Welp, just today we learned that the next big Pathfinder 2e class is going to be the Kineticist which will premiere in the Rage of Elements book. We'll be seeing a playtest of the class on Monday August 8th, in which we'll see 4 of the 6 elements that they will be able to use when the Kineticist officially releases. The iconic for this class is still Yoon, who was the iconic for the Kineticist in Pathfinder 1e, although it looks like she's had a training montage or two since then.
Now, anyone want to predict what we might be seeing? I'm personally hoping Paizo will find a way to play more with the space of Focus Spells. We saw some experimentation with the system in the new Psychic class, both with that class's playtest & its official release, and I'm guessing there can be more done with that design space.
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I'd love to see them do something with Stances, personally. Altering the usage of your elemental power as the situation demands is a really fun fantasy.
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Paizo has kind of trimmed back on what they consider 'elemental' in PF2 with the options available to Elemental sorcerers and Elementalist spellcasters... I'm curious if that will reflect in the Kineticist. Will they get access to cold or electricity damage if they run water/air like in PF1?
Or are we going to see the four classical elements of PF2 in this playtest: fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and bludgeoning?
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I think the idea of amps is an interesting one, and one they might well play with. In particular, if we're going *real* wacky on it... I could see the idea of an amp on a martial attack. Like, you have a standard attack that looks like "you punch the enemy, but it's fire, and they're thirty feet away" and you can do that thing all day, but you can also bump *that* thing by pumping a focus point into it.
I'm not saying that that's what I want personally. It's not. It is an interesting way things could go, though, if they want to push some boundaries.
Similarly/alternately, we could see elemental blasts that look like cantrips, but that are modified and/or enabled by stances. Again, Kineticist really is an opportunity to blend those lines a bit.
I think the idea of amps is an interesting one, and one they might well play with. In particular, if we're going *real* wacky on it... I could see the idea of an amp on a martial attack. Like, you have a standard attack that looks like "you punch the enemy, but it's fire, and they're thirty feet away" and you can do that thing all day, but you can also bump *that* thing by pumping a focus point into it.
I'm not saying that that's what I want personally. It's not. It is an interesting way things could go, though, if they want to push some boundaries.
Similarly/alternately, we could see elemental blasts that look like cantrips, but that are modified and/or enabled by stances. Again, Kineticist really is an opportunity to blend those lines a bit.
I'm expecting the former. I'm all for it if it means reliable elemental damage at range with martial accuracy. Burn being a mechanic to regain focus mid combat at a price as some suggest would make burn optional and would be the best middle ground I can think of for the vitriolic masses on both sides of the debate.
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I feel like the Kineticist might go in a new direction, if only because focus points to power up your elemental blasts and having extra focus points and spell attacks feels... really similar to what the psychic is already doing.
The timing just feels strange to me to lean into what kind of sounds like Psychic 2.
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Paizo has kind of trimmed back on what they consider 'elemental' in PF2 with the options available to Elemental sorcerers and Elementalist spellcasters... I'm curious if that will reflect in the Kineticist. Will they get access to cold or electricity damage if they run water/air like in PF1?
Or are we going to see the four classical elements of PF2 in this playtest: fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and bludgeoning?
I really hope they recognize they can't get away with this because if this is what it is in the playtest then people will be so g*%+%@n angry about it that they will receive zero feedback on anything else.
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Or are we going to see the four classical elements of PF2 in this playtest: fire, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and bludgeoning?
They COULD surprise us! It could be streamlined to bludgeoning, bludgeoning, bludgeoning, and bludgeoning... :P
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Being locked into one damage type is a pretty big setback in PF2, so I imagine there will be a fair bit of feat support for doing different damage types.
I have never been interested in the PF1 kineticist so I am not bringing high expectations into the play test, but I had similarly low expectations for the Magus and the gunslinger but got turned around on them both.
My guess would be a low damage die base (d6), with very high accuracy to put to rest the “I want a super accurate energy blaster.” Which has been a rumbling for a very long time.
Being locked into one damage type is a pretty big setback in PF2, so I imagine there will be a fair bit of feat support for doing different damage types.
I have never been interested in the PF1 kineticist so I am not bringing high expectations into the play test, but I had similarly low expectations for the Magus and the gunslinger but got turned around on them both.
My guess would be a low damage die base (d6), with very high accuracy to put to rest the “I want a super accurate energy blaster.” Which has been a rumbling for a very long time.
If they go the unarmed strike route for Eldritch Blasts, maybe something like Legendary Proficiency in unarmed strikes with the Kineticist trait?
What do we think the odds are of ice and sand being replicable with the six starting elements?
Being able to combine elements would be awesome, so I think it is likely
What do we think the odds are of ice and sand being replicable with the six starting elements?
It's possible. If the Kineticist's elements are treated similarly to the Thaumaturge's implements, then mixing and matching elements wouldn't be out of the question.
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Another thing I think will be likely is that you will be limited to one attack around, but get meta magic like feats that add actions to your blast that do cool things, like give it a burst or cone, or increase the damage perhaps with an extra dice of a different damage type.
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I wonder if Aether Wood and Void will make the cut, especially seeing as Rage of Elements is introducing the Elemental planes of Metal and Wood.
Though secrets of magic definitely talked about Aether as an extrusion of the Ethereal plane (along with ectoplasm).
I believe on stream they said the Kineticist was playtesting the core four elements and releasing in full with those plus Wood and Metal for a total of six. No Aether and Void in the launch version, barring something dramatic happening as a result of playtest feedback.
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What do we think the odds are of ice and sand being replicable with the six starting elements?
You might have to change the damage from bludgeoning to bludgeoning first. ;)
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I don't want spell slots or focus points on the Kineticist. There should be nothing the Kineticist can do that they can run out of (in a fight, in a day, etc.)
Something like Inventor unstable? That is focus points but not really? Like every time that you use lose max hit points equal your level then after a 10 minutes rest returns to normal.
But I have 0 expectations for the class.
Yeah... This is where I'm at. I love the concept but I think it's more likely than not it'll go a way I don't like. When your expectations are at the bottom, things can only go up from there.
(I really do think burn, regardless of how controversial the mechanic might be, is an integral part of the class)
Yep and that's why my expectations are as low as they are. :(
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I feel like the Kineticist might go in a new direction, if only because focus points to power up your elemental blasts and having extra focus points and spell attacks feels... really similar to what the psychic is already doing.
The timing just feels strange to me to lean into what kind of sounds like Psychic 2.
Also the exciting prospect of…just going in a new direction could be a thing. I never played a ben…kineticist in PF1, so am wholeheartedly open to anything without any concerns regarding legacy mechanics. I know of burn but that is about the extent of my knowledge. I understand folks get pretty wedded to concepts themes and mechanics (been there, lived there etc) so I hope people get what they want, I’m just pretty happy with the direction the inventor, thaumaturge and psychic have been pushing envelope of design edge wise.
Something like Inventor unstable? That is focus points but not really? Like every time that you use lose max hit points equal your level then after a 10 minutes rest returns to normal.
That might work. You can do it a few times per combat without an issue, but if you want to push things further you can do it again but it hurts. I think "your only limits are your physical ability to endure the stress this puts on your body" is part and parcel to what the Kineticist is.
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If the blast action has flourish and interacts with special meta magic-like feats that modify it, they wouldn’t have to have any focus points or restrictions on cantrips or the like. MCing into the class could get you the basic blasts but not interact with spells, so it wouldn’t create any issues.
As far as burn, make it feat options and it wouldn’t be required
So yeah the way it worked with the Legendary Kineticist, from Legendary Games, is you would pick an Element and get their basic blast and defensive talent. Your Element determines which saves increase at what rate. The basic blast cantrip is a single action with Flourish. It has a range of melee or 30 feet, except for Air which has greater range. Most do 1d6 damage at base with Heighten +1 for additional 1d6. Earth being versatile only does 1d4. Each tends to do something special on a crit.
As you level you can pick up Infusions that take 1 action to add to the Blast and use a Focus point, normally. Start with 1 infusion and gain 1 every other level.
They also have two class features that modify the Infusions cost. Burn is a free action to make your next Infusion cost no Focus Points. But also gives you Stunned 2, or increases your Stunned by +2, at the end of your turn. Gather Power on the other hand is an action that uses 1 action to make your next Infusion cost no Focus Points. So you could go all in spending 2 Focus Points and 2 actions to add a Form and Substance Infusion. Or you could spend a Free Action and take Stunned 2 to only spend 1 Focus Point to do the same. Or you could use Gather Power to put one of either Form or Substance Infusion on your Blast using up all 3 actions but no Focus Points.
Again with Legendary Kineticist the Infusions don't cost feats to gain.
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I have to assume they're not going to give you three elements like they did in PF1. But they will probably give you two elements so you can combine them to throw around lava or mud or whatever.
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I have to assume they're not going to give you three elements like they did in PF1. But they will probably give you two elements so you can combine them to throw around lava or mud or whatever.
I'd be okay with this because I would often not know what to pick as that third element and would often only double-down on something I had already picked. Assuming I would ever reach a high enough level to get the third element, anyway.
It might actually be cool if they could go all-in on the flavour for these type combinations as well because it kind of just felt like you got your combination blast and that was it. I wouldn't mind seeing some utility wild talents requiring you to have a specific combination of elemental foci.
I have to assume they're not going to give you three elements like they did in PF1. But they will probably give you two elements so you can combine them to throw around lava or mud or whatever.
I don't see why you couldn't get 3: the wand implement gets 3 elements at 17th and the wands additional effects, Intensify Vulnerability and area effect options can simulate various Form and Substance Infusions.
PS: the Psychic feat Strain Mind looks like it could work for those that want to scratch that Burn itch without having it a required part of the class.
I think I would prefer for the class not to interact with focus points at all, infusions just being feats that add actions to do stuff with your blasts and any focus point system being for something more like true focus spells for doing cool magical stuff beyond blasting. Or maybe being stances that give you a number of other things than more blasting, like defenses, movement options, buffing of allies in a small area, or debuffing enemies. Using focus points to "Amp" blasts feels like it would just end up way, way too close to the psychic.
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I believe on stream they said the Kineticist was playtesting the core four elements and releasing in full with those plus Wood and Metal for a total of six. No Aether and Void in the launch version, barring something dramatic happening as a result of playtest feedback.I wonder if Aether Wood and Void will make the cut, especially seeing as Rage of Elements is introducing the Elemental planes of Metal and Wood.
Though secrets of magic definitely talked about Aether as an extrusion of the Ethereal plane (along with ectoplasm).
Sad to see my two favorite elements go, but I guess Psychic covers a lot of the ground Telekineticist used to and Void was just TK/Negative energy mix. Still would like to see them in a future source book.
It's a bit strange seeing Metal and Earth being separated out considering their overall thematic similarities. I'm curious as to what that's all about.
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And on the other hand, pushing the classes to play in a specific way, limiting pp/munchkin from taking specific archetypes just for exploiting perks ( in this case, focus spells).
Fellas is it power gaming to take a spellcaster archetype because you want to cast a spell
Well. There would definitely be things I'd be arguing about here if it weren't for the fact that the playtest is already written and dropping in a few days. I will save my arguments until the context we'll be arguing in is more clearly set.
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Infusions really shouldn't cost feats or actions, but I feel like Paizo will add those costs regardless.
I don't really see this perspective. I mean, Infusions were a precursor to "class feats" in PF1 (i.e. you chose them on odd levels) so if they didn't cost feats that would be strange. Also, "the Kineticist can spend actions to gather power in order to make more effective blasts" is probably a thing we're keeping too.
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Infusions really shouldn't cost feats or actions, but I feel like Paizo will add those costs regardless.I don't really see this perspective. I mean, Infusions were a precursor to "class feats" in PF1 (i.e. you chose them on odd levels) so if they didn't cost feats that would be strange. Also, "the Kineticist can spend actions to gather power in order to make more effective blasts" is probably a thing we're keeping too.
We all know we must make some compromises.
We are bitterly divided over which compromises to make.
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It really doesn't have to be that big of a deal. This is a game. The subject is which math rocks are used to make the blasty people blast. ¯\_('•')_/¯
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It's a bit strange seeing Metal and Earth being separated out considering their overall thematic similarities. I'm curious as to what that's all about.
In Wuxing (Chinese Five Elements) where they probably took from, Metal and Earth are distinct elements.
Metal represents firmness, rigidity, persistence, strength, and determination. It can also relate to having strong impulses, being forceful, ambitious, and stubbornness.
Earth represents patience, thoughtfulness, practicality, hard work, and stability, as well as seeking to bring the other elements together to create harmony.
Thematically, anyway, they are very different - I'm curious to see how it reflects in the mechanics.