Rogue Fact Checker's page

Man, I read through all of this and it just seems to me that many don't see how to build a decent combat rogue.

Knifemaster rogue with dagger, TWF build, Haste item and any one of a number of ways to be invisible. Piranha Strike, add an element or two to your weapons, dex item. all easily obtained with WBL.

you'll have one of the highest AC's in the party, you'll probably go first in init. attacks go against flat footed, always get sneak attack damage, at around 10th level you'll be getting around 5 attacks per round, each doing roughly 3d6 + 5d8 + 10 on each hit. on par with most sword and board fighters

Pick up the rogue talents that give you flanking, against the wall, etc. so you get to do backstab way often.

Oh, and you'll still have more skills than anyone in the party.

If I had a nickel for every time someone said "Knifemaster TWF Rogue is gud". Paraphrasing but still.

Since it apparently needs to be said again, compared to a competently built Ranger/Alchemist/Bard/Investigator, this theoretical Rogue has:
-Worse Saves
-No longer has Trapfinding
-Worse accuracy
-Worse damage(Goes hand in hand with accuracy)
-Worse at any skill any of the above actually care for since they actually get class features to make them better such as Stealth, Social Skills, Kn. Checks or just all of them because Investigator throws on rad shades
-No Spells~

For all that you get...+2 Skill Points per level. Wow! You also really won't have more skills than anyone in the party unless everyone is allergic to Rangers, Alchemists, Bards, Investigators, Inquisitors etc etc.

Old school required reading on Rogues.

The Unchained thread is shorter because all Unchained really does is help Dex Rogues not be QUITE so terrible, but still fails in all regards with survivability.

Strength Rogues are legit, no qualms there. Just not really my cup of tea or what I feel Rogues should be thematically built around as the design philosophy.

Something else that needs to be said. Even with premium system mastery, the Rogue often teeters at the brink of death. When things like Shaken, Sickened, Negative Levels, Difficult Terrain, and pretty much any other complex scenario occur, they begin to deathspiral far, FAR faster than any other class.

It's a byproduct of both the poor bab and worst saves. Once penalties start flying, the oftentimes barely acceptable ability of the Rogue begin to fail catastrophically. This is a pretty wide blanket statement, but I still believe that any Rogue living past 8th/9th level from 1st is a result of:

-Softball DMing
-Absurdly high wealth
-Absurdly good stats for PB or rolling
-Just has really hot dice
-Their group may not understand the rules completely and are houseruling/ignoring a lot of things that completely gut Rogues like dim hallways.

Or more likely, a combination of the above.

Rogues aren't meant to be as good at combat as a Fighter.

I missed the class feature that reduces the party's APL if a Rogue is present. Which one is it?

That is a bit cheeky, but the point remains that every person in the party is expected by the game to contribute more or less equally in combat.

I've said for a while that Rogue suffers from the same problem as the Cleric...

Absolutely not. The Cleric suffers from lack of features and can feel "same-y" across characters. Rogues frequently fail at their basic concepts.

The really miserable thing about Rogues is the 8 skill points per level. Now a layman would look at that and think "WOW, 8?!!?!? skill points?! That must mean they're REALLY good at skills!" But reality is that they're just about as good as anyone with a skill rank...or worse if that person is flexing with a spell.

Frankly, Unchained is still pretty miserable. A Rogue spends it's whole career desperately trying to make up for all of it's failings. It gets so so little room to make actually flavorful decisions. This is where Rogue Talents SHOULD shine, but so many are so so awful. Like Derklord mentioned earlier, literally the only appeal the Rogue has is writing "Rogue" on your sheet at this point.

So how to fix the Rogue?

-Give it a good Fort or Will save
-A decent accuracy booster
-Something like the Phantom Thief's Refined Education should just be something they get for free to make them ACTUALLY good at skills.
-Make good Rogue Talents. Imagine if they were anywhere near as good as Vigilante talents.
-Give them a refillable pool of gold to retroactively purchase stuff. Something like this, but extraordinary and not requiring a spell point.

Or just play Spheres of Power/Might, the best way to play Pathfinder 1e.

Edit: I know you don't want to hear it but....

The best way is to play something that doesn't depend on the mechanics of sneak attack for damage that is otherwise thematically similar and can deal a lot of damage.

To be honest that doesn't narrow it down much because many classes can have about as many skills as the rogue and better bonuses to the skills (because of class features) and have better bonuses to attack and damage.

If you don't mind the religious & magic parts of the class, the Inquisitor is probably better if every possible way than the rogue.

To parrot this, The Investigator is the definitive master of skills and is a similar role as a Rogue with more consistent damage. Not to mention the extracts. Trapbreaker Vivisectionist is essentially identical to a Rogue minus crappy Rogue Talents.

Dex-based Human Slayer6/RogueX with minimum 13str to qualify for Power Attack and maxed out Stealth, with Hellcat Pounce + Cornugon Smash + Shatter Defenses is probably the best way to do it. You can have all of this online as early as level 7.

I'd go:

Human Slayer (FCB: 1/6 Slayer Talent)

Dex > Cha > Str 13 > Int > Con = Wis

Critique mode activated. Will Saves will be an Achilles Heel. This is a death sentence past 8th level. Underhanded doesn't actually work unless you have a very nice GM. You cant take the action to draw a concealed weapon in a surprise round if you also want to attack. The stats also look bleak. This is a turbo glass cannon and leaves zero room for making mistakes.

A 20 PB looks something like

Str 13, Dex 16, Con 10, Int 12, Wis 10, Cha 14?

Immediate changes I would make are:
Dropping Child of the Moon for Indomitable Faith and Reactionary(Especially since this build badly wants to go first).
Heart of the Fey for the Low-Light Vision and +1 Will
Too much invested in the surprise round, consider dropping Hellcat Pounce for Dampen Presence(Will save your bacon vs special senses)
Ring of Chameleon Power is too expensive(a 4th! of your GP at 9th) and not enough bang for buck. Shadow Armor is cheaper and by the time you need a +10 Stealth item, you can just pay for Improved or Greater Shadow Armor.
Drop a feat for Iron Will. You need it.

There are a lot of creatures that no-sell Non-lethal(All the sap stuff) and Intimidate(Immunity to fear/Mind-affecting). Undead, one of the most plentiful enemy types in the game, are immune to both.

Honestly? The fastest way to lock in Sneak Attacks would be just to take 1 level of Snakebite Brawler and Gangup. You are your own ally so as long as one other person is adjacent to the enemy, you get sneak attack. If you just go full slayer, you could pick up Hurtful as a feat which combos extremely deadly with Cornugon Smash.

TriOmegaZero wrote:

The1Ryu wrote:

Dude why are you casting me as the bad actor here, I'm just having a discussion

No, you are not. You are not even attempting to see the conversation from any viewpoint but your own. You are denying everything that anyone else says and putting forth your viewpoint as the only valid one. For there to be a discussion there must be the possibility of changing minds. Yours has appeared to be made up from the very first post.

No I’m making counter points and when people’s arguments involve them misrepresenting game rules to say the other game is better that just shows they are incorrect. Also why am I the only one who has to be willing to change their mind, which I’m looking for example to prove you point not asserting points for mine, should those that choose to engage in the conversation also be willing to change their mind?

There are easy arguments you can make vs PF2e and the same against PF1e. Saying PF1e can be overly complex to it's detriment is a fact. It's a simulationist game vs a more Rules lite game. The fact that PF2e has less rules minutiae is a simple fact. Do I think that makes it a "better" game? No. Do I believe that can carry it's own appeal? Sure! Do I think you might be disingenuous with some of your arguments? Yes, some bordering on intellectual dishonesty.

Maneuvers being awful without the feat is a simple fact. You provoke, and if the attack of opportunity hits, take anywhere between 1-40 penalty on your maneuvers now. Baiting AoOs so you don't provoke is always a crapshoot.

There are literally hundreds of threads proving mathematically and thematically that the Rogue is an awfully designed class. Same with Fighter pre-weapon master handbook. There's no reason to play a Rogue besides having the words "Rogue" on your character sheet.

Was I saying something?
So again we are always back to the same the core clasees have been out shined by the expansions. Has anyone every listed a list of things to add to the core classes to get them back to the expanded classes in abilities?

Well, most of the core classes are fine. The Qinggong Monk(And various other archetypes or Unchained) more or less fixes the Monk and the Fighter is in a playable state after the Weapon Master's handbook. If I had a remaining complaint, it's that you still need quite a bit of system mastery to make Monk/Fighter good. You need to know your options and going in blindly can accidentally create situations where the player is simply not having fun.

Even in Core, the Rogue holds up poorly compared to the Ranger or Bard. This is because those classes get class features that amplify their skills beyond what just a skill rank gives them. Bards get the best of both worlds, they get to make a bunch of their skills perform checks and change their stat dependency to Charisma on top of Bardic Knowledge. Then add spellcasting on top of all that. This is why people talk crap about the Rogue.

You could gestalt the Core Fighter and Rogue together back then and it would still only be about as good as a Ranger in combat and worse than a Ranger out of combat.

Here's a thought experiment as a first step. If you change all the once per day Rogue Talents to at will, would it be broken? The answer is not really. All the issues that plague the Rogue are still present, but now they can get a few magic tricks or use their skills in a different way.

You could...
-As an immediate action, grant yourself a 50% miss chance against a single attack[Shadow Duplicate]
-Get temp hp to avoid dying[Resiliency]
-Move without provoking so long as you hit your target with a melee attack[Positioning Attack]
-Cast Knock[Occult Dungeoneer]
-Cast one 1st level spell at will[Major Magic, requires Minor Magic]
-Make Drow Poison DC13 Fortitude for 25gp a dose that spoils within 24 hours[Knockout Queen]
-Cast Innocence[Innocent Facade]
-Reroll a skill check selected as a Skill Unlock and take the better.[Certainty]
-Make an ally attack an enemy as an immediate action when the Rogue misses[Assault Leader]
-Forgo sneak attack to make an enemy treat all other creatures as though they had concealment temporarily on a failed Fortitude save[Obscuring Blow]
-Dispel light sources[Extinguishing Strike]

None of these are really that wild. Advanced Talents are similar although a few should probably be once every minute or something along those lines. Even if you didn't, it still wouldn't even be that impressive either. Especially when you consider what post 10th level play is like compared to Full Casters or Half Casters.

Quixote, I guess the question you have not answered or left unstated was why does the Rogue in your opinion need the ability to do damage equal to the front liners?

The answer is two-fold. It's that the Rogue doesn't bring enough to the table out of combat as well. Skills-wise you are trumped by the Bard, Alchemist, Inquisitor, Slayer, Ranger, Investigator(My gods are they so much better at Skills). Combat-wise, these classes bring more to the table as well as being more self-sufficient. In many cases, some of these classes can "copy" a similar Rogue build and perform more effectively.

A one level dip in Pathfinder Delver actually gives you the sole defining feature of a Rogue and makes you better/more consistent at Trapfinding.

So, the rogue. A d8 HD, 3/4 base attack class that, in combat, contributes only with an attack roll.

I've heard talk of increasing their HD and base attack, and I like the thought behind it, but I've come up with a slightly different, unique-but-still-hopefully-simple option:

1. A flat, untyped bonus to AC like the monk.
2. A bonus on attack rolls against enemies that are eligible for sneak attacks equal to 1/2 rogue level (minimum +1).

I am fine with the rogue being less durable than a fighter, as well as less accurate in normal situations. I am also, to a point, okay with rogues being less efficient in combat in exchange for being significantly more efficient outside of it.
The AC bonus helps a little, and the attack bonus essentially makes them a 5/4 base attack class in the right scenarios, while still keeping their attack progression behind full base attack classes.

It feels like a simple fairly elegant solution that doesn't go too far. If I adjust some of the rogue talents (like making the decent ones good and the cool-but-meh ones free every few levels?) and how sneak attacks work, I think it'll go a long way. Thoughts?

Some hurdles Rogues must leap through:

Unchained helps a ton with both Accuracy and AC through Debilitating Injury. Problem is that Skill Unlocks were/are kind of a flop so for out of combat utility, a Ranger/Alchemist/Bard still bring more to the table. This is pretty critical since Out of Combat is where the Rogue SHOULD shine if their combat potential is only supposed to be mediocre or average at best.

Spheres of Might Rogues are pretty neat since it decouples martials from the full attack paradigm and actually makes Rogues good at stealing in the middle of combat.

As a rogue, you're getting pretty close to the point where Two-Weapon Fighting falls off really hard so you may want to consider retraining out of those and trying the Dirty Trick route.

The reason it's about to fall off is 6th level and up you start running into Damage Reduction regularly and the -2 penalty to attack rolls starts to matter more as Armor Class begins to scale faster. I would consider the Brawler dip or if they let you move your stats around a little just taking Combat Expertise and Gang Up.(You are your own ally so as long as someone else is fighting the same enemy, you benefit from flanking and sneak attacks)

To summarize:
1. Rogues have no inherent accuracy booster. They are the only class without accuracy boosters. This is especially dreadful as Sneak Attack synergizes with Two-Weapon Fighting.

2. Rogues are average at skills. They do not gain class features that make them more effective(Except Trapfinding) or versatile when using said skills. Every other skill based/Rogue replacement class in the game has features that boost their skill checks beyond what simple skill ranks can give.

3. Reflex only good save is painful as it is the saving throw least likely to instantly put your character out of commission.

4. More than 80% Rogue Talents are trash. =(

5. More than 80% Rogue Archetypes are trash. =( The only standout is the Eldritch Scoundrel and that is so sad because it trades away half of everything the rogue has for some spellcasting.

6. Most rogues have to spend the majority of their Wealth, Feats, and Class Features just trying to get access to reliable Sneak Attacks. It doesn't become completely solid until around 13th level.

As for why they aren't? Sacred cows mostly.

*twitches*

Everything seems to be in order...

UUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUURGH.

ROGUE ASSUMPTIONS.

LACK OF ACTUAL IN DEPTH ANALYSIS, ITS LIKE OP NEVER SEARCHED ANY RECENT TOPICS ON ROGUES.

Look mate. Rogues do not exceed at skills. Rogues are only capable of the very BASELINE that every other person who plops a skill rank into a skill are capable of. You have the same bonuses as any other class to skills EXCEPT ALL THE ONES ACTUALLY GOOD AT SKILLS BECAUSE THEY ACTUALLY GET SKILL BONUSES. Rogue Talents that allow you to use your skills in a new/useful way are incredibly lacking. The only in class bonuses a Rogue gets on skills are Perception and Disable Device in regards to Traps that never exceed DC34 in any published material. All Rogues CAN be(but not always) fast talkers and good at Stealth, but ANY of the more suitable classes will be FAR far better than the Rogue at such. A Ranger for instance is much much better at Stealth due to Favored Terrains and through some spells. A Slayer has more synergy with intimidate than a Rogue. A Bard is a better diplomancer than the Rogue is. Basically, theres a class that does it better the moment you decide to specialize as a Rogue AND if you were fine with being mediocre at all your skills, a Slayer still probably has a better baseline to work from.

What encounters are you ending before getting into combat? Are you sneaking in and coup de gracing folks in their sleep? Are you diplomancing the trigger happy guard at the gate? Other classes perform these sorts of things with far greater efficacy with some having the bonus of being able to cast a spell to help in addition.

The "Utility" a Rogue brings to the party is nonexistent. The only utility offered is 2 more skill points per level and his wealth.

*Deep Breath*

And a lot of the other stuff you said isn't really accurate either!