It’s the alternate reality flavor I’m choking on. If it was, say, moving bits of the inner planes (especially first world and shadow plane), then I’d have zero issues.
I get to read Dark Archive tonight, so I’ll see if there’s options that address that narrative space.
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I think it's more likely that we get a Starfinder 1.5e (implementing some of the Pathfinder 2e mechanics, like the 3 action system) before we get a Pathfinder supplement that encroaches on Starfinder territory.
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Another side note: If Mystics are Divine, Technomancers Arcane, and Precogs make the most sense as Occult (time-wimey being firmly in that wheelhouse), can primal stretch to cover Witchwarper? Flavor would admittedly be weird, but looking at the actual abilities and spell list, which are both chock full of environmental effects, elemental damage, and some healing, it is not as wild as I first assumed."Primal's gotten weird over the years."
Like, "there have been strange shifts in the fundamental nature of things" is a classic way to add some extra creepy to your sci-fi universe. Why couldn't we see the Primal power source itself twist its nature?
TBF, Primal Magic is the Magic of the Natural World, it never specified it had to be the magic of this Natural World.
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I think it's more likely that we get a Starfinder 1.5e (implementing some of the Pathfinder 2e mechanics, like the 3 action system) before we get a Pathfinder supplement that encroaches on Starfinder territory.
How about both? A PF2 supplement with science fantasy material and Solarian + say, Witchwarper classes (+ robotz with lasors) that's also a sneak peek of upcoming SF2?
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I just feel like anything like that would really cannibalize what's already a much more niche product line.
And frankly, there are a lot of things that I enjoy about Starfinder as they currently stand that would be lost in translation to the PF2 framework, at least if you aimed for parity.
Are there things absolutely worth bringing over from PF2, and overhauling on their own merits? Abso-freaking-lutely. But Paizo has been very insistent that there are no plans for a 2e of Starfinder, and their current 'big experimental shakeup' - the Drift Crisis - is still ongoing (has only just began, matter of fact).
How many years did we have Pathfinder, before Starfinder came out?
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How many years did we have Pathfinder, before Starfinder came out?
Pathfinder the game system? 8 years. The campaign setting? 9 years.
Starfinder is only half-way through its theoretical lifespan (if compared to PF1E). I'm sure it's got plenty of good work ahead of it.
I also feel like paizo learned a lot from first edition and hasn't made a lot of the same issues with starfinder that made 1e problematic. Things like bloat and balance are a lot more controlled with starfinder, there is less need for a new edition, imo.
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Are there things absolutely worth bringing over from PF2, and overhauling on their own merits? Abso-freaking-lutely.
I’m actually more interested in the reverse. There’s plenty of locations, classes, and equipment I would dearly love to see make their way into Pathfinder 2. I would also like to see the Theme/Species mechanic presented as an alternate to Ancestry/Background, where Themes get all the higher level feats and Species is something you pick at level 1 and then you’re done.
With today being a week out from Gen Con, I'm a little surprised we didn't get the playtest announcement blog post.
With today being a week out from Gen Con, I'm a little surprised we didn't get the playtest announcement blog post.
My feeling is that if we get a playtest from the GenCon material, it won't be until September.
Even with all the playtest hints, plans can always change.
With today being a week out from Gen Con, I'm a little surprised we didn't get the playtest announcement blog post.My feeling is that if we get a playtest from the GenCon material, it won't be until September.
Even with all the playtest hints, plans can always change.
Why the delay? Every other Gen Con playtest has dropped right after, right?
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I also feel like paizo learned a lot from first edition and hasn't made a lot of the same issues with starfinder that made 1e problematic. Things like bloat and balance are a lot more controlled with starfinder, there is less need for a new edition, imo.
Would love for them to throw Starfinder's godawful favored skill system right out an airlock though.
I would also like to see the Theme/Species mechanic presented as an alternate to Ancestry/Background, where Themes get all the higher level feats and Species is something you pick at level 1 and then you’re done.
I would kind of love this. Flipping backgrounds and ancestries on their head to make the former something you can build upon instead sounds like it'd be really fun.
Plus while I really like the ancestry system in general I feel like there are still some uncomfortable edges that wouldn't exist if things were twisted around like that.
Why the delay? Every other Gen Con playtest has dropped right after, right?With today being a week out from Gen Con, I'm a little surprised we didn't get the playtest announcement blog post.My feeling is that if we get a playtest from the GenCon material, it won't be until September.
Even with all the playtest hints, plans can always change.
I believe Secrets of Magic was closer to a month after. Guns & Gears as well as Dark Archive were more immediate, but that doesn't mean the timing works out every time.
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I assumed we would get the playtest announcement tomorrow, since it'll be Friday. Since they don't make blog posts on the weekends, it would give them two solid days of speculation that I'm sure they will enjoy watching. It would be a great way to end the week.
Rest assured, it was all but confirmed (and I believe literally confirmed) in some of the chats during PaizoCon that a playtest would be at GenCon. I'd be surprised if we didn't.
Why the delay? Every other Gen Con playtest has dropped right after, right?With today being a week out from Gen Con, I'm a little surprised we didn't get the playtest announcement blog post.My feeling is that if we get a playtest from the GenCon material, it won't be until September.
Even with all the playtest hints, plans can always change.
And to follow up since I realize I did not really answer: I think they like giving a least a month heads up for class playtests so that people can ready playtest games and get organized for it.
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If you consider the confirmation at PaizoCon as being accurate, than that would put us over a month.
Also, I think it is safe to assume that the more recent trends supercede the later ones, especially considering that was the first playtest. They were still sort of figuring it out at the time.
That said, there really is no telling. Could be tomorrow just as much as it could be the last day of GenCon. We just have to wait. :p
If you consider the confirmation at PaizoCon as being accurate, than that would put us over a month.
Also, I think it is safe to assume that the more recent trends supercede the later ones, especially considering that was the first playtest. They were still sort of figuring it out at the time.
That said, there really is no telling. Could be tomorrow just as much as it could be the last day of GenCon. We just have to wait. :p
Well they tend to give specific dates for playtest announcements.
I was under the impression that is what was being discussed here.
Presumably, today, they will announce, officially, that there will in fact be a playtest presented at GenCon, and won't discuss anything aside from the fact that it will be there.
Then, at GenCon, they will reveal what the playtest is over, discuss it in more detail, then give the timeframe for which the playtest will take place between.
That was my assumption.
I was under the impression that is what was being discussed here.
Presumably, today, they will announce, officially, that there will in fact be a playtest presented at GenCon, and won't discuss anything aside from the fact that it will be there.
Then, at GenCon, they will reveal what the playtest is over, discuss it in more detail, then give the timeframe for which the playtest will take place between.
That was my assumption.
I see I see. That seems plausible to me, but I don't think the playtest will be set until very late August/September in that case. Could happen, though!
Not to be terribly negative but with much of the GenCon prep being done very recently and a bit less emphasis towards it makes me think we may see a smaller presence and correspondingly smaller announcements this year.
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Idk. I was fairly certain we would see some major announcements at PaizoCon. Don't get me wrong, definitely had some great stuff there. But it was rather miniscule as far as big announcements and products going into next year. So I am personally expecting GenCon to have some really satisfying and crazy stuff.
I could be being overly optimistic. But I don't have any reason to believe less, so I'm choosing not to. :p
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It's probably safe to assume next summers rulebook will be announced, and the next ap after what's already been announced. Beyond that I wouldn't expect too much, maaaybe the next lost omens book
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What were thw actual announcements from PaizoCon again? Like, the brand new ones, not including special additions.
I recall Treasure Vault, Gatwalkers AP, and some Starfinder Modules were the only things I recall being truly new. Everything else was soft announced prior through the website, iirc.
So a new Rulebook, AP, and potential LO is considerable more substantial, imo. And that is only including Pathfinder announcements.
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Went back to look at the last class playtest announcement and I can’t help but notice my first guess was a book with an Occultist and a Psychic, so I’m feeling pretty puffed up about that.
I’ve basically convinced myself that this coming year is Primal-themed with a Broken Lands emphasis, even though it’s not what I personally want. Getting a revised Shaman would be a nice treat, but I’m worried that I’m facing down yet another year of not really enjoying the Divine options available to me.
Primal is the only tradition that hasn't gotten a single-tradition spellcaster since core, so from that perspective it seems possible.
I'm a little more skeptical on 'primal themed book' though, since Paizo doesn't really seem super interested in basing an entire book around one magic tradition.
Primal is the only tradition that hasn't gotten a single-tradition spellcaster since core, so from that perspective it seems possible.
I'm a little more skeptical on 'primal themed book' though, since Paizo doesn't really seem super interested in basing an entire book around one magic tradition.
Think more broadly about what that theme could be - Dark Archive was about spooky stuff that’s all in a similar genre space to the occult tradition, and gave us both a new occult caster and a revised 1e occult class who is a scholar of the mysterious and forbidden.
A “primal” book has potential room for the natural world, wilderness exploration, elemental magic and the elemental planes, and they fey. Just glancing at the primal spell list, Summon Giant and Summon Kaiju are both primal-exclusive spells - so giants and kaiju might also have a place here as titans of natural life.
I assumed it would be a book about either the natural world as a whole or the Inner Planes.
It's definitely a reach and there's no precedent for it, but it would be cool if the next book was a planar book and the January (?) Ap that's a plane hopping mystery type ap was a mix of dark archive and said planar book.
I assumed it would be a book about either the natural world as a whole or the Inner Planes.
The First World is connected to the Primal tradition (after all, it was the druid in 1e that had all the fae stuff), and I'm always game for First World stuff.
It's definitely a reach and there's no precedent for it, but it would be cool if the next book was a planar book and the January (?) Ap that's a plane hopping mystery type ap was a mix of dark archive and said planar book.
Is it a plane-hopping AP? I didn't see anything like that on the store pages for the first two volumes.
Sorry maybe I am remembering it wrong, I thought that's how I remembered gatewalkers being described.
They did kind of elude to the idea of going to other planes, iirc. Idk if it was meant to sound as Planescape-lite as it kind of sounds like.
That said, they could still go that direction, and make the next couple AP's take place across planes. Would easily justify a Planar book.
Also, I currently have no reason to believe this to be factual; but I assume/hope that books for the First World and other planes would be their own thing. I'm personally kind of over the whole every other Plane being overtly mysterious or having no solid information about them. I don't need like every inch of the planes covered. But some solid information that isn't split between every single book ever would be nice.
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Missed this post before now, but it brought up some interesting points that I want to chat about.
There's plenty of space to be adventurous with wave casters. You have an entire half-class to play with.
You actually have almost an entire class to play with. Wave casting doesn’t seem to take up much of a class budget.
We've also had the gunslinger and the inventor around now for a decent length of time, but I don't really feel like there's anything there that particularly points at paths to grow out from? I kind of feel like each of them is their own thing - they've reached their destination, and there isn't really anything past it.
So, gunslinger I tend to agree. It would be good to get some Sling action into that framework, but that’s at most a class archetype. Honestly I think it should just be erratated, or be made a leave 1 class feat. They feel more like an extension of the fighter class.
Although, that said, perhaps other weapon types or fighting styles might get a class focused around them. I can’t think of any offhand that might need one, as Monks and Gunslingers exist, but I’m sure others have a pain point that would benefit. Perhaps an Armiger class for medium armor characters?
But INVENTORS? Oh, there’s plenty to be mined there. As I see it, inventors were the first foray into a class that messes around with traits, as it’s main class features were to add new traits onto a weapon, armor, or add stats to a minion. And I feel it was largely successful. Future classes don’t necessarily need to keep the steampunk flavor, but a Biohacker that adds to an alliy’s stats or traits? An Arcanist that can substitute and add on traits to their spells (now that we have a framework for that in the psychic)? A Runesmith seems like a great narrative space to occupy if you wanted to make a more magical flavored “inventor,” perhaps with wave casting instead of Overdrive.
And all that’s before getting more innovations, like a helmet, a spanner, or even a modifiable cantrip (I posited an Aeon stone innovation during the playtest, that seems like an obvious path for it).
For me the most exciting thing about the Inventor was that it was a martial that started exploring the idea of unique new attacks.
Things like Explode, Megavolt, and Deep Freeze are really interesting abilities that start working with PF2's action economy and feat system in a way that they've been fairly cautious about (contrast with power attack or swipe) with other classes. That's the area I want to see them dig into more in the future. Classes that just have toolboxes of unique activities at their disposal.
TBH I was expecting the Thaumaturge to push into this space a bit more, but what we got is still good.
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Beyond the possibility of the much-requested Inquisitor, Kineticist, or Shaman (which would effectively be a new class) I don't really know what to expect; I think we'll end up with a new themed monster book announced alongside the class book--
Fey seems like the most obvious direction to go in after undead, but its possible something else was on the menu, as I remember Mark mentioning wanting to push for it, which makes somewhat less sense since they chart the books a couple of years out.
A book oriented toward more traditional Martials would be pretty rad at this point in the game's lifespan (maybe including the Inquisitor in a warfare and espionage type book?) or a book centered on humanoid opposition-- basically an over the top expansion to the NPCs in the GMG.
If they were willing to, say, cross the streams on class books and monster books, we could get a book with an expanded elemental bestiary and the Kineticist. But since I'm not sure what else they could stick class wise, that would almost require them to stagger the classes across two books, unless we were only getting one for some reason. That's not crazy since it could result in all kinds of distributions of other content-- say if they needed to find space for class feats for existing classes or something.
I wasn't expecting Treasure Vault (which is really cool) at all, though, so they could really surprise me.
A Humanoid centric book might be a good place for another Ancestry book if you ask me. Take all the random Humanoid people that may not fit into any themed book, make them an Ancestry, and have a series Bestiary section that includes them and various other Humanoids that may not make viable Ancestries. Boom.
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A Humanoid centric book might be a good place for another Ancestry book if you ask me. Take all the random Humanoid people that may not fit into any themed book, make them an Ancestry, and have a series Bestiary section that includes them and various other Humanoids that may not make viable Ancestries. Boom.
You could, but I'm thinking more about monster statblocks for people with an emphasis on their learned abilities, a buddy and I were talking about it, and we realize we want more inventive and interesting ability kits for people along the lines of the Assassin they aren't that hard to make with the guidelines, but it's much easier to just dive into the bestiaries and grab a monster-- which has weakened our distribution for things like "dedicated spellcasters" in favor of more traditional monsters, that may or may not have a couple of spells in their back pocket.
Though looking just now helped me find this I wonder if there's any foundry modules to bridge that json in...
Well, you can theoretically build any NPC by taking what stats we have a swapping things like Ancestry and Feat choice. But yea, we could certainly some quicker and easier means of making NPC's on the fly. I just don't see them making just a book of nothing but NPC's. So, why not take the opportunity to add some player side mechanics as well?
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We had several codexes; Monster, Villain, 2 NPC Codexes. I actually would love to have a couple of those for Pathfinder 2. Monster and Villain also had some player options, so I would assume a PF2 version would have the same.
Might be more of a LO offering though.
Well, you can theoretically build any NPC by taking what stats we have a swapping things like Ancestry and Feat choice. But yea, we could certainly some quicker and easier means of making NPC's on the fly. I just don't see them making just a book of nothing but NPC's. So, why not take the opportunity to add some player side mechanics as well?
Agree, I was thinking of a Book of the Dead style affair with class feats for various classes, coupled with a bestiary section emphasizing humanoid NPCs, interesting spellcasters and martials to face off against.
In PF2, thus far, the 2 codex style books are are more than just statistical blocks. Both Legends and Monsters if Myth are rife with lore first and foremost. Along side that is a measure of player facing content. Given the direction each book has had since 2e was released, and the evolution they are continually undergoing, I simply do not see any sort of "Oops, all NPC's and Monsters" book. There is going to be an overarching theme to it that allows them to capitalize on what all can be presented within its bindings.
I'm not yucking anyone else's desire to how more NPC statistics. What I'm saying it any book that features that as a major point in it isn't going to be just that. And I'd be willing to bet my subscriptions on that. The direction they've taken their products is pretty clear in that regard. It is exactly why they moved away from Bestiaries. Heck, even the equipment book we are getting is going to be more than "here is a bunch of items". They are intentionally tying it to the settings lore.
Well no crap.
I really don’t like being talked down to as if I’m an idiot, or just unaware of how PF2 rulebooks have developed, so please dial it back a bit.
What I had in mind was something like the villain codex, which did mix a hefty dollop of lore and world building, as well as character options, alongside a bunch of NPC statblocks. Perhaps a sprinkling of NPCs that fit a certain kind of role, like we saw in the GMG, but fleshed out further so they are more firmly placed in Golarian.
Another book fleshing out minor factions unlikely to get a full book, like the Order of the Palatine Eye, I could see as a LO book. An archetype and common items associated with these factions would draw in players, as well as lots of lore about being a member or enemy of these factions.
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Another book fleshing out minor factions unlikely to get a full book, like the Order of the Palatine Eye, I could see as a LO book. An archetype and common items associated with these factions would draw in players, as well as lots of lore about being a member or enemy of these factions.
Depending on what factions make it in, this could really be great. I’d love to see the Scarlet Rose show up here. Tossing in a Tian or Arcadian organization that hosts adventurers would do a lot of good work.
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I was not trying to talk down to you, so I apologize if it came off that way. Was just trying to articulate my thoughts on why I couldn't see it happening without a broader context or theme.
I could see a large villain book. Conflict is core to any TTRPG. So a book touch on some of the big malefactors and adversaries in Golarion could work; with stats for them or their minions.
The Palatine Eye seems like it is being set up as a major group, so I can see them getting their own book. Right now wpuld be the best time for it, with all the occult themes we've had lately.
The Palatine Eye got some teases in Knights of Lastwall and Book of the Dead, so I assume they’ll get some love when things finally turn towards tackling the Whispering Tyrant - probably in a few years. I have to assume Paizo is worried about thematic fatigue and wouldn’t do two straight years of spookiness and undead stuff, so 2023 likely isn’t an Eye of Dread year.
It would pair nicely with my hopes for an Inquisitor/Medium/Neutral Champions divine book, though.
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There's something going on with the Palatine Eye that we're going to find out about when they do another AP in that part of the world isn't there?
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Likely something to do with the Dominion of the Black, if I had to guess, given their recent relations.
So I'm just now reading Dark Archive; and I gotta say I find it really interesting that one of the first things mentioned in a book about the paranormal is acknowledging that other planets have life on them.
An oddly specific reference I feel. I mean I suppose I'm our world, alien life would fall into the paranormal. So not too weird. But, definitely a bit unexpected.
Likely something to do with the Dominion of the Black, if I had to guess, given their recent relations.
So I'm just now reading Dark Archive; and I gotta say I find it really interesting that one of the first things mentioned in a book about the paranormal is acknowledging that other planets have life on them.
An oddly specific reference I feel. I mean I suppose I'm our world, alien life would fall into the paranormal. So not too weird. But, definitely a bit unexpected.
I mean, one of the CRB Ancestries is from another planet, and maintains contact with that world via the elf gates. I imagine that removes a fair bit of the mystique.
I was definitely bummed to not see aliens or the Dominion of the Black in the book, though. Fingers crossed for both of those themes to get some more love elsewhere soon - Numeria, most likely.
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Another book fleshing out minor factions unlikely to get a full book, like the Order of the Palatine Eye, I could see as a LO book. An archetype and common items associated with these factions would draw in players, as well as lots of lore about being a member or enemy of these factions.Depending on what factions make it in, this could really be great. I’d love to see the Scarlet Rose show up here. Tossing in a Tian or Arcadian organization that hosts adventurers would do a lot of good work.
That’s the kind of thing I was thinking of. Like something that lands between the Adventurer Guide and Villain Codex in terms of lore to options ratio, using the opportunity to delve into all these cool groups they’ve introduced over the years.