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So do any of you guys think Rogues should have had a fighter's HD/BAB?
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The problem is that a lot of the design space has become too crowded. Maybe originally, the rogue should have been full BAB, but now that’s what the slayer is, and to a lesser extent the swashbuckler.
Ultimately, I think the rogue’s class abilities should have been better. Many talents are too weak. And they should have had built in styles to give different options. Unchained already does the finesse rogue. But we also need a ranged rogue with abilities to match and maybe even a bruiser rogue.
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The Rogue's design space is an odd one. He's the "Skill Guy", with more base skill points than other classes. His skill loadout includes critical skills that a "dungeon delving" party should want.
Unfortunately, while there will always be a situation that will require a skill on his list, there's a bit of Schrodinger's Rogue going on here- you can't have all the skills, and there will be times when some skills are useless- thus even with 8+ skill points per level, it's still very hard to be good at everything he can be called upon to do, and unlike a Wizard, he can't change his skill loadout as needed for a mission.
When it comes to combat, he's too fragile to really be a melee character, and has virtually no way to make his attacks more accurate. His design seems to think he'll always be attacking from a flanking position or against foes who are denied their Dexterity bonus, but he (or she, or it) lacks any real ability to make this happen.
Stealth is difficulty to use in the actual game, and foes that are immune to his signature ability, Sneak Attack, like Elementals, make him worse off than a Ranger- since a Ranger has decent combat ability even when not facing his hated foes.
The harsh limits on when, where, and how precision damage can be applied is a unique problem to the Rogue, as other classes can enhance their damage in ways that do not have this problem (I guess Rage is the closest equivalent, as Rage has sharp limitations, but in most fights, you will be raging).
Add to this that in those situations where a Rogue CAN deal immense damage, many GM's feel that the do "too much" damage, and try to add additional restrictions on how Sneak Attack works (a problem the Barbarian sometimes shares, with GM's claiming "well you're in a rage, you aren't thinking correctly").
Rogue Talents are a welcome addition, but many are badly designed. Compare and contrast the Ninja, who can generate Invisibility as needed to gain the ability to use their precision damage.
The Unchained Rogue solves some of these issues, and allows the Rogue to go all in on Dexterity after a few levels, which helps, but there's rarely any reason to go to Rogue 20- at some point, dipping other classes will make the Rogue better at what they do.
So what needs to be considered is what role the Rogue is meant to fill in the game. Is he the "oops, all skills" guy, who spends several turns in combat jockeying for a position to deal a single, massive hit? Then he needs more skills, and better ways to use Stealth so he can't be targeted.
Is he a secondary combatant who occasionally dishes out the pain? Then he needs less fragility and ways to increase his accuracy, like a Cleric, Magus, or Inquisitor.
The Rogue is held back by his legacy, as other classes can do what the Rogue does, and are more fun to play. We don't need a "trap guy" anymore, not unless traps are made to be more prevalent and interesting than they currently are.
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No. And quite frankly I believe a lot of people give rogue a bad rep through a misunderstanding of how the class functions.
Rogues are not meant to be in your face fighters, they are designed to be flankers. When playing a rogue you should always be flanking with someone, this brings up your to-hit slightly and is a massive improvement to your damage output. Ideally you would either finish weakened foes off or put them so low that the next hit from anyone will finish them.
Rogues low HP encourages you to utilize cover and concealment. The harder it is to hit you the safer you are, and since rogues are primarily melee combatants (when it comes to combat) you are at greater risk as a rogue than as a squishier class such as wizard. Also, a d8 is not a bad HD, D8 is average… remember only Barbarian gets a d12 HD, so realistically d10 is the top end HD, with barbarian being an outlier.
Rogues have the most skill points out of anyone, with even just a moderate INT a rogue can easily fill out all of their “necessity” skills and have points left over for things like knowledge skills. And honestly, rogues should put a few points into knowledges… specifically Dungeoneering, Engineering, and Arcana… Dungeoneering because it includes some of the most common Crit Immune creatures, thus making it easier for the rogue to know when they will be the weakest link in combat, but also because you can use Dungeoneering to learn about various methods traps and hidden doors might be disguised. Engineering and Arcana both similarly include various common crit immune enemies and can aid with problems such as locks and magical traps. Sometimes it is better to roll a Knowledge check on a lock or trap first before attempting to roll disable device… you can learn how hard it will be to disable with a lower knowledge check than your disable device check would need to be to actually disable it… and depending on the DC of the lock/trap you might find yourself better off avoiding it for now.
Now… slayers and swashbucklers both are designed to be effectively more combat oriented rogues… they lose out on skill points and gain better combat proficiency. The slayer has a weaker sneak attack, but can land theirs without always needing to flank or have a flat footed target due to studied target… this fact actually makes slayers better ranged combatants than rogues, since a rogue has a hard time setting up a ranged sneak attack. Swashbucklers are all in melee combatants, with some of the most potent tricks in the game for avoiding damage as well as some pretty solid damage output.
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The rogue was set up as a skill monkey. There are a couple problems with that though. First, spells can often replace skills while being more versatile. Second, the bard was at least as good at skills if not better, with its versatile performance. And if we step out of core, the investigator is still noticeably better at skills than even an unchained rogue.
Sneak attack is also a problematic mechanic as pointed out in this thread. Personally I think half the sneak attack dice should be default precision damage. So for example, if you would have 4d6 sneak attack dice, you instead always get 2d6 precision dice and the remaining 2d6 dice when you meet the traditional sneak attack requirements. This would round down so 3d6 would translate to 1d6 precision and 2d6 conditional. In that way sneak attack is almost always useful and just gets better in the right situation.
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No they shouldn't get Full-BAB, but they do need better stuff (Slayer is poorly designed class anyways).
I know this might sound like an advertisement but I stand by it all the same.
Check out Legendary Games' "Legendary Rogue" is goes into detail of all the issues that Rogues have these days and provides solutions (via alternate/new Class Features). Better still, its modular so if you think one/more things fix everything you have with the Rogue (but think other options are too much) you can drop them into the class with almost no effort.
Frankly I see it as essential if your thinking about 'fixing' the Rogue to read through it because it's very thorough about the "how and why".
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The rogue was set up as a skill monkey. There are a couple problems with that though. First, spells can often replace skills while being more versatile. Second, the bard was at least as good at skills if not better, with its versatile performance. And if we step out of core, the investigator is still noticeably better at skills than even an unchained rogue.
I was about to say basically this ^^
I love the Investigator, but it's the single worst designed class in the system. Why? Because it has 100% overlap in design space with the Rogue. There's nothing a Rogue can do that the Investigator can't do better. They have more skills, better talents , they can ignore flanking just decide when a "sneak attack" hits, and they have an in-built accuracy modifier. Oh yeah, and they're 6th level casters.
Now that's not necessarily a problem with the Rogue, that's a problem with system bloat. But you can say almost all the same things about the Bard. Sure the mechanics of Inspire Courage aren't the same as Sneak Attack, but even as a sneaky assassin type the Bard does a pretty bang up job.
I think the Rogue needs 2 things:
1. Either an accuracy modifier, or a better way to lock in Sneak Attack.
1.a) Accuracy. They don't need Full BAB, but something like +1 to hit per 2 Sneak Attack dice would work.
1.b) Better Sneak Attack. Or should I say having some way of guaranteeing Sneak Attack. Having this built into the class would make it more palatable, even just Improved/Greater/Two-Weapon-Feint as bonus feats or something. Or maybe giving the Rogue Improved feint, and then the ability to Feint as a Swift Action at level 8 would work?
I don't think you need the accuracy booster AND the Sneak Attack improvement, but one or the other would make the Rogue more fun to use in combat
2. Something to make their skills better. Signature Skills did a good job with this, but as someone said upthread the Wizard can change put their spells to be specific for each mission, while the Rogue has the same skills all the time. Maybe give them something like Martial Flexibility but for skills?
Now I don't necessarily think you need these changes. There are people who love the Rogue and play just fine with it how it is. But I do think it's lost a bit of design space personality.
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- Rogue's main class feature, and their main source of damage, does "precision damage". Yet the class can't make precise attacks. That alone is bad design.
From a game design view, a pure melee with medium BAB, no attack roll bonuses, no good defensive ability, and the worst possible saves is simply a pure failure. It shames me that the writer of unRogue didn't have the balls to fix that.
Rogue doesn't specifically need full BAB, but then it would need a good attack roll bonus. Out of all (non-full casters) medium BAB classes, each one except Rogue, Ninja, and Mesmerist have a non-spell means to improve their attack roll.
Right now, the class is a mix-and-mash of different non-synergetic concepts. The strong damage bonus makes it somewhat predestined for TWF, but the low BAB and lack of accuracy boost work against that. The backstab flavor and overcall class theme (and low BAB) would make sense on a class geared towards making few, powerfull attacks, but with delayed access to Vital Strike, lack of synergy with it, and Sneak Attack (and the related Rogue Talents) not supporting thatmakes such a playstyle inefficient. And lastly, the class is supposed to be a "jack of all trades" and have an answer to every situation, but the need to invest a ton into fixing basic issues, and having Rogue Talents be vastly overshadowed by even other classes abilities (e.g. Rage Powers) not to mention low level spells, shuts that down hard.
The best Rogue fix idea I've heared was to give the class the Vital Strike chain, and let the feats multiply SA dice. The class needs more than just that, but it'd be a very good start - and carefully striking the enemy's most, well, vital point does make a lot more sense class-flavor wise than trying to get lucky while flailing wildly at the target.
Indeed, a focus on few, powerful attacks would give it a niche - something it doesn't have. At all.
The problem is that a lot of the design space has become too crowded.
That's because Paizo realized Rogue sucks, but instead of buffing it gave us replacements (Ninja, Slayer, Investigator, Archaeologist Bard, etc.). But no matter how good these replacements are, or how well they fit the player's character concept, they lack the number one thing the ordinary Rogue player is drawn to: The name. People don't pick Rogue because it's the best at sneaking (it isn't), or the best at skills (it isn't), or the best at a backstabby playstyle (it isn't) - they pick it because the class is named Rogue, and they believe that's what makes them hard and edgy.
quite frankly I believe a lot of people give rogue a bad rep through a misunderstanding of how the class functions.
Rogues are not meant to be in your face fighters, they are designed to be flankers.
No, Rogue has a bad rep because a melee who can't be "in your face" (or can't do it's job in such situations) is a waste of party space.
@Lynceus: Wow. That was probably most well-considered post I've seen in months!
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Thanks, Derklord. I've had a lot of time to think about the design of my favorite games, and the Rogue is always the Class I'm most disappointed in. Why? Because I like the Rogue. I'd like to play Rogues! I love skill points, and the idea of being the "clever hero" who defeats his opponents with cunning and panache (and not a small amount of luck) is very appealing.
But that's not what the Rogue is. He seems lackluster at everything, other than his impressive 8 + Int skill points, which, as has been pointed out, isn't as impressive when you consider other Classes. The Investigator's Inspiration alone makes them better at Skills than the Rogue, not to mention the Bard's way to save on Skill points.
The last time I played a Rogue (this was, in all fairness, pre-Unchained), I realized that making the typical "artful dodger" character was going to end in dismal failure. So I went Angelkin Aasimar, made Strength my high stat, got myself proficiency in the Glaive, and poked at things with reach, figuring "well, if I get sneak attack, that's gravy, but I'm not going to rely on it".
And I did just fine as a result...until we got into a fight where I was able to reliably flank, and suddenly my extra 3d6 damage per hit was noticeable. At which point the GM broke down and said "your damage is OP!".
He didn't seem to understand why I broke down laughing for a good ten minutes. It's not that Rogues can't be made to shine, they absolutely can, but they need help to do so. In an Emerald Spire game, I made a Fighter to basically be our Rogue's "designated flanking partner", and we both loaded up on Teamwork Feats so that it would be easier for me to get into position, and provide him with superior Flanking benefits.
He was a Tengu. I'm sure you can see where this is going. My character wasn't terrifying dangerous by himself, but thanks to me, the Rogue obliterated most enemies. But it still strikes me as odd that the Rogue has to have this kind of outside help to function, when every other Class has the ability to themselves to some degree or another.
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If I were to give them full BAB, I'd reduce their to-hit by 1 for every 4 levels when doing sneak attack damage. It gives them a benefit when they can't sneak attack, extra attacks a little earlier, and lets them fulfill prerequisites faster. But their sneak attack to-hit stays the same.
A minor HP change doesn't matter too much, a d10 isn't going to make them much more viable melee combatants.
If I were to do anything with rogues, I'd make it so that their class level was used as their caster level when activating magic items. They're already good with disabling some spell effects, and it would give them access to cheap flexible defenses.
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Combat ability is not the rogue’s big problem. He may not be able to match the full BAB classes at combat, but that was never what the class was about. What the rogue was supposed to be is the skill master. The problem is that 2 extra skill points per level do not make them that much better than other classes at skills. Too many classes were able to match or even exceed the rouge in skill points.
The other problem is that other than disable device all classes can do the same thing as a rogue with skills. About the only advantage a rogue had with skills was the bonus to perception and disable device from trap finding. This led to the situation where there was literally nothing that a rogue was better at than any other class other than finding dealing with traps. Talents were supposed to give the rogue something special but for the most part they did not. Many of the talents were once per day and most did not scale up as the rogue leveled up. Many of the talents also focused on combat, but for the most part those were also weak.
Pathfinder Unchained did improve things a little. Getting weapon finesse for free and later DEX to damage gave the rogue a needed boost in combat. Debilitating Injury also gave the rogue more option in combat. These pretty much fixed the problem with the rogue in combat. Now the rogue is about where they should be as far as combat.
Skill unlocks were supposed to be what made the rogue a true skill masters. The big problem with skill unlocks is that they don’t really come online until late in the game. Most of the really interesting abilities require 15 skill points. Many games never reach this level and even those that do take a long time to get to that level. You also don’t get them until at least 5th level and then you only get 1 for every 5 levels. Cutting Edge is an advance talent so that is not available until 10th level. This means that skill unlocks are pretty much a late game class ability that many rogues never get much use out of.
What they really should do is to get rid of trapfinding and replace it with a more flexible class ability. Call it skill mastery and allow the rogue to choose two skills at first level that they get a bonus equal to half their level (minimum of 1) on the skill of their choice. Have a rogue feat called Extra Mastery and allow a rogue to gain the bonus on a third skill. You could also have a rogue talent or maybe an advance talent that allows a rogue to gain the bonus on a third skill. This would mean also go a long way to making rogues more unique. Now instead of having all rogues be good at finding traps you can have one who is good and talking his way out of things, or sneaking up on things, or any number of other specialties.
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It's not that Rogues can't be made to shine, they absolutely can, but they need help to do so.
But it still strikes me as odd that the Rogue has to have this kind of outside help to function, when every other Class has the ability to themselves to some degree or another.
I think something missing here is that every class is supposed to be used in a party. Where a Rogue often shines is in a party with other Rogues. If 2 or 3 members of the party are going for flanks and getting massive bonus damage the effectiveness of each Rogue increases.
The real problem with the Rogue is that other classes aren't really incentivized to help the Rogue out. No other class really needs flanking or stealth to be effective, so the Rogue doesn't really have help unless someone else is specifically building around helping the Rogue.
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I would rather make rogues better at what they are supposed to excel in rather than make them more like fighters. So something like giving them hide in plain sight at level 1, or a rogue talent at every level instead of every second level, or the ability to use any skill untrained a limited number of times per day.
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The real problem with the Rogue is that other classes aren't really incentivized to help the Rogue out. No other class really needs flanking or stealth to be effective, so the Rogue doesn't really have help unless someone else is specifically building around helping the Rogue.
True, but a build that naturally pairs very well with the rogue is summoning. Naturally drops a lot of flanking partners in the best positions for rogues to take advantage of.
Also, simply having a large party can help with this situation. My game with a party of 3 hardly ever gets flanks, while my game with a party of 6 has flanks all the time.
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I would rather make rogues better at what they are supposed to excel in rather than make them more like fighters.
And how does one make up for -10 to attack rolls over the career, only 1 good saving throw, low maximum HP, a complete lack of spellcasting, and 1 fewer attack each turn?
Like the Rogue can't afford to spend their resources on doing Rogue things because every ounce of energy needs to be directed into "Not being an Expert NPC" in combat. It is entirely possible to play the Rogue and succeed at combat, you can build nearly anything to be effective with enough game knowledge.
Would +5 to attack rolls, +1 HP per level on average, an extra attack late game, and a better saving throw really be harmful to the fantasy of playing the rogue? I argue not. With those kind of buffs the Rogue could spend some talents on things that aren't a desperate attempt to keep up with everyone else.
Right now the Shifter is a better put together class than the Rogue and it makes me very grumpy.
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I would rather make rogues better at what they are supposed to excel in rather than make them more like fighters.And how does one make up for -10 to attack rolls over the career, only 1 good saving throw, low maximum HP, a complete lack of spellcasting, and 1 fewer attack each turn?
Like the Rogue can't afford to spend their resources on doing Rogue things because every ounce of energy needs to be directed into "Not being an Expert NPC" in combat. It is entirely possible to play the Rogue and succeed at combat, you can build nearly anything to be effective with enough game knowledge.
Would +5 to attack rolls, +1 HP per level on average, an extra attack late game, and a better saving throw really be harmful to the fantasy of playing the rogue? I argue not. With those kind of buffs the Rogue could spend some talents on things that aren't a desperate attempt to keep up with everyone else.
Right now the Shifter is a better put together class than the Rogue and it makes me very grumpy.
If you close all those gaps you don’t have a rogue anymore you have a fighter/wizard hybrid. The solution is to give rogue abilities that are thematically consistent with being a rogue and that other classes don’t have. Abilities like:
Hide in plain sight
An extra move action every turn
Ten foot step (double five foot step)
A way of resisting divination spells
Skill specialisation (like what Mysterious Stranger suggested)
Hypnotism like abilities
Countermeasures for unusual senses (like life sense)
Being uninhibited by squeezing
Easier ways to make foes flat footed
Ability to be easily overlooked in combat
Ability to act in the surprise round
Sleep with one eye open
Forgettable appearance
Unique combat manoeuvres based on misdirection
Ability to fight normally while prone
Able to stand as a swift action
Parkour type abilities
A way to dodge supernatural abilities
A way to hide their alignment
An ability to contact the local criminal underworld
A way to sabotage spell resistance
A way to partially circumvent armour (and natural armour) bonuses.
Etc.
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Maybe if they simply had an ability that would allow them to be considered to be flanking any opponent an ally was also threatening. A teamwork feat would be good for that, since it would require other players to also take it and most melee's would see it as being worth taking.
[url=https://aonprd.com/FeatDisplay.aspx?ItemName=Gang%20Up]Gang Up[/ur]
Its utility depends on the number of melee combatants in your party and your willingness of spending a feat to take Combat Expertise.If you have a party member who uses summoning or has an animal companion it should work well.
Note that party members with reach will make it way easier to use.
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Maybe if they simply had an ability that would allow them to be considered to be flanking any opponent an ally was also threatening. A teamwork feat would be good for that, since it would require other players to also take it and most melee's would see it as being worth taking.Gang Up (link fixed)
Its utility depends on the number of melee combatants in your party and your willingness of spending a feat to take Combat Expertise.
If you have a party member who uses summoning or has an animal companion it should work well.
Note that party members with reach will make it way easier to use.
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I would rather make rogues better at what they are supposed to excel in rather than make them more like fighters.And how does one make up for -10 to attack rolls over the career, only 1 good saving throw, low maximum HP, a complete lack of spellcasting, and 1 fewer attack each turn?
You don't "make up for that", making up for that would just make them a Fighter, that's the point. Rogues aren't meant to be as good at combat as a Fighter. If you want a class that plays like a Fighter, play a Fighter .
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The really miserable thing about Rogues is the 8 skill points per level. Now a layman would look at that and think "WOW, 8?!!?!? skill points?! That must mean they're REALLY good at skills!" But reality is that they're just about as good as anyone with a skill rank...or worse if that person is flexing with a spell.
Frankly, Unchained is still pretty miserable. A Rogue spends it's whole career desperately trying to make up for all of it's failings. It gets so so little room to make actually flavorful decisions. This is where Rogue Talents SHOULD shine, but so many are so so awful. Like Derklord mentioned earlier, literally the only appeal the Rogue has is writing "Rogue" on your sheet at this point.
So how to fix the Rogue?
-Give it a good Fort or Will save
-A decent accuracy booster
-Something like the Phantom Thief's Refined Education should just be something they get for free to make them ACTUALLY good at skills.
-Make good Rogue Talents. Imagine if they were anywhere near as good as Vigilante talents.
-Give them a refillable pool of gold to retroactively purchase stuff. Something like this, but extraordinary and not requiring a spell point.
Or just play Spheres of Power/Might, the best way to play Pathfinder 1e.
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Rogues aren't meant to be as good at combat as a Fighter.
I missed the class feature that reduces the party's APL if a Rogue is present. Which one is it?
I've said for a while that Rogue suffers from the same problem as the Cleric...
Absolutely not. The Cleric suffers from lack of features and can feel "same-y" across characters. Rogues frequently fail at their basic concepts.
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As long as the rogue is not using something like power attack or a similar feat they have the about the same chance to hit as a full BAB class of the same level using one of the above feats. Most full BAB classes will be using a feat similar to power attack all the time. Pathfinder Unchained gave the rogue weapon finesse and DEX to damage to boost up their combat ability. While they do not automatically get a bonus feats or other ways to boost their chance to hit they can spend their normal feats on for this and even take a few rogue talents for this. The real problem with the rogue is not their chance to hit, but rather their damage. Using a two handed weapon that can be used with weapon finesse can help with this. It may cost a feat but is usually well worth it. An Elven Curve blade with its 18-20 crit range is probably the single best weapon for a rogue to use. The rapier is also a good weapon for the unchained rogue if they don’t want to spend the feat. While this may not be enough to raise the unchained rogue up to the level of a fighter it does allow them to contribute to combat in a meaningful way even without sneak attack. Add in sneak attack and debilitating injury on occasion and the unchained rouge is ok in combat.
All other classes get multiple class features designed to make them the best at what they do. Fighters bravery, armor training and weapon training in addition to extra feats. Barbarians get fast movement, rage, and uncanny dodge, trap sense, and damage reduction in addition to rage powers. Rangers and paladins get a bunch of class ability in addition to spells. All a core rogue gets is a bonus to one skill and a situational bonus to another, evasion and uncanny dodge besides rogue talents. The unchained rogue also gets finesse training and debilitating injury. They do get 2 extra skill points, but that is pretty weak. Rogue talents were supposed to be what gave the rogue the edge but all other martial classes get something at least as strong if not stronger. Fighters get bonus feats, barbarians get rage powers, rangers and paladins gets spells.
Part of the idea of giving the rogue medium BAB and less HP was they would make up for it in other ways, but they do not. Giving them full BAB and 1d10 HP would solve that problem, but it still does not solve the problem of the rogue being the best at what they do. 2 Extra skill points are not enough to make the rouge the skill master he is supposed to be.
What the rogue needs is things that actually boost the rogue when he is doing “Rogue Things”. Like I said in the previous post skill unlocks were supposed to be that but they fall short. If the rogue got them earlier and you did away with the skill point requirement that might do it. Allowing the rogue to choose his first “Signature Skill” at 1st level and then gaining one every 5 levels seems about right. Drop the benefit so the rouge gets the first benefit starting at 1st level and gaining the latter benefits at 5th and 10th level. Also give the choses skill a bonus of +1 for every 2 levels (minimum of 1). This might require a little reworking of the benefits. For example being able to disarm magical traps could be the benefit of disable device. Make these changes in the unchained rogue and you have a class that is more than acceptable.
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The low combat ability seems to come from the stories that inspired the class. A lot of the classical fantasy rogues don’t do a lot of fighting. They are more about evasion and trickery. And when they do kill it’s usually more sneaky and assassination style.
And really I think the rogue combat ability would be fine, if they were great in the out of combat part of the game, but they just don’t own that space like they should.
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If you close all those gaps you don’t have a rogue anymore you have a fighter/wizard hybrid. The solution is to give rogue abilities that are thematically consistent with being a rogue and that other classes don’t have.
So it seems folks are misreading that sentence, its not a laundry list of the things Rogues need to be a functional class. It's a list of flaws that other "skillful" classes have that the Rogue does not. Bard has the Rogue's skill points and spellcasting. Alchemist has the Rogue's skill points and spellcasting. Investigator is the king of skill checks and has spellcasting. Slayer has full BAB, sneak attack, and solid skill points. Swashbuckler is the king of finesse and has full BAB (though Swashbuckler has its own problems I won't get into here).
While I agree that a full rework of the Rogue, giving it some kind of fun new class feature would be advantageous. I also fully think that any kind of Rogue rework should either keep the current stats and give it spellcasting of some sort OR make it a full BAB class. Its actively absurd that the Rogue (and by extension Ninja and Vigilante) doesn't have one of those two features.
You don't "make up for that", making up for that would just make them a Fighter, that's the point. Rogues aren't meant to be as good at combat as a Fighter. If you want a class that plays like a Fighter, play a Fighter (in fact I think for about half the people who have a problem with the Rogue this is the actual problem).(and just because I feel like being pedantic, Fighters only have 1 good save, and they also can't cast spells.)
If your argument for the Rogue having decent stats is that would make them a fighter, its pretty clear then Fighters are A: a better class. Which is insane because B: Fighters suck too. I've gone into the ways that the Fighter lacks any kind of unique identity in other topics, so I won't get into that. Instead I'll talk about about the things the Fighter gets that would still differentiate them from a Full BAB Rogue.
Namely: Not being locked into Finesse fighting. The Ability to wear non-light armor. Ranged combat that can take advantage of the Fighter's limited class features. +5 to Hit through Greater Weapon Focus and Weapon Training. Advanced Weapon Training that allows for: improved saving throws, ANOTHER +5 to his attack rolls with Warrior Spirit, the ability to dual wield one handed weapons, teamwork feat abuse, more skill points (up to a value of +4 total which is 6 skill points a level effectively), and he can stack up all of the Advanced Weapon Training Bonuses he wants because he can take it a total of 7 times.
I could go on, but I won't. But I could.
Nudging the Rogue's numbers up enough doesn't remove his limited selection of proficient weapons. It doesn't make him able to use heavier armor. It doesn't let him sneak attack from ranged (one of the hardest things to do in the entire game past the surprise round) so he's still stuck in melee. It doesn't make him able to one man army his way through a fight the way a Fighter could. He still would be reliant on sneak attack and his allies to position themselves intelligently.
I honestly don't understand why some people are so vehemently opposed to this change. Giving the Rogue full BAB doesn't make it a fighter any more than the Fighter having full BAB makes it a Paladin. Multiple classes have this chassis and they differentiate themselves by way of their actual class features and gameplay.
Look, I'll be honest in my games a lot of classes are house ruled to be better. Rogue is one of them, Fighter is another. Every class has 2 good saves and one bad save. Rogue's have full BAB progression and d10 HP. Sneak Attack is multiplied on Vital Strike. It all feels really good to play, especially because this applies across the board. So all the Rogues in APs also get these buffs. They go from jokes to actual threats.
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Rogues are not meant to be in your face fighters, they are designed to be flankers. When playing a rogue you should always be flanking with someone
I have to go back to this, because I realized that you're actually objectively wrong: "In the end, any who desire to shape their fates and live life on their own terms might come to be called rogues." CRB pg. 67 That's from the Rogue class description. "Shape your own fate, live on your own terms" and "you need to flank, relying on the help and positioning of others" are literally polar opposites.
And unchained didn't do jack about that. Indeed, they actually added to the reliance on Sneak Attack, because they de-facto accuracy boost is also keyed to it. Talk about putting all your eggs into one basket.
A number of comments saying that Rogues have no accuracy booster but that's what I consider debilitating injury, the penalty to AC when you land the first attack is substantial and really helps
Sure... their attack roll is on par with a Fighter (not counting Improved Weapon Focus, Gloves of Duelling, Warrior Spirit, etc.) after they've hit. It's simply another thing that only works part of the time on a class whose main combat issue is that it's unreliable.
As long as the rogue is not using something like power attack or a similar feat they have the about the same chance to hit as a full BAB class of the same level using one of the above feats.
Yeah, but those classes have accuracy boosters of their own (Weapon Training, Rage, Favored Enemy, Smite Evil, Studied Target, Cavalier’s Charge, Banner), or other things that help them hit (bonus attacks, targetting touch AC).
And really I think the rogue combat ability would be fine, if they were great in the out of combat part of the game
I strongly disagree. Considering the prevalence and importance of combat in an ordinary campaign, a character that's not good at combat simply has no spot in a party. A Rogue would need to far surpass spellcasting for out of combat utility to pull off what you describe, and the system simply doesn't support that. At the very least it would need a whole new subsystem with not-technically-but-still-kinda-casting à la Kineticist.
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And really I think the rogue combat ability would be fine, if they were great in the out of combat part of the gameI strongly disagree. Considering the prevalence and importance of combat in an ordinary campaign, a character that's...
It's not like a rogue is useless in combat though. They are just unusually reliant on teamwork. It's not a solo class, but this isn't a solo game. Being a little weak in combat and really great in the noncombat would be fine for most games. Maybe if all you're doing is a dungeon crawl where you never interact with anything that you don't kill, then rogue just isn't a good fit for that campaign. But that's not a problem with the game itself.
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With 5 PCs and an AC, the rogue IMC gets to flank quite a bit, and holds up very nicely in damage when he does and connects with TWF. Pretty weak when he doesn't, of course. Defence is a bit of a problem, though. And I suspect it'll all get worse at higher levels, but as all martials fall behind it's not unique.
I feel that skill unlocks might provide a way through this. Instead of the meagre crumbs they now get, how about ALL the unlocks automatically? Lots of flavour and some real combat utility. It's a bit of a bump to get them at levels 5, 10, 15, 20 because it's rather like getting another 8 weak feats each time, but I can't see anything otherwise problematic. Multiclassing would also allow gaming this. So choosing 1 skill at 5th level and every level after should be OK.
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Rogues aren't meant to be as good at combat as a Fighter.I missed the class feature that reduces the party's APL if a Rogue is present. Which one is it?
Don't do that Scavion, it's not "cheeky", it's debasing what should be a discussion about how to improve something, ans turning it into "Rogues are Teh worzt coz I doesnnn't like them!".
A Bard isn't as good as a Barbarian at killing things, but it's still a perfectly viable class. Making the Rogue into a Fighter doesn't improve the Rogue, it just gives us the Fighter. All the players who want to play the Rogue but are dissapointed will still be disappointed, because you're not giving them something they can use as a Rogue, you're just giving them the Fighter, which they already have.
I DO think the Rogue needs a combat buff, bit homogenising everything is the opposite of helping. I think giving the Rogue some ability to use Sneak Attack that isn't reliant on flanking or stealth, and giving thek a slight accuracy buff are a good idea, but it still needs to remain fundamentally the Rogue class.
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If we're making sneak attack easier to perform, there are two methods I've thought about:
1: Adding additional conditions - For example allowing Sneak Attacks to be performed against creatures that are Shaken or Dazzled
2: Changing Flat Footed to be any AC penalty - This adds the Prone condition alongside other methods of triggering sneak attack, including the Rogue's built in debilitating injury.
But even then, what fixes the Rogue is giving them +5 over their career to hit through some manner. Improvements to Flanking bonuses, the ability to flank with their own shadow or some such, some kind of conditional attack bonus against enemies suffering from certain conditions, etc etc etc
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As much as I hate to suggest it, you could also take the 5e approach, where Sneak Attack has most of it's restrictions lifted, and it effectively just becomes "that thing the Rogue does each turn".
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As much as I hate to suggest it, you could also take the 5e approach, where Sneak Attack has most of it's restrictions lifted, and it effectively just becomes "that thing the Rogue does each turn".
I mean, you can kinda do that anyway with Improved Feint, you just have to take the feats/skills/whatever for it. I almost feel like if Improved/Greater Feint were available as Rogue talents it might solve the problem.
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Frankly you could gestalt the fighter and rogue and it'd still be pretty meh.
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Frankly you could gestalt the fighter and rogue and it'd still be pretty meh.
Heh. I was thinking about that the entire time. We actually had a solid thread about it back in the day. You could literally gestalt the Fighter and Rogue and it was STILL pretty lame.
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Bah, all those "rogue problems" are just cases of bad GMing. A good DM would set up some special challenges for the Rouge to solve while the rest of the party is fighting. Eg. in a battle with a dragon, the Rouge solves a puzzle in the room which is so easy with so many skill points.
Or you know what? Tucker's kobolds in tunnels. Thanks to their high Dex and again, lots of skill points, the Rouge will be so much more effective in such an environment. You can't swing your big bulky sword in narrow corridors Mr. Fighter, but a dazzling quick thrust from a Rouge's rapier will prevail.
Really, it's all about GMs not being creative, likely due to too much easy mode video games these days.
*This might have been a satire post*
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Part of the problem is oddly that pathfinder made so many things easier from 3.5. Consolidating spot and listen meant that everyone could and should invest in perception. On top of that, the trap finding ability used to be required to find any trap with a spot DC over 20. So the rogue was the eyes of the party. Scouting was way more important when you weren’t just expected to walk around with a party full of eagle eyed observers.
The rogue was given as many buffs as any other class when converted to Pathfinder. And the rogue wasn’t often considered weak in 3.5, except for the usual caster vs martial issues. But it turned out that the other changes made to the game still left them further behind.
Addendum: Also having 8 skill points per level and a lot of class skills was a bigger deal because of how skills worked. At first level you would get 4 times your skills per level to distribute.
If you buy a class skill, your character gets 1 rank (equal to a +1 bonus on checks with that skill) for each skill point. If you buy other classes’ skills (cross-class skills), you get ½ rank per skill point.
Your maximum rank in a class skill is your character level + 3.
Your maximum rank in a cross-class skill is one-half of this number (do not round up or down).
You can see how much versatility this gave someone starting out as a rogue.
Basically, Pathfinder made a lot of small changes that all seemed to have side effects of diminishing what the rogue was supposed to be. The changes themselves may not have been bad, but they all seemed to work against the rogue’s advantages.
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It's not like a rogue is useless in combat though. They are just unusually reliant on teamwork. It's not a solo class, but this isn't a solo game. Being a little weak in combat and really great in the noncombat would be fine for most games. Maybe if all you're doing is a dungeon crawl where you never interact with anything that you don't kill, then rogue just isn't a good fit for that campaign. But that's not a problem with the game itself.And really I think the rogue combat ability would be fine, if they were great in the out of combat part of the gameI strongly disagree. Considering the prevalence and importance of combat in an ordinary campaign, a character that's...
Actually, a rogue can work well as a solo class, if there weren't clanking companions negating his stealth and forcing him to stay in combat instead of doing hit and run attacks.
With the right build, a rogue can attack from stealth and be away and hidden again before an opponent without combat reflex could react. But using that kind of tactic will annoy the other players.|
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One solution, not to the rogue in particular, but to the small difference between people for which a skill is a class skill and those for which it isn't is to make the gap larger.
3.x allowed you to have only 1/2 of your level in skill points in a class in which you weren't trained. That is excessive, but I am testing a different approach and it works reasonably well. An untrained skill skill points can be taken only on a 3/4 basis. To be clearer, if you are untrained in Perception you can take 1 point in it at 1st level, the second at 2nd level, the third at 3rd level, but at 4th level can't take a point. Then at 5th level, you can take the fourth point in perception.
That way a rogue will slowly get an advantage in his chance of using stealth, and his advantage in skill on other classes will broaden.
I have chosen the +1, +1, +1, - progression instead of the more common (in game) -, +1, +1, +1 because I feel it is more appropriate.
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Being effective in combat is more than just dealing out damage. There are other ways to deal with an opponent besides hitting them with a big stick. Making him a stand and deliver combatant seems to be counter to the idea of the class. The rogue is supposed to be a trickster and usually fights dirty. Fighting dirty usually involves some form of combat maneuver. The problem with this is the rogue is not setup to do this well. The big problem with combat maneuvers is they are difficult for the rogue to get and their lower BAB makes them less effective with them.
Pathfinder Unchained allows an unchained rogue to pick up improved steal as a rogue talent without having to take combat expertise. When they do that they can also pick up greater steal without meeting the prerequisite. Allow a rogue to take any improved combat maneuver as a rogue talent as without having to meet the prerequisite, and allowing them to pick up the greater version of the combat maneuver at 6th level. Replace debilitating injury with the unchained monks maneuver training would allow them to become the combat trickster they should be. A rogue would be able to take this talent multiple times, but each time it would either allow them to pick up the greater maneuver or apply to a different maneuver.
Being able to pick up improved feint at 2nd level would also make getting sneak attack a lot easier.