You are totally missing the point.By this you are cutting one third of the combinations entirely. You are savaging the whole concept. I'm just suggesting knocking off the top few, around one in nineteen. The ones that are a problem.
You are also defaming my position by making suggestions I defintely did not. It is really only offense that you need to worry about here for balance. I drew a very clear line and you attack it by running all over it?!?
You are also wrong to suggest that a caster with twice the number of top level spell slots is not a reasonable increase in power.
My argument was that even if you gut things that far, you still haven't carved out the unfair advantage that you can get out of martial/martial. Fighter as a combo isn't necessarily stronger than any other martial/martial. It's just easier. Getting the cheese out of other classes takes more skill, work, and attention, but it's still very possible to get enough of the martial/martial stacking effects to seriously outshine anyone who isn't going martial/martial.
I'm not saying that doubling your spell slots is pointless or anything. It's clearly useful. Similarly, turning your third action into a standard attack from a viable martial is clearly a step up. I'm saying that it doesn't really compare, at least in most cases.
No rogue flurry ranger? Hmm let's try the dual flickmace flurry ranger barbarian. Add the soulforger dedication. Works better after mighty rage and double prey and gets really nasty at the highest levels.It still doesn't work well.
Hunt Prey has the Concentrate Trait, making it incompatible with Rage.
Yes, you are getting a bit of action efficiency back here, but Mightly Rage has limits and only helps for a few two action rage abilities Dragon Breath being the only one I'd normally bother to take.
You end up having to waste two actions on Rage (or Moment of Clarity), and Hunt Prey reasonably often. Maybe 2 in your first round and two in your 3rd round.
Good luck.
Hmmm, triple threat is a bit late for it to actually work. Shame about that. But it works very well at 20th level!!!
We'll have to agree to disagree
Ok, your build is focused on low level. Still, I disagree (and don't agree to disagree so soon).
For me, that is PRETTY important as I rarely get to the highest levels so being able to get in and out of several archetypes or getting auto raising skills to increase as many skills I have can as soon as I can is a substantial boon to me. Most times I'd rather have more expert and master skills instead of more legendary skills is I don't know if I'll see 15th level.
Unfortunately, you are still behind the build I've shown (Investigator Summoner).
Let's consider level 9 as a point of comparison (just before Rogue Skill Mastery starts to really kick in and my build getting 4 skill increases every 2 levels).If I consider that I take both Inventor (3 feats) and Acrobat Dedication (2 feats), Dual Studies from the Summoner and one Skill Mastery (2 feats) at 8, it's 8 skill increases (which is certainly equivalent to what you can grab with your build).
Then, you have to compare the stat arrays. Your build starts with 18, 18, 14, 12, 10 (roughly). Mine, thanks to the double stat array, is 18, 18, 18, 14, 14. +2 to Athletics and +3 to all Dexterity-based skills.
Of course, you can take Summoner Dedication and Dual Studies, but it's 2 increases for 3 feats, so my build would still be higher in terms of skill increases.
Conclusion: my build gets at least as much skill increases than yours but also benefits from the Summoner double stat array, the Eidolon helper and the extra action per round (that is easier to use on skills).
Also, maxing out skill increases with rogue/investigator also means no no class feats for 8th and 10th level from either class: just pushing back Suspect of Opportunity can be painful.
We are theorycrafting the best skill monkey, I don't think any of our build is really "viable". And anyway the goal is not to discuss combat efficiency.
Rogue combos pretty well with casters in general, as it turns out.. In particular, Magical Trickster lets you apply your sneak attack damage to damage rolls of spell attacks vs AC when the target is flat-footed and you successfully hit them. It's only once per target per spell, but if you can find multitarget attacks vs AC, it'll hit all of them.
...and the benefit of the caster side is that you get full caster proficiency progression rather than archetype caster proficiency progression, and you have more and better spell slots to do it with.
Sadly, all of the other feats that talk about sneak attacks explicitly refer to "strike", so you can't really get more than that, but getting any sort of meaningful damage add on spell attacks is pretty significant.
I don't personally know the spell list well enough to know which spells would be good for this, though. Are there any good multitarget spell attacks vs AC out there? If nothing else, Dancing Blade and Imaginary Weapon start to suggest that it might work out reasonably well for the psychic... and hey, the Dancing Blade is explicitly making Strikes, so we might be able to fit in a few more boosts there. I'm not saying it's likely, and I won't be going through to check, but it is possible.
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Rogue combos pretty well with casters in general, as it turns out.. In particular, Magical Trickster lets you apply your sneak attack damage to damage rolls of spell attacks vs AC when the target is flat-footed and you successfully hit them. It's only once per target per spell, but if you can find multitarget attacks vs AC, it'll hit all of them.
...and the benefit of the caster side is that you get full caster proficiency progression rather than archetype caster proficiency progression, and you have more and better spell slots to do it with.
Sadly, all of the other feats that talk about sneak attacks explicitly refer to "strike", so you can't really get more than that, but getting any sort of meaningful damage add on spell attacks is pretty significant.
I don't personally know the spell list well enough to know which spells would be good for this, though. Are there any good multitarget spell attacks vs AC out there? If nothing else, Dancing Blade and Imaginary Weapon start to suggest that it might work out reasonably well for the psychic... and hey, the Dancing Blade is explicitly making Strikes, so we might be able to fit in a few more boosts there. I'm not saying it's likely, and I won't be going through to check, but it is possible.
Only one enemy get the effect when you hit multiple targets.
Rogue/bard works well for this. Staff of divination for true strike, lingering Dirge of doom, Dread striker and I personally like Biting words, you can get enough languages through multilingual. But your still mostly a bard with more skills (very useful), some more damage with attack spells and some extra useful defensive options like mobility.
Only one enemy get the effect when you hit multiple targets.
Magical Trickster:
"Whether you’re using magic items, wielding innate magic, or dabbling in spellcasting, you can sneak spells past your foes’ defenses as easily as any blade. When you succeed at a spell attack roll against a flat-footed foe’s AC and the spell deals damage, you can add your sneak attack damage to the damage roll. If your single spell leads to multiple separate damage rolls, apply your sneak attack damage only once per target."I'm pretty sure you're incorrect. Now, you do need to be rolling spell attack against each of them, and you have to have all of them be flat-footed besides, but....
Rogue/bard works well for this. Staff of divination for true strike, lingering Dirge of doom, Dread striker and I personally like Biting words, you can get enough languages through multilingual. But your still mostly a bard with more skills (very useful), some more damage with attack spells and some extra useful defensive options like mobility.
"Somewhat juiced bard" is still pretty strong.
I'm liking the Dread Striker/Dirge of Doom combo, especially on a build where flat-footed might otherwise be a bit tricky to come by.
I do note, though, that we're going to have someone who's hanging back, making noise, and not making all that many weapon attacks. They're going to have a fair number of feats on the Rogue side, at least, that are looking for a home. Why not Marshall? You're not using your stance, Inspiring Marshall stacks just fine with Dirge of Doom and also boosts your own spell attacks, and people are going to want to be doing things near you for the aura effects anyway. Target of Opportunity in particular is pretty good for this build, if you have an appropriate ranged weapon (which you should) and you get up that high. You're already investing in Charisma.
We are theorycrafting the best skill monkey, I don't think any of our build is really "viable". And anyway the goal is not to discuss combat efficiency.
That's where you're wrong: it's a build I've actually played and it's quite viable.
Conclusion: my build gets at least as much skill increases than yours but also benefits from the Summoner double stat array, the Eidolon helper and the extra action per round (that is easier to use on skills).
But then I'd have to play a summoner and that's not something I'd enjoy. That and it's not really apples and oranges: your Eidolon doesn't get full use out of your skills as they don't get skill feats or other abilities that you do that modify feats: your pet might have better stats for Athletics but can't use Titan Wrestler or Quick Jump. You're also losing out on number of skills. All in all, I'd MUCH rather play my build.
your pet might have better stats for Athletics but can't use Titan Wrestler or Quick Jump.
Yes you can, there's a feat for that. You can't get Legendary level skill feats, though.
You're also losing out on number of skills.
I don't follow you, you get all of them.
I don't personally know the spell list well enough to know which spells would be good for this, though. Are there any good multitarget spell attacks vs AC out there? If nothing else, Dancing Blade and Imaginary Weapon start to suggest that it might work out reasonably well for the psychic... and hey, the Dancing Blade is explicitly making Strikes, so we might be able to fit in a few more boosts there. I'm not saying it's likely, and I won't be going through to check, but it is possible.
Scorching Ray seems the best one, you can shoot 3 of them in a single round.
your pet might have better stats for Athletics but can't use Titan Wrestler or Quick Jump.Yes you can, there's a feat for that. You can't get Legendary level skill feats, though.
I meant that it can't use your feats: that feat allows allows they to have 3 skill feats of their own. That's cool but it's not helping them use your 16 skill feats and that's what I was getting at.
You're also losing out on number of skills.I don't follow you, you get all of them.
You read it wrong: I was talking about the summoner literally having less total skills, not the pet. They are Trained in 2 from eidolon and 3 + Int from base class. Add 1 + lore from background and you're looking at staring with 6+int out of 16 [excluding lore] for a max of 9 starting. If you dual class it with investigator you pick up 3 [society, methodology, 1 higher base] more for 12. This of course leaves you with a dangerously low AC [imo]. You could pick up a skill or 2 with your racial feat but that might get you to 14. Even picking up Dual Studies to 'tie' leaves you in a situation where one skill will only ever get skill feats from Skilled Partner.
Now a rogue is 10 + background and int for a for 15 out of 16 to start. Adding investigator lets you start with every non-lore skill Trained. You can then use your racial and class feats as you wish.
Speaking of Magical Trickster, some GM's will let it apply to the Spell of a Spellstrike so if your GM allows that you to do that Magus+Rogue can hit like a truck with double Sneak Attack.
They might allow it, but it's not in the rules. Spellstrike explicitly cuts out the spell attack roll.
Gortle made a very good post explaining why you apply Sneak Attack twice per RAW. Also, it's clearly not the conversation (and it's one that already spilled lots of Internet ink).
I meant that it can't use your feats: that feat allows allows they to have 3 skill feats of their own. That's cool but it's not helping them use your 16 skill feats and that's what I was getting at.
We won't agree on skill feats. I have never used half of the skill feats of my characters. Few of them are important, the rest is negligible, 3 feats is enough to get everything I need on an Eidolon (and 24 on the Summoner is twice what I'd ever use).
I was talking about the summoner literally having less total skills
At level 2 (with Dual Studies and Inventor Dedication), you are Trained in all the skills. That's why I say I don't see your point, being Trained in a skill is not especially hard with Dual Classing.
And at level 1, Trained means +3, so the double stat array compensates it again.
Gortle made a very good post explaining why you apply Sneak Attack twice per RAW. Also, it's clearly not the conversation (and it's one that already spilled lots of Internet ink).
I'd be interested to know where that post was. I don't believe I've seen it.
/**********/
So, I'd been looking further at dual-class options with alchemist, specifically for bomber purposes. What I'm finding...
- Fighter: Of course it works. Mostly boring. Next.
- Barbarian: I was a little surprised, but this works just fine. Quick Alchemy is Manipulate, but not Concentrate, and, of course, Raging Thrower is a thing, so the core combo is very much in place. Probably go Spirit Barb - making yourself hard to shoot is going to be more useful than getting really big or turning yourself into a dragon.
- Rogue: I was a bit surprised to find that this combo does not work fine. You can get sneak attack just fine, but I'm not seeing a way to give the rogue full proficiency progression on thrown bombs.
- Ranger: if bombs counted for Hunted Shot, this would be great. As-is... the action cost for hunting gets to be problematic. Admittedly, Penetrating Shot can get kind of humorous, and there are feats that apply in useful ways to generic ranged weapons/attacks, but it's not enough to make it comparable. It might be workable with some sort of shenanigans based on making use of Snap Shot, but that would involve real work to pull off properly.
- Thaumaturge: Doesn't work so well. Quick Alchemy needs both hands free, and both Implement's Empowerment and Exploit Vulnerability need one of them filled. Juggler doesn't work well on stuff that you're going to be cycling in and out that frequently. Great for any prepped bombs you might have, but not so great for perpetuals. Also, dex/int/cha is a bit of an ugly spread.
- Investigator: It can work. Both are happy going int/dex, and the primary combat features of the Investigator work just fine with bombs. The bomber is even well-positioned to take advantage of the investigator's "use more powerful attacks when you know you're going to crit" trick. The issue is the action crunch. Once you get to level 7, you'll want to be able to perpetual alchemy up two bombs in a turn and then throw both of them. This works just fine for the investigator if you're pursuing a lead, but if you're not, then devising a stratagem is going to take a fourth action that you don't have. Subject of Opportunity can help once you hit level 10 (just like Everyone's a Suspect can at level 20) but the real question is how good you are at that whole "being an investigator" game... and how good your GM lets you be. If you can consistently walk into each fight having pursued leads on your foes, it works great. If this pretty much never happens, then it's going to be kind of a pain. Then, too, there's the whole alchemist minigame about knowing the alchemical items list like the back of your hand - even moreso if you follow the Alchemical Sciences methodology. Basically, Investigator takes a particular kind of unusual player skill, and alchemist takes a particular kind of unusual player skill, and the combo just doubles down on both. If you have both, and you can run both at the same time, you'll be awesome. If you're flailing at both, it'll feel generally awkward and bad.
- Swashbuckler: nope. The swashbuckler is entirely uninterested in any ranged attacks that aren't agile unarmed.
- Champion: not particularly well-built for anything but melee
- Monk/Gunslinger: Class features do not work with bombs.
- Magus, Inventor: The action economy is really not great here.
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Gortle made a very good post explaining why you apply Sneak Attack twice per RAW. Also, it's clearly not the conversation (and it's one that already spilled lots of Internet ink).I'd be interested to know where that post was. I don't believe I've seen it.
I think he means this one. Read around to be fair to the discussion.
Further comments on that are probably best in that thread.
Gortle made a very good post explaining why you apply Sneak Attack twice per RAW. Also, it's clearly not the conversation (and it's one that already spilled lots of Internet ink).I'd be interested to know where that post was. I don't believe I've seen it.
I think he means this one. Read around to be fair to the discussion.
Further comments on that are probably best in that thread.
Ah. Thank you.
My takeaways:
- There are serious disagreements on the topic.
- I really don't want to put my hand in that blender.
Given the level of ongoing disagreement, I am forced to accept that it's legit DM-specific. Given that, @Guntermench, I acknowledge that your phrasing was entirely appropriate, and I was incorrect in calling you out for it.
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I have no idea if this combo is actually good, but it was very funny when I played it: Meteor Hammer Fighter + Curse Witch. The meteor hammer is a massive cheeseball weapon to begin with (lmao reach + critical knockdown), but witches have access to a lot of one-action debuffs thanks to their hexes, and Cackle can make sustained spells especially nasty. So, I wound up with this incredibly cursed routine where I'd debuff someone, knock them down, and then laugh at them while smacking them with a ball and chain as they failed to stand up. Being able to constantly deny enemy actions while frequently gaming the action economy myself turned me into an absolute troll that made up for not killing dudes quickly by making them absolutely hate every round they survived.
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I have no idea if this combo is actually good, but it was very funny when I played it: Meteor Hammer Fighter + Curse Witch. The meteor hammer is a massive cheeseball weapon to begin with (lmao reach + critical knockdown), but witches have access to a lot of one-action debuffs thanks to their hexes, and Cackle can make sustained spells especially nasty. So, I wound up with this incredibly cursed routine where I'd debuff someone, knock them down, and then laugh at them while smacking them with a ball and chain as they failed to stand up. Being able to constantly deny enemy actions while frequently gaming the action economy myself turned me into an absolute troll that made up for not killing dudes quickly by making them absolutely hate every round they survived.
The enemy must have hated that character. Probably drew aggro just by roleplay alone.
The enemy must have hated that character. Probably drew aggro just by roleplay alone.
Oh absolutely, and she FOR SURE would have been dead had there not been a Paladin/Divine Sorcerer deflecting some of those hits and patching her up. Eventually, the GM gave up on solo boss fights because our kits combined made it impossible for them to actually do anything on their turn.
But yeah, nothing paints a huge target on your back like being the biggest bully on the battlefield. Ironically, the closest she came to death was when she tried to grapple an aurumvorax--the monster specifically designed to win grappling fights--because I am a moron who kept forgetting to use Combat Assessment and/or common sense.
@SuperBidi came up with an interesting idea over on https://paizo.com/threads/rzs434km?Hard-to-Kill-Builds of a Barbarian+Vibrant Thorns build that might actually work really well for a "dual class no dual martial" game. It would need more fleshing out, but there's some real possibilities there.
Speaking of which, there was also a concept I saw a while back for a Barbarian that archetyped into Life Oracle who sits in the back and throws axes while using his HP (and Renewed Vigor) to shield his party members. Again, might work better as a dual class, given the issues that oracle archetypign brings.
consider a little houserule:
classes with animal companions and the like get a custom feat that allows them to use their unique benefits for a thematicly fitting eidolon
Inventor/Summoner: Construct Eidolon that gets additional upgrades
Ranger/summoner: beast Eidolon that can take advantage of the precision edge
I could go on but you get the idea
Gunslinger/Starlit span magus: you get not a lot of shots but you got the nastiest crits in the game
any (Melee) Magus with Tangible Dream Psychic - because d8 cantrip per default is just nasty and besides searing ray it is the second spell that has a synergy with spell swipe (for a focus point)
Fey Summoner + Primal Caster- your eidolon gets better spellcasting too
champion + gunslinger multiclass into bastion - take one handed firearms and a shield starting level 6+ as you can reload with shield in hand
I am personally interesting in looking for good combos with barbarian, there doesnt seem to be much (if you are not allowed martial stacking that is) alchemist sounds good - and I guess it will be a really good fit with the upcominc kineticist
Neither the Barbarian nor the Ranger combo all that well because their main class restriction is baked in. The AC and concentration problems of the Barbarian, and the action cost of Hunt Prey.
Barbarian is quite tricky.
Rogue, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge do some nice things but the weapon choices are not normal for a Barbarian. You may be able to get it to work.
Fighter and Monk work probably too well.
Champion is fine. The reaction and the extra AC is good.
Inventor has potential, though finding INT is tough.
Alchemist could work.
Gunslinger is ranged and just clashes.
Concentration rules out Ranger, Investigator and basically of the spell casters. Perhaps Druid WildShape (GM dependant), or a Cleric are options for first round or post combat casting.
I am a bit late to this party, but I am planning on a dwarf Druid (leaf/wild) [Fighter/Sixth Pillar] for an upcoming Kingmaker campaign.
Fighter is Free Archetype.
Should keep Wildshape viable throughout career.
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Jumping in a bit late as well, but some time ago I put together an Inventor + Investigator build that seemed fun to play.
Besides the main gimmick being that you get to use INT for mostly everything, you also get some other nice stuff going on there. Inventor gives really good options to use if you fail your devise a stratagem roll, like commanding a construct or using save abilities like Megavolt. Both of the classes also get lots of party support in the form of Shared Stratagem, Overdrive Ally (and Shared Overdrive) and didactic strike, which stack up really nicely.
I also love the Inspector Gadget feel of the build.
I particularly like alchemist/ranger. Great synergy with the 2 best alchemist subclasses. Bomber and toxicologist. Flurry is the clear choice for spamming bombs and/or poison arrows. Can buff an animal companion with elixirs too.
The problem here, on the bomber at least, is action economy. None of the ranger actions really work all that well with thrown bombs, which means that the best you've got for at-will is the standard craft/throw/throw combo of the bomber... and that doesn't leave any space for dropping hunter's edge. If Hunted Shot worked with thrown weapons, this would be a very different thing, but it doesn't.
Neither the Barbarian nor the Ranger combo all that well because their main class restriction is baked in. The AC and concentration problems of the Barbarian, and the action cost of Hunt Prey.
Barbarian is quite tricky.
Rogue, Swashbuckler, Thaumaturge do some nice things but the weapon choices are not normal for a Barbarian. You may be able to get it to work.
Fighter and Monk work probably too well.
Champion is fine. The reaction and the extra AC is good.
Inventor has potential, though finding INT is tough.
Alchemist could work.
Gunslinger is ranged and just clashes.
Concentration rules out Ranger, Investigator and basically of the spell casters. Perhaps Druid WildShape (GM dependant), or a Cleric are options for first round or post combat casting.
Thaum/Barb works quite well with unarmed attacks, which isn't all that odd. A combination of Thaumaturge and Animal Instinct Barbarian should do quite nicely for itself. Admittedly, the fact that you cant' Recall Knowledge while raging is a bit of a hit.
Barb/Rogue and Barb/Swashbuckler require weapons that are finesse but not agile... which, admittedly does get a bit weird. Rogue/Barb also does really well with thrown bombs... if you can manage an adequate supply of thrown bombs. Barbarian/Swashbuckler can also be a heck of a grappler once you get to level 10 or so. Still, it's true that these are basically niche builds. The combos are there to be found, but you have to shape yourself a bit weird to get them.
Barb/alchemist raging thrower is really good. It all just lines up.
Barb/inventor is functional, but relatively weak. A big part of what makes the inventor go is that it's effectively a semi-caster. It has access to solid MAP-limited attacks and also has access to effective MAPless two-action attacks. Any time it's using the latter, though, it's getting no benefit from barbarian... and while overdrive is okay if you build your statline for it, and the innovations can be handy, it's just not all that much to add on to what the Barbarian has already.
For barb/cleric, it's worth noting that both heal and harm are somatic-only at the single-action level.
The problem here, on the bomber at least, is action economy. None of the ranger actions really work all that well with thrown bombs, which means that the best you've got for at-will is the standard craft/throw/throw combo of the bomber...
You use a bow for at-will attacks (as you only need one hand to hold it). And you go Precision for the extra damage on Bombs. It's very viable for a build, you end up dealing quite the amount of damage (Alchemist damage + Precision + Master proficiency is not negligible at all). Even without Dual Class you can build one that packs its punch, it's on par with the Barbarian or Fighter Bombers (which are overall better than the Alchemist Bomber at throwing Bombs).
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The problem here, on the bomber at least, is action economy. None of the ranger actions really work all that well with thrown bombs, which means that the best you've got for at-will is the standard craft/throw/throw combo of the bomber...You use a bow for at-will attacks (as you only need one hand to hold it). And you go Precision for the extra damage on Bombs. It's very viable for a build, you end up dealing quite the amount of damage (Alchemist damage + Precision + Master proficiency is not negligible at all). Even without Dual Class you can build one that packs its punch, it's on par with the Barbarian or Fighter Bombers (which are overall better than the Alchemist Bomber at throwing Bombs).
That's basically skipping out on not just perpetual bombs, but also quick bombs in general, and the associated additive feats. You wind up not *that* much better off than a ranger with a few archetype feats and a bunch of bombs in their pockets from an alchemist buddy. That's pretty weak gains for a dual class martial/martial build.
I'm not saying it's not viable. I'm sure it is... but given the resources we're playing with, "viable" is a pretty low bar.
That's basically skipping out on not just perpetual bombs
Good riddance. Perpetual Bombs are beyond salvation. I don't know why people love to focus on them considering how bad they are, even with half a dozen feats to support them.
but also quick bombs in general
You need Quick Bomb for the build to work so I don't understand what you say.
You wind up not *that* much better off than a ranger with a few archetype feats and a bunch of bombs in their pockets from an alchemist buddy.
Yes. It's just that instead of 2 characters you have only one.
That's pretty weak gains for a dual class martial/martial build.
Alchemist is no martial class. It's actually closer to a caster one in terms of role (buff, healing, energy damage on a miss).
The best Bombers are no Alchemists. Same for the best Mutagenists.
I'm going to leave aside the argument over perpetual bombs for the moment... unless you really want to get into it, in which case I'll get into it.
but also quick bombs in generalYou need Quick Bomb for the build to work so I don't understand what you say.
Quick Bomber the feat, yes. I was talking about Quick Alchemy (Bombs), which this build pretty much skips entirely (or at least severely reduces) by keeping one hand full... and with it all of the additive feats.
It doesn't even leverage Ranger all that well. Like, all that you're getting out of the ranger side of things when you throw a bomb is the damage boost from precision and the not-terrible proficiency. Basically none of your feats apply. Effectively, for bomb-throwing, a dragon instinct barbarian with raging thrower is strictly better in multiple ways.
You wind up not *that* much better off than a ranger with a few archetype feats and a bunch of bombs in their pockets from an alchemist buddy.Yes. It's just that instead of 2 characters you have only one.
That's not really up to the cheese level we should expect of an alchemist/martial dual class who's really trying. We really ought to be pulling more out of the alchemist side than just "I have a bag full of consumables that I use sometimes". There's certainly more there to pull.
That's pretty weak gains for a dual class martial/martial build.Alchemist is no martial class. It's actually closer to a caster one in terms of role (buff, healing, energy damage on a miss).
The best Bombers are no Alchemists. Same for the best Mutagenists.
You're... almost right. A single-class alchemist is in many ways a weirdly-shaped caster. That's true. They're getting there through martial techniques, though, and they get these weird compensatory feats and features that make them almost viable as martials. That's what makes them so strong (potentially) as dual-classers - because they can get the advantage of all of those feats and features on an actually decent martial chassis. As far as overall synergy gains available, alchemist/martial is absolutely a martial/martial.
Quick Bomber the feat, yes. I was talking about Quick Alchemy (Bombs), which this build pretty much skips entirely (or at least severely reduces) by keeping one hand full... and with it all of the additive feats.
I have never used Quick Alchemy for Bombs with my Alchemist. Quick Alchemy is mainly useful to grab an Alchemical Item you are lacking, which may happen with bombs if you need a specific damage type, but it's not really common. Also, before level 9 you produce a single item out of Quick Alchemy, so it's a small high level issue.
It doesn't even leverage Ranger all that well. Like, all that you're getting out of the ranger side of things when you throw a bomb is the damage boost from precision and the not-terrible proficiency. Basically none of your feats apply. Effectively, for bomb-throwing, a dragon instinct barbarian with raging thrower is strictly better in multiple ways.
I don't get it. The Ranger does nearly the same damage than the Barbarian, has Dexterity as main attribute, ignores the penalty for the first range increment and has a few very interesting feats (Far Shot comes to mind, but a lot of bow oriented feats can be used with bombs). Barbarian has absolutely nothing but the extra damage, which is nice, but far from "strictly better in multiple ways".
That's not really up to the cheese level we should expect of an alchemist/martial dual class who's really trying.
You'll have hard time building a Dual Class Alchemist character that does much more damage than a single class Fighter.
Anyway, if you see some cheese I don't see, you can just put it here.
Alchemist (dual-weapon) seems really good, although admittedly a bit late.
Acid bomb+Sticky Bomb twice is nice.
Also, going to play around with Grippli (Acrobatic) seems to synergies well with Grippli feats.
Quick Bomber the feat, yes. I was talking about Quick Alchemy (Bombs), which this build pretty much skips entirely (or at least severely reduces) by keeping one hand full... and with it all of the additive feats.I have never used Quick Alchemy for Bombs with my Alchemist. Quick Alchemy is mainly useful to grab an Alchemical Item you are lacking, which may happen with bombs if you need a specific damage type, but it's not really common. Also, before level 9 you produce a single item out of Quick Alchemy, so it's a small high level issue.
The point about skipping on quick alchemy (and perpetual) is that you're missing out on all of the additive feats. Admittedly, they're much nicer for perpetual bombs than standard quick alchemy bombs, but if you skip on both, then your'e missing out on those options entirely.
...and yes, other than that, Quick Alchemy (bombs) is mostly to grab for a specific damage type for the enemy you're facing off against.
It doesn't even leverage Ranger all that well. Like, all that you're getting out of the ranger side of things when you throw a bomb is the damage boost from precision and the not-terrible proficiency. Basically none of your feats apply. Effectively, for bomb-throwing, a dragon instinct barbarian with raging thrower is strictly better in multiple ways.I don't get it. The Ranger does nearly the same damage than the Barbarian, has Dexterity as main attribute, ignores the penalty for the first range increment and has a few very interesting feats (Far Shot comes to mind, but a lot of bow oriented feats can be used with bombs). Barbarian has absolutely nothing but the extra damage, which is nice, but far from "strictly better in multiple ways".
Hm.
(spends some time digging)
So, first I have to admit that prior to writing this response I was laboring under some incorrect information. In particular, I'd been under the impression that damage bonuses could apply to splash damage. In an attempt to provide arguments in support of that position, I spent some time on careful re-reading of certain sections of the rules, the "damage" section in particular, and I'm now forced to acknowledge that this is not the case. That *does* cut into the value of the "barbarian bomb-thrower" dual-class concept a fair bit.
Also, in the ranger's defense, I have to admit that "proficiency in bombs and key ability dex" is... actually kind of rare. The only other two classes that have it are the swashbuckler (who has literally nothing else to offer in terms of bomb-throwing) and the fighter (who we're trying to avoid because it's simply too easy). So that's a thing, especially for levels 1-4 and 10-14. It's also the case that the ranger can get the critical specialization effect (expanded splash radius) when targeting chosen prey, and the barbarian cannot.
Weapon Specialization is functionally identical.
Technically, the barbarian gets some potentially shiny stuff out of Brutal Critical and the Devastator class feature, but that's all lvl 18+, so I barely count it. Devastator is 20, and only applies to physical damage anyway.
Damage Boost Feature:
Barbarian: Pick a draconic element at chargen. Deal +4 damage of that element at level 1, 8 at level 7, and 16 at level 15. Technically, if the target is utterly immune to your chosen damage type, you can instead choose to deal +2 of whatever damage your base attack is dealing.
Ranger: when targeting your hunter prey, the first tiem you hit them in a round, deal +1d8 damage at level 1, +2d8 at 11, and +3d8 at 19. (at level 17, you start to get lesser damage bonuses to follow-on strikes also against your target)
Pertinent Feats:
Ranger:
- Far Shot (4): double range increments
- Deadly Aim (8): deal a decent chunk of extra damage vs prey in return for taking a penalty to hit
- Penetrating shot(10): Silly, but it works. 2 action. Target chosen prey and a creature that is giving cover to chosen prey. Hit them both with the same attack.
- Distracting Shot (12): hunted prey is flat-footed if you either crit or hit twice with ranged weapons
- Greater Distracting Shot(16): that, but more.
- Legendary Shot (20): Ignore ridiculous amoutns of range penalty.
Barbarian:
- Raging Thrower (1): a feat tax to get into this at all.
- Penetrating Projectile (16): Two actions. Make an attack with a single projectile against everyone in a 30-foot line. Basically Penetrating Shot++.
- Brutal Critical (18): On a crit, add an extra damage die, and deal persistent bleed equal to two damage dice.
/************/
Advantages of the ranger:
The ranger wins the "Feat support" game, especially for up to level 15. The feats aren't overwhelming, and a number of them are partially redundant with alchemist feats, but they're there. From levels 1-7 and 11-15, they get slightly more extra damage out of their damage feature (on the first hit, against their hunted target) and for levels 1-4, 10-14, and 20 they have +1 to hit from the dex advantage.
Advantages of the barbarian:
- levels 8-10 and 15+, the barbarian gets a notable advantage to its damage boost. Barbarian doesn't need to keep spending actions to adjust hunt prey, and can trigger their damage boost more than once per round. This is useful in general, and at lvl 7+ (and especially 9+ with double brew) this makes perpetual bombs much more viable as an option. Given the degree to which bomb damage is about persistent damage and splash damage, the ability to pick your targets in the moment has some value even beyond the "Well, my last target is down. Time to pay the action tax" that ranger has in general.
The barbarian version of this is likely going to want to invest in Dual-Weapon Warrior archetype, for what it's worth.
Overall conclusion:
The Ranger version has a significantly stronger early game, particularly if you're maxxing out at or before level 7. Middle levels, it looks like it goes back and forth, and I suspect that a lot of it is going to depend on whether you tend to face a lot of little critters or fewer, more powerful enemies. Higher levels, I'm pretty sure that the barbarian gets it. That's vague estimates, though. Regardless, it's a lot closer than I'd realized before I started digging into things... and, admittedly, rather less inspiring overall.
That's not really up to the cheese level we should expect of an alchemist/martial dual class who's really trying.You'll have hard time building a Dual Class Alchemist character that does much more damage than a single class Fighter.
Anyway, if you see some cheese I don't see, you can just put it here.
I'll admit, I haven't run the tofu numbers, but "raw damage to a single target" isn't the only thin that the bombs are doing anyway. Bombs are working the ongoing damage, the splash damage, and the debilitations right along with the straightforward damage... especially once you fit in the alchemist feats.
I'll admit, I haven't run the tofu numbers
I have, for a single class character. It's a viable build. The numbers are quite good damage wise, with some nice bonuses (damage choice, splash) but it's expensive in terms of feats.
With Double Class, it's mostly easier to build but not really more efficient. A Ranger/Fighter/Barbarian with Alchemist Dedication and Demolitionist will grab all the most important feats at similar levels. The only drawbacks are that you'll start with an extremely low number of reagents and that your at-will bombs will lag behind during most of your career (but you can buy/craft a few at level bombs for the tough fights so it's not that much of an issue).Also, in my opinion, you value far too much Persistent damage and Additives. Persistent damage is extremely random. Unless you face a single boss you can't really count on it as it often doesn't last much (either because the enemy makes the flat check or because the enemy dies quickly). I personally value it 1 for 1 compared to normal damage but I sometimes wonder if it's not worse than normal damage.
And Additives are far from incredible. Debilitating Bombs are just plain bad, it's better to grab a Bird Animal Companion. Far better actually. And Sticky Bomb is not bad, but the cost of Quick Alchemy (both in actions and reagents) makes it far from incredible.
Lag behind? If you don't have alchemist base class, there's no such thing as at-will bombs. I mean, I'd love to be wrong on this, but as far as I'm aware, perpetual infusions hard-requires the alchemist base class.
As far as important feats...
- Quick Bomber (1) -> Alchemist Archetype (4)
- Far Lobber (1) -> Alchemist Archetype (4)
- Calculated splash (4) -> Demolitionist (6)
- Directional Bombs (6) -> Demolitionist (8)
- Debilitating Bomb (6) -> Alchemist Archetype (12)
- Perpetual Breadth (8) -> N/A
- Sticky Bomb (8) -> Alchemist Archetype (16)
- Expanded Splash (10) -> Demolitionist (12)
- Greater Debilitating Bomb (10) -> Alchemist Archetype (20)
- Uncanny Bombs (12) -> N/A
- True Debilitating Bomb (14) -> N/A
...and I'll leave out the 16-20 stuff, because I've yet to actually be in a campaign of *anything* that managed to keep going that high. I recognize that others have, but... let's say it's not a thing I focus on.
Then there's the fact that advanced alchemy from the alchemist dedication is both short on infusions and lagging behind a fair bit on levels... and you only ever create one thing per reagent instead of the 2 or 3 that the alchemist eventually gets, and you lose out on the 5 feet of extra splash radius at level 13, and the bomb DC doesn't track with your class DC, for those bombs that have saves. You lose a *lot* by trying to make do on archetypes, even with FA.
You're correct that standard Debilitating Bomb is pretty weak. True Debilitating Bomb, though, is fairly respectable, especially if you're tossing multiple bombs a round.
Basically, the bomber alchemist is at base terrible combat class that claws its way back to shining mediocrity by inches. If you're thinking that a single-class non-alchemist can largely match an alchemist dual-class as a bomber, then you're ignoring a bunch of those inches... and if your context for "dual class bomber" is "start with a bomb-using fighter/ranger, then juice it up a bit by making the alchemist side a full class" then yeah, it's not going to look like it brings as much to the table.
Lag behind? If you don't have alchemist base class, there's no such thing as at-will bombs.
By at-will bombs, I mean the ones you produce with Advanced Alchemy, in opposition to the ones you buy/craft. Perpetual Bombs are not part of any optimized build to me.
Also, you take far too many feats to make bombs viable. You just need Quick Bomber, Calculated and Expanded Splash and you're a Bomber. But you also need the Dedication and Expert/Master Alchemy for a total of 6 feats. Add in Far Shot for the range doubling and you have a properly built character.
The rest of the feats you speak about are at best situational.
So your at-will bombs (as in the ones you get every day for free) will lag behind but you can compensate with a few bought/crafted ones for the tough fights. As such, during tough fights, you have nearly the dual class efficiency when it comes to bombs.
and you only ever create one thing per reagent instead of the 2
Unless I have missed something, you create 2 items per batches. So you only lose your Intelligence modifier in Reagents, which is annoying at low level but quickly becomes inconsequential.
Overall, compared to the Dual Class version, you get a few feats later and you lose on the level of Advanced Alchemy, which forces you to invest on extra bombs for tough fights (which is fine for a build who doesn't need a weapon per se). You also lose the extra splash at level 13.
If you play with Free Archetype (because it's quite a costly build in terms of feats) you should have roughly the Dual Class efficiency once you're out of the very first levels.
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Lag behind? If you don't have alchemist base class, there's no such thing as at-will bombs.By at-will bombs, I mean the ones you produce with Advanced Alchemy, in opposition to the ones you buy/craft. Perpetual Bombs are not part of any optimized build to me.
"at-will" is very much not a term I'd ever apply to a daily resource.
...and part of the point that I'm making is that I think you're wrong on that.
Also, you take far too many feats to make bombs viable. You just need Quick Bomber, Calculated and Expanded Splash and you're a Bomber. But you also need the Dedication and Expert/Master Alchemy for a total of 6 feats. Add in Far Shot for the range doubling and you have a properly built character.
The rest of the feats you speak about are at best situational.So your at-will bombs (as in the ones you get every day for free) will lag behind but you can compensate with a few bought/crafted ones for the tough fights. As such, during tough fights, you have nearly the dual class efficiency when it comes to bombs.
and you only ever create one thing per reagent instead of the 2Unless I have missed something, you create 2 items per batches. So you only lose your Intelligence modifier in Reagents, which is annoying at low level but quickly becomes inconsequential.
Overall, compared to the Dual Class version, you get a few feats later and you lose on the level of Advanced Alchemy, which forces you to invest on extra bombs for tough fights (which is fine for a build who doesn't need a weapon per se). You also lose the extra splash at level 13.
If you play with Free Archetype (because it's quite a costly build in terms of feats) you should have roughly the Dual Class efficiency once you're out of the very first levels.
You're correct that the archetype can make two per batch. That was my error. So... let's talk about "out of the very first levels", then.
like, you say you just need Quick Bomber, Calculated, and Expanded Splash. So that's...
2: Alchemist archetype
4: Quick Bomber
6: Expert Alchemy
8: Demolitionist Archetype
10: Calculated Splash
12: Expanded Splash
14: Master Alchemy
so you have everything in place by level 14. Let's talk level 14, then.
Actually, first we should talk bomb levels. the bomb level breakpoints are 1, 3, 11, and 17. That's when the alchemist gets upgrades with infused reagents, and when you get upgrades by spending money.
lvl 1: alchemist gets level 1 bombs here. You can pay for them.
lvl 2: alchemist dedication. You get level 1 infused bombs here.
lvl 3: alchemist gets level 3 bombs here. You can pay for them.
lvl 6: expert alchemy feat. You get level 3 infused bombs here.
lvl 7: alchemist gets level 1 perpetual bombs here.
lvl 11: alchemist gets level 11 bombs here. You can pay for them. alchemist gets level 3 perpetual bombs.
lvl 16: you get level 11 infused bombs here.
lvl 17: alchemist gets level 17 bombs. You can craft them. Alchemist gets level 11 perpetual bombs.
So... the thing that I notice here is that starting at level 11, what the alchemist gets for perpetual bombs and what the archetype gets for infused bombs are... very similar. Now, quick bomber says that if you're only launching one, then the pre-made bombs are at least more action efficient. If you want to reach into Dual Weapon Warrior skills, though, then you pretty much have to start with both hands full fo bombs, which makes that whole thing much less one-sided.
Now. Let's talk level 14.
- your WBL is 9,300 lump sum. Generally it's messier than that, but if we're talking tofu numbers, it's at least a vague approximation of what resources you can throw around.
Alchemist goggles: 1,400 gp. +2 item bonus to attack rolls and alchemical crafting. Ignore lesser cover when making strikes with alchemical bombs. 7,900 remaining.
You're throwing around level 3 infused bombs, and level 11 crafted/bought bombs. Those crafted/bought bombs are 250 gp each, which means that if you get into a big important fight and threw four of them, you've just burned a bit over 10% of your WBL. That's a not entirely trivial cost. You have 28 of the level 3 bombs to throw around. Admittedly, if bombs are the only thing you're making (or almost the only thing), then you're not going to run out unless it's a marathon day.
You've had two ability boosts, so your int is 18.
We'll use alchemist's fire as a benchmark.
Your range is 40 (with a bit of help from Ranger, and your splash radius is 10. You have +2 to hit.
- infused: 2d8 fire, 2 persistent, +6 splash
- bought: 3d8 fire, 3 persistent, +7 splash
Your Bow and Arrow (+2 greater striking, 2000gp) plus, say, flaming and frost (another 1000gp) (4900 remaining) has a profile of
- +2 to hit, range 200 (again, you took a Ranger feat)
- damage: 3d8+2d6(1d6 fire, 1d6 ice) plus various things on a crit
The bow is very comparable to your bought bombs against a single targets (much longer range, no persistent damage, no damage on miss, better effects on crit) but starts to lose out once the splash damage comes into play... as long as you can keep that splash damage party-friendly. Your infused bombs need to catch at least one other foe in the splash or leverage vulnerabilities just to get back up to par. I suppose it might also be worthwhile if the foe was behind lesser cover.
Now let's talk what you get at 14 as a dual-class alchemist.
features:
- gets 3-per rather than 2-per on daily prep infusions.
- gets 2-per on quick alchemy and perpetual alchemy
- can limit splash damage to only primary target
- another 5 feet of splash radius
Feats:
1: Quick Bomber
2: Far Lobber
4: Calculated Splash
6: Directional Bombs
8: Sticky Bomb
10: Expanded Splash
12: Uncanny Bombs
14: Perpetual Breadth
Alternate feats:
1: Quick Bomber
2: Far Lobber
4: Calculated Splash
6: Debilitating Bomb
8: Sticky Bomb
10: Expanded Splash
12: Greater Debilitating Bomb
14: True Debilitating Bomb
In the first case, we get more control of bomb splash, we get a significant boost to range plus some assistance against cover/concealment, and we get a third perpetual damage type. In the second case, we get access to True Debilitating Bomb. We get the same range boost as Far Shot in-house regardless. We get sticky bombs regardless.
It might also make sense in the second case to dump sticky in favor of either perpetual breadth or directional bombs, depending. still, for the moment we're going to talk about that first option.
- We'll assume we have the goggles, because duh. (7,900 remaining)
- (Note: if you're willing to take the pain, you can brew quicksilver elixir instead of the goggles, and at one hour per you can easily brew enough to get through the day. That'll give you an extra +1 to hit, but leave you a lot less healthy.)
+2 to hit (or +3 with quicksilver), range 60, ignore light cover, +1 to hit vs heavy cover, ignore flat check vs concealment, splash damage is radius 15 or blast 15 or only primary target.
- perpetual alchemy #1: 2d8 fire, 8 persistent, +6 splash (sticky)
- perpetual alchemy #2: 2d8 fire, 2 persistent, +6 splash
- daily prep: 3d8 fire, 3 persistent, +7 splash
So... assuming no vulnerabilities or resistances, and assuming only one round of persistent damage, the first perpetual bomb here is only *slightly* worse than the daily prep bomb. (avg .5 less damage on hit, 1 less damage on miss.) The daily prep bomb here is roughly equivalent to the paid-for bomb up above, except that it has better range and much more control over its splash area (larger or blast or single-target). If the persistent damage lingers longer than a single round, the sticky bomb could be doing a fair bit more... and with three different damage types, you can easily enough rotate to keep the persistent damage from overwriting.
Also, as normal, the alchemist dual-class can hand out mutagens and elixirs to all their friends, have some healing elixirs on the side, and so forth - generally a tier higher than what the archetype alchemist has on offer.
/*********/
My personal Conclusions:
- I don't think that the archetype alchemist bomber is actually worth it. Like, that's a *lot* of feats to spend, and a not trivial amount of money, to get to the point where you can sometimes be worth using instead of a bow... and that's before any of the bow feats are really taken into account. In general, I would not suggest trying to play a bomber by archetyping in.
- The combat advantages of Alchemist/Ranger bomber over standard Ranger-with-a-bow are not huge, but they're there. In some cases (you're up against a whole bunch of dinks, or something that has specific resistances/vulnerabilities that you can target/avoid, or maybe you're just missing a lot), they can be pretty significant.
I'll get into dual weapon warrior and how it fits in later.
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I want to just thank you two for this Alchemist conversation.
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So, a couple of things on the Alchemist discussion:
Interestingly enough, Sanityfaerie, your first list of Alchemist Feats is almost what I have planned for my (single-class) Bomber. I've only gotten to 10th as yet. (I took Far Lobber @ 1st, Revivifying Mutagen @ 2nd, and used Halfling's Cultural Adaptability to get Quick Bomber @ 5th.)
First point: If you take Perpetual Breadth and choose your own Research Field instead of another one, you get *two* new Perpetual Infusions items, not one. I have Acid Flasks and Bottled Lightning as my Perpetuals; at 14th I intend to take Alchemist Fire & Frost Vials. So, that will be four energy types.
Second Point: If you're Int 20 (which a dual-class Bomber should be at L14) you will be doing Bomb Tier + Int modifier for Splash, which will usually be 7 pts for a Moderate Bomb (like your Perpetuals.)
So, if you're using Perpetual Infusions Alchemist Fire, it'll be 2d8 + 7 Splash + 2 Weapon Specialization and then 2 HP Persistent Fire damage. If you're an Alchemist.
The dual-class Precision Ranger/Alchemist Bomber would be doing 2d8 + 3 Weapon Specialization + 2d8 Precision (on the first Bomb) + 7 Splash + 2 Persistent.
If it's Sticky (and do I ever love Sticky), our R/A will be doing 2d8 + 3 Weapon Specialization + 2d8 Precision + 7 Splash + 9 Persistent.
A Greater Alchemist's Fire (L11) would be 3d8 + 3 WS + 2d8 Pre + 8 Splash + 3 Persistent.
Min Damage for the Mod Sticky (after Persistent): 23 HP
Min Damage for the Greater (after Persistent): 19 HP
Average Damage for the Mod Sticky 37 HP
Average Damage for the Greater: 36 HP
Max Damage for Mod Sticky: 51 HP
Max Damage for the Greater: 54 HP
So, the only places that the Moderate Sticky lags are a) Action Economy (two actions to one) and b) Max Damage, by 3 points.
Personally, I like the tradeoff. I'll take a Min Damage 4 greater over a Max Damage 3 greater any day. (I've had some horrible luck with die rolls at times.)
Where there's no contest is if the Persistent Fire lasts a 2nd Round (which it will, 70% of the time.) 3 HP compared to 9 HP.
In theory (highly, highly unlikely, but man, it would be fun to see) a 14th Level Bomber built like this could have the unlucky target taking 2 d6 +7 Acid plus 9 Fire plus 7 each of Cold and Electricity after their turn on Round 4. (IE, 2d6+30 damage).
Third Point: This person should *absolutely* be using Quicksilver. They're a 10HP Class acting as a Ranged Striker. 8HP per level is *not* going to impact their survival rates, particularly with Master Fortitude (which goes to Expert) and the Juggernaut class feature. They're going to have an insane Range Increment on their Bombs... might as well have 40-45' of Movement to go with it (50' if you go Nimble Elf.) Plus, the +3 Item Bonus to Reflex Saves will go very nicely with Evasion, and even better with Improved Evasion next level.
Fourth Point: If you've gone Uncanny Bombs, forget the Alchemist Goggles. Completely redundant. Uncanny Bombs reduces *any* cover bonus by -1, not just Light Cover. And Quicksilver is much, much better.
Dual-Weapon Warrior: Well, I'll just say that if you aren't going Dual Returning Runes on non-Consumable Thrown Weapons, using Double Brew (L9) with Perpetual Infusions Bombs is a decent way to go. Or somehow squeeze an Alchemical Familiar into the Build to use Valet.
Double Brew plus double slice plus sticky bombs for the win!
Alas, you can only Sticky one Bomb per Round. The Feat has a Frequency.
If it were me playing this, I'd be inclined to Double Brew a Sticky Alchemist Fire and a Bottled Lightning. Odds are decent of a hit with the second Bomb, and Flat-Footed is always a nice condition to inflict.
Fingers crossed that the treasure vault alchemist fixes are gonna be good.
I'm sure the alchemical items will be good, but I'm also sure how most people feel about the class will remain the same.
What the playerbase seem to want out of the Alchemist cannot be solved with items, but with a class archetype or a whole redesign.
I'm sure the alchemical items will be good, but I'm also sure how most people feel about the class will remain the same.
Depends really. Some of the issues are systemic, but if the flamethrowers give a viable combat option that isn't completely upstaged by handing it off to someone else. If mutagenists get some decent variety and support for their capabilities (especially alternatives to bestial). If general support options become more robust, or delivery systems get improved...
Point is there's a lot of ways new content could address various grievances people have.
I heard that chirurgeon was getting changed at least. Not sure how specifically though.
Well yeah, but that was supposed to be with CRB errata, and then the errata came and went and as far as I know Paizo has not said a word about it since.
"at-will" is very much not a term I'd ever apply to a daily resource.
I haven't found a better term. But I'll replace it with anything you suggest.
There's a lot of things I disagree with in your theorycrafting:
like, you say you just need Quick Bomber, Calculated, and Expanded Splash. So that's...
2: Alchemist archetype
4: Quick Bomber
6: Expert Alchemy
8: Demolitionist Archetype
10: Calculated Splash
12: Expanded Splash
14: Master Alchemyso you have everything in place by level 14. Let's talk level 14, then.
As I've said, this build is archetype feat hungry. I would hesitate to play it without FA. And considering how FA is common, I prefer to compare FA to Dual Class as you should have easy time finding a game allowing it.
With FA, the build would be:
1: Hunted Shot
2: Alchemist archetype, Animal Companion (or Quick Draw retrained to Animal Companion at level 4)
4: Far Shot, Quick Bomber (slightly worse than Quick Draw but consumes a mandatory Archetype feat)
6: Expert Alchemy, Mature Animal Companion
8: Demolitionist Archetype, Calculated Splash
10: Specialized Animal Companion
12: Expanded Splash, Master Alchemy
This build is closer to your Dual Class build. There's still a 2 level delay because most feats are available 2 levels later, but that's not overwhelmingly annoying.
your WBL is 9,300 lump sum
The WBL considers that you spend half of your money on consumables (from the treasure per level table, you are supposed to earn 19,696.25 from level 1 to 13, so twice more than the WBL). So if you take that into account, you are supposed to gain 9,125 GPs during level 14 and as such spend 4,562.5 of them in consumables: That's 18 bombs. I think it should be enough for your needs.
From my experience, you have a lot of money in PF2. It's true that buying at level bombs the level you get them is hard. But 3 levels later, they are quite cheap.Now. Let's talk level 14.
Why not, but the comparison can be done whatever the level you want.
- can limit splash damage to only primary target
That's useless since the release of Backfire Mantles.
6: Directional Bombs
Useless as soon as you get 10-ft splash.
6: Debilitating Bomb
Bird Animal Companion is strictly better. That's why I've included it in my build.
- gets 2-per on quick alchemy and perpetual alchemy
Not really a thing. Maybe my main gripe to your theorycrafting: Using Double Brew asks for a lot of conditions:
- Level 9- 3-action sequence (so no need to move, Hunt Prey or whatever)
On the other hand, having a bow helps you a lot during all the rounds where you have a limited number of actions. With one action, Hunted Shot is vastly better than using Bombs. Even with 2 actions, you can choose to use a Bomb and then Hunted Shot for nice results (the Bow is free, unlike your Bombs). Also, for long ranged combat, the bow is definitely a better idea.
So there's an actual advantage of having a bow at hand that you need to leverage against your perpetual Bombs. Hint: Perpetual Bombs will end up bad, they always do. As your build has access to more Bombs (by being a full Alchemist) and always at level Bombs (without having to pay for them) just forget about Perpetual Bombs.
Like, that's a *lot* of feats to spend, and a not trivial amount of money, to get to the point where you can sometimes be worth using instead of a bow... and that's before any of the bow feats are really taken into account.
Welcome to PF2. This build is on par with a bow Ranger, and that's the good thing about PF2.
Still, saying that it doesn't have assets against a Bow ranger is wrong. The main drawback of bows are resistances. A simple resistance to Piercing (a common one on top of it) really hampers archers. Also, you can abuse weaknesses with Bombs. And you can even choose to debuff. So it's a different build than a Bow Ranger, but not a worse one.In general, I would not suggest trying to play a bomber by archetyping in.
It depends on the level you play. At low level, the Bomber Alchemist is the best bomber (mostly because of the reagent issue). But at level 13, it is left behind by all the Fighter/Barbarian/Ranger bombers (mostly because of the accuracy issue). I personally prefer to have a slow startup for a character than to have a bad ending (knowing that my character will become worse and worse the more I level is a good reason to switch for me) so I'd play this build over a Bomber Alchemist anytime.
My personal Conclusions:
Mine: Obviously, you'll get a better build with Dual Class than with FA. But the difference in power is not really significant (compared to other cheated Dual Class builds like Fighter/Barbarian). It's not really a build that shines with Dual Class, it's a build that shines with FA.
Also, I think you'll have easier time finding an FA game than a Dual Class one. So it's really a build one can play, not a theoretical build that asks for the most liberal optional rule in the game.