I just can't help but feel like an archetype would just kinda suck. Archetypes are never good at shaping your whole character direction. It's impossible to fit all the stuff people want into anything as small as an archetype.
Just to clarify, I did meant Class Archetypes. They are more impactful than others. As such, they would be, in my vision at least, more specific to Clerics and Investigators. Depending on the implementation, it could change either class dramatically. Clerics with better combat and interrogation skills and Investigators with access to divine-related abilities (Detect Alignment, for example).
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I do like Avenger as a class title, as it presents the class as righting wrongs done against the faithful. And being Pharasma's Avenger has a great ring to it or Calistria's Avenger feels good.
In world some might still refer to more zealous and vengers as inquisitors particularly of more intolerant faiths such as Asmodeus or Norgorber.
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I do like Avenger as a class title, as it presents the class as righting wrongs done against the faithful. And being Pharasma's Avenger has a great ring to it or Calistria's Avenger feels good.
In world some might still refer to more zealous Avengers as inquisitors particularly of more intolerant faiths such as Asmodeus or Norgorber.
All the 4e love in my heart does give me some fondness for an Avenger, but I think of all the options currently on the field, Arbiter is my #1, and Intercessor is my #2.
Assuming it has to be renamed, of course.
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Intercessor has the same problem where they are not out there searching for the bad things, just praying for help. Intercessor is literally just a cleric doing cleric things.
This is false. Intercessor is simply one who intercedes. It could be a priest interceding with their deity on behalf of the faithful... but it can also be one who intercedes in any of a variety of situations (perhaps via violence) on behalf of the deity.
Arbiter is better, but that name implies that the class is about judging and setting trends. When the goal of the class is to fight against things that go against the faith, not setting it.
To me it is much more about passing judgement than setting trends... and, in this case, about carrying out that judgement once the judgement has been passed.
I really see no reason why Inquisitor can't be called Inquisitor. Are we going to stop calling Barbarian Barbarian next? Because that class has a much worst history with that name (and Beserker would be more fitting).
...because by the same interpretations, the thing that "Inquisitor" does is extract information from individuals, often via coercion or torture. There are many gods for whom that simply does not fit. In contrast, just about any deity might find value in a having group of followers to vigorously intercede for them and/or pass judgement (and then carry it out) on their behalf.
Mind you, I agree with you about "Avenger". Avengers were cool in 4th ed and all, but it's not great as an actual name.
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If we're talking names, Arbiter seems a little off to me because it has a very lawful coding in what it suggests, imo.
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Are we going to stop calling Barbarian Barbarian next? Because that class has a much worst history with that name (and Beserker would be more fitting).
I’d be first in line for this change, which is so reasonable it undercuts your point a fair bit.
Are we going to stop calling Barbarian Barbarian next? Because that class has a much worst history with that name (and Beserker would be more fitting).I’d be first in line for this change, which is so reasonable it undercuts your point a fair bit.
It's true. I would also support this change in general. The only thing that holds back from this is that the "Barbarian" is, at this point, very recognizable as a name. "Barbarian as a savage warrior empowered by rage" has been pretty much iconic in all editions of D&D since 3rd... and my impression is that Pathfinder doesn't tend to get people in the door unless they come in through D&D first. I think berserker is a better name, but there are, at least, pragmatic concerns to consider.
For inquisitor... that's not really the case, so much. The only iconic inquisitor they'd have to deal with would be the one in PF1, and, honestly, the migration from PF1 to PF2 has already occurred. Whether or not they choose to keep the "inquisitor" name isn't really going to have much of an impact there.
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Much as the name phylactery was changed to Soul Cage, just because it doesn't offend you personally doesn't mean it isn't an offensive term with a loaded history.
Put simply, there is no such thing as a "good" inquisition historically.
I like Avenger because its about avenging the faithful. It doesn't assume Law, but an Avenger can pass judgement or discern guilt, or hunt monsters that pray upon the faithful.
I didn't even know 4th Edition had an Avenger class but its cool that it does.
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but they dont "avenge" the faithful, they are spies and assassins and sabatiours, who cut away problems for their deity. you have to remember that in golarion religion is not a communal cultural thing, many households have worshipers of all different gods let alone towns, it is a relationship of respect and duty between the worshiper and the god. it is not faith at all, it is obediance
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If Paladins could turn into Champions without the world ending, I don’t see why Barbarians couldn’t become Berserkers with minimal fuss.
Here’s hoping they get around to it in 3e.
If we're talking names, Arbiter seems a little off to me because it has a very lawful coding in what it suggests, imo.
Does it?
a person who settles a dispute or has ultimate authority in a matter.
1) a person empowered to decide matters at issue; judge; umpire.
2) a person who has the sole or absolute power of judging or determining.
1: a person with power to decide a dispute.
2: a person or agency whose judgment or opinion is considered authoritative.
It feels fitting to me for a class whose signature ability was literally called "Judgment," which is a concept that exists well outside of law - an Arbiter of Desna is passing judgment when she kills a Nidalese torturer, but she's definitely not following any law other than her vision of justice.
It doesn't hurt that the Arbiter, of Halo fame, was literally a flexible holy warrior sent on secret missions.
So, not to speculate too much, as this doesn’t mesn anything but I have a friend who has Kingmaker for 2e and they let me peruse the Companion guide. Was surprised to see that Jaethal is now a Champion rather than an Inquisitor, while Kanera and her sister remain Kineticists without the rules.
Curious to why they changed her to a Champion since she didn’t have a Statblock.
Maybe Paizo eventually moves away from the name Inquisitor (or the class altogether)…
Creative Director
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At the time we were wrapping up work on Kingmaker, I knew that the kineticist was going to be a 2E class so I was comfortable suggesting those tiefling twins should be built as kineticists—the original development of that section instead suggested building them as fire and water sorcerers, respectively.
Since there was no plan at the time to do an inquisitor, I didn't feel comfortable suggesting to GMs to build Jaethal as an inquisitor since those rules may well never exist from Paizo for 2nd edition Pathifnder. Nor was I comfortable setting false expectations that we'd do an inquisitor. So I chose to present her as a champion instead, which to me felt like the closest thematic choice for her character.
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[...]since those rules may well never exist from Paizo for 2nd edition Pathfinder.
I know there's probably not much you can say here, but would we have any way of knowing if Paizo had decided against ever making a 2e Inquisitor? From the outside looking in, it's hard to tell if the situation is "other class ideas have come up first" or "we think the class is too fraught to rehabilitate," and I don't want to keep hoping and being let down if it's the latter.
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Creative Director
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[...]since those rules may well never exist from Paizo for 2nd edition Pathfinder.I know there's probably not much you can say here, but would we have any way of knowing if Paizo had decided against ever making a 2e Inquisitor? From the outside looking in, it's hard to tell if the situation is "other class ideas have come up first" or "we think the class is too fraught to rehabilitate," and I don't want to keep hoping and being let down if it's the latter.
You're right... there's not much I can say here. :-(
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You're right... there's not much I can say here. :-([...]since those rules may well never exist from Paizo for 2nd edition Pathfinder.I know there's probably not much you can say here, but would we have any way of knowing if Paizo had decided against ever making a 2e Inquisitor? From the outside looking in, it's hard to tell if the situation is "other class ideas have come up first" or "we think the class is too fraught to rehabilitate," and I don't want to keep hoping and being let down if it's the latter.
I understand. Here's hoping, at least.
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Keep up hope! Kineticist was originally a class who's very existence was in question in 2e's early lifecycle, but now it's here. I don't think the good folk at Paizo have the heart to keep Imrijka from rejoining her friends on 2e adventures for long!
Does it?
a person who settles a dispute or has ultimate authority in a matter.1) a person empowered to decide matters at issue; judge; umpire.
2) a person who has the sole or absolute power of judging or determining.1: a person with power to decide a dispute.
2: a person or agency whose judgment or opinion is considered authoritative.It feels fitting to me for a class whose signature ability was literally called "Judgment," which is a concept that exists well outside of law - an Arbiter of Desna is passing judgment when she kills a Nidalese torturer, but she's definitely not following any law other than her vision of justice.
It doesn't hurt that the Arbiter, of Halo fame, was literally a flexible holy warrior sent on secret missions.
Arbiter has definitely been one of my favorite names for the class, although that's also the name of a monster from Bestiary. I'm not sure if that's a problem, or not, but that's my only concern here. Otherwise, I really like Justicar/Justiciar. It's a name that sounds different on the tongue than any other class (we've already got two "In-" classes), and it's already a pretty embedded term in fantasy pop culture (Warhammer 40k, World of Warcraft, Mass Effect, Vampire: The Masquerade, etc) that will immediately evoke a good impression of what the class does, from the name alone. Which is a tricky thing to do when substituting for the word Inquisitor.
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I will keep hoping.
The Inquisitor/Arbiter/Confessor/Avenger is probably the most requested class now that the Kineticist is being made.
The design space is there. We just need an opportunity to present itself (:
but they dont "avenge" the faithful, they are spies and assassins and sabatiours, who cut away problems for their deity. you have to remember that in golarion religion is not a communal cultural thing, many households have worshipers of all different gods let alone towns, it is a relationship of respect and duty between the worshiper and the god. it is not faith at all, it is obediance [/QUOTE
And this kind of description brings me back to making it an archetype, not a class.
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Speaking for names, Arbiter is a favourite name of mine for a Lawful Champion. I am somewhat partial to the concept of the Avenger in 4e being replicated for our purposes, and have no strong objections to the name, though I recognise it is a bit inaccurate.
To this I would humbly like to submit ideas with a more 'spy/operative' vibe to them. For your consideration I offer Agent (as in, agent of your god, divine agent), as well as Emissary (carries connotations of skill with diplomacy but also being empowered to represent your god from afar). Envoy and Operative are both Starfinder classes, but I'm partial to the vibe of being a divine envoy with the power to eliminate foes.
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I’m still pretty fond of the Inquisitor name, but increasingly swayed by the arguments to change it - if nothing else, than because I’m tired of bad faith arguments about its identity. Worst case scenario, somehow attach it to Evil members of the class.
Arbiter is my personal favorite right now, because it carries a feeling of judgment - ideal for an offense-focused divine class. It sounds good with potential subclasses, too; Ketephys might foster Arbiters of the Hunt, while Norgorber could employ Arbiters of Shadows or Secrets. As stated above, the Halo pop culture connotation feels surprisingly fitting, and might provide a touchstone for people coming to the class cold.
I quite like Intercessor, both because you are literally the vessel by which your god intercedes in the world and because the word is still mostly shaped like “Inquisitor.” Executor makes me laugh, because you execute the will of your deity, but it also makes everyone think of an Executioner, and that has a merit of its own. I could live with Justicar, but that’s the one that actually feels too inherently Lawful to my ears.
I’ve previously seen both Envoy and Herald advanced as names for a non-magical support class, likely covering everything from a charming social “face” to a 4e-style Warlord, and I like those names more for that than an Inquisitor.
I really see no reason why Inquisitor can't be called Inquisitor. Are we going to stop calling Barbarian Barbarian next? Because that class has a much worst history with that name (and Beserker would be more fitting).
Agree re: Inquisitor. I tend to think of Barbarians as "Hradani" (see David Weber's The War God's Own et. al.)
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Hm. Would a 2E "Inquisitor" class be a candidate for the same treatment Champion got? That is, nine different subclasses (or six anyway) each with a different alignment and a different name.
Which brings up another question: could the lack of neutral (vis-à-vis Good vs. Evil) Champions so far be down to simply a difficulty in finding three good names for them? :-)
Hm. Would a 2E "Inquisitor" class be a candidate for the same treatment Champion got? That is, nine different subclasses (or six anyway) each with a different alignment and a different name.
Gods, I hope not. The Champion’s Alignment straightjacketing is among my least favorite things in 2e - one class is enough.
Intercessor is the name of a person who prays for someone, not the name for the person who decided to infiltrate a cult to take it down from within.
Arbiter is the name of a judge or trend setter, not the name of the secret service.
“Oracle” means someone who divines the future, something most Oracles can’t do. “Thaumaturge” means a magic-worker, yet the Thaumaturge isn’t a spellcaster. The “Monk” has no religious vows. There’s plenty more valid targets for this complaint already in the game. Plenty of “Barbarians” are ‘civilized,’ intelligent, and well-spoken. Obviously classes can have an identity beyond their literal definition.
An Intercessor is one who intercedes on the behalf of others - whether acting in service to a divinity, or answering prayers themselves, like a saint does. An Arbiter, as mentioned, could pass their judgments out in the field; I don’t think the trend-setter definition has any bearing on this conversation.
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I could see Justiciar as the LN Champion, sworn to unflinching Law above all other principles. This is the place for Hellknights of the Godclaw, but also Abadar’s greatest commanders and Iroran masters of armored combat. Failing that, Judge is a classic, and seems just as valid as “Tyrant.”
CN could’ve been Firebrand before the Lost Omens side scooped it up, so I advance Hellion as my preferred candidate. They’re champions of change above all else, discontent with order - heroes sworn to Lubaiko’s revolutions, Besmara’s piracy, or the selfish whims of the fey Eldest.
Rather than Champions of Neutrality, I would suggest non-Aligned Causes, paired with the Alignment half of your choice. I don’t have snappy names for these, but your Vigil Champions slay undead for Anubis or Pharasma, while your Arcane Lore Champions seek the unknown for Nethys and Abraxas.
But this Champion talk probably deserves it’s own thread.
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CN could’ve been Firebrand before the Lost Omens side scooped it up, so I advance Hellion as my preferred candidate. They’re champions of change above all else, discontent with order - heroes sworn to Lubaiko’s revolutions, Besmara’s piracy, or the selfish whims of the fey Eldest.Agreed on the separate tread but before that I want to point out something very important about "Hellion".
In pathfinder, "Hellion" is the name of the Chaotic Evil AI God of Rust. So yeah, don't use the name of an evil god for the name of a "chaotic neutral" cause. It also doesn't help that it has the word "Hell" in it and is synonym for devil, which doesn't help it.
I mean, AI Hellion is dead, and unlikely to be known outside Numeria. It’s just a word. Plenty of things talk about unity without being mistaken for that dead Iron God.
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Of the origin of the word "hellion" my dictionary says "mid 19th century: perhaps from dialect hallion ‘a worthless fellow’, changed by association with hell." So the fact that "hellion" "has the word hell in it" is actually not really relevant. As for the god of rust, I agree with keftiu.
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The point of the Barbarian example is that just because people may not like the name "barbarian" doesn't mean the class won't be name and is not better represented by the name "barbarian". Berserker works for the current version but stops working as soon as you go beyond it.
"Berserker" isn't really going to work for any class without a rage mechanic, but by my read, that's baked in pretty hard at this point. What kind of "go beyond" are you imagining that would make it no longer work?
At the same time, this particular sub-argument isn't going to be pertinent for something like another half a decade or more, so it's not exactly urgent.
Intercessor is the name of a person who prays for someone, not the name for the person who decided to infiltrate a cult to take it down from within.
Intercessor: "a person who intervenes on behalf of another, especially by prayer." There are many ways that one can intervene in various situations. It is not just "prays for someone". You can totally intervene in the activities of a cult via judicious application of sharp objects.
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What IS Justicar anyway? *googles*
"Do not confuse with the term justiciar. While a justiciar was an actual historic role, justicars exist only in fiction of the sword-and-sorcery and science fiction genres. (There are occasional misspellings of the term justiciar as justicar.)"
...Okay what is justiciar then?
"justiciar (plural justiciars)
(historical) One who administers justice, particularly:
(historical) A high-ranking judicial officer of medieval England or Scotland.
(historical) A justice: a high-ranking judge.
(historical) A Chief Justiciar: the highest political and judicial officer of the Kingdom of England in the 12th and 13th centuries.
(historical) Various equivalent medieval offices elsewhere in Europe.
(Christian, theology, rare) A justiciary: a believer in the doctrine (or heresy) that adherence to religious law redeems mankind before God."
Huh, makes sense
When I hear 'Avenger' all I can think of is Edmond Dantes, who does in fact see himself acting in God's will by royally screwing the people who screwed him in the first place. Plus, the root words "ad" -> "with regard to"; "venge" -> "vindicate" -> "to proclaim with authority/proof" line up nicely with what an Inquisitor does: show off/expose and deal with heresy within their church. Count me +1'd for Avenger
Personally, I'm all for keeping it, Inquisitor. I just really like the name. Additionally, we've already had them named in 2E. If the name did change, I'd be disappointed, but I'd have the class I want so still a win.
I have to admit I'm not totally clear on the motivation for the change. I think I've seen some people say because it's not an accurate descriptor and others that the name is problematic. Is that a fair assessment? I'd love a further explanation if anyone is willing to provide it.
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Personally, I'm all for keeping it, Inquisitor. I just really like the name. Additionally, we've already had them named in 2E. If the name did change, I'd be disappointed, but I'd have the class I want so still a win.
I have to admit I'm not totally clear on the motivation for the change. I think I've seen some people say because it's not an accurate descriptor and others that the name is problematic. Is that a fair assessment? I'd love a further explanation if anyone is willing to provide it.
It's both.
- The inquisition was an actual organization, part of the Catholic Church, that (among other things) involved itself in a variety of atrocities, mostly involving torture, as part of an effort to (among other things) oppress people into either becoming or remaining Catholic and/or ferret out those who were secretly not-Catholic. Every other time we see the words "Inquisitor" or "Inquisition", it's pretty much a call-back to that. So... there's a lot of people who think that we shouldn't be using that as our label for a player-character class, especially given that a decent number of them are likely to be some flavor of heroic. Those who are feeling especially non-catholic/christian and also perhaps moderately oppressed for their religious faith would be particularly inclined to feel this way.
- As noted, the inquisition was a very particular thing, and the thing it was... doesn't exist in Golarion in nearly the same way. Like, you might see equivalents in Nidal or Razmiran, or perhaps a more moderate atheist equivalent in Rahadoum, but most places in Golarion are rather more welcoming of multiple faiths than "inquisitor" would suggest.
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It also just too narrow an identity for a class, IMO. It is like why ranger or rogue is a class while Reclaimer or Assassin are archetypes.
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It also just too narrow an identity for a class, IMO. It is like why ranger or rogue is a class while Reclaimer or Assassin are archetypes.
And druids and clerics and swashbucklers...
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It also just too narrow an identity for a class, IMO. It is like why ranger or rogue is a class while Reclaimer or Assassin are archetypes.And druids and clerics and swashbucklers...
Druids really should've just been nature Clerics, but D&D gave them something of an identity beyond that. You can make an argument for just about any class being some permutation or mixing of Fighter, Thief, Wizard, and Priest, at the end of the day. Why do we have Champions when you can be a Fighter with Blessed One? Why do we have Investigators when you can just be a smart Rogue? Because it's fun.
Thankfully, Pathfinder is a game about options, and I don't really understand arguing against more class choices, especially ones that would have their own niche (i.e. an offense-driven divine class).
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Thankfully, Pathfinder is a game about options, and I don't really understand arguing against more class choices, especially ones that would have their own niche (i.e. an offense-driven divine class).
Because the developers for Pathfinder don't think like that. Mechanical niche seems to be of secondary, perhaps as far as quaternary, concern when they are designing a new class. "What stories need a new class to tell properly?" seems to be their primary concern.
If you want a reason for why the inquisitor has been on the backburner, that is almost certainly the answer: the lack of a new narrative niche that isn't already handily filled by an existing class. Including specifically an offensive divine character with an ability that works quite a bit like Spellstrike (Channel Smite).
I'm 100% in favor of new classes for new options sake, frankly I don't mind overlap on a narrative front, but Captain Morgan has a pretty strong point as well.
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To be fair, I'm pretty sure "deity-empowered secret agent" is the narrative niche which is well and clearly missing from the game which forms the whole foundation for keftiu's desire for the Inquisitor. The desire for an offensive divine class is the other part of it, certainly, but it's not as though this thread is only here to paint in a mechanical niche. There is a clear narrative niche (imho and I think the opinion of a several others), too, or at least not really less than 'druids narratively could just be clerics of nature'.
The narrative angle sometimes gets downplayed a lot when people drop in trying to argue that there is no narrative niche for a class that polices their religion, but then that's mainly because there's also no opposing argument in favour of this specific inquisitor identity compared to the divine secret agent eliminating enemies of their deity through skill and cunning.
To be fair, I'm pretty sure "deity-empowered secret agent" is the narrative niche which is well and clearly missing from the game which forms the whole foundation for keftiu's desire for the Inquisitor. The desire for an offensive divine class is the other part of it, certainly, but it's not as though this thread is only here to paint in a mechanical niche. There is a clear narrative niche (imho and I think the opinion of a several others), too, or at least not really less than 'druids narratively could just be clerics of nature'.
Not really. "Secret agent" is filled by multiple classes and archetypes already, "divine empowered" is a pretty easy toggle. A Magical Eldritch Trickster rogue with the cleric multiclass as their free feat would be exactly that, wouldn't it? An archetype like vigilante but specifically tied to a deity and their edicts would empower multiple classes to play in that pool, and it would be a heck of a lot shorter than a full class. Could even use the PF1 name for that and call them Zealots.
It could be done with a full class, but so could literally anything. I'd like to see other ideas kicked around, ones that would be more difficult to tell.
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Magical trickster rogue with divine lance seems like a pretty terrible way to play anything, tbh.
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Apologies, I meant Eldritch Trickster, not Magical Trickster.
Though I'd really like to see some more spell attack rolls added to divine list, that's a different problem.