The prerequisite affect how the next feat in a chain works?
Only if the feat says so.
Oh does it say somewhere in the feat that you make 1 Hover check for all the different places you teleport to?
I have to agree with Diego on this one... if you do not actually FLY more than half your total speed, then you are required to make a Fly check to hover at the end of your turn in order to remain airborne... However, the source of your flight may factor in here as well, since the rules are unclear as to what happens if your fail a fly check with magical or wingless flight...
I have to agree with Diego on this one... if you do not actually FLY more than half your total speed, then you are required to make a Fly check to hover at the end of your turn in order to remain airborne... However, the source of your flight may factor in here as well, since the rules are unclear as to what happens if your fail a fly check with magical or wingless flight...
If you have Dimensional Agility and a Quicken Metamagic Rod (lvl4-6), and you begin the round with Quickened Dimension Door to teleport 400ft +40ft/lvl, and then perform a Full Attack, I would agree that you do not actually move, you're performing a Teleport and then staying stationary for the remaining ~5.9-6.0 seconds of the round. Even this would be debatable as to whether it requires a Hover check, because a Hover Check is performed when you occupy the same square from the beginning to the end of your turn, and this would also hinge on how strict you are with the 5-foot step rule and whether Teleporation violates the "as long as you perform no other forms of movement" clause in the 5-foot step rules. Personally, I'm in the "Teleporation is not movement, therefore you can perform a 5-foot step and cast DDoor in the same round" camp, and therefore this scenario would warrant a Hover check.
But Dimensional Agility is specifically called out as a special charge limited to twice your movement speed that that allows an attack at the end (exactly like a normal charge). Dimensional Dervish is merely an extension of this special charge that allows your full attack albeit against multiple opponents if desired, and is also limited to twice your movement speed. The fact that this is treated as a special charge and limited to x2 your movement speed (like any normal charge) suggests that this is indeed a charge, and is therefore considered movement. This would indeed require a Fly check if you didn't move more than half your movement speed in the round, and if you did move more than half your movement speed in the round, then no Fly check is required.
As soon as Dimensional Agility says the words "special charge", we use the charge rules. The 'how' of this special charge, i.e. teleporting via AbStep/Ddoor, becomes fluff text. Mechanically speaking, you're performing a charge.
Martial Charge (Combat)
You have learned how to initiate a martial strike on the move, delivering them at the end of a charge attack.
Prerequisite(s): Base attack bonus +3, ability to initiate a martial strike.
Benefit(s): As a full-round action, you can make a special charge attack. First, move up to twice your speed in a straight line towards a creature, obeying the normal restrictions on movement during a charge, as well as applying any effects or benefits you might have to such movement. Then, at the end of your movement, you can initiate a strike on the creature you moved towards with an initiation action of 1 standard action. You gain a +2 bonus on attack rolls during the strike, and take a –2 penalty to your AC until the start of your next turn. During the strike, you do not gain any other benefits you would have gained for charging, such as pounce.
If you are using Dimensional Agility, then yes you are actually moving. Dimensional Agility makes no use of dimension door or abundant step. The questions and debate were over Dimensional Dervish, which functions differently. With dimensional dervish you do not perform the same special charge as dimensional agility, instead you full attack and can move during your full attack via dimension door or abundant step instead of actually move.
Dimensional Dervish requires Dimensional Agility to take it but it is NOT an extension of dimensional agility.
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
But Dimensional
Agilityis specifically called out as a special charge limited to twice your movement speed that that allows an attack at the end (exactly like a normal charge)....
I meant Assault, not Agility.
You also seem to have mixed up Dimensional Agility with a completely different feat… I don’t know where you found that Martial Charge feat you have claimed to be Dimensional Agility but here is the dimensional agility feat
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 95
Teleportation does not faze you.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.
You also seem to have mixed up Dimensional Agility with a completely different feat… I don’t know where you found that Martial Charge feat you have claimed to be Dimensional Agility but here is the dimensional agility feat
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 95
Teleportation does not faze you.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door.
Benefit: After using abundant step or casting dimension door, you can take any actions you still have remaining on your turn. You also gain a +4 bonus on Concentration checks when casting teleportation spells.
I meant Agility in the first paragraph, and I messed up in the second paragraph. I meant Assault in the second paragraph.
I was trying to provide a contrast between Dimensional Agility with Quickened DDoor + Full attack vs. Dimensional Assault having vastly shorter range and much less attacks per round (until Dimensional Dervish comes online). And it’s because both Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish, and Dimensional Savant for that matter, are all treated as special charges.
Martial Charge is also a special charge from Path of War.
Special charges still follow all the rules of a normal charge, except as noted in the special charge ability.
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[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.
It doesn’t matter which feat you use in the dimensional dervish feat chain, you teleport with all of them, therefore you do not “move up to half your speed” dimensional agility even lets you still move your full speed after you have teleported. If you elect NOT to use your movement or to not move half your speed you have to make a fly check to hover if you end your turn while still flying. With dimensional assault, you elected not to move half your speed the moment you chose to perform the full round action to use the feat. With dimensional dervish you made the decision when you chose to use a full attack action + swift action to activate the feat.
If you used that Martial Charge feat you posted or anything else that let you move normally with a full attack then you wouldn’t need to make the check.
It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
He’s hung up on Dimensional Assault…
You have been trained to use magical movement as part of your combat tactics.
Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility.
Benefit: As a full-round action, you use abundant step or cast dimension door as a special charge. Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability) and to make the attack normally allowed on a charge.
It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
It does in Dimensional Assault. Why do you think Dimensional Assault is a prerequisite for Dimensional Dervish, and why Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish both are restricted to x2 movement speed? Just flatter me with your best guess.
It doesn't mention a special charge anywhere.[PFS Legal] Dimensional Dervish
Source Ultimate Combat pg. 96
You teleport with a mere thought, savaging your opponents as you flash in and out of reality.Prerequisites: Ability to use the abundant step class feature or cast dimension door, Dimensional Agility, Dimensional Assault, base attack bonus +6.
Benefit: You can take a full-attack action, activating abundant step or casting dimension door as a swift action. If your do, you can teleport up to twice your speed (up to the maximum distance allowed by the spell or ability), dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack. You must teleport at least 5 feet each time you teleport.
Special: A monk can use additional points from his ki pool to increase his speed before determining the total speed for this teleportation.
It does in Dimensional Assault. Why do you think Dimensional Assault and Dimensional Dervish both are restricted to x2 movement speed? Just flatter me with your best guess.
With assault you get the benefits and penalties of a charge, meaning +2 Attack and Damage, -2AC. However it is still a teleport, not a move. But with dervish it is NOT a charge. Dervish is a full attack with a swift action teleport and
Free teleports between attacks. The distance is restricted to put it in line with other similar abilities.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Why is it being a charge, or not, relevant? What is the importance of moving vs teleporting in this debate? Are we still arguing about freaking Fly checks?
The original question is talking about (and quotes) Dervish... the title to this thread mentions Dervish, specifically. We can probably assume the topic is Dervish.
Does a flying Monk have to make Fly checks to avoid falling in the pit trap when they use Dervish? Probably not... honestly, they were most likely already flying before they used Dervish, so screw it. A Monk that is not currently flying would obviously fall in the pit trap. Can a pit trap interrupt Dervish? Yes.
So can any number of feats/abilities/enchantments... especially anything that reduces one's speed or available actions, denies visibility, or inhibits teleportation/dimensional travel. Can you interrupt Dervish? Absolutely, yes. Is it relatively difficult/expensive to do? Also, yes. For example, Teleport Tactician is a feat for 11th-level Fighters, and Phase Locking is a +2 enchantment.
Why is it being a charge, or not, relevant? What is the importance of moving vs teleporting in this debate? Are we still arguing about freaking Fly checks?
Diego thinks that you can teleport 7 times in a round and 1 Hover check is required to prevent yourself from descending for each of the times you teleport+attack during the Dimensional Dervish.
I say no fly check is required, because you're performing a teleporting charge.
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Why is it being a charge, or not, relevant? What is the importance of moving vs teleporting in this debate? Are we still arguing about freaking Fly checks?
Diego thinks that you can teleport 7 times in a round and 1 Hover check is required to prevent yourself from descending for each of the times you teleport+attack during the Dimensional Dervish.
I say no fly check is required, because you're performing a teleporting charge.
Maybe you haven't noticed it, but I corrected that when I posted how the fly check works. You make 1 check (something that was implicit in my original post, only you interpret it as up to 7 checks) but at the end of the turn. I thought it was at the start.
Making the check at the end as it allows a flying creature to make a full attack before falling even if they fail the check and resolves some issue with what happens if you fail a Fly check.
Hover checks are required when you spend the 6 seconds of your round flying in the same square (using your Standard/Move Action for something other than moving). And I don't care if you say 1 hover check or 7 hover checks. There is no Fly check required during a Dimensional Dervish. You are not hanging out Hovering in the same square for 6 seconds. Period. End of Story.
Hover checks are required when you spend the 6 seconds of your round flying in the same square (using your Standard/Move Action for something other than moving). And I don't care if you say 1 hover check or 7 hover checks. There is no Fly check required during a Dimensional Dervish. You are not hanging out Hovering in the same square for 6 seconds. Period. End of Story.
That is flat out wrong. Hover is any time you do not actually move more than half your movement speed while flying. Teleportation is not actual movement, even though you cannot 5ft step and teleport in the same round. The reason for this is that a teleport is effectively like a 5ft step but with any amount of space between, you may be 120ft away from your starting position but you moved 0ft. How many spaces did you move through in your movement? None. How many squares did you leave in your movement, oddly enough the answer is still none. You might enter multiple squares during a teleport, it technically you never exited any of them you vanished from them. This is why you don't provoke when teleporting, you might provoke from casting a spell to teleport, but the act of teleporting itself does not provoke because you do not exit any squares.
Hover checks are required when you spend the 6 seconds of your round flying in the same square (using your Standard/Move Action for something other than moving). And I don't care if you say 1 hover check or 7 hover checks. There is no Fly check required during a Dimensional Dervish. You are not hanging out Hovering in the same square for 6 seconds. Period. End of Story.That is flat out wrong. Hover is any time you do not actually move more than half your movement speed while flying. Teleportation is not actual movement, even though you cannot 5ft step and teleport in the same round. The reason for this is that a teleport is effectively like a 5ft step but with any amount of space between, you may be 120ft away from your starting position but you moved 0ft. How many spaces did you move through in your movement? None. How many squares did you leave in your movement, oddly enough the answer is still none. You might enter multiple squares during a teleport, it technically you never exited any of them you vanished from them. This is why you don't provoke when teleporting, you might provoke from casting a spell to teleport, but the act of teleporting itself does not provoke because you do not exit any squares.
No, you’re flat out wrong. If you spend 6 seconds flying in the same space, it’s a DC15 Hover check. If you move less than half your move speed in a round, it’s a DC10 Fly check, not a Hover check.
Fly checks do not occur unless you’re doing something that is obviously hard or complex to do. In the Fly spell, it says attacking doesn’t warrant a Fly check.
Fly
School transmutation; Level alchemist 3, bloodrager 3, magus 3, medium 3, occultist 3, psychic 3, shaman 3, sorcerer/wizard 3, spiritualist 3, summoner/unchained summoner 3, witch 3; Domain travel 3, void 3; Subdomain azata (chaos, good) 3, feather 3; Bloodline djinni 3, draconic 3; Elemental School air 3; Mystery dragon 3
CASTING
Casting Time 1 standard action
Components V, S, F (a wing feather)EFFECT
Range touch
Target creature touched
Duration 1 min./level
Saving Throw Will negates (harmless); Spell Resistance yes (harmless)DESCRIPTION
The subject can fly at a speed of 60 feet (or 40 feet if it wears medium or heavy armor, or if it carries a medium or heavy load). It can ascend at half speed and descend at double speed, and its maneuverability is good.
Using a fly spell requires only as much concentration as walking, so the subject can attack or cast spells normally. The subject of a fly spell can charge but not run, and it cannot carry aloft more weight than its maximum load, plus any armor it wears. The subject gains a bonus on Fly skill checks equal to 1/2 your caster level.
Should the spell duration expire while the subject is still aloft, the magic fails slowly. The subject floats downward 60 feet per round for 1d6 rounds. If it reaches the ground in that amount of time, it lands safely. If not, it falls the rest of the distance, taking 1d6 points of damage per 10 feet of fall. Since dispelling a spell effectively ends it, the subject also descends safely in this way if the fly spell is dispelled, but not if it is negated by an antimagic field.
You generally need only make a Fly check when you are attempting a complex maneuver. Without making a check, a flying creature can remain flying at the end of its turn so long as it moves a distance greater than half its speed. It can also turn up to 45 degrees by sacrificing 5 feet of movement, can rise at half speed at an angle of 45 degrees1, and can descend at any angle at normal speed. Note that these restrictions only apply to movement taken during your current turn. At the beginning of the next turn, you can move in a different direction than you did the previous turn without making a check. Taking any action that violates these rules requires a Fly check. The difficulty of these maneuvers varies depending upon the maneuver you are attempting, as noted on the following chart.
Table: Flying Maneuver DCs Flying Maneuver Fly DC
Move less than half speed and remain flying 10
Hover 15
Turn greater than 45° by spending 5 feet of movement 15
Turn 180° by spending 10 feet of movement 20
Fly up at a greater than 45° angle1 20
The Fly spell says attacking isn't complex. Hover is hanging out in the same exact square for 6 seconds. If you move even 5ft-25ft, it becomes a DC10 check. Moving 30ft+ means no Fly check at all.
Learn it. Love it. Live it.
Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.
It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
You thought a Hover check was when you move less than half your move speed and then said you cannot take a 5ft step in the same round you teleport, and then said the reason why is because teleport is like a 5ft step with any amount of space in between, so please don’t fault me when I don’t take your opinion on how a flying Dimensional Dervish is supposed to work.
You thought a Hover check was when you move less than half your move speed and then said you cannot take a 5ft step in the same round you teleport, and then said the reason why is because teleport is like a 5ft step with any amount of space in between, so please don’t fault me when I don’t take your opinion on how a flying Dimensional Dervish is supposed to work.It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
Not “is like” it is effectively like. There is a difference, learn to recognize it.
You're still weirdly wrong about this. You are out of character atm, frankly. The concept of taking a 5ft step as a Miscellaneous Action is nothing like Teleporting as a Standard or a Move Action.
And I don't want to get into a weird derailment of this thread either. If you want to talk this out, start a new post plz.
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You thought a Hover check was when you move less than half your move speed and then said you cannot take a 5ft step in the same round you teleport, and then said the reason why is because teleport is like a 5ft step with any amount of space in between, so please don’t fault me when I don’t take your opinion on how a flying Dimensional Dervish is supposed to work.It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
False.
1) I said that you must make a hoover check because teleport and dimension door isn't moving.
Where using Dimensional step count as moving part of your movement?
True, you aren't hovering in the same place, but you aren't moving too. The best approximation in the rules is the hovering check.
2) I said that you can move 5' when using DD, you are the one that said you can't because it is a special charge.
It specifically says you use ddoor or AbStep as a special charge. So, no 5ft step. No fly check is required if you move greater than half your move speed in the round. Hover checks are for staying stationary in your square and not moving at all.
"you can teleport up to twice your speed". Teleport, not move.
So, teleporting prohibits you from taking a 5' step?
And, even more important, if you take a 5' step you can't use Teleport or Dimension Door?
To be clear, if DD and teleportation are movement you can't take a 5' step in the same round in which you cast them, but they aren't movement.
They are teleportation.When you make this kind of statement separate the refutes aimed at one person from those aimed at another.
I get that lumping them together is a great way to make the others appear confused and refuting what they say, but is the tactic of a demagogue or a lawyer, not a decent way to argue rules.
False.
1) I said that you must make a hoover check because teleport and dimension door isn't moving.
Do you honestly believe I was talking to you when I quoted Chell
You thought a Hover check was when you move less than half your move speed and then said you cannot take a 5ft step in the same round you teleport, and then said the reason why is because teleport is like a 5ft step with any amount of space in between, so please don’t fault me when I don’t take your opinion on how a flying Dimensional Dervish is supposed to work.It’s only never because no one in my group has every attempted that and our GMs keep waving the fly checks on everything… I had to remind them that fly checks were even a thing when my hawk familiar got shot by a bandit a few weeks ago. There are so many rules and checks for everything in Pathfinder that some simply get forgotten about in the heat of the moment during play. That doesn’t change the fact that the rules exist and they work specific ways. If someone were to perform a flying dimensional dervish attack and failed their fly check at the end of their turn they would in fact per the rules fall.Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
False.
1) I said that you must make a hoover check because teleport and dimension door isn't moving.
K, well if you quote it like this ----^, then it looks like you're responding to the last thing I said to Chell.
If you quote it like this -----v then it looks like you're responding to "Both of you".
Both of you. Honestly ask yourselves the last time you saw someone perform a flying Dimensional Dervish at less than 500ft and fall to his death in the same round due to a failed Hover check.
I'm just going to wager a guess: Never.
I'm half tempted to find out where you play and join your group, and make a Dex-based character with 1 rank of Fly, but by the time I'm level 11 and have Dimensional Dervish, I'm going to make sure I have exactly +14 on my Fly check with my 1 rank of Fly.
1 rank + 3 Class Skill + 5 Caster level bonus + 5 Dex = 14
Then, every time I Dimensional Dervish, I'll make sure that I deliver all my attacks, but my last Teleport for the round will always end in the air on purpose, so that way your Homebrew Hover rule gets enforced. And since I have a +14, I'll pass your Homebrew Hover check even with a natural 1, and I'm going to get up from my chair, put my hands on my hips like that Spongebob meme, and get 4 inches from your face: "HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, i pAsSeD yOuR hOmEbReW hOvEr cHeCk eeEERRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRR."
I'll make sure this character wears these just in case you pull any DM shenanigans and try to kill me with falling damage by increasing the DC due to a "sudden" wind gust or something.
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I'm half tempted to find out where you play and join your group, and make a Dex-based character with 1 rank of Fly, but by the time I'm level 11 and have Dimensional Dervish, I'm going to make sure I have exactly +14 on my Fly check with my 1 rank of Fly.
1 rank + 3 Class Skill + 5 Caster level bonus + 5 Dex = 14
Then, every time I Dimensional Dervish, I'll make sure that I deliver all my attacks, but my last Teleport for the round will always end in the air on purpose, so that way your Homebrew Hover rule gets enforced. And since I have a +14, I'll pass your Homebrew Hover check even with a natural 1, and I'm going to get up from my chair, put my hands on my hips like that Spongebob meme, and get 4 inches from your face: "HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, i pAsSeD yOuR hOmEbReW hOvEr cHeCk eeEERRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRR."
I'll make sure this character wears these just in case you pull any DM shenanigans and try to kill me with falling damage by increasing the DC due to a "sudden" wind gust or something.
Already said, and you don't need a dex based character:
And honestly, the flying rules seem to be among the more house ruled of Pathfinder rules. I rarely see anyone making checks unless they do something crazy.Table variation, I have always seen them used.
The simple truth is that most people that routinely fly have high skill levels in the fly skills, and often good maneuverability.
The Fly spell gives a +8 for perfect maneuverability and, as a minimum, a +2 for the CL of the spell. With a few skills, passable dexterity, and no encumbrance you can do almost all maneuvers while rolling a 1.
I'm half tempted to find out where you play and join your group, and make a Dex-based character with 1 rank of Fly, but by the time I'm level 11 and have Dimensional Dervish, I'm going to make sure I have exactly +14 on my Fly check with my 1 rank of Fly.
1 rank + 3 Class Skill + 5 Caster level bonus + 5 Dex = 14
Then, every time I Dimensional Dervish, I'll make sure that I deliver all my attacks, but my last Teleport for the round will always end in the air on purpose, so that way your Homebrew Hover rule gets enforced. And since I have a +14, I'll pass your Homebrew Hover check even with a natural 1, and I'm going to get up from my chair, put my hands on my hips like that Spongebob meme, and get 4 inches from your face: "HRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRR, i pAsSeD yOuR hOmEbReW hOvEr cHeCk eeEERRRRRRRRRRRRR DRRRRRRRRRRRRR."
I'll make sure this character wears these just in case you pull any DM shenanigans and try to kill me with falling damage by increasing the DC due to a "sudden" wind gust or something.
Already said, and you don't need a dex based character:
And honestly, the flying rules seem to be among the more house ruled of Pathfinder rules. I rarely see anyone making checks unless they do something crazy.Table variation, I have always seen them used.
The simple truth is that most people that routinely fly have high skill levels in the fly skills, and often good maneuverability.
The Fly spell gives a +8 for perfect maneuverability and, as a minimum, a +2 for the CL of the spell. With a few skills, passable dexterity, and no encumbrance you can do almost all maneuvers while rolling a 1.
So you even agree that there is no check required simply due to auto-pass, but you still feel the need to make up your own Homebrew nonsense and pick fights over nothing. That's fantastic. Thanks for contributing Diego, you're such a valuable asset to this community.
And you are the only one that thinks that teleportation fulfills the movement requirement of flying.
No, Teleportation isn't movement. Charging is.
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No, Teleportation isn't movement. Charging is.
And you are the only one that thinks that teleportation fulfills the movement requirement of flying.
And that is why you continue to divert the discussion away from Dimensional Dervish and to Dimensional Assault.
Why the fixation on something that isn't related to the question?
And now you're trolling. Fantastic.
No, Teleportation isn't movement. Charging is.
And you are the only one that thinks that teleportation fulfills the movement requirement of flying.
A DA charge is also not movement. It has some behaviors like charging (bonus to attack, penalty to ac, clear LoS to the target). Then it has some differences that it calls out.
Doing so allows you to teleport up to double your current speed...
The "movement" part of it is still a result of teleportation, and not actual game mechanics movement.
Teleporting is still teleporting (with all its advantages and limitations). Movement is still movement. They are not the same thing here.
DA, also as already noted, has no impact on how DD works. Its a prereq, but that is the end of any association between the two.
I think the disconnect in the convo reguarding DA is the "special charge" term.
Teleporting isn't movement, but charging is, so does this "special charge" use movement or not?Also, DD doesn't use the special charge, so that has no impact on DD at all.
The important word is “special” meaning “different from, unique”… so what is “special” about the charge performed by DA? That’s easy, it’s a teleport. So in otherwords, Dimensional Assault let’s you use Dimension door to make a charge that uses teleport in place of movement. And as established teleport is not movement.
The important word is “special” meaning “different from, unique”… so what is “special” about the charge performed by DA? That’s easy, it’s a teleport. So in otherwords, Dimensional Assault let’s you use Dimension door to make a charge that uses teleport in place of movement. And as established teleport is not movement.I think the disconnect in the convo reguarding DA is the "special charge" term.
Teleporting isn't movement, but charging is, so does this "special charge" use movement or not?Also, DD doesn't use the special charge, so that has no impact on DD at all.
Is this all still about whether or not a Fly skill check, or checks, might be required? Because holy $#!+, who possibly cares THAT much about being right on the internet? Literally nobody is ever going to sort through dozens of posts going back and forth like this... even if a 100% official answer was hidden somewhere in the middle of that argument [which there isn't], it helps nobody. Fly checks, really? Drop it. Let it go. Such a stupid thing to argue about... as if anyone is ever going to change anyone else's mind. What are people waiting for, the other side to have an epiphany? Lol.
I freaking love the rules arena...
No, it is about cyberbullying.
Ryze Kuja thinks that my posts are cyberbullying and say so while putting disparaging comments in three different threads. I was irritated enough that I did reply to his comments. At the end, we fixed on this thread.You can decide by yourself who is cyberbullying.
It isn't just this thread, or the other two threads that we were fighting in. You've been doing this for years Diego, and not just to me, you do this to everyone. It's like you "validate" yourself on this forum by nitpicking and correcting unimportant things people say simply because whatever they happened to have said 'could' be nitpicked. And then once you've picked a fight with someone and realize that you're losing the unnecessary debate you've started, you convolute the debate with red herrings until they give up.
So what's really goofy about this particular thread is that in the OP's original example, these PC's were on the ground, weren't they? And one of these PC's attacks happened to activate a hidden pit trap and fell, and the OP wanted to know if he could teleport back to ground on the other side of the BBEG to finish his remaining attacks or if the dimensional dervish is over. I told the OP that he could "rule of cool" it and allow him to teleport out of the pit to finish his attacks, or have the PC perform a dimensional dervish with a fly spell active and he wouldn't have to worry about falling in the pit and could make that attack normally. Exactly 10 posts later, you came in with your nitpicking that he would fall anyway if he failed a Hover Check. And let's think about this for a second; let's really shine a big Light spell on what you did. You came in and said he had to perform a Hover Check DC: 15 before making ONE ATTACK, not an entire round's worth of flying/attacking.
This can easily be avoided with a Fly spell, or any item that allows flight, so I think whether or not to enforce it like this is up to you as a GM. If it were up to me, I'd let him teleport out of the pit whether he made the attack or not, but simply for rule of cool reasons. The pit did stop one of his attacks, after all.
In Pathfinder Fly doesn't stop you from falling (it was different in previous editions). You can use it to avoid the fall damage (with a successful check). Standing in mid-air requires the Hover maneuver, but there is no time to take it when you suddenly fall.
The later example of an entire round's worth of flying/attacking came up because according to your first assertion, you would have to make a Hover Check before that one attack or fall into the pit trap. You defended this ludicrous idea until the argument became so convoluted that anyone reading this mess couldn't keep up.
I view Dimensional Dervish/Savant as an extension of Dimensional Assault, and I treat them as a special charge. You can dig at me all you want for that, go for it. The earliest chance you can have Dimensional Dervish online without any crazy multiclassing/minmaxing is about level 11, and this is either 1) a teleporting special charge that follows the movement rules (no fly check required if you move above half speed, or DC 10 if you move less than half your speed), OR 2) this works like you say it does and there would be a DC15 Hover Check. Either would be an auto-pass for a character of this level. So regardless, there is no fly check required.
You bring up ludicrous assertions as a form of "correcting" people and then "red herring" the argument as a form of defense knowing that no rules devs are coming in to correct you. Derklord curbstomps you when you attempt to "correct" him on a regular basis.
You remind me of my International Relations 101 professor I had in college; he was old and full of knowledge, but had zero real life experience. To a 16-19yr old student who also had zero real life experience, this guy seemed like he knew everything. I happened to start college when I was 29 yrs old and after I had become a journeyman in the Air Force and had traveled to ~150 cities on 4 different continents, so I already had enough real life experience to see through this guy and knew that the countries he professed to be an "expert" about, in truth, he had only read about it in books, and he never even visited the country even though he spoke as if he had. He was a teacher for a reason, and it's because he didn't and couldn't "do" anything else.
A few things to clear some things up. After this I am done with this topic.
If the individual is on the ground, then no, there is no hover check nor would there be one that round.
If the pit opens up and they have the ability to fly, they can make a fly check to avoid the damage from the fall, but they do still end up at the bottom of the pit.
“Avoid Falling Damage: If you are falling and have the ability to fly, you can make a DC 10 Fly check to negate the damage. You cannot make this check if you are falling due to a failed Fly check or a collision.”
Do note, the skill check does nothing more than negate the fall damage, the individual still falls.
If they have any movement remaining, (note: falling does not count against their movement in any form) then they can attempt to continue their attack assuming they have enough movement remaining to reach the surface.
And lastly… ONLY Dimensional Assault is a “special charge”. Dimensional Dervish is quite clear that it is a FULL ATTACK, and Dimensional Savant is an extension of DD.
Dimensional Agility - Dimension Door doesn’t prevent further actions
Dimensional Assault - Special Charge extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Dervish - Full Attack extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Savant - extension of Dimensional Dervish
DD and DA are both extensions of Dimensional Agility, but neither are extensions of the other, they are completely separate actions and function 100% differently.
And lastly… ONLY Dimensional Assault is a “special charge”. Dimensional Dervish is quite clear that it is a FULL ATTACK, and Dimensional Savant is an extension of DD.
Dimensional Agility - Dimension Door doesn’t prevent further actions
Dimensional Assault - Special Charge extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Dervish - Full Attack extension of Dimensional Agility
Dimensional Savant - extension of Dimensional Dervish
DD and DA are both extensions of Dimensional Agility, but neither are extensions of the other, they are completely separate actions and function 100% differently.
So story time: "Why does Ryze consider Dimensional Dervish to be a special charge?"
I had a PC during a gestalt campaign who was a SynthesistSummoner/Psion(Dual Disciple Egoist/Telepath) who got Fold Space (psionic equivalent of DDoor) and went the full feat chain of Dimensional Agility---> Dimensional Savant, but he also picked up the Dimensional Maneuvers feat and liked to Bull Rush people off cliffs or into spikes/lava/acid baths, but also liked to move with the Bull Rushed target because he could get Attacks of Opportunity by shoving them past other party members (who would cause him to provoke AoO during their AoO), or when they fell prone and then got back up if he shoved them into a wall or an occupied space.
This started plenty of debates at my table about how much he could actually move with the Bull Rushed target and then teleport, and then bull rush another guy and then teleport, in a round, and the only way to rectify it was to treat the whole thing as a Charge due to the conflicting verbages "You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so" in Bull Rush, "teleport up to twice your speed" in Dimensional Dervish. The conflict that arose was that Dimensional Dervish as written didn't allow for moving with the target of a Bull Rush due to "dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack, between each attack, and after your last attack", which only allows for "superman shove"-style bull rushing, not "american football"-style bull rushing, because teleporting isn't movement. And Dimensional Maneuvers doesn’t explicitly disallow the general rule of moving with the target of your Bull Rush.
So for me, it's a special charge that acts like Pounce but with teleporting and moving. It solves everything. If you want to treat it as something different, you do you.
And before anyone even @‘s me with "but that's gestalt/3pp" nonsense, a vanilla Monk could easily get all this and do the same thing. If you can come up with a better way to handle this, I’m all ears.
So story time: "Why does Ryze consider Dimensional Dervish to be a special charge?"
I had a PC during a gestalt campaign who was a SynthesistSummoner/Psion(Dual Disciple Egoist/Telepath) who got Fold Space (psionic equivalent of DDoor) and went the full feat chain of Dimensional Agility---> Dimensional Savant, but he also picked up the Dimensional Maneuvers feat and liked to Bull Rush people off cliffs or into spikes/lava/acid baths, but also liked to move with the Bull Rushed target because he could get Attacks of Opportunity by shoving them past other party members (who would cause him to provoke AoO during their AoO), or when they fell prone and then got back up if he shoved them into a wall or an occupied space.
This started plenty of debates at my table about how much he could actually move with the Bull Rushed target and then teleport, and then bull rush another guy and then teleport, in a round, and the only way to rectify it was to treat the whole thing as a Charge due to the conflicting verbages "You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so" in Bull Rush, "teleport up to twice your speed" in Dimensional Dervish. The conflict that arose was that Dimensional Dervish as written didn't allow for moving with the target of a Bull Rush due to "dividing this teleportation into increments you use before your first attack,...
So you acknowledge none of that is RAW at least. Could have saved a lot of time and posts if you had done that upthread.
All of that is fine for a GM to adjudicate/house rule. But not every GM would rule it the same way.
Note that normally you can only do a bull rush as a standard, or in place of the attack on a charge (so couldn't substitute it in for full attack action attacks). Though I'm trying to recall if there are any feats that allow for multiple bullrush attempts, and I'm thinking there is, but can't recall it atm. I presume if there are your player had that feat chain as well.
Edit: Looks like there are -
Bull Rush Strike (bull rush on a crit). Doesn't say anything about needing available movement to move with the target, but that is the default ruling absent a rule saying otherwise. So no full attack if you wish to follow the targets.
Shield Bash: Free bull rush on a shield slam. But you must have a move action or be able to take a 5' step to be able to follow through. So either one 5' step with one target, or no full attack here either.
You don’t need feats to make this work. Giant fist gauntlets allow free action bull rush on every unarmed strike and natural attack, and a monk would have lots of attacks, and so did this synthesist summoner with natural attacks. And I didn’t house rule anything. Dimensional Maneuvers is meant to work with Dervish, and you’re allowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the general rules, and you’re not disallowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the Dimensional Maneuvers feat. All of this is kosher per RAW.
If you want to change how any of that works, you would be one who is making up house rules. “Sorry, you can’t move with the target of your bull rush during Dimensional Maneuvers. I’m treating this as a teleport, so you can’t move with your bull rushed target.”
You don’t need feats to make this work. Giant fist gauntlets allow free action bull rush on every unarmed strike and natural attack, and a monk would have lots of attacks, and so did this synthesist summoner with natural attacks. And I didn’t house rule anything. Dimensional Maneuvers is meant to work with Dervish, and you’re allowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the general rules, and you’re not disallowed to move with the target of a bull rush in the Dimensional Maneuvers feat. All of this is kosher per RAW.
If you want to change how any of that works, you would be one who is making up house rules. “Sorry, you can’t move with the target of your bull rush during Dimensional Maneuvers. I’m treating this as a teleport, so you can’t move with your bull rushed target.”
I know I said I was done with this topic… but seriously… you are the one using houserules in this situation. First off, you’re “story time” admits to that fact even if you didn’t straight up say “we houseruled it” you acknowledged that the rules as written don’t work for how you wanted it to work, so you used your own ruling. That is the very definition of a houserule.
Second… a monk with Giant Fist Gauntlets cannot follow a target in a flurry of blows bullrush any more than a fighter with Shield Slam can. Shield slam permits the wielded of the shield to follow 5ft on a full attack as that is the extent of their available movement, and only if they have not taken a 5ft step yet, once done they can nolonger 5ft step and any further bull rushes cannot be followed through. Using giant fist gauntlets in a full attack is no different. You have 5ft of available movement once you have committed to the full attack. The Shield Slam feat doesn’t actually “grant 5ft of movement” nor does it “arbitrarily limit them to 5ft” on a full attack, it simply restates something that is already said in the Bull Rush rules in a more concise manner.
“You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so.”
This means you have to be capable of moving in that round to follow. You can make a single 5ft step in the same round that you full attack, so you always have 5ft of movement with which you may follow through in any round, unless something prevents you from taking a 5ft step (such as slow or difficult terrain). There do exist ways to get around the single 5ft follow through limitation on full attacks though, such as the Battle Dancer Brawler or Mobile Fighter archetypes, or even the Circling Mongoose feat…
Finally, with Dimensional Dervish you do in-fact still run into the issue of you do not have any available movement to follow through beyond a single 5ft step. The distance allotted to your teleports is not available movement. Not getting to follow through doesn’t have any impact on the functionality of the Dimensional Maneuvers feat either, the feat grants you a +4 bonus on your CMB for the maneuver regardless of if you can follow through or not, and it doesn’t apply to only Bull Rush either.
James Jacobs confirmed that the amount of movement you can perform while following your target during a bull rush is your total movement speed, and Chell you were even part of that discussion. So, I have no idea why you would say something like you only have 5ft of available movement in a round when you were involved in that discussion.
You can follow your target up to whatever your 'Available Movement' is, and your 'Available Movement' in a round is = to your Move Speed. If you don't like it, go take it up with James Jacobs and Paizo.
In 1E, if you're a human with 30ft movement speed and you perform a Bull Rush as a Standard Action and somehow defeat their CMB by 30, are you allowed to move with the target up to 30ft?
Only if you have that much movement to keep up. Bull rush doesn't grant bonus movement.
...You can move with the target if you wish but you must have the available movement to do so...
Right, I agree Bull Rush doesn't grant bonus movement, but rather uses up your "available movement", so one more clarifying question if you don't mind: if you haven't used a Move Action or a 5ft step yet, your "available movement" would be considered 30ft for that Bull Rush as a Standard, or even 40ft for a Barbarian (CMB roll willing), if I understand that correctly?Whatever your speed is is what your available movement is.
I didn't house rule anything. I allowed Dimensional Maneuvers to work as advertised per the proper bull rush rules.
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From the James Jacob thread you referenced:
But, for what it's worth: Bull Rush is a standard action or part of a charge. If you're doing it as part of a charge, your movement is part of that. If you're doing it as a standard action, then you can move with your target as part of that standard action, as long as you have the available movement to do so. A separate move aciton doesn't even enter the picture.
If you bull rush as a standard action, you only get a movement speed worth of movement to go with it. No need to use your separate move action. Why? Because a standard action bull rush gives you your movement speed as part of that standard action. Note that if you charge bull rush, you don't get a full charge of movement, end that movement with a bull rush and get an additional movement speed worth of movement on top of that. eg, the bull rush in and of itself does not grant movement speed worth of movement. The movement you can take as part of the bull rush is the movement allowed based on the action you are taking to perform the bull rush.
So how much movement does a full attack allow? Normally just a 5' step. So that is the movement you have available to you if you bull rush during a FAA.
Another way to look at the standard action bull rush is: As a standard action you can move your speed, and at the end of that movement perform a bull rush. Any movement you have not yet used can be used to follow the target.
So this could be: Bull rush an adjacent target and move up to 30' with them. Or Bull rush a target 30' away, and follow up to 0' more with them (assuming a movement speed of 30'). Or anything in between. Move 20', push and follow 10'. Move 10', push and follow 20'. etc.
5ft step and 5ft movement are two different things. One is a miscellaneous action, and the other is a move action.
In this case, you're performing a Standard Action to Bull Rush, and your Movement is part of this Standard Action. If you move 10ft with the target of your bull rush, you still have 20ft of movement that you can take with your move action, if you want to. Your Move Action isn't expended, but your "available movement" in the round IS expended.
However, Giant's Fist Gauntlets reduce this standard action bull rush to a free action, which is awarded upon each successful unarmed attack or natural attack.