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I'm hoping they will primarily be martial in regards to their at-will elemental attacks, with focus powers for their limited "big gun" attacks, and possess stunted casting (like the magus and summoner) for their utility powers, with lots of room for expansion and role emphasizing in those areas via class feats.
Between the elemental choices, and the ability to focus on or broaden one of the three mechanical aspects mentioned above, I think we would just about capture the essence of the original kineticist.
Penalizing mechanics, such as Burn, need to die, but I'd welcome conceptual alternatives.
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This is hardly a mechanical wish, but I do hope that narratively the class doesn't lean all in on being an Avatar bender stand-in - in the original conception, back in Occult Adventures, kineticist was described as usually developing their powers through traumatic experiences and struggling to control them and being largely self-taught, rather than it being a widespread and understood tradition. (All the elemental martial arts stuff came in later.)
Of course, it'll be hard not to at least somewhat feature that presentation now - people evidently love it and Golarion already has a few spots for it, like Jalmeray and much of Tian Xia, but I hope those more occult-ish roots aren't entirely forgotten.
This is hardly a mechanical wish, but I do hope that narratively the class doesn't lean all in on being an Avatar bender stand-in - in the original conception, back in Occult Adventures, kineticist was described as usually developing their powers through traumatic experiences and struggling to control them and being largely self-taught, rather than it being a widespread and understood tradition. (All the elemental martial arts stuff came in later.)
Of course, it'll be hard not to at least somewhat feature that presentation now - people evidently love it and Golarion already has a few spots for it, like Jalmeray and much of Tian Xia, but I hope those more occult-ish roots aren't entirely forgotten.
Well the book it's featuring in is called elemental rage so I think it's safe to assume the occult origin is being dropped and it's firmly a primal class now
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I'm hoping they will primarily be martial in regards to their at-will elemental attacks, with focus powers for their limited "big gun" attacks, and possess stunted casting (like the magus and summoner) for their utility powers, with lots of room for expansion and role emphasizing in those areas via class feats.
Between the elemental choices, and the ability to focus on or broaden one of the three mechanical aspects mentioned above, I think we would just about capture the essence of the original kineticist.
Penalizing mechanics, such as Burn, need to die, but I'd welcome conceptual alternatives.
I am severely opposed to just making them another wave caster. No. I'm willing to accept a kineticist that has some mandatory burn mechanic that makes them effectively tied to daily resources if I have to. I won't like it, and I won't play it, but I can accept it. A kineticist that's mucking around with spell slots, though, is a betrayal of the concept and a tragedy.
I really don't expect it to happen that way. I have that much faith in Paizo. I will be notably disappointed in them if it does.
Well the book it's featuring in is called elemental rage so I think it's safe to assume the occult origin is being dropped and it's firmly a primal class now
That doesn't mean you can't have some of that "power unlocked by trauma, largely self-taught" flavor going on, though.
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That's a bit of a surprise that people would rather be better at single target attacking than every other form of 'bending' the class does, but to each their own I suppose. I am playing an elemental sorcerer in my game and even with the DCs as high as they can be, I get frustrated with how seldom enemies fail. Having even less of a chance would be very frustrating.
All about what people want out of the class. Single target damage is probably the most boring part to me (and even then at level 20 you're only going to be one lower than martials in regards to spell attacks versus strikes, though I am very aware of the frustrations of some levels where there is a very big gap between martial to hit and spell to hit), but things like status that's inflicted, dealing damage to multiple foes... All the really neat stuff they can do are the most fun. Not to mention even single target blasts could always target saves.
That's a bit of a surprise that people would rather be better at single target attacking than every other form of 'bending' the class does, but to each their own I suppose. I am playing an elemental sorcerer in my game and even with the DCs as high as they can be, I get frustrated with how seldom enemies fail. Having even less of a chance would be very frustrating.
All about what people want out of the class. Single target damage is probably the most boring part to me (and even then at level 20 you're only going to be one lower than martials in regards to spell attacks versus strikes, though I am very aware of the frustrations of some levels where there is a very big gap between martial to hit and spell to hit), but things like status that's inflicted, dealing damage to multiple foes... All the really neat stuff they can do are the most fun. Not to mention even single target blasts could always target saves.
i mean, the people who want single target mostly seem to also want martial to hit progression with item bonuses and such, so that frustration your refering to wouldnt really be there
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I just hope it creates the dedicated blaster caster people have been hoping for so much. I don't care if it is done though martial proficiency progression or caster DCs. If someone wants to blow stuff up and deal martial level damage, and is willing to sacrifice versatility to do it, I want to say "then play this."
Personally, I'd also really like to get something similar to a 5e warlock that also has cool at will utility. But for the health of the game, I think that is less important than having a magical damage dealer people are happy with. If they can get both of that + at will utility, all the better.
A bunch of uncommon or rare skill feats that interact in Gonzo ways with the elements and are granted access through an elemental connection either through the Kineticist class itself, or various elemental archetypes would allow for a lot of the at will utility without requiring spells of any type.
This would also allow for more options accessible to all classes with GM approval, stuff that could enable a lot of stuff like wind running, fire gazing/dancing, metal or tree speaking, etc.
I am severely opposed to just making them another wave caster. No. I'm willing to accept a kineticist that has some mandatory burn mechanic that makes them effectively tied to daily resources if I have to. I won't like it, and I won't play it, but I can accept it. A kineticist that's mucking around with spell slots, though, is a betrayal of the concept and a tragedy.
The wave casting would need to be even more limiting than normal I'd think. Something along the lines of the red mantis assassin archetype, where you can only choose from a limited sublist such as spells with the appropriate elemental traits. Feats could also expand on this, allowing for a wider variety of choices for those who want a less martially inclined kineticist.
Meant to include that in my earlier post, but it looks like I forgot.
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I am severely opposed to just making them another wave caster. No. I'm willing to accept a kineticist that has some mandatory burn mechanic that makes them effectively tied to daily resources if I have to. I won't like it, and I won't play it, but I can accept it. A kineticist that's mucking around with spell slots, though, is a betrayal of the concept and a tragedy.The wave casting would need to be even more limiting than normal I'd think. Something along the lines of the red mantis assassin archetype, where you can only choose from a limited sublist such as spells with the appropriate elemental traits. Feats could also expand on this, allowing for a wider variety of choices for those who want a less martially inclined kineticist.
Meant to include that in my earlier post, but it looks like I forgot.
Still no. Part of the point of the Kineticist is to step away from the "caster = spell slots" straightjacket and the associated bindings to standard caster spells. Any other mechanic would be preferable.
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Yeah, an important part off the Kineticist is "you should not run out of the ability to do your thing until you pass out from exhaustion."
No spell slots whatsoever. I would prefer no Focus points either. You could do "Burn" as a version of Focus like the Inventor's Unstable as in "you can do this 1-3 times with no issue, and you can do it more times if you're willing to put your body on the line." But the thing that makes you stop should be "you are unconscious" or "if you keep going you'll die" not "you ran out of metacurrency". Let the players figure out their own risk tolerance when it comes to pushing the envelope. Not every class can be for everyone, and some people like a "pain for power" loop.
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I would like everything for everyone for the Kineticist.
So the elemental Striker with 3 feat paths rather than subclasses (like Fighter and Monk) : melee, ranged and utility (maybe caster).
And a balanced mechanism where you take a great risk to temporarily obtain greater power.
Though the latter as an archetype everyone can take would be pretty cool.
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Also I am so happy that completely unrelated threads will no longer turn into the newest PF2 Kineticist thread as soon as someone mentions the class :-D
You underestimate us.
Random question, but has anyone mathed out what the effect would be if Kinetic Blast used spell attack rolls, but also did half damage on a miss? I'm curious if that would be enough to get them into the damage numbers people are looking for.
I know chip damage isn't seen as thrilling on the alchemist, but half damage might be a big enough number to make people happier.
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Also I am so happy that completely unrelated threads will no longer turn into the newest PF2 Kineticist thread as soon as someone mentions the class :-DYou underestimate us.
I predicted and have seen the death of the Paladins of Asmodeus threads once they were accidentally made RAW in PF1.
This will be the same.
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In case no one is watching the presentation atm, but Kineticist were essentially confirmed as being magical and having some means of casting spells, but not having spell slots and not being spellcasters.
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And also that it will have an entirely new framework, so probably also not a Martial, Skilled Martial, Support, or Wavecaster chassis either.
Legendary class DC perhaps?
It also sounds like the base ability is "impulse" instead of "blast", but I may be reading too far into that.
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He did say "Fire Impluse" and "Earth Impulse", so sounds like a safe bet.
Also happy to report the the new Elemental Planes of Wood and Metal with have their own Elementals, Genies, and similiar creatures, as well as their own Elemental Lords; which is very exciting. It makes me more sad that Void is seemingly being left out atm, as I would LOVE to see what a Void Genie, Elemental, and their Lord looks like!
EDIT: Oooooo! I wonder if there are new Planar Dragons!?!
I'm so excited for this book!
In case no one is watching the presentation atm, but Kineticist were essentially confirmed as being magical and having some means of casting spells, but not having spell slots and not being spellcasters.
Not sure if that means they'll be more of a caster or martial, that's still sort of up in the air, but nice to know no spell slots!
In case no one is watching the presentation atm, but Kineticist were essentially confirmed as being magical and having some means of casting spells, but not having spell slots and not being spellcasters.Not sure if that means they'll be more of a caster or martial, that's still sort of up in the air, but nice to know no spell slots!
It is hard to say. As AnimatedPaper noted, they mentioned using a new sort of framework to develop this class. So it'll be hard to tell until Monday.
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I am glad that the Kineticist
- is magical
- does not cast traditional spells.
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i mean, i dont think anyone was ever suggesting they would not be magical, like half of martials are inherently magical, and trying to logic that shooting fire was not "magic" is a fools argument... though ive seen more fooling ones here so w/e. the debate has always been "spells" vs "not spells"
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Not a surprise but the stream also confirmed that the incredible mathiness of the PF1 version is gone.
As in "this form costs n, this substance costs m, this metakinesis costs w, infusion specialization deducts x from m+n (min 0) but does not offset w, you have to gather power for that."
It sounds like metal is going to be its own element, just not in the playtest. I wonder what we call it (parallel to pyrokineticist, aerokineticist, geokineticist, etc.)
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He did say "Fire Impluse" and "Earth Impulse", so sounds like a safe bet.
Also happy to report the the new Elemental Planes of Wood and Metal with have their own Elementals, Genies, and similiar creatures, as well as their own Elemental Lords; which is very exciting. It makes me more sad that Void is seemingly being left out atm, as I would LOVE to see what a Void Genie, Elemental, and their Lord looks like!
EDIT: Oooooo! I wonder if there are new Planar Dragons!?!
I'm so excited for this book!
I'm pretty sure void would be the Negative Energy Plane. Then again we used to call wood the Positive Energy Plane-type element, so who knows now?
Also we already have wood and metal-elemental dragons; that's what the Imperial Dragons are.
Wood stems from the elements interacting with the energy of the First World in setting, and Void stems specifically from the elements interacting with the Negative Energy Plane. They are distinct from each, but rely on then to exist. As of 1e lore anyways.
And yes, while Imperial Dragons do indeed have connections to Tian's Elemental philosophy, they themselves are not Elemental Dragons. Again, distinctly different from a setting standpoint.
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I believe metal manipulation is often referred to as Ferrokenesis.
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It sounds like metal is going to be its own element, just not in the playtest. I wonder what we call it (parallel to pyrokineticist, aerokineticist, geokineticist, etc.)Probably metalkinesis. Or metallumkinesis if we continue with the [latin element]-kinesis nomenclature.
Metallokinesis. Greek, not Latin.
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I am pretty sure it will Metallicaneticist.
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Shiny-shaper, take it of leave it
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Shiny-shaper, take it of leave it
Feels like Skaven-style Ysoki Kineticist inspiration, yes-yes!
I am also pretty sure that instead of decay, it will be called distortion.
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I love that the wood element represents life... even rebirth... And metal represents decay and erosion.
Leshy with a wood elemental heritage.
Honestly a wood elemental leshy sounds like so much fun. A little Groot or multani from MTG
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I've backed the Roll For Combat Year of Monsters bit, and I'm already plotting and scheming characters. Assuming I can tolerate kineticist (I am so, so hopeful... and trying to restrain my hopes because of how they got dashed previously), I'm totally plotting a hydrokineticist slime, wood kineticist nymph, homebrewing a venom-kineticist stheno, and others.
...I'll never get to play them all. >_<
My guess is martial-like with focus points (up to master attack and master class DC), an optional burn mechanic on some feats. If CON is the main stat, I don't see it having a bigger class hp than 8.
My want is a martial/caster hybrid stat wise. Base proficiencies comparable to Magus, class DC from trained to legendary (maybe with a slighly faster proficiency rate than casters), just up to expert with weapons. CON as its main stat, blast can be done both as an attack roll for big damage or save for lesser but more consistent damage. Focus points used for modifying the blast a la Psychic (a stance swap system would be cool too, even both of them could work. I want a "build your own fireball" feel), burn feats that gives them drained for the rest of the day in exchange for powerful effects (probably like how the drained from the level 20 Knight Reclaimant dedication feat works). A bit of spell-like effects on top would be neat too.
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Shiny-shaper, take it of leave it
Okay, that made me genuinely laugh out loud. I might have to add "Kobold Shiny-shaper" to the list of Kineticists I plan to at least create.
I hope that each element gets access to a physical and energy damage type this time around. Barring that, that the mechanisms for bypassing resistances and immunities come online earlier and haven't many hoops to jump through. There's nothing quite as sad as a pyrokineticist being told that they'll be fighting devils for the next three levels.
It'd also be neat if, were this to happen, each element could have a different damage type, but I recognize that would leave some elements with more exotic, harder to resist damage types than others.
Probably not each, hard to do for fire at least
the other way around it would be hard to get non-physical attacks for earth
but I remember blueflame and rare metal infusions to deal with resistant enemies
I hope that each element gets access to a physical and energy damage type this time around. Barring that, that the mechanisms for bypassing resistances and immunities come online earlier and haven't many hoops to jump through. There's nothing quite as sad as a pyrokineticist being told that they'll be fighting devils for the next three levels.
It'd also be neat if, were this to happen, each element could have a different damage type, but I recognize that would leave some elements with more exotic, harder to resist damage types than others.
It would be reasonable to expect a mix of damage types this time around. Probably not completely free all the time, I would expect you pick one energy and one physical or something. If it is not, I'm sure feedback will demand a choice in some form. Fire - and to a lesser extent cold - will always be a more situational pick than anything else, though.
I hope that each element gets access to a physical and energy damage type this time around. Barring that, that the mechanisms for bypassing resistances and immunities come online earlier and haven't many hoops to jump through. There's nothing quite as sad as a pyrokineticist being told that they'll be fighting devils for the next three levels.
It'd also be neat if, were this to happen, each element could have a different damage type, but I recognize that would leave some elements with more exotic, harder to resist damage types than others.
Probably not each, hard to do for fire at least
the other way around it would be hard to get non-physical attacks for earth
but I remember blueflame and rare metal infusions to deal with resistant enemies
Earth has acid as its associated energy type. Fire is very tricky, though.
I mean, previously the appeal of the energy blasts was that they targeted touch AC. But that's not a thing anymore. So I'm not sure that I need another way for my metallokineticist to hit people than "with metal."
I mean, previously the appeal of the energy blasts was that they targeted touch AC. But that's not a thing anymore. So I'm not sure that I need another way for my metallokineticist to hit people than "with metal."
I don't think the options will be that forced. It would make more sense for metal to have the three main physical damage types than to shoehorn some kind of energy type in there.
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I mean, previously the appeal of the energy blasts was that they targeted touch AC. But that's not a thing anymore. So I'm not sure that I need another way for my metallokineticist to hit people than "with metal."I don't think the options will be that forced. It would make more sense for metal to have the three main physical damage types than to shoehorn some kind of energy type in there.
Metal could also include poison damage (though certainly not be default), between acid and radiation.