Vasyazx's page

Like the reason that all the horrible things exist in the world, and that death ends your existence is that these are also true of the real world, and indeed the point of the Pathfinder setting is to allow you to tell stories that are recognizable and fun for players who exist in the real world.

So there's no point in having a fictional roleplaying setting that is utopian, since these stories necessitate some manner of conflict and stakes, and "you really don't want to die" is also the fundamental stake of the human condition.

Like "that resurrection is possible" is all you really need to make death significantly less horrific in Pathfinder than it is in reality.

I mean if you go directly into meta-reasoning we can use problem of evil and Euthyphro dilemma to deny legitimacy of gods authority in Golarion

exequiel759 wrote:

I personally I want to believe that when a daemon eats a soul it isn't destroyed but rather its forced into reincarnate as a daemon, kinda like how when you sign a devil contract you are forced into Hell upon death.

Well, it's not strictly canon (both because I don't have a text citation, and because James isn't terribly fond of his posts being wielded out of context to win internet arguments) but I do recall mention in the Ask James Jacobs thread from a few years ago that the consumed soul isn't completely annihilated, and that something of it remains to fertilize the earth, in a metaphorical manner of speaking.

Of course, this was speaking for pre-judgement souls bypassing the Boneyard because they were devoured and so skipped directly to the stage where their essence joins with the Great Beyond, albeit in a place perhaps not intended. Pharasma doesn't love this, but soulstuff still arrives somewhere, even if not where it was meant to. By contrast, already judged souls arriving in Abaddon as the Hunted are basically exactly where they should be and whether they get eaten within moments of arrival or not doesn't really change what happens after a soul is judged except that the shade gets composted a lot faster than for other final destinations.

But again, the ecology of daemon excrement has never (and probably will never) been published as canon lore for the setting, so it's up to us to decide what happens to the soul components after consumption by a soul-eater. Even so, I think a naturalistic lens is supported.

Aren't souls quintessence simply merge with demon upon consumption?

My problem with the notion that "the afterlife in Golarion is to send each soul to reward or punishment" is that I see a discontinuity of identity once you are separated from your memories at which point either reward or punishment becomes impossible. This to me works since if "how the afterlife works" became well-known there'd be no reason to for a rational person to choose "evil" or any other life-path that results in punishment rather than reward. "Choosing evil" makes so much more sense to me when the reality of the afterlife is that "you" cease to exist when you die. Something else that was affected by your actions exists and what happens to that thing might be good or bad from that thing's perspective, but that's like tracks you leave in the mud or ripples you leave in the water after you have passed by.

You could theoretically argue that shades and mortals that they once were at least have same consciousness due their shared quintessence even if can't prove that is possibly best guess.

Trip.H wrote:

Quote:

When a mortal dies, their soul travels to the Boneyard in the Outer Planes where they are judged by Pharasma, the goddess of the dead. Once they have been judged, their soul is sent on to their final reward or punishment in the afterlife, and in the process is transformed into a creature known as a petitioner. This process grants the soul a new body, one whose shape is the result of the prevailing philosophical forces of the plane to which it is sent. The petitioner's memories from their life are typically wiped nearly clean, allowing them to retain only a few hazy fragments akin to half-remembered dreams. Regardless of the petitioner's size, power, or nature in life, they're a Medium creature in their afterlife.

So no, you have provided 0 textual reason to think the amnesia is natural to death. It's an artificial thing imposed by Pharasma herself, and happens after the mortal is judged.

There is also no evidence that Pharasma is responsible for this (from this source at least). Like most of your arguments, as far as we know this is an inherent part of the system outside of anyone's control, and you have not provided any evidence that other systems wouldn't lead to much worse outcomes.

Say what you will about the current system, but its efficient, and if it stops being efficient the universe ends. Could there be some way thats just as efficient, or even slightly less efficient but way more moral? Maybe, but no one in universe seems to think so. I can't think of any cannon characters that think the current system needs to be replaced except like Ugathoa, and I would expect any that do exist to be similarly evil.

Well Pharasma is full-fledged creator of majority of Great Beyond so its fair to say she is responsible for how things works in most cases unless it directly said otherwise as for opposition there was already said that most character in universe don't even know how afterlife works in fist place to have their perspective on that matter and those who do usally biased to some degree(gods priests outhersiders )

The whole point of the afterlife in Golarion is that each soul ascends to one of two fates—reward or punishment. Pharasma is the manifestation of how that fate plays out for every soul; whether she knows it before hand or makes that decision on the spot is something no one, likely not even her, knows for sure, but as with every other mortal, an athiest's soul will either be rewarded or punished in the afterlife. And as with all souls, the exact details vary from soul to soul.

THAT SAID...

While I still stand by what I said in the above quote, in those 13 years, a lot has changed—including my role at Paizo. The company is MUCH bigger than it was 13 years ago, and I'm no longer the creative director of it all—there's far too much for one person to cover in that role at Paizo's scale of being a small company in a niche industry but simultaneously one of the biggest proverbial fish in that industry. Today, we've got multiple creative directors, creative officers, and creative leads who all work together to create Paizo's products. It's a more inclusive and more diverse method but it's also one that's a bit less efficient, and results in no one person really being in the position of being able to off-the-cuff "issue canonical proclamations" about any of the settings we produce.

My advice for folks who are deep-diving into topics like this is to chat with others, look over the things we've said before in print and in public or online, and then decide what's best for your personal game. I've tried to step back from issuing large world-building things like the one above and prefer to let these discussions play out among folks as they have been, but since I know once you say something online it's there forever, I felt the need to step in and provide some context to the above.

Well that is rather ambiguous since it seems that those rewards and punishment are not in sense of some universal justice because both good and evil can be rewarded in sense of desirable afterlife prime of example of that is Calistria since in her realm both liberators and antipaladins ended up in Elysium so i wonder then for what souls punished or rewarded if not for their moral character ? Is that rewards for undestanding system well and finding suitable places for yourself in it ?

Vasyazx wrote:

They can do quite a lot actually

They can create clone and then kill themselves to personally experience process of body hop
They can die and personally visit boneyard and then get ressurected via ritual
They can remove their souls and put into soul jar soul cage or construct
all above overall confirm connection between your soul and personality since moving your soul would also move your pesonality alongside it.

One thing I would observe is that if your experiments require ninth tier spellcasting, the number of people on the planet of Golarion who can actually manage that level of magical skill is pretty small, and they might not be willing to work together.

Like Golarion is a place where heads of state are like 12th-16th level and might not have peers where they can go on dangerous adventures to explore the limits of reality. PCs could certainly do it, but PCs are by nature exceptional.

Like "hey let's go to the Boneyard and interview some Psychopomps to write a paper" is a thing I wouldn't bat an eye at if it was a player who wanted to do that, but I'm wouldn't be sure there's anybody currently walking around on Golarion who has done that, what with two of the most powerful spellcasters running around being undead.

Ressurecction ritual and Planar Servitor avalible for anyone who is expert in religion and don't require you to be caster at all so you dont need to be high level or caster to acess it and plane shift is seventh not ninth tier and there is other of planar travel measures there. Only high level ritual here is clone but it dont required you to be caster as well. We also dont know number of high level characters at all and some AP provide pretty bug numbers of them in some cases

I'm pretty sure it's been established that if you die and visit the boneyard, you don't actually remember your time in the boneyard.

It's like getting drunk, your metaphysical brain forgot to record and store your time there. You did as you'd do, but you can only make educated guesses to the sort of thing you'd do.

Now, planehopping to the Boneyard is a different matter.

I suppose your companions can summon your own sprit via Call Spirit to confirm you presence in boneyard or you can send another person there via plane shifit or projection to talk with you pesonally and confirm that as well

What empirical evidence could one (say, a leading academic in Rahadoum) collect that confirms the existence of the soul or its effects? Like presumably with plane shift and observation we could observe shades in the river of souls being processed in the boneyard, but it's entirely valid to view those as the echo of a person and not anything intrinsic or important to the individual that created the echo. Like plainly ghosts exist, but they are distinct from the person they resemble.

Like couldn't any magic that affects "the soul" be instead interpreted as magic that affects the mind or the body instead? You could certainly render someone akin to a corpse with the right application of chemicals or specific kinds of brain damage.

A valid read from a Golarion atheist is that the thing that leaves your mortal shell and passes through the river of souls to be judged by Pharasma is not, in fact, you. It is simply a reflection or an echo that marks your existence. You could even go to the boneyard and interview shades and they would tell you that the fragmented dream-like memories they experience feel like a different person was involved in those.

They can do quite a lot actually

Shade are diffrent matter in that case since we know that they are metaphysically fully cut from prevous peson they were since spell they react towards specifc peson no longer recgonize them as such (ressurection and clone) and we can say that anything is shared between them besides some unclear memories but i suppose process of turning souls into shade already would make some people have deep aversion towards afterlife in general

R3st8 wrote:

You are comparing souls with eggs and livestock? as if having your souls turned into planar mortar is some small favor?

You're right, from an atheist perspective eggs are more important than souls. Eggs can become poultry or breakfast, and both are useful to a living person. Souls have minimal value to a living person- you can't even tell that you have one or if there's anything wrong with it.

Atheists are specifically people who should not be worrying very much about souls.

That can ridiculous thing to say since all things that related with your personality and consciousness are part of the soul other can easily see that when removal of the souls basically turn you into corpse even if they are atheist

Vasyazx wrote:

Grankless wrote:

I'm so fascinated by the extent to which people will just straight make up things about Pharasma so they can get mad about them. Do any Forgotten Realms gods get this treatment? Probably Mystra?

Faerûnian pantheon and their wall of faithless there was even addon in neverwinter nights 2 that was fully dedicated to that specific issue

Thing is, the Wall is canon (and so stupid). I'm talking about just straight up making up fake things to be mad about.

Arent 5e removed it from canon?

Grankless wrote:

I'm so fascinated by the extent to which people will just straight make up things about Pharasma so they can get mad about them. Do any Forgotten Realms gods get this treatment? Probably Mystra?

If I recall correctly kelemvor who is their arbiter of the dead also has similar issues. Worse because instead of go find a nice place in the bone yard to sleep option for staunch atheists they stick them in a wall to scream for all eternity.

It mostly Myrkul(who created it first place) and AO(who forced kelemvor to keep it )fault rather then Kelemvor own

Yeah, Pharasma is pretty professional about things. Be a loyal worshipper of Urgathoa, and despite the fact Pharasma hates her, she'll still send you to Urgathoa's realm.

Urgathoa is pretty weird case since she basically source of undeath and maybe even diseases and she somehow was able to directly escape Pharasma judgement while being mortal and then became god but we pretty much know nothing on why and how that happened and why Pharasma allow her to do all of that in first place

Vasyazx wrote:

-Upload your soul into a construct like the ancient Jistkan Artificers.

would that be evantually shut down like in case of clone spell? if it isnt then why shut down clone spell in first place?

Most likely not, since you can play one of these. So there are still Jistkan Artificers running around it's just that most of them broke (hence rare ancestry) and a lot of them had extended periods of isolation that sort of broke their personalities.

Pharasma has no beef with steps people take to prolong their lives (except undeath) since some amount of that is to be expected. If you upload your soul into a machine, the machine can still die- I mean, Golarion is eventually going to blow up and Rovagug is going to get out. Good luck surviving that.

And the problem with becoming a Fae, of course, is that as a native to the First World you are subject to being completely changed and remade by any more powerful Fae that has that idea appeal to them, and the Lantern King has a cruel sense of humor. So you're basically trading "one tyrant" for "a bunch of pettier tyrants."

So what is her problem with clone then since it basically same thing(only diffrence is body)?

Vasyazx wrote:

becoming fay seems to be best option here since it allow you preserve most your individuality and remain independent from gods overall

This is actually the opposite impression that I get from the description of souls that become fey (or fae). I could be misremembering, but typically once a soul lands on the First World it transforms into a typical example of a random fey creature. Fey are supposed to have free will, sure, but further going off the fact that fey who die on the FW similarly transform, often not retaining much similarity of personality, I think going to the First World means embracing the logical extremes of the notion that there is no permanent, unchanging state of the self.

Assigned to the First World in Pharasma's judgment immediately reincarnate as a type of fey whose behavior aligns with the soul's mortal personality Such souls retain more of their mortal memories than shades of other planes but not enough to recall their mortal lives

R3st8 wrote:

It's almost as if you are railing against the mere idea that death might not be inevitable in a game. Why do we need to go out of our way to bring fatalism into a fictional world? Why add things like 'clone' and 'raise dead' just to have a deity shut it down?

I mean, I guess that's your prerogative but that is the setting.

Golarion was originally the creation of James Jacobs out of his homebrew. Golarion as published is not exactly everything James' homebrew world is, as others have had impact and provided detail and direction in aspects of and he has not directly overseen every detail.

But ultimately, someone needed to create a cosmology for the universe and this is the one that was chosen.

To me your question is about the same as asking "why do we have to die" in real life. There's not an answer, that's just how things are.

As for clone and raise dead, those things still largely work. Very occasionally a deity might get involved and stop something from happening. But that is very much a rare situation. Hell, it Pharasma couldn't/didn't stop Tar-Baphon from becoming a lich, it clearly illustrates that gods cannot or will not do anything and everything just because we think want to. There were likely repercussions that Pharasma could not ignore that stopped her from grabbing Tar-Baphon's soul and stopping his ascension to lichdom.

In general there are reasons why deities don't interfere in the world of mortals as much as they would like, including stopping clones or reincarnation from working.

But the possibility for divine interference is left open, mostly because it happening rarely makes for an interesting story and it allows GMs to say "I've had enough of this, it doesn't work".

Clone and ressurection are abillities that directly said to be under Pharasma full control in game rules she can block them at any time she wants

I'm so fascinated by the extent to which people will just straight make up things about Pharasma so they can get mad about them. Do any Forgotten Realms gods get this treatment? Probably Mystra?

Faerûnian pantheon and their wall of faithless there was even addon in neverwinter nights 2 that was fully dedicated to that specific issue

I know some people are bringing up that even if you're a petitioner, you'll eventually return to quintessence, and correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought the process of going from outsider to quintessence was exceptionally long, like in the realm of multiple millennia, a cosmic scale lifetime.

The problem is when you become petitioner you already lost most of your memories and personality traits and when you become full outsider all those are completly gone and your essecne is used to create new being

R3st8 wrote:

QuidEst wrote:

R3st8 wrote:

The issue is that, unlike other gods, you will always meet Pharasma at the end of your life, and the fact that Rahadoum is aware of their bleak prospects in the afterlife highlights my point. How can one say she is hands-off when she is the one who decides the fate of your soul? You can run from a tyrant king and avoid Asmodeus like the plague by never getting close to a contract, but you cannot avoid Pharasma.

Yeah, but that's death and what happens after. "You can't avoid death" is a pretty big running theme in a good chunk of human literature and mythology for as long as those have been things. In Greek mythology, getting on Hades' good or bad side (or a god influential enough to call in favors with him) determined how your soul spent the afterlife. Egyptian mythology had the heart weighed against a feather. China had a celestial bureaucracy determining what happened to you after death.

"What happens after death?" "It depends on what you did on life." "Who decides that?" "The god whose job it is to do that." Definitely not culturally universal, but it's also not uncommon.

If I recall correctly it was clarified that most of the outer gods don't exist outside reality, only the Watcher who is presumed to be Yog-Sothoth. The others exist in the "vast nothingness of space between solar systems". But I could definitely be wrong on that.

In any event, I think "dying and turning into quintessence is an option". I guess you would just argue that the petitioner shouldn't have to go stand in front of Pharasma or her servitors to do so. And honestly, I don't know that we know that you need to. If a soul is so determined, they might just be able to dissolve themself. Or maybe go to the Void/Negative energy plane. Or go to the Maelstrom.

They predate Pharasma and Great Beyond:

According to many scholars (including Tabris, who calls them Those Who Remain in the Concordance of Rivals),5 the Outer Gods are so ancient that they predate the Great Beyond and Pharasma, and thus the concept of mortality itself. Many Pharasmins consider this to be blasphemous, but the truth may not be something they can accept
And they can fight her on equal footing since Nhimbaloth forced her into draw
So it safe to say that they are above cycles

I mean, one can rage against the tyranny of gravity, or one can construct an airplane. The former doesn't help you do the latter.

Yes, Pharasma objects to Necromancy, but there are multiple Pharasma-approved methods for opting out of the whole cycle of souls:

- Become Mythic and achieve immortality that way.
- Achieve Apotheosis
- Get your soul diverted to the First World when you die, this nominally involves "worshiping one of the Eldest" but given the nature of the Eldest this can be transactional.
- Upload your soul into a construct like the ancient Jistkan Artificers.
etc.

The fact of the matter is that much like how airplanes need to land eventually, everything is also going to end someday, and the soul of everything from Rovagug to sea otters ends up in the river whose terminus is at the Boneyard. Most Rahadoumi atheists aren't extremely principled along the lines "no god should have any power over me" since if you think about it, (in the game world) Asmodeus does exist and he could show up and set you on fire any time he wanted to. Gods are more powerful than you, but so are dragons and kings and one doesn't worship those.

A really principled "Pharasma will never touch my soul" person could instead travel to the Void (formerly the Negative Energy Plane) and hurl themselves into a patch of nothingness. This doesn't accomplish anything, but the thought of doing it might make you feel better.

- Become Mythic and achieve immortality that way.

becoming fay seems to be best option here since it allow you preserve most your individuality and remain independent from gods overall

Pharasma is the most evil tyrant for *checks notes* managing the Byzantine and inevitable process of death.

I find it kind of silly to think that Rahadoum would necessarily hate Pharasma (or the psychopomps) for sorting the dead. One need not like or worship Pharasma to get a good afterlife and liking or worshipping her may not save you from a bad one, either. She didn't even invent the concept of death--that seems to have been the Bound Prince. At the end of the day, she's just the overworked bureaucrat managing the paperwork coming in the door.

Pharasma (and the psychopomps, again--can't forget them as it's been stated before the psychopomps indeed have multiple courts for managing souls with or without direct input from Big-P) sends souls to whichever plane most aligns with their behaviour on a philosophical level (this used to be specifically LG/CN/NE etc but now it's just not specific to those letters) and then if you worshipped a deity, you might get sent there instead--assuming that deity will take you. Considering the Laws of Mortality, this option would not be popular with Rahadoum, but that's fine because they were already set for being grouped with like-minded souls anyway.

Presumably Rahadoum has a government like most places. Do they also refuse to pay their taxes because Maldouni isn't worthy of worship? Alignment is dead, but Rahadoum was supposed to have been a fairly lawful society. Disdaining the gods and their worship doesn't mean one automatically desires to tear down the structures of the cosmos. Most Rahadoumi would never even resort to sticking around the Boneyard--atheists have the same range of afterlives as any other soul. It's only those that reject the entire metaphysical order and choose to wander the Graveyard of Souls.

I'm sure there may be some who reject the system by association with the god running it, but the reality is sooner or later souls need to go somewhere lets they transform into ghosts and haunt and harm the living and flood the universe....

Rahadoum specfically reject god autority over mortals in any form including Pharasma judgment so that directlty put them in odds even if they dont aim towards rebeling against her

Reincarnation is valuable option for some people and not for others and it also mantained by Pharasma so that isnt perfect option for her opposition either

Vasyazx wrote:

Well house always win so even if you reject the game your essence still be used to futher one of gods agenda in these case you become building material for top god personal plane that doesn't sound as satisfying end for follower of laws of mortality

This feels like having strong feelings about which tree grows on your burial site. At some point you have to learn not to care about things you have no input on. I imagine a good part of "onboarding the recently deceased" is getting them to come to terms with this fact.

Well you do have some input on that to be fair since you can take your so in place where you soul dont directly benefit any side in great beyound

GM Sedoriku wrote:

I don't think there IS a satisfying ending for followers of the Laws of Morality.

That's the secret, there's not a satisfying "end" for anyone.

Eventually everything will end into nothingness, with literally one Survivor and the key to start to the next reality.

Technically also the watcher who exists outside of reality.

Well you can at least die on your own terms instead of becoming pawn in divine conflict also outer gods(not only yog ) exist outside multiverse so (and some old ones as well i suppose )you can goto their plane if you want to avoid cycles entirely

R3st8 wrote:

The issue is that, unlike other gods, you will always meet Pharasma at the end of your life, and the fact that Rahadoum is aware of their bleak prospects in the afterlife highlights my point. How can one say she is hands-off when she is the one who decides the fate of your soul? You can run from a tyrant king and avoid Asmodeus like the plague by never getting close to a contract, but you cannot avoid Pharasma.

I'm just not sure why atheists are all that concerned with the fate of their souls. Like even the most ardent member of the Pure Legion understands that when they die, it's someone's responsibility to dispose of their mortal remains, and likewise it's someone's responsibility to dispose of their less tangible remains. That second duty falls to Pharasma. You can either choose to accept her judgement, or just wait out eternity in a quiet, peaceful place. What is it an atheist would want from the afterlife other than the second part?

The afterlife in Pathfinder is neither a reward nor a punishment, it's basically just recycling. The story of the person who had memories and identity ended when they died- upon their soul's transit through the afterlife whatever comes out the other end will have neither that person's memories nor their identity.

Followers of laws of mortality do care about their souls:

Castilliano wrote:

An eternity becomes an eventual hell, quicker so if one's just waiting. Optional annihilation should be an option too, at least at some point, at least for the conscious mind. Then donate the essence to some cause, sans deities if possible. Is there a cosmic Doctors Without Borders? Or deity that recognizes deity-worship is problematic?

Planar adventures describes the graveyard that those who refuse judgement or those who cannot be judged for whatever reason as a peaceful spot where eventually all but the very strongest of wills eventually just go to sleep in their grave and merge with the foundation of the boneyard. That's like "oblivion, but you have a grace period to meet new people and say your goodbyes if you want" which seems like as nice an end as any. People could even visit you there, but eventually you're going to run out of things to care about and you'll peacefully fade away.

Well house always win so even if you reject the game your essence still be used to futher one of gods agenda in these case you become building material for top god personal plane that doesn't sound as satisfying end for follower of laws of mortality

An eternity becomes an eventual hell, quicker so if one's just waiting. Optional annihilation should be an option too, at least at some point, at least for the conscious mind. Then donate the essence to some cause, sans deities if possible. Is there a cosmic Doctors Without Borders? Or deity that recognizes deity-worship is problematic?

That claim is dubious at best due plenty number of beings in pathfinder universe that seem rather okay with existence for very long time(undead, various mages spritis ,demigods e.t.c) since the beginning of time(various gods and planr entities ) or even before that(outer gods and Pharasma herself) .On the other hand followers of Laws of Mortality would certainly not want to donate their essence to further case of any gods since that would be against main point of their convictions

I mean pretty strange to talk about recall knowelge as wizard niche when other int caster can actually do it better due number of skill at first level
He also have knowelege is power feat but it isnt something unique to him since magus also can use it
His mastery over arcane lore is also something that have zero representation since he dont have anything that make stand from other character that simply level their arcana

On side note can somebody explain why Wizard still get less basic trained skills than other intelligence casters even after Remastered.I fail to see any reason behind that

I suppose it would be good option to allow intelligence to be used as main stat for recall knowledge checks for any skill

Remember, Bumi, a single Legendary Earthbender is capable of leveling an entire city all by themself after being locked up in a coffin with barely the ability to breathe or eat for months. A motivated Avatar going full-blue could do so without batting an eye. With the assistance of the spirit of the Ocean, a fleet of hundreds of Battleships and Cruisers was demolished by a tsunami wave that is was at least 300 ft tall and a mile wide.

Remember, ATLA is a kid's show and you have to view it through that lens, at every opportunity the showrunners were encouraged to downplay the impact of violence, death, and adult themes despite it being absolutely saturated in them. Kyoki SPLIT a segment of the planet's tectonic plates to the mantle and created a whole new island. Aang and Korra are children who at just about every point in time that they are under their own control and not consumed by rage when using the Avatar State (or literally fighting another God...) very much holding back.

The scale of power that is wielded by the Avatar in the Avatar state is just functionally not within the scope of levels 1 to 20 for PF2. If a game were run where a player in it is the Avatar I very much think Avatar State events are probably a "hand over your character sheet" moment and handled with narrative collaboration between the GM and player.

There is two big exaggeration here:

Vasyazx wrote:

I wonder why can paizo that already borrow alot from 4 to take its saves sytstem because current saves system create inherent imabalnce between stats by making dex con and wis inherintly more desirable stats than str cha and int.So from my persecrtive there should option to use them for saves as well:

Str for fort saves
cha for will saves
int for reflex saves
So you dont have to always take same stats just to keep you saves high.It is also open door for a lot of new builds and make medium armor more valuable

Reflex is already separated between Strength and Dexterity. So your system would put 2 saves on Strength.

I wonder if any change would help. Wisdom for initiative/perception and Constitution for hit points will certainly stay as they are, and Reflex being already split between 2 stats, it may in fact change close to nothing to optimal stat spread.

Str is not fully cover reflex saves you can only use it against damage effects unless you take sentinel and even then you still ended up with 4+ at max.So now maxing int will become option for characters that dont have it as main stat

I feel like a model like this would make some stats overly powerful. Strength and Charisma are too very powerful stats in this in edition, making them also key saves would move up a further tier which is probably counter to the goal of stat spreads as they stand.

A champion, for instance, who is already focused on Strength and Charisma, being able to move their saves from their current secondary stats to their primary stats, would be too strong.

In case strength there not much changes because classes that max strength would max their constitution as well only big differnce here is high level where via apex item you can gain +7 to your specific stat

I wonder why can paizo that already borrow alot from 4 to take its saves sytstem because current saves system create inherent imabalnce between stats by making dex con and wis inherintly more desirable stats than str cha and int.So from my persecrtive there should option to use them for saves as well:
Str for fort saves
cha for will saves
int for reflex saves
So you dont have to always take same stats just to keep you saves high.It is also open door for a lot of new builds and make medium armor more valuable

Best source on how lichdom affects your personallity is WOTR game since there you go through all way to become lich and its seems that overall transformation will keep you personality intact but influence of negative enegrgy that is used to keep living will slowly change your persona towards more egocentric like it did with Zacharius

Well that is better solution overall but it would be far harder to implement

On side note for those who think that fighter is overpowered in your opinion what nerf he should receive to be in line with other Martials?

Vasyazx wrote:

Current fighter lacking of defender subclass that can trade his legendary weapon proficiency to legendary armored and unarmored defence and probably some reaction that allow him defend allies.Same goes for champion that should have offensive subclass

Both already exist.

The first one is called "play a champion". The fighter is a weapon specialist, so if you take that away, you are taking away the class.

The offensive champion subclasses - with a little less sass - are called Paladin, Tyrant and Antipaladin. They could use more feat support, but they most definitely exist. Paladin and Tyrant at least are both extremely effective.

Champion is very specific deity focused class class so he dont really fit into all archetypes of defender warrior And fighter is rather fighting style specialist rather than a weapon specialist

Current fighter lacking of defender subclass that can trade his legendary weapon proficiency to legendary armored and unarmored defence and probably some reaction that allow him defend allies.Same goes for champion that should have offensive subclass

Vasyazx wrote:

Gortle wrote:

Because they have 18 Int. I mean I see your point technically but are 7 starting skills not enough. I mean most other caster classes will have 4 and you want even more?

Why same penalty does not apply to Psychic then? he start with 18 int as well and Int is not main Magus stat by the way so that only apply to Wizard

By referring to this difference as a penalty, you are suggesting that all of those classes should have the same number of skills by default.

Why are you making that assumption?

Because their are only one who have less skill than other clases i want to know what is the reason behind that

Temperans wrote:

Wizard needs massive upgrades all around:

* Skills the same as other casters.

I feel like they could take it or leave it, they already get a bunch from being int based, after all.

I mean, shoot, spare a thought for the sorcerers, they get 3 or 4 trained if they don't add anything to int.

That logic could work if we don't have Psychic who can have int as their main stat but still get four trained skill as base.

Because they have 18 Int. I mean I see your point technically but are 7 starting skills not enough. I mean most other caster classes will have 4 and you want even more?

Why same penalty does not apply to Psychic then? he start with 18 int as well and Int is not main Magus stat by the way so that only apply to Wizard

For Wizard-if Paizo won't make any significant changes with feats or thesis then just:
1.Give them simple weapon proficiency
2 Bring their starting skill numbers in line with other caster classes
3 Give them free lore based on their school(universalist get weaker version but for all arcane spells ) that progresses alognside with arcana so they can more esaily learn and recognize spells that they specilaize in.

Is there any specific reason why magus and wizard have one less starting trained skill than other classes with same chassis i suppose for wizard reason was that he was class with intelligence as main stat but existence of int based Psychic contradict that and i am currently still wonder what is the reason for magus

Vardoc Bloodstone wrote:

I used to feel that way. Having every single L1 PC with an 18 in their key attribute just didn’t feel right - like every fighter can bench press the exact same amount?

I’ve moved away from that, though, and now I see the bonus as just a combination of natural talent and trained skill. So having a 22 Int doesn’t mean you have a 220 IQ, it just means you’ve trained your mind and are able to apply it to your Int-based skills.

My fighters don't. Some are DEX based then STR is all over the place.

But that is another problem. People are so obsessed with balance that every fighter has to start with 18 STR. I am happy to roll ability score then work out what my class should be. But I may as well say I like killing puppies. I know how unpopular that opinion is.

It's not obsession it's actually game requirement you need to have either 16 or 18 in your main stat for most classes otherwise you will be in huge disadvantage

Barbarian-Juggernaut or Berserk
Ranger-Pathfinder
Monk-martial artist but it is already taken

AIUI, there is no RAW debate to be had here; a PC with the spell is capable of casting it at NPCs. The question is how NPCs would react to you doing it.

But you did advocate doing it:

Quote:

In previous thread i suggested that divine lance can be used for detection of evil people in some situation...

Quote:

I give example of war camp where demon disguised as one of the soldiers so my idea was:

1Allow some people to avoid long investigation if they go through divine lance test...

That's advocating for it, for at least some circumstances. And, ironically, the only one breaking RAW here is you, because giving NPCs extra HP in order to make the spell less likely to kill them is certainly not RAW. I would absolutely not do that. If they want to go down this morally questionable path, then they should deal with the consequences of their choices.

Lastly, to be clear, when I brought up my examples (cult, deity, government), all of those were intended as campaign situations to confront the PC's *with*. As in: "NPCs are doing this: PCs, how will you react to it." Those examples were not intended as "hey PCs, to detect the demon in your camp why don't you...and as GM I will even make doing that more appealing by..."

1 i do not blame anyone on viloating the raw here we overall debate how using holy lance can be viewed in Golarion.Also characters giving temp hp to npc via splell or magic item is not viloating raw by any means

Vasyazx wrote:

In previous thread i suggested that divine lance can be used for detection of evil people in some situation and then being called evil psycopath who just want to murder and harm people for no reason or something like that

This is IMO primarily a setting and table-decision sort of issue (i.e. what sort of game does your group want to play?). IIRC the Kuni witchunters in the L5R ttrpg sometimes do exactly this: jade strike people they merely suspect of being corrupted, to see if it affects them. But that's a different game, a different setting, and it's only one small weird group of casters.

I'd mostly agree with your critics that that doesn't really fit well with *this* genre, or with how most people would want to play *this* game. I also agree with one or more of the posters that (the way I'd GM them) a lot of the good aligned Golarion deities would likely withdraw their favor from a mortal who abused their power that way. But OTOH I can certainly see campaign backgrounds where this happens. Say, where the campaign includes some more-lawful-than-good type of cult who thinks the ends of rooting out evil is worth the means of potentially harming innocents. Or some Moorecock-like lawful (presumtavely good) deity who turns out to care a lot less about individuals than their followers think they do. Or, say, a campaign where demonic infiltration is very common and a major threat to the realm, so that checking for it becomes normalized. You could even make a plot line over this: CG types and LG groups in the government/community being at odds over whether to use it, with the PCs getting to decide which to support.

But outside of some specific campaign reason for behaving this way? Yeah as a GM I'd try to steer player behavior way away from this, and I would likely not make my Good gods approve of it or my "good" police and investigative forces work like what you're proposing. And regardless of the PC's motive, if they independently chose to do this on random villagers they'd...

1 All things are table and setting dependent we currently just debate how things work by RAW

Vasyazx wrote:

Lurker in Insomnia wrote:

When using a Holy Lance as a demon detector, the odds of murdering someone who has convinced themselves they aren't evil may be low, but not zero.

I make all necessarily preparation to make lethality of spell equal to zero even for evil target(temp hp for target,first level version of spell and Nonlethal Spell metamagic)

Again missing the point. You are intentionally causing harm to others. Doesn't matter if you have their permission, doesn't matter if it isn't lethal. Doesn't matter how you rationalize it, it fits pathfinders definition of evil.

On a more practical note, many normal soldiers may already be evil, but loyal to the king. Being Evil in and of itself is not sufficient grounds to cause them damage. Good can only cause harm in the defense of others or themselves.

This is a classic case of "the ends justify the means" thinking which many tales have been written about heroes falling into evil due to this rationalization.

Well then any action that can cause harm is evil by your logic for example using risky surgery is evil because target must first recive harm to be healed.

On the one hand, evil very often takes pains to sound reasonable, even justifiable. On the other, I've only seen half of this debate--what exactly are you hoping to prove? That there is an exceptionally niche set of circumstances where it is plausibly morally justifiable to blast people with holy powers to root out evil? That cheesy divine lance tactics make detect alignment spells unnecessary in a rare tailor-built scenario? To convince people that alignment is a farce and stop using it?

It started as my argument that having tools that outright able to tell you that someone is good or evil is overall bad for system if you want to have moral ambiguity