4 spell slots. Which should be just as good as the wizard or sorcerer. I do not, at all, want a "familiar specialist" at all ever. It's not why I loved the 1e witch, it is not why I was excited for the new witch and it isn't why I asked paizo in the playtest to make some of the focus spells into focus cantrips. To me the witch should be a support caster with a focus on debuffs and a secondary focus on protection and healing. Cackle in this edition sustaining *all spells* at once is awesome. Witch is the only class that can sustain multiple spells simultaneously given the focus points. It is precisely this feature I want developed for the class to turn it into a proper successor to the 1e version, sell the class fantasy and give it a unique identity
While the familiar is neat, I agree that this shouldn't be THE pet class. The idea of a witch is essentially you are cheating. Instead of studying for years in a school or being subservient to a deity or nature, you make a deal to cast spells yourself. And your familiar is just the cheat sheet your patron gives you. You are so good at cheating the system, you can learn divine spells without even needing to worship the divine! Cackle is a great example of this, but I'd love to see more ways the witch can cheat the system. Maybe learning spells from other traditions? Hexs as powers outside of the well known spells available to others? As much this as possible.
Captain Morgan |
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I would really like it if witches could get more hex cantrips. Being locked to one your whole career feels bad, especially if you get a lack luster one. It would likely cost feats to aquire, but bards can use feats to get new compositions. (And you barely need multiple composition cantrips as they don't have the immunity cool down hexes have for whatever reason.)
Themetricsystem |
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100% of the Lesson Feats to be given for free to a full Classed Witch at the level they are already listed at. Keep the Feats as is and add a Secondary Patron Feat so that you can still use them as a Witch and expand on what you do/are and to also enable the ability for MCA Witches to access Lesson benefits.
Each Lesson provides a Hex that is a Cantrip Focus Spell much like the Bard. It shouldn't cost them FP to cast at LEAST their most basic Focus Spell and do their thing, full stop. If someone wants to negotiate with me on this the only middle ground we are going to find is that I would be willing to accept SIGNIFICANT Bard nerfs in exchange for giving up on this point and making Inspire Courage cost 1 FP and given a 1-Action Concentration tax to maintain it in combat.
Eoran |
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I'm also fully expecting the choice of Patron to include a level 1 class feat just like Druid and Bard get. There are plenty of high flavor, low mechanical value 1st level class feats that realistically never get looked at during character creation or level up. Basic Lesson and Cackle are the only ones ever chosen.
Easl |
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keftiu wrote:The Witch is gonna have trouble so long as it’s defined by an underwhelming Familiar. I’d give anything for an option to swap the bad pet out for something more interesting.A cauldron, they should totally be able to rock a magic cauldron for communing witchily and stuff.
Yep, get it bubbling with all sorts of fun stuff. This is not the only "major theme" that would work for Witch, but IMO one classic major theme they could go with is consumable master. Like a Thaumaturge or Alchemist type, but caster-version: lots of feats letting them produce short-term minor magical giveaways.* Because who does the villager go to for the love charm? The witch, of course!
*But not bombs. That's all alchemists.
Gortle |
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I think these threads are a good idea. It is clear from Jason and Logan's initial announcement video that Paizo are doing some minor revisions not just removing OGL content and alignment. We may as well provide some more feedback. We should start some more threads.
The witch is really flavoursome and people want to play it. It is not unbalanced or anything but after a while when you start comparing it to other classes people feel disappointed.
The most iconic abilities with a Witch are Cackle, Cauldron, Hair, Nails. They are the ones we want to see work well. Yeah I know mechanically it is the familiar, but I said iconic. That is not to say that people don't like their pets. If you want to help pets then please do.
Cackle is such a great role playing freebie - every player can Cackle and it suits every witch - please make it a class feature and remove the hex limit from it.
Cauldron just makes sense for a witch. But I see too many witches go with an alchemy multi class archetype. Can Cauldron get some more support please?
Hair and Nails are OK but mechanically these feats aren't giving you much if anything as you can always just pick up a weapon.
Murksight is the weakest of the options that do this please remove the word nonmagical at least.
Then the elephant in the room. Witches get less spell slots, no arcane bond, 6 hitpoints. Either give them 8 hit points or more slots. Suddenly they look OK compared to the other casters.
Wei Ji the Learner |
Gortle wrote:To be clearer yes you do get something, but a 6HP witch with no armour really shouldn't be using these as a primary tactic. It is a multiclass option.Hair and Nails are OK but mechanically these feats aren't giving you much if anything as you can always just pick up a weapon.
Or roleplay flavor that could be used in a *pinch*.
Chromantic Durgon <3 |
I recently designed a home brew version of the witch that was focused on chanting and sustaining hexes and focus spells.
I gave it only 2 spell slots per spell level in exchange for better hexes and better focus spells because I thought it made sense to make them the meat of the class.
So I’d like to see something that did that
CaptainRelyk |
AestheticDialectic wrote:Well, let me say this. The 1e witch was my favorite class along with the wizard. My favorite thing about the which was their hexes which were at will supernatural abilities(which did not count as magic for the purposes of spell resistance) that allowed you to be a master debuffer combined with their cackle ability which sustained them. I liked that this was part of the full caster chassis. They traded a slightly worse spell list and a spell slot for the hexes in 1e. Wizard was baseline 5 and witch was baseline 4. I would be willing to go psychic style with 2 slots instead of three for massively improved at-will debuff and support capabilities, however I would prefer the witch be what it is now with better focus spells and focus cantrips but also 4 spell slots. Which should be just as good as the wizard or sorcerer. I do not, at all, want a "familiar specialist" at all ever. It's not why I loved the 1e witch, it is not why I was excited for the new witch and it isn't why I asked paizo in the playtest to make some of the focus spells into focus cantrips. To me the witch should be a support caster with a focus on debuffs and a secondary focus on protection and healing. Cackle in this edition sustaining *all spells* at once is awesome. Witch is the only class that can sustain multiple spells simultaneously given the focus points. It is precisely this feature I want developed for the class to turn it into a proper successor to the 1e version, sell the class fantasy and give it a unique identityWhile the familiar is neat, I agree that this shouldn't be THE pet class. The idea of a witch is essentially you are cheating. Instead of studying for years in a school or being subservient to a deity or nature, you make a deal to cast spells yourself. And your familiar is just the cheat sheet your patron gives you. You are so good at cheating the system, you can learn divine spells without even needing to worship the divine! Cackle is a great example of this, but I'd love to see more...
Honestly… yeah. It’s “thing” is making a pact, not having a pet
I’m probably gonna keep having familiars cause pets are fun if they become optional but some people want to just have their character make a pact with a being, without worrying about a pet
At least we have freedom with what our familiars can be, from typical things like owls and cats to things like tiny dragons from pseudodragon to tiny noodle boi
CaptainRelyk |
Cackle is such a great role playing freebie - every player can Cackle and it suits every witch - please make it a class feature and remove the hex limit from it.
I can tell you with 100% certainty cackle doesn’t fit every witch. It fits the iconic witch, but certainly doesn’t fit every witch
My fervor witch who made a pact with a holy divine dragon god certainly isn’t the dark and edgy cackling type
A witch who makes a pact with a tinker Bell style fey probably isn’t the cackling type
I would hate to have cackling become a class feature instead of an optional thing
Easl |
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I can tell you with 100% certainty cackle doesn’t fit every witch. It fits the iconic witch, but certainly doesn’t fit every witchMy fervor witch who made a pact with a holy divine dragon god certainly isn’t the dark and edgy cackling type
A witch who makes a pact with a tinker Bell style fey probably isn’t the cackling type
I would hate to have cackling become a class feature instead of an optional thing
But do we really need a rules change to address this? This seems an obvious 'player & GM judgement' situation, where you could say that in these cases the ability represents a prayer or ringing of bells. I am all for clear, specific RAW, but at some point you just have to accept that no fluff description of any ability is going to work for every possible theme or use, so rather than adding abilities that have different fluff but identical mechanics to address those odd cases, you just reskin them at the table without asking for the game designers to make a change. IMO Cackle does not need to be a literal cackle, it can be any free action which is (a) thematic with your pact and (b) obvious to those around you.
Sidebar: why do you create new threads just to repeat questions like this? This is the second time I've seen you do it...in just the past week. Your comments and criticisms of cackle seem perfectly in-line with this thread's subject to discuss, I don't understand why you want to start a second thread on it and potentially split the discussion into two places.
CaptainRelyk |
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CaptainRelyk wrote:But do we really need a rules change to address this? This seems an obvious 'player & GM judgement' situation, where you could say that in these cases the ability represents a prayer or ringing of bells. I am all for clear, specific RAW, but at some point you just have to accept that no fluff description of any ability is going to work for every possible theme or use, so rather than adding abilities that have different fluff but identical mechanics to address those odd cases, you just reskin them at the table without asking for the game designers to make a change. IMO Cackle does not need to be a literal cackle, it can be any free action which is (a) thematic with your pact and (b) obvious to those around you.
I can tell you with 100% certainty cackle doesn’t fit every witch. It fits the iconic witch, but certainly doesn’t fit every witchMy fervor witch who made a pact with a holy divine dragon god certainly isn’t the dark and edgy cackling type
A witch who makes a pact with a tinker Bell style fey probably isn’t the cackling type
I would hate to have cackling become a class feature instead of an optional thing
So maybe it bare minimum needs to be renamed or have a different description if it must be made into a base class feature and not be made optional
Like it could be renamed to “Witch Hymn”, and it could say “you cackle, sing, hum, or make any other verbal sound that is fitting of your witch and their patron theme.”
CaptainRelyk |
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But witch already is forced to have a familiar, if forcing a certain locked in flavour of witch is fine, I'd rather it he cackle
A familiar can be a tiny silver dragon, a nine tailed fox, a raven, a cat or anything tiny sized
Might make a witch whose patron is an extremely powerful imperial dragon, and their familiar is a tiny noodle boi that looks like the big noodle boi patron
I agree familiar shouldn’t be forced into every witch, but a familiar at the very least is customizable
A cackle is just a cackle and only that
WatersLethe |
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Gobhaggo wrote:A cackle is just a cackle and only thatBut witch already is forced to have a familiar, if forcing a certain locked in flavour of witch is fine, I'd rather it he cackle
People literally just gave you examples of how cackle could be flavored differently for different types of witches.
AestheticDialectic |
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But witch already is forced to have a familiar, if forcing a certain locked in flavour of witch is fine, I'd rather it he cackle
I don't think the question is familiar or this or that class feat. When I said I don't think the witch should be a familiar specialist, I meant that I don't think the power budget should be taken up by giving the familiar a bunch of abilities, but they can have a familiar and cackle as baseline features. Familiars are nice, but on the witch they're a liability, you can lose your spellcasting if it dies. Which it easily can. Having a familiar shouldn't be a big cost in the power budget
Squiggit |
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Familiars are basically a ribbon feature as is... and I'm also not sure baseline cackle does much for them either. One action once per combat for a focus point is... idk, kind of lame? Useful in the strictest sense but a little niche and not very flavorful.
IMO any attempt to fix the witch or strengthen its identity should focus on hexes. Hex cantrips need to be more compelling and there should probably be room for more hex cantrips too.
Onkonk |
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Familiars are basically a ribbon feature as is... and I'm also not sure baseline cackle does much for them either. One action once per combat for a focus point is... idk, kind of lame? Useful in the strictest sense but a little niche and not very flavorful.
IMO any attempt to fix the witch or strengthen its identity should focus on hexes. Hex cantrips need to be more compelling and there should probably be room for more hex cantrips too.
Yeah, if all hexes were closer to the mosquito witch one it would feel a lot more fun imo. Right now hexes are in a spot where a lot of them just feel lackluster and not very impactful. Something like Nudge Fate not even working on crits just feels punitive.