paizo.com Recent Posts in Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forpaizo.com Recent Posts in Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good for2022-12-17T02:57:57Z2022-12-17T02:57:57ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forshawnzy1224https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1492023-06-16T22:12:14Z2023-06-16T22:12:14Z<p>So I like the concept of a giant instinct barbarian and a battle mystery Oricle. It has divine magic, most Hp in game, fast healing, and stupid damage. Also the flavor seems fun to, a warrior that forever smells of smoke and blood and can always hear the sounds of battle. So he rages from time to time, I think it sounds like ptsd to me.</p>So I like the concept of a giant instinct barbarian and a battle mystery Oricle. It has divine magic, most Hp in game, fast healing, and stupid damage. Also the flavor seems fun to, a warrior that forever smells of smoke and blood and can always hear the sounds of battle. So he rages from time to time, I think it sounds like ptsd to me.shawnzy12242023-06-16T22:12:14ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forDeriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1482023-05-06T21:41:00Z2023-05-06T21:41:00Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Please, guys, could we avoid calling Math "white-room"?
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The model we build our math on can be white-roomy, but the math itself is just telling us what we should expect by taking luck aside.</p>
<p>I agree that nominal situations are hard to define, but PF2 is strongly supported by a mathematical model. As a matter of fact, 70% of monsters have high AC. So comparing damage against high AC is not that white-roomy.</p>
<p>And Citricking's tool allows you to play with numbers (monster's ones, or yours) so it gives in general a lot more information than what you could get by hand (well, you can get them by hand but it takes ages).
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I'm fine if you tell me that you don't want to use the tool. But I don't think there's much of a drawback in using it once you know how it works.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>My Alchemist's version of "Weapons Out" is to have a flask of Mutagen in hand. </blockquote>And mine is to have an Elixir of Life in hand. That's why I say it costs actions, either directly (by drinking it) or indirectly by adding actions to my uses of Elixirs of Life. So, overall, it's between 1 and 2 actions to use it. That's not negligible, especially because you have to drink it during the first round, which is the most action intensive round of the fight. </blockquote><p>I don't know. It is white room. There are so many variables.
<p>When I was tracking damage, even something like initiative could decide who did the most damage. If you went first or higher in the order, you got to hit the creature and kill it before the other PCs even had a chance to act. So your damage appeared higher over the course of battles by virtue of winning initiative more often.</p>
<p>Then you have critical hits and critical failed saves. Then different types of spells. Then ranged versus melee which can affect number of actions you can dedicate to attacking, then abilities like Hunt Prey which action tax the ranger to do their damage. It can also come down what a creature's resistance is too and what type of runes you have. </p>
<p>A lot of variables. Ctricking's tool gives you white room math against a particular AC without many of the variables you deal with in game.</p>SuperBidi wrote:Please, guys, could we avoid calling Math "white-room"?
The model we build our math on can be white-roomy, but the math itself is just telling us what we should expect by taking luck aside.I agree that nominal situations are hard to define, but PF2 is strongly supported by a mathematical model. As a matter of fact, 70% of monsters have high AC. So comparing damage against high AC is not that white-roomy.
And Citricking's tool allows you to play with numbers (monster's ones,...Deriven Firelion (alias of Maddigan)2023-05-06T21:41:00ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1472023-05-06T22:37:31Z2022-12-27T11:01:50Z<p>Please, guys, could we avoid calling Math "white-room"?
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The model we build our math on can be white-roomy, but the math itself is just telling us what we should expect by taking luck aside.</p>
<p>I agree that nominal situations are hard to define, but PF2 is strongly supported by a mathematical model. As a matter of fact, 70% of monsters have high AC. So comparing damage against high AC is not that white-roomy.</p>
<p>And Citricking's tool allows you to play with numbers (monster's ones, or yours) so it gives in general a lot more information than what you could get by hand (well, you can get them by hand but it takes ages).
<br />
I'm fine if you tell me that you don't want to use the tool. But I don't think there's much of a drawback in using it once you know how it works.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>My Alchemist's version of "Weapons Out" is to have a flask of Mutagen in hand. </blockquote><p>And mine is to have an Elixir of Life in hand. That's why I say it costs actions, either directly (by drinking it) or indirectly by adding actions to my uses of Elixirs of Life. So, overall, it's between 1 and 2 actions to use it. That's not negligible, especially because you have to drink it during the first round, which is the most action intensive round of the fight.Please, guys, could we avoid calling Math "white-room"?
The model we build our math on can be white-roomy, but the math itself is just telling us what we should expect by taking luck aside.
I agree that nominal situations are hard to define, but PF2 is strongly supported by a mathematical model. As a matter of fact, 70% of monsters have high AC. So comparing damage against high AC is not that white-roomy.
And Citricking's tool allows you to play with numbers (monster's ones, or yours) so it...SuperBidi2022-12-27T11:01:50ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forottdmkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1462022-12-26T06:31:03Z2022-12-26T06:31:03Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>I don't use Quicksilver. I find the actions to take it are not worth the bonus. And then you have to deal with the hit point loss (I'm, surprisingly, very often the medic of my parties despite being just Trained in Medicine, so I avoid dealing with HP loss too much).</blockquote><p>My Alchemist's version of "Weapons Out" is to have a flask of Mutagen in hand. That way, it's one Action at the start of the fight and done. As for the HP loss... Yeah, it can be annoying, but it's manageable. My Bomber is a Hillock Halfling... They may be the best there is at healing up between fights. But if you take Revivifying Mutagen (mostly for the fantastic ability to end a Mutagen early) and can spare a couple of Batches for an Elixir of Life or four, it's fairly trivial. (I generally don't bother because a 10 minute Treat Wounds is almost guaranteed to fix my Bomber up.)
<p>On the topic of Citricking's tool: I'm not a fan, because it is perhaps the epitome of White Room mathematics. The math behind it is based on an infinite number of rounds per level spent performing the combat routine being performed, and the thing is, it's never going to work out that way. If my Bomber makes 20 Strikes against an at-level high AC opponent, he is never going to evenly Critical Miss once, miss 8 times, hit 10 times and Critical Hit once. The game is streakier than that.</p>
<p>I find it much more interesting to look at what happens when you actually hit. A simple hit (on a first Strike) is usually the most common at 50% of the possible outcomes.</p>SuperBidi wrote:I don't use Quicksilver. I find the actions to take it are not worth the bonus. And then you have to deal with the hit point loss (I'm, surprisingly, very often the medic of my parties despite being just Trained in Medicine, so I avoid dealing with HP loss too much).
My Alchemist's version of "Weapons Out" is to have a flask of Mutagen in hand. That way, it's one Action at the start of the fight and done. As for the HP loss... Yeah, it can be annoying, but it's manageable. My...ottdmk2022-12-26T06:31:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSanityfaeriehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1452022-12-25T23:23:21Z2022-12-25T23:13:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>If you are not already familiar with Citricking's tool, you should really get used to it. The learning curve is not that steep and after that you really model whatever you want with ease. The graphs I made took me ten minutes to do despite the absolute complexity of the attack sequences we are comparing. Doing with a pen and paper would take ages.</blockquote><p>Yeah... my problem is that the stuff that comes out of that is •very• white-room. You're <i>literally</i> boiling everything down to a single number. I'm not going to pretend that that's not useful (it is) but it makes it notably harder to consider other aspects (like, say, "how does this compare once you start getting people into the blast radius?") or notice other important implications (like, how much of the damage of a perpetual bomb is in the splash damage, and, by extension, how little it cares about either missing or critting).
<p>Prior to working through the math on it, for example, I'd always thought of the splash damage as this little nice-to-have on top of things that would maybe sort of matter if you were up against a vulnerability you could trigger, but it's actually a pretty hefty chunk of the total overall damage... which means that, if you can get backfire mantles (again, thank you SuperBidi) for everyone, then the splash area expansions you get at 10 and 13 are a really big deal... and adding friendlies to the battlefield who <i>can't</i> get appropriate resistance can reduce your effectiveness significantly. It also makes high-MAP bomb strikes (if you can find ways to throw them) worth more than you might expect, because you can deal out semi-decent damage on anything better than a crit-fail. That's the sort of stuff I wouldn't ever have noticed using Citricking's tool... and finding out stuff like that is a lot of the reason I run these analyses.</p>SuperBidi wrote:If you are not already familiar with Citricking's tool, you should really get used to it. The learning curve is not that steep and after that you really model whatever you want with ease. The graphs I made took me ten minutes to do despite the absolute complexity of the attack sequences we are comparing. Doing with a pen and paper would take ages.
Yeah... my problem is that the stuff that comes out of that is *very* white-room. You're literally boiling everything down to a...Sanityfaerie2022-12-25T23:13:55ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1442022-12-25T14:24:33Z2022-12-25T14:24:33Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>It was six Alchemist's Fires (two batches), 3 Frost Vials (1 Batch) 2 Bottled Lightning, 1 Crystal Shards, 1 Ghost Charge, 1 Alignment Ampoule and 1 Dread Ampoule. 15 Bombs, 5 Batches total.</blockquote><p>Man, you made me realize I never really read Field Discovery. As I play a Chirurgeon, I can only make Elixirs of Life, so I never thought much about the other Research Fields. I never realized it was making the rules more lax about what you could craft. So, sorry, it's on me, your numbers were quite fine.
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I use slightly more batches on Bombs but I produce less of them each time.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>It's an old, old prejudice of mine dating back to my D&D days thirty years ago. It is completely illogical but it's part of how I approach RPGs and it's baked into me at this point.</blockquote><p>I definitely get it, I had to fight it (and that's why I play my Alchemist only within my gaming group and not with strangers). I personally love Poison, it sometimes mess up so much with the monsters (I managed to poison a Dragon Turtle once, for 2 rounds, lots of laugh, and in another game we had our archer making a ranged duel with an enemy archer, with the poisoned arrows making the enemy Flat-Footed and Clumsy... it was an easy win for our archer).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>Third, I don't usually AA Elixirs of Life.</blockquote><p>Without the Familiar, it's unusable. But with it, it's very nice. A round of Bomb + Elixir of Life is basic and actually quite satisfying.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Finally: I have a conversation with my party, whosoever they may be, at the start of every Scenario. I mention I'm playing an Alchemist, I ask if anyone has any Alchemical Items they'd like to have access to. Most of the time, there isn't. Sometimes folks will ask what I would suggest, so I make suggestions. Again, most of the time, after my suggestions there are no takers.</p>
<p>If there •are• takers, I'm happy to oblige. PF2e is a team sport and I'm happy to be a team player. (There is a reason my 2nd Perpetual is Bottled Lightning.) Most of the time though, nope. Which is fine. Even when the only user is myself, there's always more uses for my Reagents than there are Batches.</blockquote><p>I'm a bit more direct in my approach. If you ask people, there's never anything satisfying to them. Still, besides Poison, I've only managed to fill the Monk hands with Elixirs of Life (and we really love to play together as the Monk becomes then a healer which is super handy and once even saved some dying NPCs). But yeah, I got the same experience: There's not much help you can provide in basic situations. It's better to react to situations and provide your fellow teamplayers with what they need during combat.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote>Secondly, I appear to be a bigger fan of Elixirs than you are, and definitely a bigger fan of Mutagens. You've stated that you don't bother with Mutagens, for example, until 11th level. I can't even imagine what playing my Alchemist would be like without Quicksilver, and I've used most other Mutagens at one time or another in Society play. Mostly Cognitive and Silvertongue though... those have come up a lot.</blockquote><p>I've recently started to keep a spot for Quick Alchemy, that I often use for Mutagens. But it's more because I haven't other better opportunities than because I really like them.
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At level 11, I think the skill bonuses get really high with a duration you can use. But before... it's hard to use.
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I don't use Quicksilver. I find the actions to take it are not worth the bonus. And then you have to deal with the hit point loss (I'm, surprisingly, very often the medic of my parties despite being just Trained in Medicine, so I avoid dealing with HP loss too much).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>You asserted that a trident strike was simple better than a perpetual bomb strike without additives... so that's the numbers that I ran. It's true that I did count splash damage to secondary targets as equivalent to primary damage, but I also didn't include the splash damage on miss on the one side, or the crit on the other (mostly because it makes the math quite a lot more complicated to run by hand).</blockquote><p>If you are not already familiar with Citricking's tool, you should really get used to it. The learning curve is not that steep and after that you really model whatever you want with ease. The graphs I made took me ten minutes to do despite the absolute complexity of the attack sequences we are comparing. Doing with a pen and paper would take ages.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>I'm also hearing that you're heavily focused in on effectiveness prior to (or at least no later than) level 10.</blockquote><p>I really don't think I'm that focused on early levels. Most people don't care about level 15+ abilities as they are used so rarely they don't matter. And when you speak of a build that is getting online at level 9 a lot of people are screaming that its way to late for them. Your Barbarian build is definitely a late game build.ottdmk wrote:It was six Alchemist's Fires (two batches), 3 Frost Vials (1 Batch) 2 Bottled Lightning, 1 Crystal Shards, 1 Ghost Charge, 1 Alignment Ampoule and 1 Dread Ampoule. 15 Bombs, 5 Batches total.
Man, you made me realize I never really read Field Discovery. As I play a Chirurgeon, I can only make Elixirs of Life, so I never thought much about the other Research Fields. I never realized it was making the rules more lax about what you could craft. So, sorry, it's on me, your numbers...SuperBidi2022-12-25T14:24:33ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSanityfaeriehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1432022-12-25T10:52:46Z2022-12-25T10:35:42Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Also, the conclusion to your calculation always seems to be "Perpetual deal as much damage as the Trident if". And having enemies in the splash is not highly common (I'm not level 10 with my Alchemist, so I haven't tried large splash areas). And as I said before if you are in a situation where enemies are clumped together then go for your daily bombs, it's your time to shine.
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And you calculate damage to multiple enemies as having the same value than single target damage, which is not a good measure of multi target damage. In general, I value it at half the value of single target damage. If you do that, your bombs suddenly lose a lot compared to the trident.</blockquote><p>You asserted that a trident strike was simple better than a perpetual bomb strike without additives... so that's the numbers that I ran. It's true that I did count splash damage to secondary targets as equivalent to primary damage, but I also didn't include the splash damage on miss on the one side, or the crit on the other (mostly because it makes the math quite a <i>lot</i> more complicated to run by hand).
<p>I'm also hearing that you're heavily focused in on effectiveness prior to (or at least no later than) level 10. For a primary PFS player, that makes a whole lot of sense. Also, I admit that in the level range you care about, my assessment isn't all that much different than your own. Expanded Splash (10), Uncanny Bombs (12), and the bomber Greater Field Discovery (13) are all really important ingredients for the bomber/martial dual class value proposition... as are sticky bombs at 8 and even double Brew at 9. Before that... well, I'd <i>expected</i> it to be worthwhile, and I discovered over the course of this discussion that it was kind of not.</p>SuperBidi wrote:Also, the conclusion to your calculation always seems to be "Perpetual deal as much damage as the Trident if". And having enemies in the splash is not highly common (I'm not level 10 with my Alchemist, so I haven't tried large splash areas). And as I said before if you are in a situation where enemies are clumped together then go for your daily bombs, it's your time to shine.
And you calculate damage to multiple enemies as having the same value than single target damage,...Sanityfaerie2022-12-25T10:35:42ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forottdmkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1422022-12-24T23:00:28Z2022-12-24T23:00:28Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">ottdmk wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Let's see now... 2 Batches for four Quicksilver? Dead on. After that, for Mutagens I spent a Batch on 2 Cognitive and another on 2 Silvertongue. Recall Knowledge and Social rolls are both really big in PFS. So that's four Batches. Darkvision Elixers, Bravo's Brews and Eagle-Eye Elixers took up another 3.</p>
<p>For Bombs, I went kinda broad. Six Moderate Alchemist's Fires for that up-front damage. 3 Frost Vials. 2 Bottled Lightning (sometimes you really want a BL when there's not time to Quick Alchemy one.) A Crystal Shards, an Alignment Ampoule, a Ghost Charge, a Dread Ampoule and a Tanglefoot Bag to round it off.</p>
<p>Three Batches for Alchemical Rabbits if needed.</blockquote>There's something off with your numbers, especially when you start speaking about bombs. Do you mean 6 batches of Alchemist's Fire, 3 of Frost Vials, etc... or 6 Alchemist's Fire, 3 Frost Vials, 2 Bottled Lightning, etc... Because in the first case your have an abnormally big reagent allocation and in the second case you manage to get 1 or 2 Bombs out of Advanced Alchemy.</blockquote><p>Simple really... I was going from memory and I was in a hurry, so I didn't double-check my count. Going over my notes from that session I didn't actually AA a Tanglefoot Bag.
<p>It was six Alchemist's Fires (two batches), 3 Frost Vials (1 Batch) 2 Bottled Lightning, 1 Crystal Shards, 1 Ghost Charge, 1 Alignment Ampoule and 1 Dread Ampoule. 15 Bombs, 5 Batches total.<div class="messageboard-quotee">Superbidi wrote:</div><blockquote>Also, why so many conditional Bombs? Alignment Ampoile, Crystal Chards, Frost Vials and Tanglefoot Bag are not useful every day. Why don't you just buy a few of them and grab something else with your daily resources?</blockquote>A couple of reasons, really. The mission was pretty vague, so I went with a variety. I mean yeah, you're correct, I could Craft some of those to have on hand... I've been taking that approach with various Elixirs for ages now. But I spent 1 Batch on those 3... and I'm in a position now when I can spend a Batch like that if I want to.<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>I personally use 5-6 reagents on Bombs, and 2 on Elixirs of Life. It allows me to go through an entire adventuring day without issues (that's 4 fights before having to use my crafted bombs, PFS adventuring days nearly never have more than 4 fights).</blockquote><p>Yeah, I've noticed the same thing. It's why I've standardized on four Quicksilvers (2 batches) a day.
<p>There are a few fundamental differences in how I play an Alchemist compared to how you play an Alchemist. Firstly, I don't do poisons. It's an old, old prejudice of mine dating back to my D&D days thirty years ago. It is completely illogical but it's part of how I approach RPGs and it's baked into me at this point. </p>
<p>Secondly, I appear to be a bigger fan of Elixirs than you are, and definitely a bigger fan of Mutagens. You've stated that you don't bother with Mutagens, for example, until 11th level. I can't even imagine what playing my Alchemist would be like without Quicksilver, and I've used most other Mutagens at one time or another in Society play. Mostly Cognitive and Silvertongue though... those have come up a lot.</p>
<p>Third, I don't usually AA Elixirs of Life. It's extremely rare that I've had a need to heal during combat, and outside of combat they're virtually pointless. I keep a few Batches around for Alchemical Rabbits... if I need an Elixir of Life I'll use one of those. I suppose I should consider adding a Batch of L9 EoLs to my growing collection of "just in case" elixirs. </p>
<p>Fourth, I <i>like</i> using my Perpetual Infusions, largely because of Sticky Bomb. Inflicting Persistent Damage is a huge part of the fun for me, and table results have proven very effective. Ideally, I'll open up with a Sticky Lesser Acid Flask, follow up the next round with a Sticky Lesser Bottled Lightning, and then if the flat checks have been kind to me (and not the GM) I'll move on to Alchemist's Fires. Of course, that's if I'm up against something generic where a specific energy type doesn't really matter.</p>
<p>Finally: I have a conversation with my party, whosoever they may be, at the start of every Scenario. I mention I'm playing an Alchemist, I ask if anyone has any Alchemical Items they'd like to have access to. Most of the time, there isn't. Sometimes folks will ask what I would suggest, so I make suggestions. Again, most of the time, after my suggestions there are no takers. </p>
<p>If there •are• takers, I'm happy to oblige. PF2e is a team sport and I'm happy to be a team player. (There is a reason my 2nd Perpetual is Bottled Lightning.) Most of the time though, nope. Which is fine. Even when the only user is myself, there's always more uses for my Reagents than there are Batches.</p>SuperBidi wrote:ottdmk wrote:Let's see now... 2 Batches for four Quicksilver? Dead on. After that, for Mutagens I spent a Batch on 2 Cognitive and another on 2 Silvertongue. Recall Knowledge and Social rolls are both really big in PFS. So that's four Batches. Darkvision Elixers, Bravo's Brews and Eagle-Eye Elixers took up another 3.
For Bombs, I went kinda broad. Six Moderate Alchemist's Fires for that up-front damage. 3 Frost Vials. 2 Bottled Lightning (sometimes you really want a BL when...ottdmk2022-12-24T23:00:28ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good foraobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1412022-12-24T22:43:13Z2022-12-24T22:43:13Z<p>It's appearent how the drawback effects the alchemist. They need hands for items and bombs. But it's a non issue for any standard melee martial.</p>It's appearent how the drawback effects the alchemist. They need hands for items and bombs. But it's a non issue for any standard melee martial.aobst1282022-12-24T22:43:13ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1402022-12-24T21:13:13Z2022-12-24T21:13:13Z<p>That's why I find it bad. It's a flat bonus with no drawback as long as you only do only one thing: Wielding your weapon. It forces specialization in a game that managed to get rid of it.</p>That's why I find it bad. It's a flat bonus with no drawback as long as you only do only one thing: Wielding your weapon. It forces specialization in a game that managed to get rid of it.SuperBidi2022-12-24T21:13:13ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forOnkonkhttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1392022-12-24T21:01:25Z2022-12-24T21:01:25Z<p>I don't think it has no drawback, I've noticed barbarians have a very hard time using items because envision and command are concentrate and interact requires a free hand.</p>
<p>Dc5 is pretty low so the drawback could indeed be too low perhaps but I think you use concentrate more than one thinks.</p>I don't think it has no drawback, I've noticed barbarians have a very hard time using items because envision and command are concentrate and interact requires a free hand.
Dc5 is pretty low so the drawback could indeed be too low perhaps but I think you use concentrate more than one thinks.Onkonk2022-12-24T21:01:25ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1382022-12-24T20:03:51Z2022-12-24T20:03:51Z<p>Yeah, War Blood has no drawback despite giving a massive bonus. Clearly, as of now, a ban. But maybe Paizo wants to revitalize Mutagens. If it's the case, I'm just sad they did it in such an ugly way. I find War Blood Mutagen to be uninspiring, it's just a +1 with the drawback of being unable to do much but keep your weapon at hand when under the effect.</p>Yeah, War Blood has no drawback despite giving a massive bonus. Clearly, as of now, a ban. But maybe Paizo wants to revitalize Mutagens. If it's the case, I'm just sad they did it in such an ugly way. I find War Blood Mutagen to be uninspiring, it's just a +1 with the drawback of being unable to do much but keep your weapon at hand when under the effect.SuperBidi2022-12-24T20:03:51ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good foraobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1372022-12-24T17:19:03Z2022-12-24T17:19:03Z<p>I forgot about war blood. That one's cool. Pretty much negligible penalty.</p>I forgot about war blood. That one's cool. Pretty much negligible penalty.aobst1282022-12-24T17:19:03ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good foraobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1362022-12-24T17:16:49Z2022-12-24T17:16:49Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Thunderdiglett wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Considering we are already narrowing down combat viable mutagens to only 2 shows that they are in fact niche. I didn't talk about quicksilver because it is only really useful on ranged dedicated players. What party composition are we talking about where you can fit in a dedicated archer and an alchemist in without heavily sacrificing on front-line capability or spellcasting? You would likely need a party of 6 to see this be relevant.</p>
<p>The other two examples still run into the problem where their first round needs to be rage & mutagen or stance & mutagen to be effective, still only leaving you with 1 action on your first round. I guess you could hold off on using the mutagen till the 2nd round, but this still further cements the fact that mutagen use is niche. And that is ignoring their penalties. Frankly I would never use bestial mutagen as the penalties are too severe. If I wanted to be a barbarian with a heftier penalty to AC I would have been a giant barbarian, and then I wouldn't have to rage and then use a mutagen.</p>
<p>Maybe a strength monk that didn't also start with a high dex could find value in a drakeheart mutagen, but you are still probably better off starting 18 str 16 dex and then not eating the action penalty every combat AND the -1 to saves.</p>
<p>Lets be honest, mutagens are pretty mediocre if you have to specifically design parties / characters around using them, rather than them just being a boon to your allies across the board. I dont need to play a specific build to benefit from my friends champion reaction. Its just always good. </p>
<p>And even in these specific character builds you are likely making your character worse to benefit from the mutagen in the first place. None of these examples would make me think its better to prepare these mutagens over alchemists other options.</p>
<p>I think if any player would have found good uses for mutagens, it would be Superbidi. A lot of alchemists options just suffer from poor action economy and/or crippling downsides. </blockquote><p>I mentioned good use cases for 4. I just prefaced the ones that give item bonuses to attack. Most barbarians are gonna grab wounded rage to save the action. Your problem with the action cost for buffing is mostly moot on the classes that can have a free hand without trouble. Add free hand fighter to the list too. Any of those would definitely appreciate an alchemist on the team.Thunderdiglett wrote:Considering we are already narrowing down combat viable mutagens to only 2 shows that they are in fact niche. I didn't talk about quicksilver because it is only really useful on ranged dedicated players. What party composition are we talking about where you can fit in a dedicated archer and an alchemist in without heavily sacrificing on front-line capability or spellcasting? You would likely need a party of 6 to see this be relevant.
The other two examples still run into...aobst1282022-12-24T17:16:49ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1352022-12-24T13:06:55Z2022-12-24T13:06:55Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>That... doesn't tell me what I need to know.</blockquote><p>I have a fully automated tool to calculate damage at every level with the ability to switch monster statistics to see how they evolve based on them. On top of it, the current calculation is super complicated with weapons that are behaving very differently between critical hits and misses, I don't see myself getting into the maths in detail.
</p>
Also, the conclusion to your calculation always seems to be "Perpetual deal as much damage as the Trident if". And having enemies in the splash is not highly common (I'm not level 10 with my Alchemist, so I haven't tried large splash areas). And as I said before if you are in a situation where enemies are clumped together then go for your daily bombs, it's your time to shine.
<br />
And you calculate damage to multiple enemies as having the same value than single target damage, which is not a good measure of multi target damage. In general, I value it at half the value of single target damage. If you do that, your bombs suddenly lose a lot compared to the trident.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>By nature, I am one of the people who basically never uses consumables, and would be a lousy teammate for an alchemist.</blockquote><p>I am the exact opposite. I'm using consumables extensively (my Starfinder Mystic spent more than half of its money on consumables that she actually used... to save the party from 2 TPKs and one character death. Since then I consider consumables very positively).
</p>
Also, daily Alchemical Items are not exactly consumables, as they get renewed every day. In general, people dislike the feeling of "losing money" every time they use a consumable, feeling that you don't have when imbibing a daily Mutagen.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote><p>- War Blood Mutagen is basically +1 to hit (plus some little niche things) for any melee weapon-using martial who doesn't use concentrate abilities and doesn't weapon swap.
</p>
- Quicksilver Mutagen is basically a +1 to hit for every dex-based martial out there, plus some other smaller but still meaningful benefits. The damage isn't entirely fun, but it's manageable, especially if you fight at range.
<br />
- Energy Mutagen is a straight-up damage bonus for people with melee weapons, plus some other stuff. The downside is in (smallish) elemental vulnerabilities. If you've got a basic idea of what's coming, that's almost no disadvantage at all.</blockquote><p>Careful, 2 of these Mutagens are Uncommon AP content, and one has already been reported as broken with Persistent Mutagen. I'd be wary of allowing the War Blood Mutagen around my table as it's really a new power level for Mutagens (I wait for the new Alchemical Items to see if Paizo has decided to rebalanced Mutagens entirely or if it's just a broken Mutagen).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Also fair. I haven't got any.</blockquote><p>I like the Alchemist, my first PF2 love. I've studied it extensively (and I'm quite proud of my Bomb + Bird Companion combo as PF2 doesn't have many). Still, when someone says it's the worst class in the game, I keep quiet. The class is broken in many ways, asks for a lot of micromanagement to get an efficiency any properly built character gets without even thinking about it. Overall, it's not a good class. In proper hands, it works, and that's certainly the best you can expect from it. If, like I do, you love complicated classes then it's a really funny class with tons of (small) moments. But if you love simple classes, or specialized ones, or ones with obvious moments, then forget about it, Alchemist is not made for you.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Squiggit wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Poor action economy is definitely something that alchemists deal with a lot, but when we're talking about mutagens we're talking about items that last 10 minutes to an hour after early game, so I'm not sure why you're fixated so much on trying to use them in combat.
</p>
</blockquote><p>Before level 11, I don't bother with Mutagens. Once at level 11, it's true it changes with the new duration. But I consider level 11 to be quite late, I rarely speak about level 10+ powers of a class because I've rarely played at such high levels (I've reached level 15 at most in D&D3, got a few characters above 10 in PF1 but level 11+ are always the very last levels I play in).Sanityfaerie wrote:That... doesn't tell me what I need to know.
I have a fully automated tool to calculate damage at every level with the ability to switch monster statistics to see how they evolve based on them. On top of it, the current calculation is super complicated with weapons that are behaving very differently between critical hits and misses, I don't see myself getting into the maths in detail.
Also, the conclusion to your calculation always seems to be "Perpetual deal as much...SuperBidi2022-12-24T13:06:55ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forThunderdigletthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1342022-12-24T09:21:11Z2022-12-24T09:21:11Z<p>They last an hour at level 11, which is later than just the early game. 10 minutes is long enough to easily use before an encounter, but there will be fights where you are caught off guard and haven't used a mutagen yet. It isn't unreasonable to think a combat buff might have to be used in combat. I don't assume every heroism will be cast before combat starts.</p>
<p>Even if we assume by the time the alchemist gets mutagens that last 10 minutes everyone is pre-buffed every combat with one, I still don't think the tradeoffs are worth the benefits. But looking at drakeheart mutagens again, they might be. That AC bonus is pretty hefty.</p>They last an hour at level 11, which is later than just the early game. 10 minutes is long enough to easily use before an encounter, but there will be fights where you are caught off guard and haven't used a mutagen yet. It isn't unreasonable to think a combat buff might have to be used in combat. I don't assume every heroism will be cast before combat starts.
Even if we assume by the time the alchemist gets mutagens that last 10 minutes everyone is pre-buffed every combat with one, I still...Thunderdiglett2022-12-24T09:21:11ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSquiggithttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1332022-12-24T08:44:15Z2022-12-24T08:39:06Z<p>Poor action economy is definitely something that alchemists deal with a lot, but when we're talking about mutagens we're talking about items that last 10 minutes to an hour after early game, so I'm not sure why you're fixated so much on trying to use them in combat.</p>Poor action economy is definitely something that alchemists deal with a lot, but when we're talking about mutagens we're talking about items that last 10 minutes to an hour after early game, so I'm not sure why you're fixated so much on trying to use them in combat.Squiggit2022-12-24T08:39:06ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forThunderdigletthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1322022-12-24T08:15:05Z2022-12-24T08:15:05Z<p>Considering we are already narrowing down combat viable mutagens to only 2 shows that they are in fact niche. I didn't talk about quicksilver because it is only really useful on ranged dedicated players. What party composition are we talking about where you can fit in a dedicated archer and an alchemist in without heavily sacrificing on front-line capability or spellcasting? You would likely need a party of 6 to see this be relevant.</p>
<p>The other two examples still run into the problem where their first round needs to be rage & mutagen or stance & mutagen to be effective, still only leaving you with 1 action on your first round. I guess you could hold off on using the mutagen till the 2nd round, but this still further cements the fact that mutagen use is niche. And that is ignoring their penalties. Frankly I would never use bestial mutagen as the penalties are too severe. If I wanted to be a barbarian with a heftier penalty to AC I would have been a giant barbarian, and then I wouldn't have to rage and then use a mutagen.</p>
<p>Maybe a strength monk that didn't also start with a high dex could find value in a drakeheart mutagen, but you are still probably better off starting 18 str 16 dex and then not eating the action penalty every combat AND the -1 to saves.</p>
<p>Lets be honest, mutagens are pretty mediocre if you have to specifically design parties / characters around using them, rather than them just being a boon to your allies across the board. I dont need to play a specific build to benefit from my friends champion reaction. Its just always good. </p>
<p>And even in these specific character builds you are likely making your character worse to benefit from the mutagen in the first place. None of these examples would make me think its better to prepare these mutagens over alchemists other options.</p>
<p>I think if any player would have found good uses for mutagens, it would be Superbidi. A lot of alchemists options just suffer from poor action economy and/or crippling downsides.</p>Considering we are already narrowing down combat viable mutagens to only 2 shows that they are in fact niche. I didn't talk about quicksilver because it is only really useful on ranged dedicated players. What party composition are we talking about where you can fit in a dedicated archer and an alchemist in without heavily sacrificing on front-line capability or spellcasting? You would likely need a party of 6 to see this be relevant.
The other two examples still run into the problem where...Thunderdiglett2022-12-24T08:15:05ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good foraobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1312022-12-24T05:46:58Z2022-12-24T05:46:58Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Thunderdiglett wrote:</div><blockquote><p> Mutagens are niche because there is rarely a time in combat I would want to be using the actions to drink them. For 2 handing, dual-wielding, and sword and board play-styles it would take 2-3 actions to use a mutagen in combat. Those actions are better spent using my class features to do what my class is supposed to do in combat. </p>
<p>Even in the case of a martial build that has an open hand, like a monk, they usually want to spend an action to get into a stance. So a turn one would look like:</p>
<p>1st action -> dragon stance
<br />
2nd action -> mutagen
<br />
3rd action -> ???</p>
<p>The third action is awkward, do I run into an enemy and end my turn? Did the enemy go before me, run up to my character and hit me already? In that case I am potentially eating an attack of opportunity drinking an elixir / mutagen. In almost all scenarios where a martial could be using an item round one, they spend the entire round doing it.</p>
<p>And the 1st and 2nd rounds are the most important rounds to be gaining an advantage in an encounter. I should be doing something active to help my party vs standing around setting up. This is likely why Superbidi mostly uses poisons instead, they are easily set up before combat, and as such provide a benefit without spending actions to do it.</p>
<p>You could use elixirs / mutagens before kicking down the door. But the game's rules are a little vague on how often you can rely on pre-buffing before every fight. It was a strategy that was rightfully nerfed coming from 1e.</p>
<p>I also think that people vastly overrate buffing in this edition, for similar reasons to above. You are better off using your actions for winning the fight NOW. Haste (3rd) and Heroism (3rd) are not very good uses of actions. The reason why bard buffing is so good is because it affects the entire party for only 1 action, letting the bard also cast a spell on the same turn. </blockquote><p>Considering the 2 relevant combat mutagens do work well with a free hand, beastial is obvious but quicksilver is quite good if you're at long range with a bow, starting out with one in hand isn't a bad idea. Animal barbarians can carry drakehearts and juggernauts to great effect. Drakeheart is also quite good on strength monks. Treat it like a raise shield action that's gonna last a minute.Thunderdiglett wrote:Mutagens are niche because there is rarely a time in combat I would want to be using the actions to drink them. For 2 handing, dual-wielding, and sword and board play-styles it would take 2-3 actions to use a mutagen in combat. Those actions are better spent using my class features to do what my class is supposed to do in combat.
Even in the case of a martial build that has an open hand, like a monk, they usually want to spend an action to get into a stance. So a turn...aobst1282022-12-24T05:46:58ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forThunderdigletthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1302022-12-24T04:04:26Z2022-12-24T04:04:26Z<p>I should clarify in my last statement I meant buff spells (i.e. buffing that takes 2 actions). One action buffs you can sneak into your regular 2 action routines are very good (one for all, inspire competence, amp guidance, etc.)</p>I should clarify in my last statement I meant buff spells (i.e. buffing that takes 2 actions). One action buffs you can sneak into your regular 2 action routines are very good (one for all, inspire competence, amp guidance, etc.)Thunderdiglett2022-12-24T04:04:26ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forThunderdigletthttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1292022-12-24T03:46:07Z2022-12-24T03:46:07Z<p>Mutagens are niche because there is rarely a time in combat I would want to be using the actions to drink them. For 2 handing, dual-wielding, and sword and board play-styles it would take 2-3 actions to use a mutagen in combat. Those actions are better spent using my class features to do what my class is supposed to do in combat. </p>
<p>Even in the case of a martial build that has an open hand, like a monk, they usually want to spend an action to get into a stance. So a turn one would look like:</p>
<p>1st action -> dragon stance
<br />
2nd action -> mutagen
<br />
3rd action -> ???</p>
<p>The third action is awkward, do I run into an enemy and end my turn? Did the enemy go before me, run up to my character and hit me already? In that case I am potentially eating an attack of opportunity drinking an elixir / mutagen. In almost all scenarios where a martial could be using an item round one, they spend the entire round doing it.</p>
<p>And the 1st and 2nd rounds are the most important rounds to be gaining an advantage in an encounter. I should be doing something active to help my party vs standing around setting up. This is likely why Superbidi mostly uses poisons instead, they are easily set up before combat, and as such provide a benefit without spending actions to do it.</p>
<p>You could use elixirs / mutagens before kicking down the door. But the game's rules are a little vague on how often you can rely on pre-buffing before every fight. It was a strategy that was rightfully nerfed coming from 1e.</p>
<p>I also think that people vastly overrate buffing in this edition, for similar reasons to above. You are better off using your actions for winning the fight NOW. Haste (3rd) and Heroism (3rd) are not very good uses of actions. The reason why bard buffing is so good is because it affects the entire party for only 1 action, letting the bard also cast a spell on the same turn.</p>Mutagens are niche because there is rarely a time in combat I would want to be using the actions to drink them. For 2 handing, dual-wielding, and sword and board play-styles it would take 2-3 actions to use a mutagen in combat. Those actions are better spent using my class features to do what my class is supposed to do in combat.
Even in the case of a martial build that has an open hand, like a monk, they usually want to spend an action to get into a stance. So a turn one would look like:
...Thunderdiglett2022-12-24T03:46:07ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good foraobst128https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1282022-12-24T03:29:15Z2022-12-24T03:29:15Z<p>I'm amazed at how in depth this got. I just thought it would be neat to throw bombs with better accuracy</p>I'm amazed at how in depth this got. I just thought it would be neat to throw bombs with better accuracyaobst1282022-12-24T03:29:15ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSanityfaeriehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1272022-12-24T01:35:43Z2022-12-24T01:35:43Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>Why would you use your daily bombs for special cases? Your daily bombs are for things that generally happens daily. Special cases are either for Quick Alchemy (for the really unexpected) or crafting (for the things that happen every once in a while).</blockquote><p>Hmm...
<p>Okay. Fair - and since in general what you're looking for on those is unusual damage types, you could even afford to let them lag by a few levels, so the overall price doesn't need to be particularly high.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>An extra feat for not much. I was mostly stating that the drawback of having a bomb at hand was not really that much of a problem as you have the same with your build.</blockquote><p>Well, that's certainly true. I mean, the drawback isn't really much regardless. I was just noting that it's •there•.
<p>It's a fair point about the elixir and rage. I'd probably walk around with elixir in hand, and spend the first time with a rage/drink/quick bomb. but that's just my current thoughts.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>The numbers are the ones I've given (or, to be hyper accurate, it's 7.5% extra damage between your Perpetual build and the Trident 3 attacks and 9% extra damage between the Trident + Bomber Dual Thrower and the Perpetual build).</blockquote><p>That... doesn't tell me what I need to know.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>Please don't. I don't insult your fellow players, don't insult mine. I've played in a lot of environments (PFS doesn't necessarily mean strangers, it's just that my gaming group prefers PFS). And even with my massive knowledge of the Alchemist, I'll rarely ask a Mutagen if I end up teamed up with an Alchemist, because Mutagens are super niche.</blockquote><p>That's entirely fair. I want to be clear, though - that's really notat all how I meant it. I'm actually working through this at least in part in an attempt to understand the alchemist better. By nature, I <i>am</i> one of the people who basically never uses consumables, and would be a lousy teammate for an alchemist. Proper consumable use is a skill that I'm trying to develop, and so I was ready to take you at your word because it made perfect sense that the average player who had not dug into that side of things would not have those skills.
<p>I mean, I've been learning and correcting myself as I go, right? I've admitted that I was wrong when it became clear that I was wrong? I've been pretty open about that, right?</p>
<p>...and I don't think I can agree with you that mutagens are super niche.</p>
<p>- War Blood Mutagen is basically +1 to hit (plus some little niche things) for any melee weapon-using martial who doesn't use concentrate abilities and doesn't weapon swap.
<br />
- Quicksilver Mutagen is basically a +1 to hit for every dex-based martial out there, plus some other smaller but still meaningful benefits. The damage isn't entirely fun, but it's manageable, especially if you fight at range.
<br />
- Energy Mutagen is a straight-up damage bonus for people with melee weapons, plus some other stuff. The downside is in (smallish) elemental vulnerabilities. If you've got a basic idea of what's coming, that's almost no disadvantage at all.</p>
<p>That's way more than super niche. There's also silvertongue, which only requires that you have an important social encounter and you see it coming. Now, there are also mutagens out there that <i>are</i> pretty niche, but that's not all of them.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Quote:</div><blockquote>You question my numbers and I prove myself. I personally really question your knowledge of the class. What is your experience with an Alchemist (that you played or played with, even if playing one is better than seeing one played)?</blockquote><p>Also fair. I haven't got any. I'm literally figuring some of this out as I go along. At the same time, I haven't made any real assertions about the way things are in play experience except to make assertions about different campaign styles calling for different things, and I'm basing that on stuff that I've read from other alchemists here on the boards, who've had very different experiences than you have.
<p>...and I question your numbers because you've made solid assertions, and then I've gone back and checked and done the math where everyone can see it, and the assertions that you've made have been simply incorrect in meaningful ways. I've been <i>ready</i> to be wrong. Whenever I run numbers like that, I'm always ready to discover that I was incorrect in my initial assumptions (and sometimes it happens). It's just that according the analyses I've posted, the assertions of yours that I've been testing have been wrong in some meaningful ways, and you haven't come back to tell me how I got those analyses wrong.</p>SuperBidi wrote:Why would you use your daily bombs for special cases? Your daily bombs are for things that generally happens daily. Special cases are either for Quick Alchemy (for the really unexpected) or crafting (for the things that happen every once in a while).
Hmm... Okay. Fair - and since in general what you're looking for on those is unusual damage types, you could even afford to let them lag by a few levels, so the overall price doesn't need to be particularly high.
Quote:An extra...Sanityfaerie2022-12-24T01:35:43ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSuperBidihttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1262022-12-23T23:42:29Z2022-12-23T23:42:29Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Again I'm going to point out that this depends on how many daily bombs you have, and how niche they are. If you're stacking a bunch of bombs for primary use then yeah, that's true. If your daily bombs are mostly there for things like ghost charges and other special case bombs, or you don't have all that many of them, then you maybe don't want to be spending them every turn of every fight.</blockquote><p>Why would you use your daily bombs for special cases? Your daily bombs are for things that generally happens daily. Special cases are either for Quick Alchemy (for the really unexpected) or crafting (for the things that happen every once in a while).
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>I'm going to reserve judgement on this one for the moment. You keep making assertions about the numbers, and then I go back in and actually run the numbers out where everyone can see them, and it turns out that things aren't nearly as clear-cut as you'd suggested. Anyway, you still haven't addressed the "applying splash damage to your own bird" issue. How do you plan to address that?</blockquote><p><a href="https://imgur.com/QEPYna3" target="_blank" rel="nofollow">Here it is.</a>
</p>
The numbers are the ones I've given (or, to be hyper accurate, it's 7.5% extra damage between your Perpetual build and the Trident 3 attacks and 9% extra damage between the Trident + Bomber Dual Thrower and the Perpetual build).</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Not true. Quicksilver Elixir is worth daily-crafting anyway (it's +1 to hit above anything else you could use) and it renders the goggles largely irrelevant. If you also have Uncanny Bombs and aren't doign alchemical crafting in downtime, it's entirely irrelevant.</blockquote><p>I agree, but then that's even more constraints to your build (remember that if you're caught up off guard, you need 2 actions to get under Quicksilver Elixir). So I'd personally upgrade the Goggles "in case of" instead of assuming I'll always have a Quicksilver Elixir at hand.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>if/when you take Perpetual Breadth, you get to pick two more.</blockquote><p>An extra feat for not much. I was mostly stating that the drawback of having a bomb at hand was not really that much of a problem as you have the same with your build.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Round 1, if you're within 60 of the foe at the start of your turn (not unlikely) and your hands are empty, then you can absolutely have a standard round of alchemy/double slice just like normal.</blockquote><p>No, you need to Rage. And also imbibe a Quicksilver Mutagen if you don't have the Goggles. So if you start with your hands empty you actually waste an entire turn to buff yourself.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>- I say "that's not true. Look how well they perform even without additives. You can get a lot of little benefits from that action."</blockquote><p>And I said that the "little benefits" are offset by the -20% in damage. The little benefits are what compensates the -20% in damage. Overall, the only benefit is Additives, the rest are just number fixers.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Now if you're going to say that the people you meet in PFS PUGs</blockquote><p>Please don't. I don't insult your fellow players, don't insult mine. I've played in a lot of environments (PFS doesn't necessarily mean strangers, it's just that my gaming group prefers PFS). And even with my massive knowledge of the Alchemist, I'll rarely ask a Mutagen if I end up teamed up with an Alchemist, because Mutagens are super niche.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>How many reagents you use on teammates and non-combat encounters is going to be seriously campaign-dependent.</blockquote><p>All niche abilities are campaign-dependent. If you end up in a campaign where you absolutely need an Alchemist to perform a specific task repeatedly then obviously play an Alchemist. But there's enough material released, from PFS to APs, to know that it's not a common expectation. Also this is not the first conversation about the Alchemist here.
<p>You question my numbers and I prove myself. I personally really question your knowledge of the class. What is your experience with an Alchemist (that you played or played with, even if playing one is better than seeing one played)?</p>Sanityfaerie wrote:Again I'm going to point out that this depends on how many daily bombs you have, and how niche they are. If you're stacking a bunch of bombs for primary use then yeah, that's true. If your daily bombs are mostly there for things like ghost charges and other special case bombs, or you don't have all that many of them, then you maybe don't want to be spending them every turn of every fight.
Why would you use your daily bombs for special cases? Your daily bombs are for things...SuperBidi2022-12-23T23:42:29ZRe: Forums: Advice: Good dual class combos (and builds), and what they're good forSanityfaeriehttps://paizo.com/threads/rzs43oxn&page=3?Good-dual-class-combos-and-what-theyre-good-for#1252022-12-23T22:37:47Z2022-12-23T22:37:47Z<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote> <div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>Okay. Let's look at that.</blockquote><p>I got this numbers from Citricking's tool. For such complicated attack sequence it makes everything much clearer.
<p>Also, I've used 12 Strength on my Barbarian because I assume you can't have all the stats high. With 16 Strength, Trident becomes more interesting. And I've considered a Returning Rune as first Property Rune.</blockquote><p>Barbarian is going to force a +2 str on you whether you like it or not. After that, you've got dex and int as your two top, and con's always handy, but I'm not seeing str lose to either wis or cha, so it's at least going to get one of your four pick-stats, for 14. I'd assumed that you were pulling three stats out of your ancestry, and figured I'd be generous. Still, if you are planning on making trident a meaningful part of your build, I'm not sure why it would be below 14.
<p>Still, it's a good point about returning. Dropping initial strength to 14 and losing one of the d6... </p>
<p>07: 2d8+3 (avg 12)
<br />
10: 2d8+1d6+4 (avg 16.5)
<br />
12: 3d8+1d6+4 (avg 20)
<br />
16: 3d8+2d6+4 (avg 24.5)
<br />
19: 4d8+2d6+4 (avg 29)
<br />
20: 4d8+2d6+5 (avg 30)</p>
<p>So by those numbers...
<br />
- level 7 just needs to splash 1 to match.
<br />
- level 10 likewise
<br />
- level 12 is starting to pull ahead meaningfully with only one splash
<br />
- level 16 needs 2 splashes to make up the distance, but by that point they've been in radius 15 for a while, so that shouldn't be too hard.
<br />
- level 17 is back to one splash to match.
<br />
- level 20 doesn't actually change enough to matter.</p>
<p>Basically, any time you've got a reasonable number of creatures on the board, the bombs are going to be doing more overall damage per hit than the tridents. They're going to be doing a <i>lot[/o] more overall damage per miss. This isn't "special case". This is "in most cases, one perpetual bomb is going to do more than one trident throw, even if you don't take additives into account." Also, again, range is a thing. If they're standing 50 feet away, and you're level 12 or higher, then the bomb is going to be a [i]lot</i> more effective on average.</p>
<p>So that's a point on which you were incorrect.</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>TL:DR - there are absolutely going to be situations where you'd rather throw a perpetual bomb than a trident, especially as you get up in levels.</blockquote>Yes, but all these situations are fully covered by your daily bombs. So ultimately you'll have hard time finding a situation where Bombs are clearly better than a Trident but where at the same time you don't want to use any of your daily ones despite the situation being ideal for them. That's why I say that calling them niche is an overstatement.</blockquote><p>Again I'm going to point out that this depends on how many daily bombs you have, and how niche they are. If you're stacking a bunch of bombs for primary use then yeah, that's true. If your daily bombs are mostly there for things like ghost charges and other special case bombs, or you don't have all that many of them, then you maybe don't want to be spending them every turn of every fight.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>In comparison to bought weapons, it has an advantage in saving money</blockquote>Remember that you have to buy a weapon up to level 8 and then Alchemist's Goggles to keep your bonus at its maximum with Perpetual Bombs. So the money advantage is not that big.</blockquote><p>Not true. Quicksilver Elixir is worth daily-crafting anyway (it's +1 to hit above anything else you could use) and it renders the goggles largely irrelevant. If you also have Uncanny Bombs and aren't doign alchemical crafting in downtime, it's <i>entirely</i> irrelevant.
<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><div class="messageboard-quotee">Sanityfaerie wrote:</div><blockquote>So yeah, it works, in a broad sense. You do need to walk around with your hands full of stuff, though, with a familiar who's holding a bomb at all times... and, again, you need to know which bombs you want to use in which order.</blockquote><p>Same with your Perpetual Bomb build. You have to choose your Perpetual Bombs types at level 7 and it sticks during your whole career and if you don't have bombs in both of your hands at round 1 you can't benefit from Dual Weapon Thrower and will start with an off round.
</p>
Also, it's a routine in a character with a lot of other options, so it doesn't have to cover anything but raw damage. If you need anything else you'll drop out of your routine to benefit from the best course of action.
<br />
And remember that, unlike your Perpetual routine, it's a 2-action routine, something that you fit very easily in a normal fight and that you can adapt depending on the situation.</blockquote><p>You have to pick two perpetual bombs types at level 7, and if/when you take Perpetual Breadth, you get to pick two more. Round 1, if you're within 60 of the foe at the start of your turn (not unlikely) and your hands are empty, then you can absolutely have a standard round of alchemy/double slice just like normal. (yes, this is only starting at level 9. That's true.)
<p>As for two-action vs three action? Yes. That's true... and you <i>keep going back to that well</i>. Please be fair about this.</p>
<p>- You say "the only reason to Quick alchemy is the additives. Therefore the additives have to bear the entire weight of the quick alchemy action."
<br />
- I say "that's not true. Look how well they perform even without additives. You can get a <i>lot</i> of little benefits from that action."
<br />
- You say "well, yeah, but don't forget that it's costing you an extra action to get that performance."</p>
<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote>We are in a Dual Class context, so 7 class feats (I count 7 of them) to get a lot of value is an acceptable tradeoff. Your Perpetual Bombs feat sequence is also high: 5 feats. So it's actually a difference of 2 feats, with an actual difference in the battlefield that goes way beyond 2 feats in my opinion (becoming a very valid debuffer, having an Animal Companion and gaining 10% damage on your main routine, that's more valuable than 2 feats).</blockquote><p>I'm going to reserve judgement on this one for the moment. You keep making assertions about the numbers, and then I go back in and actually run the numbers out where everyone can see them, and it turns out that things aren't nearly as clear-cut as you'd suggested. Anyway, you still haven't addressed the "applying splash damage to your own bird" issue. How <i>do</i> you plan to address that?
<div class="messageboard-quotee">SuperBidi wrote:</div><blockquote><p>Don't jump too fast to conclusions. I definitely help my teammates, actually more than Ottdmk according to its reagent allocations (I value poison a lot, it's nearly half of my reagent allocation). In my opinion, you vastly overvalue how many reagents you'll use on your teammates and non-combat encounters. Nearly no one will accept Mutagens. Elixirs of Life are not easy to use, even more if you come up with a build that has nothing to help them (you at least need a Familiar with some grabbing ability to alleviate the cost of drawing them, that's an extra "tax" feat to add to your build). And use of other Elixirs is a rarity, I have crafted a few with my Alchemist that I use when needed (Cat's Eye, Darkvision, Bloodhound Masks, things like that) but it doesn't honestly happen often. As a Chirurgeon, I also maintain everyone under Antidotes and Antiplagues, not incredible but the bonuses are always on. Overall, I don't think you can use much more of them, there are very quick diminishing returns on how many reagents you'd be able to use.</p>
<p>So unless you have chosen a campaign with a lot of combats (and in that case your first 8 levels have been a nightmare) you'll never really feel the Perpetual part of Perpetual Bombs.</blockquote><p>How many reagents you use on teammates and non-combat encounters is going to be seriously campaign-dependent. It's going to depend on how many noncombat encounters you're likely to have, how important they are, and how willing your fellow party members are to chug mutagens for the cause. How much they want mutagens is going to depend on their personal preferences, and how well you've sold them on the idea. You can always find more ways to use consumables, especially if you actually know what you're up against, and you have a robust recipe book.
<p>Now if you're going to say that the people you meet in PFS PUGs don't generally understand/trust/want proper alchemical support, then I'm prepared to just take you at your word on that, but that's a far cry from saying "all PF2 games everywhere are like this."</p>SuperBidi wrote:Sanityfaerie wrote:Okay. Let's look at that.
I got this numbers from Citricking's tool. For such complicated attack sequence it makes everything much clearer. Also, I've used 12 Strength on my Barbarian because I assume you can't have all the stats high. With 16 Strength, Trident becomes more interesting. And I've considered a Returning Rune as first Property Rune.Barbarian is going to force a +2 str on you whether you like it or not. After that, you've got dex and int as...Sanityfaerie2022-12-23T22:37:47Z