Can you interrupt Dimensional Dervish?


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Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Can you interrupt Dimensional Dervish?

The monk is using Dimensional Dervish to teleport around knocking the brains out of his opponents. One of his opponents had laid out a pit trap on the floor around him, so the monks second attack was interrupted by falling into the pit trap when teleporting on it. Can the monk keep going with the dimensional dervish attacks or does his turn end? My take, is that he can keep going, but im not sure and would like to hear the opinions of the fine people on this forum.

Dimensional Dervish
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.


i am assuming the monk fell into the pit. if he made his save then pretty sure he can continue without a problem.

next is a question, did he take any damage from falling? (monks are notorious for having slow fall so maybe not). if he did he is now prone at the bottom of the pit.

anyway then the question is - can the monk use his teleportation from the bottom of the pit into a place he can continue attacking . im not fully versed with 'Dimension Door'- hence fort 'D.D.' for short, do you need line of sight?. i think the spell allow for calling out a place you can't see but know the direction and distance. (like '100 feet to the north' and the monk's ability is said to work like the spell).

EDIT : looked it up. he can D.D. by direction so if he knows how far he fell he can D.D. topside into an open space (better not the edge of the pit since anyone moving there i believe need to save or fall in again)

can he use it prone? (it shouldn't be a problem really beside the next note).

if he can use D.D. into a position he can attack from he can continue his attack (if he has more attacks to make), but depending on the answer to the previous question he might teleport prone, which mean the rest of his attacks (if he doesn't have a way to get up as swift\immediate\free action) are at -4 to hit and once he finish he end prone next to a probably pissed off enemy (if it's still alive) who then get to attack him with +4 to attack should he use melee attacks. (he might be able to teleport into the air and stand. but that might call for a special acrobatic roll or something, since there is no rule one can teleport fro ma prone position into a standing position that i am aware of that is up to GM. )

bright side - if the monk is prone he get +4 to his ac vs ranged attacks , yey!


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
zza ni wrote:

i am assuming the monk fell into the pit. if he made his save then pretty sure he can continue without a problem.

next is a question, did he take any damage from falling? (monks are notorious for having slow fall so maybe not). if he did he is now prone at the bottom of the pit.

anyway then the question is - can the monk use his teleportation from the bottom of the pit into a place he can continue attacking . im not fully versed with 'Dimension Door'- hence fort 'D.D.' for short, do you need line of sight?. i think the spell allow for calling out a place you can't see but know the direction and distance. (like '100 feet to the north' and the monk's ability is said to work like the spell).

EDIT : looked it up. he can D.D. by direction so if he knows how far he fell he can D.D. topside into an open space (better not the edge of the pit since anyone moving there i believe need to save or fall in again)

can he use it prone? (it shouldn't be a problem really beside the next note).

if he can use D.D. into a position he can attack from he can continue his attack (if he has more attacks to make), but depending on the answer to the previous question he might teleport prone, which mean the rest of his attacks (if he doesn't have a way to get up as swift\immediate\free action) are at -4 to hit and once he finish he end prone next to a probably pissed off enemy (if it's still alive) who then get to attack him with +4 to attack should he use melee attacks. (he might be able to teleport into the air and stand. but that might call for a special acrobatic roll or something, since there is no rule one can teleport fro ma prone position into a standing position that i am aware of that is up to GM. )

bright side - if the monk is prone he get +4 to his ac vs ranged attacks , yey!

This has kind of been my position too except you don’t get to teleport out of being prone, since you have spend an action to stand up.

He keeps on attacking, with a -4 for prone.
Teleporting into the air makes you immediately fall, interrupting that one attack. Gravity comes first.
I have thought that since you slow fall, that takes all your time/the rest of your turn, but then again I’m not sure.
Thank you for your extensive reply: )


Most characters should have purchased boots of the cat by that level. Really cheap and not much else you want for that slot.

As for the question, it depends on if the monk got an attack. DD requires requires teleports to between attacks. If you teleported and didn’t get an attack, I think you may be out of luck.


Technically, the slow fall doesn't really reduce the speed of your fall until the very end. Even if you fell 500ft, you'd still fall normally the majority of it, and then just barely stop yourself at the end enough to treat the fall as X feet shorter.

But as Melkiador said, it requires an attack, but nothing stops the monk from stomping the floor of the pit spell in anger, wasting an iterative, and then hopping back up, short of running out of ki.


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Melkiador, I don't think Dimensional Dervish requires teleports between attacks, it simply allows them.

The way I see it, the monk teleports onto a space that can't support him, he falls. Possibly lands prone if he takes damage. I would rule he would loose that one attack if he cannot reach the enemy from the bottom of the pit, but not all attacks. Remember, it's possible with magic and reach weapons to have 15ft or even 20ft reach even at medium size. He can teleport again (remaining prone if he took damage from the fall) to try to make another attack.

If this is a smart enemy who knows the monks tactics from a previous battle he may have dug pits on all the squares around him. Just to really stick it to the monk.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Claxon wrote:

Melkiador, I don't think Dimensional Dervish requires teleports between attacks, it simply allows them.

The way I see it, the monk teleports onto a space that can't support him, he falls. Possibly lands prone if he takes damage. I would rule he would loose that one attack if he cannot reach the enemy from the bottom of the pit, but not all attacks. Remember, it's possible with magic and reach weapons to have 15ft or even 20ft reach even at medium size. He can teleport again (remaining prone if he took damage from the fall) to try to make another attack.

If this is a smart enemy who knows the monks tactics from a previous battle he may have dug pits on all the squares around him. Just to really stick it to the monk.

The way we have been playing it, is that if an attack is interrupted, that particular iteration is considered used - taken from the highest bonus.

The player approached me with what other groups was doing was that if you could not attack someone, the whole full attack was interrupted. I decided to go with losing an iterative. The player spends an attack iteration between the teleportation. Trying to be true to the text of the feat in regards to flavor and intention.


Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

A strict RAW reading of whether he can teleport out of the pit or not is contingent on whether he was able to make an attack before he fell. Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

A strict RAW reading of whether he can teleport out of the pit or not is contingent on whether he was able to make an attack before he fell. Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.

Appreciate the input, this is what I am looking for. The part where you say: Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This is where I thought to myself, well, you can punch the wall or some other thing, so therefore expending the attack, and the you get to teleport again. How do you take that interpretation?


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Attacking the wall or floor in order to teleport again is a price paid in full... they essentially gave up an attack, and volunteered to have a lesser bonus on their next actual attack against a target that matters in order to teleport. And you still have to see where you are teleporting to... so the edge of pit? Maybe there are rafters above the pit within range? Still cuts down on the total distance you can teleport that round.

I would allow it... the price is paid in full.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

A strict RAW reading of whether he can teleport out of the pit or not is contingent on whether he was able to make an attack before he fell. Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.

Appreciate the input, this is what I am looking for. The part where you say: Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This is where I thought to myself, well, you can punch the wall or some other thing, so therefore expending the attack, and the you get to teleport again. How do you take that interpretation?

Sure you could punch the wall, but now we're going to be opening up the books for the next half hour looking for the hardness of the wall created by a Create Pit spell because the hardness not in the spell's description, and the pit that is created is actually an extradimensional space. You'll eventually arrive at the answer: no, you can't punch the wall of a create pit spell and have it count as an attack. Your PC is going to come up with the bright idea to enchant himself with permanent Fly so this never happens again, and it probably won't anyway, and now you're the DM of someone who can Fly everywhere :P Either that, or your PC will carry trinkets on an easily accessible bandolier that he can smash as unattended objects to count as an attack, and who wants those shenanigans either.

That's why I say just "Rule of Cool" it and allow him to teleport out of the pit and finish his attacks. He's going to teleport out next round anyway. I think there's a time and a place to strictly enforce the rules, and this isn't one of them :P


Starfinder Charter Superscriber
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

A strict RAW reading of whether he can teleport out of the pit or not is contingent on whether he was able to make an attack before he fell. Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.

Appreciate the input, this is what I am looking for. The part where you say: Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This is where I thought to myself, well, you can punch the wall or some other thing, so therefore expending the attack, and the you get to teleport again. How do you take that interpretation?
Sure you could punch the wall, but now we're going to be opening up the books for the next half hour looking for the hardness of the wall created by a Create Pit spell because the hardness not in the spell's description, and the pit that is created is...

Don’t need hardness info of the pit trap. I just go with an attack is expended.

You can attack random stuff to, flavor wise I would describe the monk throwing his punch and bashing the wall when he misses.


Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Nimor Starseeker wrote:
Ryze Kuja wrote:
Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

A strict RAW reading of whether he can teleport out of the pit or not is contingent on whether he was able to make an attack before he fell. Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.

Appreciate the input, this is what I am looking for. The part where you say: Making an attack is a requisite for being able to teleport.

This is where I thought to myself, well, you can punch the wall or some other thing, so therefore expending the attack, and the you get to teleport again. How do you take that interpretation?
Sure you could punch the wall, but now we're going to be opening up the books for the next half hour looking for the hardness of the wall created by a Create Pit spell because the hardness not in the spell's description, and
...

That's cool too :)


Starfinder Charter Superscriber

Oh, and thank you to all those whom took the time to help me out : )


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In a very uncharacteristic fit of childish anger, the Monk [of all people] gnashes his teeth and slams his fists into the extradimensional floor of the pit...

He quickly regains his focus and stoic composure, channeling his Ki energies to teleport out of the pit, immediately returning to attack his target, again.

Or something.


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VoodistMonk wrote:


He quickly regains his focus and stoic composure, channeling his Ki energies to teleport out of the pit, immediately returning to attack his target, again.

.... aaaaand you teleport up... and fall into ANOTHER pit!


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Well, it IS a well-laid trap. It deserves to work as intended...

Like when Slade Wilson sets off a bunch of bombs, and just stands there with his sword pointed backwards... waiting for the Flash to run up behind him. Gotcha!

Liberty's Edge

Ryze Kuja wrote:


This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.

In Pathfinder Fly doesn't stop you from falling (it was different in previous editions). You can use it to avoid the fall damage (with a successful check). Standing in mid-air requires the Hover maneuver, but there is no time to take it when you suddenly fall.

Air walk will work.
Levitate, apparently won't, too, as the current text speaks of going up or down 20' in a round, but nothing about standing at the same height. Weird.


Constantly hovering does let you ignore terrain things like the floor dropping out beneath you (keep in mind hover is flat DC 15, so most things can just nat 1 a hover by this level). Also, we have from the Reverse Gravity spell (where you're just falling but in reverse), that tells us that you can prevent yourself from falling with fly. It is implied you get a reflex save, and when taken to a pit spell, having flight (but for whatever reason not already hovering) and passing the reflex save could also let you begin hovering above the pit.

Liberty's Edge

Dimensional Dervish allows you to teleport once before attacking and once after each attack, so I would require the monk to expend an attack (no need to actually make it, simply expending it is enough) to be able to teleport out of the pit.

The problem is where he can teleport.
The pit is on another dimension:

Create Pit wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension,

Dimension Door and Abundant step don't allow you to cross planes, as the destination point needs to be within the spell range and "range" as no meaning between planes.

The only opening through which you can count range is the maw of the pit, so the monk can aim his next teleport in the cone traced from the floor of the pit to the air over it on the outside. With the right angle, he could teleport outside and then fall again outside the area of the pit, a far from optimal situation, as probably that wouldn't allow him to make an attack on the enemy.

Essentially (if the monk fails his Reflex save, an improbable event) the pit will seriously hamper the monk's attack routine.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Constantly hovering does let you ignore terrain things like the floor dropping out beneath you (keep in mind hover is flat DC 15, so most things can just nat 1 a hover by this level). Also, we have from the Reverse Gravity spell (where you're just falling but in reverse), that tells us that you can prevent yourself from falling with fly. It is implied you get a reflex save, and when taken to a pit spell, having flight (but for whatever reason not already hovering) and passing the reflex save could also let you begin hovering above the pit.

You have to hover before starting to Dim Door around, but after DD you aren't in the same place, are you still hoovering after doing that? By the definition of hovering, you don't, as you haven't stayed in the same place.

Reverse Gravity: You are taking the specific text of a spell and making it a rule. The text about falling (CRB, p. 443) doesn't say anything about avoiding a fall by using fly. The fly skill says: "Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision."
Flying allows you to negate the damage, not to stop the fall. with the specific exception of Reverse Gravity.


Either way, thank you for sharing this elaborate setup... not that I frequently have players using Dimensional Savant at my table, but...

I, as the GM, do enjoy using enemies [both NPC's and monsters] with Dimensional Savant against the party. I have yet to encounter anyone surrounding themself with pit spells, and now I know. They say knowing is half the battle... violence is the other half. Certain pit spells can really put a hurting on those that fall in, too. This is something I need to pay attention to.

I actually have considered being tripped by someone with Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Teleport Tactician midway through the routine... came to the conclusion they could continue the routine whilst prone, with the appropriate penalty. Obviously, this is assuming the person with Teleport Tactician does NOT have a weapon enchanted with Phase Locking. Lol.

If someone happens to have Disruptive/Spellbreaker/Teleport Tactician, as well as Stand Still [or any other ability to reduce a target's speed]... then we encounter a situation where Dimensional Savant can straight up be interrupted, even without a Phase Locking weapon.


Diego Rossi wrote:


In Pathfinder Fly doesn't stop you from falling

In Pathfinder, you don't have to make a fly check when you move more than half your speed in a round, unless you're actually doing something complex. Moving over half your Move Speed: no check required, Moving under half your Move Speed: 10 DC, Hovering in place the whole round: 15 DC.

In Pathfinder, the Fly spell says concentrating on flying is about as much concentration you'd need to walk, so you may attack and cast spells normally. (i.e. not very complex)

In Pathfinder, Abundant Step is a class ability of the Monk, and Dimensional Dervish is a feat. In this example, this Monk is using Abundant Step and Dimensional Dervish to teleport between several attacks, which uses the Monk's Movement Speed. There was no hovering, there was no mention that the Monk moves less than half his speed in the round, and he wasn't doing anything complex (just attacking), so no check would be necessary.

TLDR: If you teleport more than half your speed between all these attacks with a Fly spell active, you don't fall. Up to speed now?


And honestly, the flying rules seem to be among the more house ruled of Pathfinder rules. I rarely see anyone making checks unless they do something crazy.

Liberty's Edge

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


In Pathfinder Fly doesn't stop you from falling

In Pathfinder, you don't have to make a fly check when you move more than half your speed in a round, unless you're actually doing something complex. Moving over half your Move Speed: no check required, Moving under half your Move Speed: 10 DC, Hovering in place the whole round: 15 DC.

In Pathfinder, the Fly spell says concentrating on flying is about as much concentration you'd need to walk, so you may attack and cast spells normally. (i.e. not very complex)

In Pathfinder, Abundant Step is a class ability of the Monk, and Dimensional Dervish is a feat. In this example, this Monk is using Abundant Step and Dimensional Dervish to teleport between several attacks, which uses the Monk's Movement Speed. There was no hovering, there was no mention that the Monk moves less than half his speed in the round, and he wasn't doing anything complex (just attacking), so no check would be necessary.

TLDR: If you teleport more than half your speed between all these attacks with a Fly spell active, you don't fall. Up to speed now?

Where using Dimensional step count as moving part of your movement?

Or now every time it teleports from one position to another it is moving and provokes an AoO?
Does he need to pay 5' of movement for every 45° turn he makes?
Does he have to pay double the movement cost to increase his altitude?

A flying creature can spend a move action to fly and a standard action to attack or cast a spell, true, but we are speaking of a guy making a full attack.

If you want to disagree with me, no problem. But at least try to stay within what the rules say.

Liberty's Edge

Melkiador wrote:
And honestly, the flying rules seem to be among the more house ruled of Pathfinder rules. I rarely see anyone making checks unless they do something crazy.

Table variation, I have always seen them used.

The simple truth is that most people that routinely fly have high skill levels in the fly skills, and often good maneuverability.

The Fly spell gives a +8 for perfect maneuverability and, as a minimum, a +2 for the CL of the spell. With a few skills, passable dexterity, and no encumbrance you can do almost all maneuvers while rolling a 1.


Diego Rossi wrote:


If you want to disagree with me, no problem. But at least try to stay within what the rules say.

You should take your own advice. Because he's not Hovering in the same square all round.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Where using Dimensional step count as moving part of your movement?

Right here ---v

Dimensional Dervish wrote:
You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed(up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

It seems kinda weird that a 400ft+40ft/lvl spell (DDoor) is reduced to twice your move speed and then considers you as not moving at all during the round (Hovering in the same square all round), which is what sounds like you're suggesting is how it works.

If this is truly what you're suggesting, then I'm going to need you to produce a single rule that backs this up. Otherwise, we're going to use the actual rules for Fly Check w/ Movement Speed that is > or < half your Move Speed, not Diego's homebrewed Hovering Dimensional Dervish rules.

Tbh, I don't know why you'd even bring this up as an actual argument stance. 8th level+ characters can hit DC: 10's and 15's with nat 1's.


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Diego Rossi wrote:

Dimensional Dervish allows you to teleport once before attacking and once after each attack, so I would require the monk to expend an attack (no need to actually make it, simply expending it is enough) to be able to teleport out of the pit.

The problem is where he can teleport.
The pit is on another dimension:

Create Pit wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension,

Dimension Door and Abundant step don't allow you to cross planes, as the destination point needs to be within the spell range and "range" as no meaning between planes.

The only opening through which you can count range is the maw of the pit, so the monk can aim his next teleport in the cone traced from the floor of the pit to the air over it on the outside. With the right angle, he could teleport outside and then fall again outside the area of the pit, a far from optimal situation, as probably that wouldn't allow him to make an attack on the enemy.

Essentially (if the monk fails his Reflex save, an improbable event) the pit will seriously hamper the monk's attack routine.

Actually, its an extradimensional space still attacked to the existing plane, not another plane in itself. Obviously you can't D-Door to another plane, but when you are simply X feet down in a pit, you can still just teleport X feet back up (and maybe to the side a bit). The bigger question is or should be how accurately one can guestimate how high up the pit is, in case they can't see out the top to where they want to end up.


You don't have to see where you're going to use D.Door. You can just visualize a direction and an approximate distance and *poof*.


Ryze Kuja and AwesomenessDog beat me to the point since I'm a glacially slow typist, but here goes anyway...

Diego Rossi wrote:
Where using Dimensional step count as moving part of your movement?

It's not. It is however limited to double your movement speed, as the feat Dimensional Dervish is overwriting the normal limitations of the feature/spell as a swift action, or rather it is using your movement speed to determine the distance traveled, and you have to spend a swift action to do it. Then you take your full attack, blinking in and out like Davy in Jumper.

SRD wrote:

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

***

Diego Rossi wrote:
Or now every time it teleports from one position to another it is moving and provokes an AoO?

Swift action spells don't provoke, so he didn't provoke casting the spell/feature. It is movement in the sense that he's one place one moment and another the next, but it is part of the full round (attack) action, not a move action in the rules sense you're suggesting.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Does he need to pay 5' of movement for every 45° turn he makes?

No, because it's not flying, though you can draw some parallels or similarities, I suppose. And again, it is movement in the sense that he's one place one moment and another the next, but it is part of the full round action, and you don't spend movement attacking the next guy in a row that you can reach during a full attack. If you have three attacks and can reach three different guys around you, then you can hit each once, one twice, and another once, or one guy three times. It's up to you to decide how your character reacts. Dimensional Dervish, in a sense, is just extending where you can reach... but that doesn't mean reach, in the rules sense, just to be inordinately and exhaustingly clear.

As a side issue would be, since you're teleporting through intervening space, would you, Diego still charge his character for difficult terrain he's not moving through since he's limited to double his 'movement'? I feel it makes no sense to do so, and yet, I can see a 'logical' or syllogistic way to argue the point.

Diego Rossi wrote:
Does he have to pay double the movement cost to increase his altitude?

No. Because again, it's not flying. Flying uses flying rules. Different forms of movement often have slightly different rules, or quirks, to them though they may be related in that they are all forms of movement. Climbing is not swimming is not walking.

Diego Rossi wrote:
A flying creature can spend a move action to fly and a standard action to attack or cast a spell, true, but we are speaking of a guy making a full attack.

Indeed.

Diego Rossi wrote:
If you want to disagree with me, no problem. But at least try to stay within what the rules say.

And this is where I make my often thought point, that rules are, hopefully, intended as a standard but not absolute point, the same why law is not intended a one size fits all solution to different permutations of similar problems. Otherwise, we wouldn't need judges or juries to determine on a case by case basis if something fits.

I think I understand how this is 'supposed' to work. The monk teleports, effectively as a free action, between each of his attacks. He doesn't provoke any more than anybody else would taking a full attack action at multiple opponents he can reach. If anything interrupts the 'movement' if/then until it makes sense.

Monk lands in area that requires a save. Does he pass save? Yes. Continue with movement./No. Monk takes effect. Does the effect interfere with action? Yes. Action ended./No. Continue with action under the effects of the failure (HP damage/prone/etc.).

...then again, I'd rule of cool someone with dimensional dervish all the way. He's teleporting short distances as a free action. I'd let him use that teleport to avoid a save condition, myself. It's not as if that makes any less sense than a rogue passing his reflex save and taking no damage inside a fireball from 'evading'. O_o


Nimor Starseeker wrote:

Can you interrupt Dimensional Dervish?

...

Yes. You need an Interrupt or Immediate action. A Readying/readied action triggered by the dervish starts before the dervish...

Then you give your setup and there are several things in there.
Falling is a result of a creature triggering a physical pit trap in a square, so there's the DC of the trap etc, then a Reflex save, then falling which is Immediate (so before that iterative attack). Create Pit:C2 & Minor Image:I2 do the same thing with the DC set by your casting DC. No casting unless the pit is deeper than 500ft. Falling damage may break concentration. While not specifically called out it is implied. If a spell was cast to enable the ability thus that spell is ongoing and disrupting it can end the effect. You've wandered into another corner case where a GM has to make a decision. The trick is would the ability work within an antimagic field? Can you Dim Door into the AoE of an antimagic field? Then does the feat allow the user to attack in an area they cannot Dim Door into? Thus ending/stopping the spell ends/stops the function of the feat. The requirements have to be met for the Full round.

Then there's the interaction of the pit with Dim Dervish. It does affect Line of Sight(LoS). The depth of the pit will count against distance traveled in the move action. At best the square adjacent to the top of the lip of the pit would be the next square traveled to.

Advice: a simple Obscuring Mist, Darkness, Blur, Displacement, Blink, etc would have been a better defense.

Liberty's Edge

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:


If you want to disagree with me, no problem. But at least try to stay within what the rules say.

You should take your own advice. Because he's not Hovering in the same square all round.

Diego Rossi wrote:


Where using Dimensional step count as moving part of your movement?

Right here ---v

Dimensional Dervish wrote:
You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed(up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

It seems kinda weird that a 400ft+40ft/lvl spell (DDoor) is reduced to twice your move speed and then considers you as not moving at all during the round (Hovering in the same square all round), which is what sounds like you're suggesting is how it works.

If this is truly what you're suggesting, then I'm going to need you to produce a single rule that backs this up. Otherwise, we're going to use the actual rules for Fly Check w/ Movement Speed that is > or < half your Move Speed, not Diego's homebrewed Hovering Dimensional Dervish rules.

Tbh, I don't know why you'd even bring this up as an actual argument stance. 8th level+ characters can hit DC: 10's and 15's with nat 1's.

LOL, no Ryze, the part you have bolded simply gives a range, doesn't make it movement, unless you call teleport movement.

Like, for other spells, teleporting to a point you can see don't make it using Perception.
True, you aren't hovering in the same place, but you aren't moving too. The best approximation in the rules is the hovering check.

@Te'Shen
It seems that you haven't got what I was saying. Teleportation isn't moving, as far as the rules go. It has none of the positive or negative effects of moving. Ryze wants to apply one of the positive effects (moving more than half your speed while flying) while avoiding the negative, I was pointing out how that doesn't work.

Liberty's Edge

AwesomenessDog wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Dimensional Dervish allows you to teleport once before attacking and once after each attack, so I would require the monk to expend an attack (no need to actually make it, simply expending it is enough) to be able to teleport out of the pit.

The problem is where he can teleport.
The pit is on another dimension:

Create Pit wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension,

Dimension Door and Abundant step don't allow you to cross planes, as the destination point needs to be within the spell range and "range" as no meaning between planes.

The only opening through which you can count range is the maw of the pit, so the monk can aim his next teleport in the cone traced from the floor of the pit to the air over it on the outside. With the right angle, he could teleport outside and then fall again outside the area of the pit, a far from optimal situation, as probably that wouldn't allow him to make an attack on the enemy.

Essentially (if the monk fails his Reflex save, an improbable event) the pit will seriously hamper the monk's attack routine.

Actually, its an extradimensional space still attacked to the existing plane, not another plane in itself. Obviously you can't D-Door to another plane, but when you are simply X feet down in a pit, you can still just teleport X feet back up (and maybe to the side a bit). The bigger question is or should be how accurately one can guestimate how high up the pit is, in case they can't see out the top to where they want to end up.

Actually, it is another dimension, I cited the text of the spell. It isn't an extra-dimensional space, that is another thing.

But what you say after that is exactly what I said: you can teleport to a cone defined by the borders of the pit and your position in it. Teleporting to all other locations would require you to pass through a dimensional boundary.


Diego Rossi wrote:


LOL, no Ryze, the part you have bolded simply gives a range, doesn't make it movement, unless you call teleport movement.
Like, for other spells, teleporting to a point you can see don't make it using Perception.
True, you aren't hovering in the same place, but you aren't moving too. The best approximation in the rules is the hovering check.

LOL, no Diego. Your Hovering-In-Four-To-Eight-Different-Squares rule is Diego's homebrew.

Dimensional Assault wrote:

Dimensional Assault

You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

Teleport Charging a single foe becomes Teleport Charging Multiple Foes ------v

Dimensional Dervish wrote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.

Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.

Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

When you're performing Dimensional Assault, You're performing a special Teleport Charge with a single attack that you'd normally get on a charge. With Dimensional Dervish, it becomes Cloud's Omnislash, but instead of moving insanely fast between multiple foes, you're actually Teleport Charging between multiple foes. Charging is movement.

TLDR: It's a Flying Teleport Charge ---> Fly Check with Movement Speed > or < half movement speed rules are most applicable. Not Hovering-In-Four-To-Eight-Different-Squares.

Hovering is spending 6 seconds in the same square.


Why do people keep bringing up line of sight? Dimension Door DOES NOT REQUIRE LINE OF SIGHT. You need only visualize a location or define a distance and direction. You do not need to physically see a location. Mental visualization is enough if you have previously seen the location (and it is within range) as is simply defining “20ft left and 15 ft up”. The only issue the pit posses to the teleportation is the added distance to get out.

As to if it interrupts when they fail and fall in… absolutely. Not only would the act of falling prone normally interrupt their action but additionally the fall damage would cause them to have to make a concentration check to even continue their dimension door if their action somehow wasn’t interrupted. Both outcomes of which are ultimately them ending their turn at the bottom of the pit and most likely still prone.


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Diego Rossi wrote:
Dimension Door and Abundant step don't allow you to cross planes

Note that Dim Door has the Teleportation Sub-School, which says:

Teleportation is instantaneous travel through the Astral Plane.

So yes, Dimension Door does cross planes. Now, it doesn't let you teleport to other planes, so you still have to end up in the same plane, but an extradimensional space is not the same as a demi-plane or plane.


@ Diego - Let's drop the attitudes for a minute, and delve into this, k?

Level 11 is about the fastest you can possibly have Dimensional Dervish for a standard U-Monk, barring any crazy builds or multi-classing.

Hypothetical Scenario:
You're a level 11 UMonk with Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, and Dimensional Dervish, and let's say for this example that you only have a +13 Fly check, and you and your party are traveling through an expansive cavern in the Underdark. Your party Wizard casts Haste and Fly on you, because he suspects something nearby. You fly to 100ft above the ground, and then you hear the unmistakable cackling of a Witch echoing throughout the cavern walls. The Witch dismisses her Invisibility effect and you see that she is also 100ft above the ground, and only 70ft away from you, and is most likely using her Flight Hex; she beseeches and entreats you and your party, "Join me, and together we'll destroy everyone and everything on the surface world, and I will have my vengeance!" You and your party attack, Initiative is rolled, and you won the highest Initiative.

DM: "DiegoMonk, you won Initiative and it's your turn first."

You: "I'd like to use Dimensional Dervish to teleport to and attack this witch with all of my 6 attacks."

DM: "Roll that beautiful bean footage."

You: "First attack, 28 to hit."

DM: "Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is 24."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check passes, and you Teleport to the Witch and successfully hit, roll damage."

You: "21 damage"

DM: "Okay, next attack?

You: "I'm going to teleport to the direct other side of the witch, and strike again, 31 to hit."

DM: ""Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is 27."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check passes, and you Teleport to the other side of the Witch and successfully hit, roll damage."

You: "18 damage"

DM: "Okay, next attack?

You: "I'm going to teleport to the direct other side of the witch, and strike again, 30 to hit."

DM: ""Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is 29."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check passes, and you Teleport to the other side of the Witch and successfully hit, roll damage."

You: "19 damage"

DM: "Okay, next attack?

You: "I'm going to teleport to the direct other side of the witch, and strike again, 29 to hit."

DM: ""Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is 26."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check passes, and you Teleport to the other side of the Witch and successfully hit, roll damage."

You: "24 damage"

DM: "Okay, next attack?

You: "I'm going to teleport to the direct other side of the witch, and strike again, 21 to hit."

DM: ""Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is 30."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check passes, and you Teleport to the other side of the Witch and successfully hit, roll damage."

You: "30 damage"

DM: "Okay, last attack?

You: "I'm going to teleport to the direct other side of the witch, and strike again, 29 to hit."

DM: ""Wait, but first, you have to perform a Hover check, DC: 15"

You: "Okay, my Hover roll is a natural 1, so Hover check 14."

DM: "Okay, your Hover check fails, and you Teleport to the other side of the Witch but you begin to fall before you can make your attack. You are now falling, and normally you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage, but you cannot make this check because you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision. Since you were 100ft off the ground and not near a wall, you take 10d6 points of falling damage. *rolls* You take 35 points of falling damage."

You: "6 Hover checks!? Where is THAT in the rules?!"

DM: "Actually, there would be 7 Hover checks, because you're allowed to teleport after the last attack."

=========================================================================== =================================

Does this sound right to you Diego? Or are there 6 Hover checks? Or is there 1 Hover check that is made, and then this 1 Hover check applies to all the different places you teleport to?

Because the way I see this, there no check made at all, and it is because this Monk is essentially performing a Flying Teleport Charge and travels over half his total move speed.

If the Monk moves Less than Half of his total Move Speed while performing all of these teleports, then a Fly check DC: 10 is performed.

Fly Skill wrote:
You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees1, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check


Ryze Kuja wrote:
You don't have to see where you're going to use D.Door. You can just visualize a direction and an approximate distance and *poof*.

And if you approximate wrong, you find yourself in a wall and could wind up taking massive damage. But there is no rules for said approximation, nor is it explicitly legal for the most common table variation where you to just look at the edge of the pit and decide "just 5ft up and to the left from that" even though you can't see it, so you should be specifying the distance.


Diego Rossi wrote:
AwesomenessDog wrote:
Diego Rossi wrote:

Dimensional Dervish allows you to teleport once before attacking and once after each attack, so I would require the monk to expend an attack (no need to actually make it, simply expending it is enough) to be able to teleport out of the pit.

The problem is where he can teleport.
The pit is on another dimension:

Create Pit wrote:
Since it extends into another dimension,

Dimension Door and Abundant step don't allow you to cross planes, as the destination point needs to be within the spell range and "range" as no meaning between planes.

The only opening through which you can count range is the maw of the pit, so the monk can aim his next teleport in the cone traced from the floor of the pit to the air over it on the outside. With the right angle, he could teleport outside and then fall again outside the area of the pit, a far from optimal situation, as probably that wouldn't allow him to make an attack on the enemy.

Essentially (if the monk fails his Reflex save, an improbable event) the pit will seriously hamper the monk's attack routine.

Actually, its an extradimensional space still attacked to the existing plane, not another plane in itself. Obviously you can't D-Door to another plane, but when you are simply X feet down in a pit, you can still just teleport X feet back up (and maybe to the side a bit). The bigger question is or should be how accurately one can guestimate how high up the pit is, in case they can't see out the top to where they want to end up.

Actually, it is another dimension, I cited the text of the spell. It isn't an extra-dimensional space, that is another thing.

But what you say after that is exactly what I said: you can teleport to a cone defined by the borders of the pit and your position in it. Teleporting to all other locations would require you to pass through a dimensional boundary.

Dimension=/=plane. There are (normally) 3 dimensions in all of the planes of existence (except maybe time?), but the pit pushes into another "extra-dimension" so that it doesnt need a floor that actually goes X feet deep, but its not a different plane of existence within the pit.


Diego, still waiting on an answer from you about these 7+ hover checks per round.


It's so easy a big dumb Fighter can do it. Lol.

16th level Strix Airborne Ambusher-Dervish of Dawn Fighter with Hover, Flickering Step, and Dimensional Savant... five teleport attacks without touching the ground, and no Fly checks required...

Liberty's Edge

Ryze Kuja wrote:
Does this sound right to you Diego? Or are there 6 Hover checks? Or is there 1 Hover check that is made, and then this 1 Hover check applies to all the different places you teleport to?
Fly wrote:

Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its

speed.

1) I interpret that as "moving by flying". Regardless, moving by dimension door allow you to take a 5' step so it is not "movement" for the rules.

2) It requires a single check. Actually, it is made to continue flying at the end of the turn, so it will not interrupt the attacks.

3) Not related to your post, but you can attack in melee even when prone. At this time I don't recall a rule saying that falling prone stops a full attack (I don't think that it exists). Nor any rule that says that you can't use Dimension Door when prone.
So, as long as you rule that the pit doesn't block DD, the guy using Dimensional Dervish can still DD around and attack from the floor.

I think that the walls of the Pit will limit any form of teleportation, but it seems I am a minority.


Dimensional Assault wrote:

Dimensional Assault

You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.

Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.

Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.

It specifically says you use ddoor or AbStep as a special charge. So, no 5ft step. No fly check is required if you move greater than half your move speed in the round. Hover checks are for staying stationary in your square and not moving at all.

I wonder if you'd allow me access to your pathfinder characters you've retired. I'm only curious because I doubt any of them are over level 10.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber

Slightly random but topical question.

Since the Conjuration school requires "It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." can you even teleport onto a pit trap? Does it rely on the caster's knowledge or does the spell just know because its a Conjuration spell?


Kasoh wrote:

Slightly random but topical question.

Since the Conjuration school requires "It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." can you even teleport onto a pit trap? Does it rely on the caster's knowledge or does the spell just know because its a Conjuration spell?

Interesting question...

How would the spell "know" about the pit trap if the person casting the spell is unaware? Would the spell fail and be wasted, or fail to cast and not be used up? Would the GM tell you to choose a different target location? That kind of ruins the entire purpose of traps, though.

Liberty's Edge

VoodistMonk wrote:
Kasoh wrote:

Slightly random but topical question.

Since the Conjuration school requires "It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." can you even teleport onto a pit trap? Does it rely on the caster's knowledge or does the spell just know because its a Conjuration spell?

Interesting question...

How would the spell "know" about the pit trap if the person casting the spell is unaware? Would the spell fail and be wasted, or fail to cast and not be used up? Would the GM tell you to choose a different target location? That kind of ruins the entire purpose of traps, though.

It matters only when transporting an object or creature to you, not when you are teleporting.

CRB wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

So, you can teleport over an open pit or in mid-air.

You can't summon an Acme anvil and let it drop on someone's head and you can't summon someone so that it falls into an abyss.

In some situations, it requires adjudication from the GM.
The sea is "a surface capable of supporting"a fish?
If I conjure a naturally floating creature or a balloon filled with helium, it can appear in mid-air?
My reply is Yes, but your GM can have a different opinion.

Liberty's Edge

Ryze Kuja wrote:


It specifically says you use ddoor or AbStep as a special charge. So, no 5ft step. No fly check is required if you move greater than half your move speed in the round. Hover checks are for staying stationary in your square and not moving at all.

The character made a special charge and moved with Dimension Door. He didn't move at all by flying.

So, your opinion is that any kind of movement fulfills the requirement of the fly skill?
Walking, swimming, climbing, teleportation, anything goes?

Edit: I hadn't even noticed that you have changed the argument of the discussion:
You cited Dimensional Assault, but the question is about Dimensional Dervish.

With Dimensional Assault you don't move to several different points in space. You move to only one, the final point of your charge.

Quote:

Dimensional Dervish

You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If you do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.

"you can teleport up to twice your speed". Teleport, not move.

So, teleporting prohibits you from taking a 5' step?
And, even more important, if you take a 5' step you cant use Teleport or Dimension Door?


Because Dimensional Assault is the prerequisite of Dimensional Dervish..... and it's described RAW as a special charge that is limited to twice your move speed. You don't perform 7 hover checks. And you don't perform 1 hover check for the 7 different locations that you teleport to. Hovering is for when you stay in that same location all round.

Your "1 Hover check for 7 different locations in a round" rule is nothing more than Diego's Homebrewed nonsense.

Liberty's Edge

The prerequisite affect how the next feat in a chain works?
Only if the feat says so.


Pathfinder Adventure Path Subscriber
Diego Rossi wrote:
VoodistMonk wrote:
Kasoh wrote:

Slightly random but topical question.

Since the Conjuration school requires "It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it." can you even teleport onto a pit trap? Does it rely on the caster's knowledge or does the spell just know because its a Conjuration spell?

Interesting question...

How would the spell "know" about the pit trap if the person casting the spell is unaware? Would the spell fail and be wasted, or fail to cast and not be used up? Would the GM tell you to choose a different target location? That kind of ruins the entire purpose of traps, though.

It matters only when transporting an object or creature to you, not when you are teleporting.

CRB wrote:
A creature or object brought into being or transported to your location by a conjuration spell cannot appear inside another creature or object, nor can it appear floating in an empty space. It must arrive in an open location on a surface capable of supporting it.

So, you can teleport over an open pit or in mid-air.

You can't summon an Acme anvil and let it drop on someone's head and you can't summon someone so that it falls into an abyss.

In some situations, it requires adjudication from the GM.
The sea is "a surface capable of supporting"a fish?
If I conjure a naturally floating creature or a balloon filled with helium, it can appear in mid-air?
My reply is Yes, but your GM can have a different opinion.

That's what I get for not reading the whole sentence. Darn.

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