Thaumaturge Guide


Pathfinder Second Edition General Discussion

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John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.

As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

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QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.
As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

I could be mistaken but between Scroll Thaumaturgy and Scroll Esoterica, don't scrolls count as esoterica (or at least the temporary scrolls)? If so, then it should still work. But yeah, overall my idea is reaching quite a lot.

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Updated the Implement Combination section to be a bit more in depth and cover every combination. Forewarning, about half of them have no synergy, unless someone can point out something I missed.


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A couple combos that I thought of:

Bell + Wand: Making a foe clumsy means their reflex save are worse.

Bell + Weapon: Similarly, a clumsy foe has lower AC.

Lantern + Wand: This one only works at the end of your adventuring career, but you don't roll a flat check to target a concealed target with an AoE attack. Reveal any invisible foes with the lantern, and then drop a mini-fireball/icestorm/lightning surprise on them.

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

Regalia + Weapon: The Regalia's Paragon Aura is buffing your weapon damage rolls, including the damage from Implement's Interruption (assuming you're holding your regalia in one hand and your implement weapon in the other, and why wouldn't you?).


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John R. wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.
As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

I could be mistaken but between Scroll Thaumaturgy and Scroll Esoterica, don't scrolls count as esoterica (or at least the temporary scrolls)? If so, then it should still work. But yeah, overall my idea is reaching quite a lot.

Scroll Esoterica says that your esoterica includes the scraps that you make into the scrolls. The feat is labeled esoterica because it's a feat to make temporary scrolls, and you can't make temporary scrolls if all your materials are confiscated.

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Ventnor wrote:

A couple combos that I thought of:

Bell + Wand: Making a foe clumsy means their reflex save are worse.

Bell + Weapon: Similarly, a clumsy foe has lower AC.

Lantern + Wand: This one only works at the end of your adventuring career, but you don't roll a flat check to target a concealed target with an AoE attack. Reveal any invisible foes with the lantern, and then drop a mini-fireball/icestorm/lightning surprise on them.

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

Regalia + Weapon: The Regalia's Paragon Aura is buffing your weapon damage rolls, including the damage from Implement's Interruption (assuming you're holding your regalia in one hand and your implement weapon in the other, and why wouldn't you?).

Awesome! Thank you!

But about this one:

Ventnor wrote:

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

These just don't seem like actual synergies for the implements.

You don't need the weapon implement to flank with yourself if you already have the mirror and I don't think you can really double up on areas where your EV target can trigger Implement's Interruption. Like...if they're within reach, they're within reach.

Although, they do combo nicely if you need to be somewhere else at the same time, so I'll give you that if that's what you meant.


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John R. wrote:
Ventnor wrote:

A couple combos that I thought of:

Bell + Wand: Making a foe clumsy means their reflex save are worse.

Bell + Weapon: Similarly, a clumsy foe has lower AC.

Lantern + Wand: This one only works at the end of your adventuring career, but you don't roll a flat check to target a concealed target with an AoE attack. Reveal any invisible foes with the lantern, and then drop a mini-fireball/icestorm/lightning surprise on them.

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

Regalia + Weapon: The Regalia's Paragon Aura is buffing your weapon damage rolls, including the damage from Implement's Interruption (assuming you're holding your regalia in one hand and your implement weapon in the other, and why wouldn't you?).

Awesome! Thank you!

But about this one:

Ventnor wrote:

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

These just don't seem like actual synergies for the implements.

You don't need the weapon implement to flank with yourself if you already have the mirror and I don't think you can really double up on areas where your EV target can trigger Implement's Interruption. Like...if they're within reach, they're within reach.

Although, they do combo nicely if you need to be somewhere else at the same time, so I'll give you that if that's what you meant.

Flanking with yourself (orthogonally, not diagonally) with a weapon implement means that stepping won't get them out of reaction range. It makes non-reach weapon implements a lot more effective.

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QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Wait....Idea....What if one hand is constantly holding an implement and ALL of your scrolls? Is there a limit on how many esoterica you can have in one hand? I really don't think this works but it's worth the shot of throwing it out there.
As mentioned above, you would lose out on Implement's Empowerment bonus damage even if you get your GM to allow it.

"You don't gain the benefit of implement's empowerment if you are holding anything in either hand other than a single one-handed weapon, other implements, or esoterica, and you must be holding at least one implement to gain the benefit."

I could be mistaken but between Scroll Thaumaturgy and Scroll Esoterica, don't scrolls count as esoterica (or at least the temporary scrolls)? If so, then it should still work. But yeah, overall my idea is reaching quite a lot.

Scroll Esoterica says that your esoterica includes the scraps that you make into the scrolls. The feat is labeled esoterica because it's a feat to make temporary scrolls, and you can't make temporary scrolls if all your materials are confiscated.

Fair enough. Sound argument.

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QuidEst wrote:
John R. wrote:
Ventnor wrote:

A couple combos that I thought of:

Bell + Wand: Making a foe clumsy means their reflex save are worse.

Bell + Weapon: Similarly, a clumsy foe has lower AC.

Lantern + Wand: This one only works at the end of your adventuring career, but you don't roll a flat check to target a concealed target with an AoE attack. Reveal any invisible foes with the lantern, and then drop a mini-fireball/icestorm/lightning surprise on them.

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

Regalia + Weapon: The Regalia's Paragon Aura is buffing your weapon damage rolls, including the damage from Implement's Interruption (assuming you're holding your regalia in one hand and your implement weapon in the other, and why wouldn't you?).

Awesome! Thank you!

But about this one:

Ventnor wrote:

Mirror + Weapon: Mirror lets you flank with yourself, and to be in more positions to react with Implement's Interruption.

These just don't seem like actual synergies for the implements.

You don't need the weapon implement to flank with yourself if you already have the mirror and I don't think you can really double up on areas where your EV target can trigger Implement's Interruption. Like...if they're within reach, they're within reach.

Although, they do combo nicely if you need to be somewhere else at the same time, so I'll give you that if that's what you meant.

Flanking with yourself (orthogonally, not diagonally) with a weapon implement means that stepping won't get them out of reaction range. It makes non-reach weapon implements a lot more effective.

Ooo, that's a good and clever one. Thank you.


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John R. wrote:


Ooo, that's a good and clever one. Thank you.

I'm fond of it, because I'll take any additional alternatives to the thrice-accursed game-warping mess that is flickmace.

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I'm sure a bunch of people are all into the Kineticist playtest right now. Just wanted to mention I've made a few updates, mainly to some multiclass opinions. Also wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions on other topics you think I should cover. Just a heads up, one I won't cover is ancestries. There are too many and they all have their own bunch of feats and it's just too much for me to want to handle, especially for such an open ended class as the Thaumaturge.

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John R. wrote:
I'm sure a bunch of people are all into the Kineticist playtest right now. Just wanted to mention I've made a few updates, mainly to some multiclass opinions. Also wanted to see if anyone had any suggestions on other topics you think I should cover. Just a heads up, one I won't cover is ancestries. There are too many and they all have their own bunch of feats and it's just too much for me to want to handle, especially for such an open ended class as the Thaumaturge.

The only ancestry that I think really needs a call out is plain old human.

The Thaumaturge is in the rare position of having several very desirable 1st level class feats. Natural Ambition really shines here.


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Weapon selection might not be a bad section. You know, once you get past the obligatory “just get a flickmace you doofus” disclaimer.

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Ventnor wrote:
Weapon selection might not be a bad section. You know, once you get past the obligatory “just get a flickmace you doofus” disclaimer.

Yeah.

I playtested with a returning trident weapon implement, that was quite something.

The thaumaturge also seems like a good class to use a whip if you want to splash in some es-Indiana Jones flavor.


John R. wrote:

I wrote a guide for the Thaumaturge. Apologies for typos and minor misunderstandings of the rules. I'll try my best to keep it updated and correct any errors people find and add any suggestions I'm in favor of - I'm sure there will be plenty once more people get real play experience and after errata. I'll try my best to remember to give credit where it's due.

Also, I believe VampByDay is putting out a guide soon as well so keep your eyes out for theirs as well.

Here is the link.

One thing I would like to point out:

You can't actually stop someone from getting up from prone with a reaction like AoO. It happens after the standing is complete. You still get the attack, but they aren't prone during it (so not Flatfooted) and don't fall back down if you disrupt it...because it can't be disrupted, it's already done.

Also, have you considered ancestry breakdowns for the guide? At least like "these have good no-hand unarmed attacks, these have innate spells that you may be interested in" type of thing.


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I'd rate Beastmaster higher than green because Thaum seems action starved and this could give you basically a free stride each turn.

Especially if you have amulet to protect your mount from attacks.

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Sinnyil wrote:
John R. wrote:

I wrote a guide for the Thaumaturge. Apologies for typos and minor misunderstandings of the rules. I'll try my best to keep it updated and correct any errors people find and add any suggestions I'm in favor of - I'm sure there will be plenty once more people get real play experience and after errata. I'll try my best to remember to give credit where it's due.

Also, I believe VampByDay is putting out a guide soon as well so keep your eyes out for theirs as well.

Here is the link.

One thing I would like to point out:

You can't actually stop someone from getting up from prone with a reaction like AoO. It happens after the standing is complete. You still get the attack, but they aren't prone during it (so not Flatfooted) and don't fall back down if you disrupt it...because it can't be disrupted, it's already done.

Also, have you considered ancestry breakdowns for the guide? At least like "these have good no-hand unarmed attacks, these have innate spells that you may be interested in" type of thing.

With Attack of Opportunity, yes, it does not disrupt move actions. Implement's Interruption on the other hand disrupts any action that triggered the reaction, move actions included, and standing is a move action.

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shroudb wrote:

I'd rate Beastmaster higher than green because Thaum seems action starved and this could give you basically a free stride each turn.

Especially if you have amulet to protect your mount from attacks.

Yeah, you've got a good point about that. Noted.

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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Added a weapon TRAITS section at the end.

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