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So obviously lots of things are getting renamed/ditched with the remaster, one thing I’d like to see is Barbarian being renamed to Berserker, or something along those lines.
Barbarian hasn’t been a good moniker for that class for awhile, among other reasons (mostly insults, or not Greek), it comes down to the many ways to flavor Rage, from actual anger, to fight or flight instincts, to adrenaline, to a battle trance and very little to do with culture.
You don’t have to be from the wilds to be a Barbarian, they can read and write. Barbarian is non-indicative. The core of the class is the Rage. Everyone can have rage. People in the city are more likely to have rage honestly.
Yes. Would like monk to be less orientalist too, which the name plays a part in. Just the name alone is less offensive than with barbarian, admittedly.
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Yes. Would like monk to be less orientalist too, which the name plays a part in. Just the name alone is less offensive than with barbarian, admittedly.
That's a much bigger change to request unfortunately.
Like it or not, monk does have some baked in Asian flavor (I don't think it's a problem personally) what with them basically being a Wuxia hero. I do think the monk name needs to go, but the mechanics can stay. Just rename the class to Wuxia.
First time I saw the Monk class in a D&D inspired video game, I failed to understand what Brother Tuck had to do with unarmed combat. I was young, but still Wuxia is not exactly as widespread as medieval fantasy.
About Barbarian, I must admit I don't like the word Berserker. I personally feel that the Barbarian class slowly created a unique flavor that the word Berserker doesn't encompass. And PF2 Barbarian is definitely not a Berserker to me, things like Animal Rage, Draconic Rage, Spirit Rage paint a Barbarian who's more attuned to the elements of nature, spirits or specific creatures than just a raging combatant (which is the Fury Instinct flavor to me).
About renaming, I'm really sad about the Gnoll renaming. First, Kholo is a local name, it's not widespread among Gnolls. But there's also an entire Gnoll language. I would have loved to see a name for them that would come from their language (and as such a small description of how sounds Gnoll).
In my opinion, Paizo should remove the Gnoll language from Golarion. It's never used and even when they have an occasion to use it they don't (I assume Kholo is a Mwangi inspired name, considering that it's the name of Mwangi Gnolls).
First, Kholo is a local name, it's not widespread among Gnolls.
Maybe it is now.
First, Kholo is a local name, it's not widespread among Gnolls.Maybe it is now.
Unless Paizo rewrites the Gnoll history, it is not.
They haven't retconned many things so I don't expect it.
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Yeah if paizo takes this opportunity to do things like renaming hags or wendigo, they really should take opportunity to finally rename barbarian.
(monk also could seriously just be martial artist, but I honestly just want to see monks with martial profiency to get rid of all monk weapon shenanigans because their unarmed style strikes are already better than lot of martial weapons ;P)
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And PF2 Barbarian is definitely not a Berserker to me, things like Animal Rage, Draconic Rage, Spirit Rage paint a Barbarian who's more attuned to the elements of nature, spirits or specific creatures than just a raging combatant (which is the Fury Instinct flavor to me).
… I disagree.
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Plus come to think about it, doesn't berserker roughly mean something like "someone who wears a coat made out of a bear's skin"?
Like yeah they are warriors who fight in trance like fury which doesn't directly imply anything about totems or nature spirits or whatever. But how exactly does "barbarian" which was originally "non greek speaking person" and practically insult meaning "uncultured or savage" mean more close to nature? I don't think there is really difference unless we want to argue that druids are uncultured now.
So even if there might be better work for it than berserker, I think berserker is still better word for it than barbarian is
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And PF2 Barbarian is definitely not a Berserker to me, things like Animal Rage, Draconic Rage, Spirit Rage paint a Barbarian who's more attuned to the elements of nature, spirits or specific creatures than just a raging combatant (which is the Fury Instinct flavor to me).… I disagree.
I can also play with bold text.
So even if there might be better work for it than berserker, I think berserker is still better word for it than barbarian is
The issue I have with Berserker is the same I have with Fighter: It just says what the character does but doesn't come with any theme. Barbarian comes with a natural theme that it acquired through previous editions.
The word was poorly chosen, but it now represents something. I don't see a better term even if this one is not perfect.
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It was mentioned (in a Roll For Combat livestream) that in order to keep things backwards compatible, some name will have to remain, the example being Barbarian (since other stuff references Barbarian).
They said if/when it comes time to develop PF3e, then they can start revising things, like possibly renaming the class Berserker.
This revision is mainly to fold in all errata, plus scrub clean any OGL/D&D/d20 identifying stuff.
I just wished they named the books the same +revised instead of * Core.
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I can also play with bold text.There’s no playing, you’re discounting Rage in its entirety when it’s the main class feature and fantasy.
The issue I have with Berserker is the same I have with Fighter: It just says what the character does but doesn't come with any theme. Barbarian comes with a natural theme that it acquired through previous editions.Barbarian does not have a natural theme, unless you pick Animal Instinct.
The word was poorly chosen, but it now represents something. I don't see a better term even if this one is not perfect.
No it doesn’t. And it doesn’t mean “nature Warrior”.
It was mentioned (in a Roll For Combat livestream) that in order to keep things backwards compatible, some name will have to remain, the example being Barbarian (since other stuff references Barbarian).
With so much else being changed/renamed that seems really really dumb.
It’s a name. What is so paramount that the name can’t be changed or else systems will fall apart? What’s there to be backwards compatible with?
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Ah right that's true, because otherwise they'd have to create new versions of everything referring barbarian :/No? Just a have a sidebar pointing out the class has been renamed and things referencing the old name apply to it.
I mean, I agree with that, but I also know that people are pedantic and easily confused :/
(like people are already confused by stuff "things relevant to class can be in another chapter, such as in the spell chapter")
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Yes. Would like monk to be less orientalist too, which the name plays a part in. Just the name alone is less offensive than with barbarian, admittedly.
Monk is a European term. The class feature is very orientalist. Many religions have an equivalent to monks (a member of a religious order that lives in a monastery). While Shaolin monks practiced kung fu, European monks copied books and did Gregorian chants. So the current monk class doesn't need a new name. It needs a name of a god or religion added to it.
If the monk class were more fully developed, Monks could have a Doctrine like clerics, and monks of each religion having different features and abilities defined by their god.
The other direction to take the current monk class is to change the name and treat it as a martial artist, not connected to a religion or god.
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Ok, let's make things clear: There's no debate in here. I've expressed my feelings towards words and how I see the Barbarian. What are you trying to do? Convince me that my feelings are wrong? Good luck with that.
If it was pleasant to have a debate with you I could have engaged in one. But expressing your disagreement through bolding is hardly a nice move. So we will agree to disagree, thanks.
Well...wuxia being specifically a Mandarin word...I'm not sure how changing monk to wuxia accomplishes the de-orientalization task.Yes. Would like monk to be less orientalist too, which the name plays a part in. Just the name alone is less offensive than with barbarian, admittedly.That's a much bigger change to request unfortunately.
Like it or not, monk does have some baked in Asian flavor (I don't think it's a problem personally) what with them basically being a Wuxia hero. I do think the monk name needs to go, but the mechanics can stay. Just rename the class to Wuxia.
Sorry, I can see where most post is unclear. My intention is not to remove the Asian inspiration from the class. But to remove the confusion that the name "monk" specifically invokes. I don't see a need to remove the Asian theme of the class.
If the class had originally been named "Shaolin monk" it would have been much more clear what it was about.
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Yeah, Monk needs to go like yesterday. Biggest disappointment with 2e was that they didn't got with the Brawler as unarmed combat class.
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Oh... you might as well just keep it as is then. Shaolin monks are hardly the only ones practicing martial arts. Taoists and similar Chinese traditions have very monk-like martial arts practioners. I don't see the need to single a single sect of a single religion. And in fact, I can foresee that this would likely cause more problems than not because not all Shaolin monks actually practice the martial arts (wuxia film tropes notwithstanding).
You're right that while Shaolin monks practice kung fu, they also would be against committing actual violence against living things (generally speaking) but Shaolin monks are what the audience of the boo would most likely be familiar with to conjure up the same themes, or at least more so than just the word monk which can get you Friar Tuck instead.
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I’d be over the moon to have Barbarians become Berserkers.
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With so much else being changed/renamed that seems really really dumb.
It’s a name. What is so paramount that the name can’t be changed or else systems will fall apart? What’s there to be backwards compatible with?
They want the revised books to be compatible with everything 2e.
For example, if some old AP out there says something like, "Barbarians are not suggested for this adventure," but PF2R renamed the class Battle Rager, or Emotional Warrior, people might get confused.
Note: I know those examples are dumb, but I'm trying to think of something that doesn't have a direct correlation to Barbarian.
You could probably have a sidebar explaining what stuff got renamed, but then that presents 2 scenarios:
1. You have one, big sidebar to save space. You now have a sidebar everyone has to remember is there, like an errata box.
2. You move each sidebar next to the thing that was renamed. So the Berserker sidebar says, "Anything referring to Barbarian is applicable to the Berserker." Now WE might know the reason for the change and can easily make that correlation, but new players - who have never played the game before - might not, and now they also have to remember that name change because they bought an older AP. Imagine these forums filling up with "What book is the Barbarian in?" posts.
2a. A sidebar off any length might feel like a simple thing, but it's still takes up real estate. In that R4C livestream, they mentioned the original corebook was over 800 pages and they had to edit like crazy to get it down, either by chucking things or reformatting the text until it fit.
Personally, I'd be okay with a name change, but like I said above, I knew what a barbarian was before so I can make that swap in my head.
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I'd like to see Quick Draw renamed to Quick Strike, Drawstrike, or something similar in order to differentiate it from earlier editions where Quick Draw was a 'draw a weapon as a free action' that you could combine with any attack as opposed to the new 'draw a weapon and strike as a single action' ability.
It's a small thing, but the name doesn't quite match the PF2e feat's text and it's always struck me as an unnecessary point of potential confusion, particularly for players converting over from earlier editions...
EDIT: HumbleGamer, I'm fine with Monks and at worst indifferent to Barbarians, so it's not just you...
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This kind of "lets re-invent the wheel because we've already solved all the other problems" stuff is why I'm moving on from Pathfinder.
I failed to understand what Brother Tuck had to do with unarmed combat. I was young, but still Wuxia is not exactly as widespread as medieval fantasy.
Friar Tuck is not a monk.
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Honestly though I kind of like enjoying exploring the fantasy of "What if the Trappists got really into boxing instead of brewing"?
The thing that separates the monk from other classes is less "it's eastern" (though there is sometimes some uncomfortable orientalism) it's that these are people who use styles and techniques that were developed by people who had reasons other than "maximum efficacy" for doing things the way they do. If you're going to fight something very dangerous, you would want to wear armor and use weapons unless you have a non-practical reason for eschewing such.
One of my first thoughts upon hearing of the changes was 'ooh they could do some more class renaming', but the later notes on referencing getting muddy if they do is actually pretty reasonable, I'm okay with it waiting for a proper restart-from-ground-up edition change. (Nephilim is a different situation since it's a reorganization/consolidation as well.)
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I failed to understand what Brother Tuck had to do with unarmed combat. I was young, but still Wuxia is not exactly as widespread as medieval fantasy.Friar Tuck is not a monk.
Actually, he's not a friar as a friar is a member of a formal mendicant religious orders in England and the historical period of Richard the Lion-Hearted predates those orders. As such, no one could be a friar at that time.
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I’d be over the moon to have Barbarians become Berserkers.
I'm in agreement here. It's a smooth swap, and makes a lot of sense. On the other hand, I haven't heard a suggestion for replacing Monk that's easy and smooth. Replacing Paladin with Champion was a bigger and harder change.
This kind of "lets re-invent the wheel because we've already solved all the other problems" stuff is why I'm moving on from Pathfinder.
Re-naming one of 16 classes is "re-invent[ing]" something as essential as the wheel? This is far less than renaming a car part "ignite plugs," and has about as much effect.
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This kind of "lets re-invent the wheel because we've already solved all the other problems" stuff is why I'm moving on from Pathfinder.
It's more like changing the flat tire that the OGL became than its reinventing the wheel, and while the car is in the shop might as well get a tune-up at the same time.
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Lolz. To be fair, the whole Robin Hood story is a story that got invented at a much later time than the Lion-Hearted. So anachronisms appearing in it shouldn't be too surprising.Actually, he's not a friar as a friar is a member of a formal mendicant religious orders in England and the historical period of Richard the Lion-Hearted predates those orders. As such, no one could be a friar at that time.I failed to understand what Brother Tuck had to do with unarmed combat. I was young, but still Wuxia is not exactly as widespread as medieval fantasy.Friar Tuck is not a monk.
LOL Yeah, I understand. I just can't help but try to be the most technically correct I can be! ^_~
Kholo
Yeah, this is a thing too! The term 'gnoll' is iconic but I don't mind the rename, it's one of several they kinda set up in advance as what they (or at least a certain subsection) prefer to call themselves. Wonder if catfolk (amurrun) and ratfolk (ysoki) will follow suit at some point.
Barbarian-Juggernaut or Berserk
Ranger-Pathfinder
Monk-martial artist but it is already taken