Dark Archives PCs - what are you making?

[AnimatedPaper]

Fwiw, I actually think Paizo would be very pleased to see a bunch of memes light hearted characters inspired by their classes. I would be, because the salient part to me would be “my class inspired a bunch of characters”.

As long as your fun isn’t disruptive to the rest of the table, why not lean into whatever joy you find?

[Archpaladin Zousha]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Like I've seen significantly more characters who started out "basically happy, light-hearted, and a little bit of a goofball" who went into some really dark places than characters who started out in the dark and became fun. If I was interested in figuring out a character on the dourer side of things, I would want to know more things about the campaign than "it theoretically exists" since I want to attach to specific campaign-relevant themes for that sort of character.

Indeed, the "joke character develops a surprisingly dramatic character arc through play" is a common RPG table story. And in all honesty, experience has shown me that even if you DO make a serious, dramatic character, they'll inevitably end up looking silly at some point, when that d20 comes up a natural 1.

[Shinigami02]

As long as it doesn't wind up being Rare (like all the Undead options were, but I don't see that being an issue with a class... yet) I have the intention to play a great many Thaumaturges. Pact-verse Practitioner expies, Supernatural-type Hunters, maybe a few painted-over meme characters, honestly not a single other class so far has had me as excited as the Thaumaturge. Psychics... were less inspiring, but I'll probably still mess around with them. Gotta love a good Spont Caster.

Unfortunately I don't have anything more concrete than that, because I try to fit the details to the campaign (and the tone my party-mates are heading towards) but yeah.

[aobst128]

The thing I found really cool about the thaumaturge's class design is the subclasses. Mixing and matching implements has a lot of potential outcomes. Never have we gotten a martial with a subclass count like a caster.

[keftiu]

Shinigami02 wrote:

As long as it doesn't wind up being Rare (like all the Undead options were, but I don't see that being an issue with a class... yet) I have the intention to play a great many Thaumaturges. Pact-verse Practitioner expies, Supernatural-type Hunters, maybe a few painted-over meme characters, honestly not a single other class so far has had me as excited as the Thaumaturge.

I’m in the same boat for the Psychic, funnily enough! Got a half-dozen or so of them planned, for all sorts of potential campaigns.

Here’s hoping I actually like the final class :p

[Perpdepog]

For the thaumaturge I'm looking forward to messing around with the pact feats. I'd like to make a character like a goodly mirror of Felix Faust who habitually plays supernatural beings off against each other, and tangles up the claims they have on their soul so badly that it's not entirely clear that anyone knows who owns said soul.

I know there will be a Pactmaker archetype, and I'll go to that instead if thaum isn't exactly what I'm looking for in a character at the time.

[WWHsmackdown]

I'm struggling with thaumaturge ideas bc all the Constantine characters in my head are intelligence and not charisma. It's a personal hung up for sure, but focusing charisma AND intelligence is gonna be pretty rough.

[keftiu]

WWHsmackdown wrote:

I'm struggling with thaumaturge ideas bc all the Constantine characters in my head are intelligence and not charisma. It's a personal hung up for sure, but focusing charisma AND intelligence is gonna be pretty rough.

That's my big frustration with the class as well. All of the Thaumaturges I can point to in media are smart, not charismatic! It feels like a very think-y archetype to me, and I can't shake it.

[The Raven Black]

I do not see Constantine as an INT-guy at all, while I feel CHA fits him completely. To each their own I guess.

[aobst128]

I think a lot of examples in fiction that could fit the thaumaturge have both intelligence and charisma in extreme abundance.

[PossibleCabbage]

The Raven Black wrote:

I do not see Constantine as an INT-guy at all, while I feel CHA fits him completely. To each their own I guess.

The cause of his problems has always been either his lack of wisdom or his lack of intelligence, depending on the story that needs to be told. It's never his lack of moxie.

[AnimatedPaper]

aobst128 wrote:

I think a lot of examples in fiction that could fit the thaumaturge have both intelligence and charisma in extreme abundance.

Yeah Granny Weatherwax is sharp as anything, but also so charismatic she could tell you: “You feel a lot better” if you were sick, and it would actually become true.

[Squiggit]

To some extent that's the problem with trying to adapt fiction into D&D (or a problem with D&D's stat generation, if you prefer). A character can have an iron will, but not necessarily be perceptive. They could require knowledge, but not necessarily be smart in general. They could have a lot of moxie, personality, and social energy, but still be kind of bad at talking to people.

So how do you quantify a character who's good at a couple things you might tie to different stats, but not everything related to that stat?

... That said I will agree the playtest Thaumaturge felt stretched thin and like it needed every stat at once. At the very least I'm hoping the Thaumaturge has better HP and saves than it did in the playtest.

[The Raven Black]

I hope high WIS and high INT Thaumaturges will be enjoyable.

[Ly'ualdre]

John Constantine is certainly a fairly smart guy, but his gimmick comes from his ability to warp reality to favor his own narrative, often through "chance" encounters and "lucky" draws; but also his capacity to smooth talk his way in and out of nearly everything. Like how no demon can fully claim his soul because he's managed to twist the terms of their deals in such a way that none of them truly know who his soul belongs to. That screams CHA to me. He would likely have a middling INT for sure. But his intellect is more street smart (in a sort of "streets of the mulitiverse" kind of way) than academic.

That said, the madness of the class is certainly crazy. Basically needs good stats in every ability. It's much too late to suggest this and would likely never be done, but it would be kind of neat if you choice of implement gave a bonus to you ability scores. Like, having a weapon implement gives you the choice between STR or DEX, wands INT or WIS, chalice CON. That could help. Definitely wouldn't be done though. Lol.

[AnimatedPaper]

Depending on the options available, I'm probably going to try and recreate one of my Inquisitors using the thaumaturge. Casting was never too important to my concept, so the basic magical abilities, and the amulet implement, should carry quite a bit of weight. The ability to say a short invocation while brandishing my holy symbol (amulet), and so create a weakness in my enemy, sounds pretty fun.

[aobst128]

The amulet concept I would do would be to be that guy from the mummy that has every holy symbol with them and switch them out when needed.

[The Raven Black]

aobst128 wrote:

The amulet concept I would do would be to be that guy from the mummy that has every holy symbol with them and switch them out when needed.

Beni was indeed mentioned as one of the inspirations for the class and its mechanics.

[AnimatedPaper]

aobst128 wrote:

The amulet concept I would do would be to be that guy from the mummy that has every holy symbol with them and switch them out when needed.

Or given my insistence on pulling from Discworld, I could have the Count's deck of cards that each have some kind of holy symbol.

[aobst128]

The main thing I want to change from the playtests is weapon choice. I hope to see a thaumaturge with a bow or greatsword. I'm not sure why it was strictly one handed melee.

[Ly'ualdre]

aobst128 wrote:

The main thing I want to change from the playtests is weapon choice. I hope to see a thaumaturge with a bow or greatsword. I'm not sure why it was strictly one handed melee.

Likely because the idea is a Thaumaturge has an Implement in each had most of the time. Still, no reason it should be restricted, seeing as how one would have up to three Implements at some point. So you'll have to switch eventually.

[aobst128]

Ly'ualdre wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

The main thing I want to change from the playtests is weapon choice. I hope to see a thaumaturge with a bow or greatsword. I'm not sure why it was strictly one handed melee.

Likely because the idea is a Thaumaturge has an Implement in each had most of the time. Still, no reason it should be restricted, seeing as how one would have up to three Implements at some point. So you'll have to switch eventually.

Yeah, generally you would want to use one handed weapons so as to hold your implements. They added a weird way to quick draw your implements as the 7th level ability to manage your hands better. The apparent one handed choice didn't need an additional restriction. Hopefully there's gonna be an option or 2 for wearable implements like a mask or cloak to support 2 handed weapons.

[Shinigami02]

aobst128 wrote:

The main thing I want to change from the playtests is weapon choice. I hope to see a thaumaturge with a bow or greatsword. I'm not sure why it was strictly one handed melee.

...except it wasn't restricted to one handed or melee? Heck, as far as the "melee" part, hand crossbow was explicitly called out as an option in playtest, and the reaction explicitly worked (although only to 10 foot range) for ranged weapons. One-handed is probably preferred because you have to have a free hand (or other implement) for the Implement's Empowerment damage bonus, but that wasn't directly linked to weapons anyways and was probably to make up for how everyone but a Weapon implement Thaumaturge is locked into one-handed weapons because they have to hold the implement.

[aobst128]

Shinigami02 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

The main thing I want to change from the playtests is weapon choice. I hope to see a thaumaturge with a bow or greatsword. I'm not sure why it was strictly one handed melee.

...except it wasn't restricted to one handed or melee? Heck, as far as the "melee" part, hand crossbow was explicitly called out as an option in playtest, and the reaction explicitly worked (although only to 10 foot range) for ranged weapons. One-handed is probably preferred because you have to have a free hand (or other implement) for the Implement's Empowerment damage bonus, but that wasn't directly linked to weapons anyways and was probably to make up for how everyone but a Weapon implement Thaumaturge is locked into one-handed weapons because they have to hold the implement.

One handed melee or ranged did work. You're right. But because you still needed a free hand or had to hold another implement while attacking, it was mainly thrown options. Hand crossbow being not a great option because of loaded. Repeating crossbow worked alright. It was the bonus damage to one handed that either should be included to other weapons or forgotten about.

[aobst128]

A hand cannon could be pretty fun with a thaumaturge though. Esoteric antithesis could just be shoving some relevant esoterica into the barrel.

[Ly'ualdre]

I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but one should be able to hold a 2H weapon with one hand, just just can't wield. So you should be able to Release as a Free Action, use any ability that requires a Free Hand, and then spend Interact Action at some point to reaffirm your two-handed grip on you weapon. So I suppose it's technically not restrictive. Just, a few more steps.

[aobst128]

Implements empowerment works when you make a strike. So as soon as you're making a 2 handed strike, it stops working.

[aobst128]

To be fair, implements empowerment does work well to support the typical outcome, but something like a bow could use that bonus damage as well. They might just scrap it in the final release. It's a little arbitrary in my opinion. Or they could tie it to esoteric antithesis.

[Ly'ualdre]

That is peculiar, now that I read the ability. It seems odd to me that you can't use you Weapon Implement to make these same mystic patterns before the Strike happens. Strange.

Anyways, more ideas. This one pulling from an idea someone mentioned in in the LO: Impossible Lands thread: Genie Eidolons.

Male Keleshite, Thaumaturge/Summoner MC (or vice-versa, not sure yet) -- A young man from Qadira who one day stumbled upon an strange oil lamp. He had always heard stories of Genies being bound and trapped inside of them, forced to grant wishes to those who freed them. While this particular lamp didn't actually house a Genie, it was his very belief in these stories that bound one to him. Assured of these stories more than ever now, he wondered if the tales of other magical items of power may also be true. He adventures in search of further items, alongside his Genie Eidolon.

[The Raven Black]

Still have my idea of a Thaumaturge pirate with all these trinkets from all over the world and beyond dangling from his clothes and his beard.

A Thaumaturge in the ranks of the knights of Lastwall sounds good too. Exploring all beliefs in all places to find even more tools to fight the Undead and all minions of Evil.

[The Raven Black]

The scholar/inquisitive aspect of the Thaumaturge led me to imagine a character who is focused on using what their opponents fear to actually hurt them. So, a kuthite Thaumaturge exploring the power of fear and how it relates to pain.

I would love to be able to fruitfully take Investigator MC on this character.

[The-Magic-Sword]

I don't think I mentioned it earlier in the thread, but I like the idea of a dream shaping Psychic-- so that Unconscious mind mentioned in the playtest analysis about fabricating objects and such is actually really cool to me.

[Ly'ualdre]

I am rather hoping to see a Concious Mind that plays with Evocation a bit. I feel like that would be the wheelhouse of characters like Ness/Lucas, as they don't really feel like Kineticists to me. Perhaps flavor it less as "mental control over the elements" and more "convincing the mind it's experiencing those elements". Like, there isn't actually fire, but the enemy believes there is, causing their own mind to burn their own body. So maybe a sort of fusion between Evocation and Illusion magic.

There aren't many Evocation spells on the Occult spell list; but maybe their Psi Cantrip allows them to take force or mental damaging spells and alter then to do elemental damage instead.

Idk, the idea sounds good in my head. Not sure how they could execute it.

[Perpdepog]

I'd love an evocation-focused psychic discipline. One of my potential psychics is a ghost who has a habit of throwing lightning around and talking about unlimited power and I hope I can make that workable without having to multiclass.

[pixierose]

So I have an idea that I would love to do. It's another Thaumaturge and it started off a bit goofy. It was basically Ariel as a Thaumaturge and coming up with false uses for items.

But now I really love the idea of an Azarketi who collects implements from what has fallen to the depths. Maybe Even turning to the techniques of the Thaumaturge to prepare themselves against the risk of Alghollthu's.

[keftiu]

pixierose wrote:

So I have an idea that I would love to do. It's another Thaumaturge and it started off a bit goofy. It was basically Ariel as a Thaumaturge and coming up with false uses for items.

But now I really love the idea of an Azarketi who collects implements from what has fallen to the depths. Maybe Even turning to the techniques of the Thaumaturge to prepare themselves against the risk of Alghollthu's.

That’s actually brilliant - and they could chase after Azlanti relics!

[pixierose]

keftiu wrote:

pixierose wrote:

So I have an idea that I would love to do. It's another Thaumaturge and it started off a bit goofy. It was basically Ariel as a Thaumaturge and coming up with false uses for items.

But now I really love the idea of an Azarketi who collects implements from what has fallen to the depths. Maybe Even turning to the techniques of the Thaumaturge to prepare themselves against the risk of Alghollthu's.

That’s actually brilliant - and they could chase after Azlanti relics!

Ohhh yes exactly!

[Ly'ualdre]

Baku Baku - Male Goblin Beastkin (Tapir), Psychic (Tangible Dream, maybe) -- Baku Baku isn't entirely sure how he came to be, only that he was. A strange little creature with the head of a Goblin and trunk of a Tapir; Baku Baku, like many Goblins, had a voracious appetite. Unlike other Goblins, his was very specific. He subsisted off of the nightmares of other creatures, somehow eating away their bad dreams to satiate himself. In doing this, he gained potent Psychic abilities, able to manifest various objects from those nightmares he's consumed. Through this, he lives a rather simple existence. He adventures to eats, nothing more, nothing less. His only concern is to satiate his hunger.

Inspired by the Baku Yokai, as well as Drowsee and (less so) Hypno from Pokémon.

Female Wellspring Gnome, Silent Whisper Psychic/Bard MC (or vice-versa) -- A mute young woman with a melody in her mind; while lacking a voice, her potent psychic abilities allow her to sing to her hearts content, planting her voice within the minds of those around her. She hopes to one day discover her true voice, so she may share her song with all who would listen.

Not sure how well this would actually work. Given the Psychics ability to switch Verbal components with Mental ones, it should be theoretically possible. Their innate spell from their heritage would me Message from the Occult list. Given that it's at will, this should allow them to communicate with those around them.

pixierose wrote:

keftiu wrote:

pixierose wrote:

So I have an idea that I would love to do. It's another Thaumaturge and it started off a bit goofy. It was basically Ariel as a Thaumaturge and coming up with false uses for items.

But now I really love the idea of an Azarketi who collects implements from what has fallen to the depths. Maybe Even turning to the techniques of the Thaumaturge to prepare themselves against the risk of Alghollthu's.

That’s actually brilliant - and they could chase after Azlanti relics!

Ohhh yes exactly!

With any luck, maybe my dream of High Seas content will come this year, along with Merfolk. ^^

[VampByDay]

So, I just thought of something.

A lot of people have been saying that the big problem with a thaumaturge (as of the playetest) is that there is no way to wield a shield and attack and have an implement/free hand for implement empowerment. But I just realized that there are a few ways around that:

Firstly is any ancestry that gets a bite attack. Orcs can do it, Goblins can, Kobolds, several others I am sure. Meaning a bitey character with fistwraps of mighty blows could have a shield in one hand, an implement in the other, and still attack with their bite.

Secondly a Tengu just automatically has a beak attack. No Feat or heritage required. Just grab aforementioned fistwraps and a shield and implement and you are good to go.

In fact, any heritage can do this if they are part teifling. If they are, they can take the 1st level ancestry feat 'form of the fiend' and get either a bite, tail, or hoof attack (just as long as you don't select claws) and boom, shield, implement, ability to attack.

[Gaulin]

Can't wait to hear more about the new classes ('esp'ecially psychic) during paizocon. Maybe even a couple new ones to playtest? I'm one of those who like to see mechanics of the class first, before making a character concept.

[aobst128]

VampByDay wrote:

So, I just thought of something.

A lot of people have been saying that the big problem with a thaumaturge (as of the playetest) is that there is no way to wield a shield and attack and have an implement/free hand for implement empowerment. But I just realized that there are a few ways around that:

Firstly is any ancestry that gets a bite attack. Orcs can do it, Goblins can, Kobolds, several others I am sure. Meaning a bitey character with fistwraps of mighty blows could have a shield in one hand, an implement in the other, and still attack with their bite.

Secondly a Tengu just automatically has a beak attack. No Feat or heritage required. Just grab aforementioned fistwraps and a shield and implement and you are good to go.

In fact, any heritage can do this if they are part teifling. If they are, they can take the 1st level ancestry feat 'form of the fiend' and get either a bite, tail, or hoof attack (just as long as you don't select claws) and boom, shield, implement, ability to attack.

Yeah, unarmed attacks work well for a thaumaturge with occupied hands. That's why kitsune is a common concept here because of foxfire.

[WWHsmackdown]

Psychic multiclassed with devotion phantom summoner to make a psychic that projects an astral form to smack things. I can dig it. Honestly I'll just keep putting psychic characters in here everyblue moon until the book drops

[Perpdepog]

WWHsmackdown wrote:

Psychic multiclassed with devotion phantom summoner to make a psychic that projects an astral form to smack things. I can dig it. Honestly I'll just keep putting psychic characters in here everyblue moon until the book drops

This just reminded me there is an outside chance of us seeing new eidolons in this book all over again. The hype has become reality.

[Ly'ualdre]

Honestly, with the time based options here, I would love to see a Siktempora Eidolon. I doubt we will see it, so I'll accept some new ones to use as enemies. ^^

Female Tian-Min, Psychic/Rogue (or vice-versa)/Assassin -- A hired killer from Minata, she ran away from her clan after a certain event happened. Now adventurers in an attempt to stay alive, hiring out her skills to those she believes have been wronged. She fights using a sort of psychic dagger, created through her Tangible Dreams. Inspired by Marvel's Psylocke

[VampByDay]

Spoilers for Abomination Vault Book 2:

In that book a young ‘ish’ daughter of the mayor named “Dorianna Menhemes” develops ‘burgeoning psychic powers’ and is the source of a side quest by an evil creature. Since the AP canonically has happened like, 1 1/2 years ago, she could be nearing adventuring age with a pretty cool backstory. Pretty cool character idea for a psychic in an AP I think.

[WWHsmackdown]

Next psychic, enigma bard or curse witch that multiclassed psychic. The pursuit of eldritch knowledge unlocks the third eye.......but at what terrible cost?!?!?! (cue musical sting)

[Ly'ualdre]

Which reminds me, we are fairly likely to get an Afclords Archetype, which are all about opening their Third Eye. Curious to see it it'll have any interaction with the Psychic at all. Which makes me wonder, just how many mages in Nex are Psychics?

[Ly'ualdre]

Double post to remind everyone that this thread is likely going to explode with ideas in a week, and I can't wait. :D

[keftiu]

Ly'ualdre wrote:

Which reminds me, we are fairly likely to get an Afclords Archetype, which are all about opening their Third Eye. Curious to see it it'll have any interaction with the Psychic at all. Which makes me wonder, just how many mages in Nex are Psychics?

That Third Eye got a Skill Feat in LOWG that was tied to Arcana, not Occultism; that + Nex not having Access for Psychics in the playtest says to me that they’re pretty scant.

Nexian mages likely consider arcane magic king, and see psychic stuff as a distinctly Vudran tradition. Jalmeray being right next door means they probably know that psychic magic exists, but I imagine that within Nex’s borders, they’d be viewed as a curiosity.

I do hope that something like 1e’s Nexian Channeler makes it into LOIL, and I’d certainly welcome an Arclord Archetype with more meat on its bones than that singular Skill Feat. Fingers crossed!

[Ly'ualdre]

Hadn't considered that. A bit unfortunate, but we'll enough I suppose. Third eyes need not be exclusive to the occult.