Thaumaturge Guide


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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Xethik wrote:

For unarmed attacks, I think getting Stumbling Stance is a very good choice for both Strength and Dexterity Thaumaturges. It works well with Regalia as well (+1 circumstance is the same as the stance gives you, but you eventually get better from Regalia), and you can use both hands for implements with it since they aren't explicitly hand-based attacks.

Kashrishi can get a 1d8 finesse horn attack which is a solid choice for a Dex thaumaturge, surprisingly. You'll probably want to start with only 16 Cha and 16 Dex.

Whether or not Stumbling Stance is hand-based is going to be at least somewhat GM-dependent. Worth noting that Wolf stance is really pretty similar, especially if you aren't intending to get Flurry of Blows and then spend two more feats after that.


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
Sanityfaerie wrote:
Xethik wrote:

For unarmed attacks, I think getting Stumbling Stance is a very good choice for both Strength and Dexterity Thaumaturges. It works well with Regalia as well (+1 circumstance is the same as the stance gives you, but you eventually get better from Regalia), and you can use both hands for implements with it since they aren't explicitly hand-based attacks.

Kashrishi can get a 1d8 finesse horn attack which is a solid choice for a Dex thaumaturge, surprisingly. You'll probably want to start with only 16 Cha and 16 Dex.

Whether or not Stumbling Stance is hand-based is going to be at least somewhat GM-dependent. Worth noting that Wolf stance is really pretty similar, especially if you aren't intending to get Flurry of Blows and then spend two more feats after that.

Fair - but worth noting for a Strength Thaumaturge, Wolf Stance is very tough on AC as you have to be unarmored.


Xethik wrote:
Fair - but worth noting for a Strength Thaumaturge, Wolf Stance is very tough on AC as you have to be unarmored.

Oh. Huh. Yeah, fair point. For anyone who is not a monk, Stumbling has real advantages that way.


For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!

Grabbing FOB at 10th level is a great boon for any unarmed build. Especially for a class with set up actions like thaumaturge. Probably best to go with 14 dex for monk dedication.


dot


aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!
Grabbing FOB at 10th level is a great boon for any unarmed build. Especially for a class with set up actions like thaumaturge. Probably best to go with 14 dex for monk dedication.

Just checking, FoB says I do two attacks and if they both hit I add the damage for resistance and weakness effects. Does each attack/damage count my damage bonuses via thaumaturge or are the bonuses only counted once in the final damage sum?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!
Grabbing FOB at 10th level is a great boon for any unarmed build. Especially for a class with set up actions like thaumaturge. Probably best to go with 14 dex for monk dedication.
Just checking, FoB says I do two attacks and if they both hit I add the damage for resistance and weakness effects. Does each attack/damage count my damage bonuses via thaumaturge or are the bonuses only counted once in the final damage sum?

Implements empowerment would add twice. Any bonus damage from weaknesses would only apply once.


aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!
Grabbing FOB at 10th level is a great boon for any unarmed build. Especially for a class with set up actions like thaumaturge. Probably best to go with 14 dex for monk dedication.
Just checking, FoB says I do two attacks and if they both hit I add the damage for resistance and weakness effects. Does each attack/damage count my damage bonuses via thaumaturge or are the bonuses only counted once in the final damage sum?
Implements empowerment would add twice. Any bonus damage from weaknesses would only apply once.

Thanks! Anyway having empowerment twice is very strong! I was thinking of focusing on Intimidate and Marshal, but the image that comes to mind of a monkey goblin jumping and frantically flapping its tail really is quite amusing!


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
aobst128 wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
For these monk feats, would it be better to go with a monk multiclass, which asks for 14 Dex 14 Str, or to go as a Martial Artist? Apart from both, is there a better option to focus on attack? I like the idea of Thaumaturge Goblin Monkey! I think it will be better to go with something simpler for the GM's delight!
Grabbing FOB at 10th level is a great boon for any unarmed build. Especially for a class with set up actions like thaumaturge. Probably best to go with 14 dex for monk dedication.
Just checking, FoB says I do two attacks and if they both hit I add the damage for resistance and weakness effects. Does each attack/damage count my damage bonuses via thaumaturge or are the bonuses only counted once in the final damage sum?
Implements empowerment would add twice. Any bonus damage from weaknesses would only apply once.
Thanks! Anyway having empowerment twice is very strong! I was thinking of focusing on Intimidate and Marshal, but the image that comes to mind of a monkey goblin jumping and frantically flapping its tail really is quite amusing!

from experience, it pairs up beautifully with regalia as an implement if you are going for Stumbling stance.

You get the +2 to your feints from the regalia and you also double up on the damage aura from them since you are making two strikes. Ends up as a very nice static bonus to your damage even if you go Dex and not Str.


shroudb wrote:

from experience, it pairs up beautifully with regalia as an implement if you are going for Stumbling stance.

You get the +2 to your feints from the regalia and you also double up on the damage aura from them since you are making two strikes. Ends up as a very nice static bonus to your damage even if you go Dex and not Str.

It's not *quite* as clean a pairing as you might think. Stumbling Stance already gives a +1 circumstance bonus to bluff that does not stack with the regalia circumstance bonus to deception, and the regalia bonus doesn't bump up to 2 until adept.

That said, yes there is a bit of synergy there.

Grand Archive

I would like some advice. How difficult / annoying is it at later levels for thaumaturge's to deal with switching back and forth between implements?

I have a mirror thaumaturge, Jinglemane, whose build you can look at if you click my avatar. I love playing him, and was considering taking regalia as a second implement, but then realized that the benefits of regalia only happen while holding the regalia. Given that I have my leiomano in one hand and my mirror in the other, I'm wondering if I should go weapon instead so that I don't have to worry about switching items back and forth in my hands, since actions are already pretty tied up as a thaumaturge.

Hmm


Jinglemane wrote:

I would like some advice. How difficult / annoying is it at later levels for thaumaturge's to deal with switching back and forth between implements?

I have a mirror thaumaturge, Jinglemane, whose build you can look at if you click my avatar. I love playing him, and was considering taking regalia as a second implement, but then realized that the benefits of regalia only happen while holding the regalia. Given that I have my leiomano in one hand and my mirror in the other, I'm wondering if I should go weapon instead so that I don't have to worry about switching items back and forth in my hands, since actions are already pretty tied up as a thaumaturge.

Hmm

The passive implements do have that issue. They can't be wielded with another implement and a weapon at the same time since they don't have a specific action tied to them except for maybe the adept tome. If you have access to a good unarmed attack, it's less of an issue. Tome is good even when it's just in your pocket. Regalia really needs to be held for it's combat benefits. I'd say go with weapon or another active implement like the bell, chalice, amulet, or wand so you don't need to worry about juggling anything.


Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

So you have a feature that lets you switch implements as part of activating an implement's action. You can put away an implement in your hand, draw your mirror and use it with only one action expenditure. It's part of your second implement feature.

RAW, passive implements (Regalia, Tome, Lantern) cannot utilize this feature at all, which makes using them trickier (i.e. bad).

But if you, say, pick the Chalice, you can swap between them essentially at-will whenever you use their actions.

Grand Archive

I'm a poppet. No natural attacks, and the way that I 'bite' people is by hitting them with my leiomano (a club covered in shark teeth.) So I'll pick up weapon, and reconsider the whole Marshal dedication that I was thinking about for him, since at 5th level I'll suddenly have attack of opportunity anyway.

I realize that my weapon is so beloved for this character that it makes total sense that it would become one of his implements. I'll save regalia for my other thaumaturge, a grig sprite with ranged sonic attacks coming off his cricket legs. This will make them both distinctive.

Thanks for your advice!
Hmm


So something I noticed about Root to Life that is nice compared to stabilize. It works with undead and doesn't have the positive trait. Its worth noting especially with undead PCs.


Hello friends, just out of curiosity, in your view, what would a good Wand Thaumaturge build look like? Just playing around in Pathbuilder I made a human with Wand and using a scorpion whip, the idea is to stay away from the target, but in whip range, and use the wand, that is, after using all my Thaum tricks. But what other ideas would you have? Thanks!


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Hello friends, just out of curiosity, in your view, what would a good Wand Thaumaturge build look like? Just playing around in Pathbuilder I made a human with Wand and using a scorpion whip, the idea is to stay away from the target, but in whip range, and use the wand, that is, after using all my Thaum tricks. But what other ideas would you have? Thanks!

The idea I've been playing with is kitsune wand/tome/regalia thaum, using regalia in one hand, and alternating between tome as the start of the round for the free RK, then swapping to the wand to fling magic. Overall, the general idea is to have an offensive turn of throwing a foxfire, then flinging magic, while supporting though the free RKs and the passive bonuses from regalia. Combining with marshal, I'll have a lot of passive boosts to myself and allies for simply existing, making me a really solid midline support, even though most of my actions are attacking.

Out of combat, my tome lets me prep relevant skills to the adventure, and regalia turns Follow the Expert into a super aid. Diverse Lore also makes me exceptionally good at researching, and marshal gives me a freebie boost to Diplomacy, so I'll be helpful in almost any exploration and downtime task as well.

I don't believe it'll be the strongest, but I will be versatile, and the wand provides pretty reliable damage


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Hello friends, just out of curiosity, in your view, what would a good Wand Thaumaturge build look like? Just playing around in Pathbuilder I made a human with Wand and using a scorpion whip, the idea is to stay away from the target, but in whip range, and use the wand, that is, after using all my Thaum tricks. But what other ideas would you have? Thanks!

Ranged weapons compliment the wand nicely. Either thrown weapons or an air repeater are nice. The bell implement pairs nicely with wand since you can make things clumsy to reduce dex saves.


Good to has some free Thaumaturge guide stuff out there for PF2e, John R. ;)


Would it be interesting a monkey goblin, using wand and then regalia? I know the action economy is tight, but could I (even within reach of a who knows, possible AoO) attack with the tail, attack with the wand and both have the damage bonuses of Regalia?


Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Would it be interesting a monkey goblin, using wand and then regalia? I know the action economy is tight, but could I (even within reach of a who knows, possible AoO) attack with the tail, attack with the wand and both have the damage bonuses of Regalia?

Sure, I don't see why not. This should work with any unarmed attack that does not require a free hand, whether they be from an ancestry such as the monkey goblin tail or Kashrishi horn, a stance such as stumbling stance or dragon stance, or even another source like an archetype. As mentioned, you can use this with ranged unarmed attacks like foxfire.

Unarmed attacks work great with Flurry of Blows from the Monk archetype for this as well. Even though you only add weakness once with it, you increase the odds of getting at least one hit (and might get two) while still adding the wand damage on as well.


Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Would it be interesting a monkey goblin, using wand and then regalia? I know the action economy is tight, but could I (even within reach of a who knows, possible AoO) attack with the tail, attack with the wand and both have the damage bonuses of Regalia?

Sure, I don't see why not. This should work with any unarmed attack that does not require a free hand, whether they be from an ancestry such as the monkey goblin tail or Kashrishi horn, a stance such as stumbling stance or dragon stance, or even another source like an archetype. As mentioned, you can use this with ranged unarmed attacks like foxfire.

Unarmed attacks work great with Flurry of Blows from the Monk archetype for this as well. Even though you only add weakness once with it, you increase the odds of getting at least one hit (and might get two) while still adding the wand damage on as well.

Taking advantage of your answer, Foxfire and Seedpod benefit from Exploit Vulnerability and Implement's Empowerment right?


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Xethik wrote:
LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Would it be interesting a monkey goblin, using wand and then regalia? I know the action economy is tight, but could I (even within reach of a who knows, possible AoO) attack with the tail, attack with the wand and both have the damage bonuses of Regalia?

Sure, I don't see why not. This should work with any unarmed attack that does not require a free hand, whether they be from an ancestry such as the monkey goblin tail or Kashrishi horn, a stance such as stumbling stance or dragon stance, or even another source like an archetype. As mentioned, you can use this with ranged unarmed attacks like foxfire.

Unarmed attacks work great with Flurry of Blows from the Monk archetype for this as well. Even though you only add weakness once with it, you increase the odds of getting at least one hit (and might get two) while still adding the wand damage on as well.
Taking advantage of your answer, Foxfire and Seedpod benefit from Exploit Vulnerability and Implement's Empowerment right?

Yes. Those work with both as long as you are meeting the requirements of implements empowerment.


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Another fun one is torch goblin's scalding spit. A shame that it's 9th level. Grab yourself a lantern implement as a torch and go to town as a fire breathing mystic masochist.


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aobst128 wrote:
Another fun one is torch goblin's scalding spit. A shame that it's 9th level. Grab yourself a lantern implement as a torch and go to town as a fire breathing mystic masochist.

That sounds a little sadistic...but deliciously funny!


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If an implement is worn (like a crown for regalia) does this mean you can't use it for implements empowerment? Or are you going to take it off and wave it around? What if my Regalia is "a robe of office?"

Am I thinking too hard about this? Should it just be "as long as your hand is spoken for, you count as holding your regalia even if it's practically impossible to hold"?


Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

If you're going to houserule regalia to let it be a thing that can just be worn and have any effect, instead of having to be held, you should houserule any side questions that come from that decision.


PossibleCabbage wrote:

If an implement is worn (like a crown for regalia) does this mean you can't use it for implements empowerment? Or are you going to take it off and wave it around? What if my Regalia is "a robe of office?"

Am I thinking too hard about this? Should it just be "as long as your hand is spoken for, you count as holding your regalia even if it's practically impossible to hold"?

All implements must be held to benefit from implements empowerment and exploit vulnerability. Unfortunately, the ability to effectively hold your implements even when not holding them is only for implements that have a specific action/reaction tied to them. Passive implements don't work with them.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Passive implements are so much worse when it comes to action economy I'm honestly not even sure if it's intended.

Like RAW is obvious but it feels weird that they're just built to be so much clunkier when that whole subsystem was created specifically to make implement swapping not awful.

Not really relevant for a guide though I guess.


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Squiggit wrote:

Passive implements are so much worse when it comes to action economy I'm honestly not even sure if it's intended.

Like RAW is obvious but it feels weird that they're just built to be so much clunkier when that whole subsystem was created specifically to make implement swapping not awful.

Not really relevant for a guide though I guess.

That's not totally true; second implement lets you swap an implement for free to use a sotred implement's action, and both base lantern and adept tome have free actions, allowing you to swap them in pretty pain free; the adept tomes free action RK might be locked to start of turn, but if you need the tome out to do RK again, theres no reason you can't just roll it before swapping to another implement. The lantern can be lit or extinguished once per turn as a free action, so if you ever need it's benefit, you just swap to it and light it as a free action.

It's really only the Regalia that has the issues with swapping, since it's only actions are Intensify Vulnerability, but the Thaumaturge has so many feats for letting hands that are carrying Implements to pull double duty, so it's not like you can't have the fancy scepter in one hand, weapon in the other


Alchemic_Genius wrote:
Squiggit wrote:

Passive implements are so much worse when it comes to action economy I'm honestly not even sure if it's intended.

Like RAW is obvious but it feels weird that they're just built to be so much clunkier when that whole subsystem was created specifically to make implement swapping not awful.

Not really relevant for a guide though I guess.

That's not totally true; second implement lets you swap an implement for free to use a sotred implement's action, and both base lantern and adept tome have free actions, allowing you to swap them in pretty pain free; the adept tomes free action RK might be locked to start of turn, but if you need the tome out to do RK again, theres no reason you can't just roll it before swapping to another implement. The lantern can be lit or extinguished once per turn as a free action, so if you ever need it's benefit, you just swap to it and light it as a free action.

It's really only the Regalia that has the issues with swapping, since it's only actions are Intensify Vulnerability, but the Thaumaturge has so many feats for letting hands that are carrying Implements to pull double duty, so it's not like you can't have the fancy scepter in one hand, weapon in the other

I've thought about the tome's adept action but I completely forgot that the Lantern has an action too. Still awkward for tome for level 5 and 6 or 5-10 if you don't grab the adept upgrade. Regalia is left out completely though.


Just to be clear, and I don't miss the rule, if I have a wand in one hand, a hand crossbow in the other, and a bell around my waist, within range of the bell's reaction, if I am attacked, I can react with the bell ,(exchanging it for the wand), and after the resolution of the reaction, exchange it again for the wand?


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Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Pathfinder Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game, Starfinder Society Subscriber

Exchange the wand for the bell as part of using the bell reaction.

Exchange the bell for the wand again as part of using the action to fling magic with the wand.


LordeAlvenaharr wrote:
Just to be clear, and I don't miss the rule, if I have a wand in one hand, a hand crossbow in the other, and a bell around my waist, within range of the bell's reaction, if I am attacked, I can react with the bell ,(exchanging it for the wand), and after the resolution of the reaction, exchange it again for the wand?

Basically. Although not in that order. You would only be able to swap back to the wand when you use fling magic. Effectively allowing you to wield both simultaneously.


Ah ok, entendi. De qualquer forma,eu poderia em minha vez de agir trocar o sino pela varinha e usá-la normalmente,estou decidindo se uso varinha+hand crossbow,perdendo o bônus de dano de Regalia mas economizando ações pois não vou precisar ficar andando pelo grid,(em tese...),atrás do meu alvo,ou se vou de ataque natural+varinha,tendo uma mão livre para regalia,mas me expondo mais e ocasionalmente tendo que me mover para ir atrás do alvo,o que custa uma ação,mas causarei mais dano... dúvida cruel...


Pathfinder LO Special Edition, Maps, Pathfinder Accessories, PF Special Edition Subscriber; Pathfinder Roleplaying Game Superscriber; Starfinder Superscriber

Wakarimasen.


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Ed Reppert wrote:
Wakarimasen.

I'm more shirimasen (しりません).

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