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You might enjoy my prior thread with an almost identical title: https://paizo.com/threads/rzs43e4n?What-do-want-from-the-2e-Inquisitor
I want the class more than any other mechanical option. I don’t need it to be married to 1e mechanics; rather, I want a robust mechanical skeleton for a divine character who isn’t a Champion and isn’t a full caster. My current hope is for a “wave caster” (Magus, Summoner) with some combat chops and a lot of skill-focused tools - a play experience somewhat similar to Ranger and Investigator, but with that holy edge.
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I would like them not to be action starved to do their schtick.
The summoner and magus are both very locked in play styles. The magus spell strikes and the eidolon attacks with boost. You can do some other things here and there, but those modes are mostly what they do.
The Inquisitor had a more wide open play style once you activated their judgment.
I'd like the inquisitor to be a focused divine damage class. A divine hammer that you play when you want to bring the pain.
Cleric a healer.
Champion a defender type.
Inquisitor divine damage hammer.
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I would love to see inquisitor as a damage-dealing cleric doctrine.
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I think a holy ranger is closest to what I want (they hunt enemies of the faith (fiends, undead, heretics, whatever) and focus on rooting them out from their hiding places. Keep the judgement mechanic in some form, and have subclasses or feats that focus on different themes (a hunter one focused on defeating certain creature types like fiends and undead, one focused on going after cults and secret societies with a more investigator ish feel, one that goes after enemy spellcasters, etc.)
Basically I want Witch Huntery kind of vibes, with a bit of holy magic (probably focus spells and adding alignment damage to attacks). The 1e Investigator and 5e Blood Hunter have some mechanics I really like for this.
Obviously like the ranger they would be able to use both ranged and melee weapons effectively. Some kind of feat support for a crossbow build would be amazing.
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Oh, another note: /please/ don't tie them to Alignment the way Champions are. I want my choice of god to matter, not that.
I would love to see inquisitor as a damage-dealing cleric doctrine.
I want to see judgment in Pathfinder 2. No attachment to cleric. I think they can build a very cool judgment ability.
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I want a new mechanic approach (I was blown out of the water by the Thaumaturge). The Bane/judgement route would be fine in terms of terminology, but I don't want them to try to replicate 1e mechanics.
Also, I want a name chance, but that is just me.
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Honestly I just want a class archetype for the thaumaturge. Give them only 1 implement, chosen according to their deity, and then wave casting to make up for the other two implements, and I’d be fairly satisfied.
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- Wave casting.
- Allow them to combine casting and striding as a unique ability. This gives them a unique niche in being a very mobile caster, and it can be used to Move+Buff, Move+Debuff, Move+Heal, to give them a feel as the caster who is on the move.
- Judgement would be a reaction you can choose daily – one offensive (retributive strike when hit), one defensive (grant bonus to saves and AC), and one for mobility (allows to Stride given certain conditions). You can spend actions to switch between these reactions. Eventually you get the ability to have two of them up.
- Subclasses divide between: subterfuge, tracking, social, sabotage, etc.
- Bane was actually a very bad mechanic in 1E - gave a ton of damage but it was nothing more than a damage boost.
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I'd like a different name. The Inquisition ranks among the most evil organizations in human history. Using the name for non-evil characters is disrespectful to the memory of their countless victims.
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I really liked the title "Expositor" from Critical Role.
Agreed on my main thing being a new name. I've never really been a fan of inquisitor since the class is essentially just a description of a personality with a bunch of self buffs in 1e, and I know any 2e version will be mechanically different enough that my dislike of 1e's won't matter.
But please god, a better name. Judge sounds fun. Intercessor sounds nice but I'm not sure of the context.
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Go with Seneschal, a term used in so many different ways it could mean anything really.
"Seneschal of Pharasma", "Seneschal of Norgorber", "Seneschal of Ng", all sound pretty badass.
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Go with Seneschal, a term used in so many different ways it could mean anything really.
"Seneschal of Pharasma", "Seneschal of Norgorber", "Seneschal of Ng", all sound pretty badass.
Except seneschals are tied to households, not faiths. You'd by saying your PC oversees Pharasma's domestic affairs. LOL.
It's more a master butler than an advocate of divinity.--
Separately; I have to wonder whether there are any words re: religious zeal that aren't loaded with distasteful connotations (even if only to those from opposing religions) or which suggest an alignment (so wouldn't be applicable to all deities).
ETA: I suppose there might be neutral terms which lack oomph, much like the word Cleric had little to no flavor, accumulating much of its RPG meaning over many decades.
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Go with Seneschal, a term used in so many different ways it could mean anything really.
"Seneschal of Pharasma", "Seneschal of Norgorber", "Seneschal of Ng", all sound pretty badass.
Except seneschals are tied to households, not faiths. You'd by saying your PC oversees Pharasma's domestic affairs. LOL.
It's more a master butler than an advocate of divinity.
Yes but also no? In England they were also church officials. I like the idea of a "hand of the deities", kind of like a royal butler as you mention.
For Norgorber? This guy comes in and cleans up everyone spilling secrets.
For Pharasma? Makes sure rites are being followed.
For Gorum? Ensures they are properly armed and constantly ready for battle.
For Cayden? Tops them up.
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So the biggest issue when it comes to something like Inquisitor and the names we can associate with the fluff of the base class is that any real world inspired name will have problrematic undertones. That is because the Inquisitor of pf1e has three main aspects to its fluff, Active agent who seeks out enemies of the faith, divine monster hunter, and someone who seeks out heretics or those within the faith who causes harm.
These ideas when looked at through a real world lense tend to lead to well persecuting people of different faiths or lack of faith, or those who don't pass some form of purity test.
Now is a world of actual monsters, actual evil faiths that do actively seek harm and the such a role like this can exist and somewhat makes sense but can still have dangerous undertones and consequences( i.e stuff that went down in mendev). But the name still brings forth real world issues.
I'm not sure what the name should be for an offensive potentially skill based divine warrior but that's what I kind of want to see the Inquisitor or its pf2e counterpart to be.
Flavorwise they can be be divine troubleshooter, agents, or spies. Someone who uses various skills to either do solo work, or work especially well in places where there faiths are not wanted.
Freedom based inquisitors would be perfect agents in cheliax for example, or saeanrae inquiistors would be useful in Taldor pre- then opening up to the faith.
Alternatively I want to see a very offensive divine based character something to fill the shoes of more offensive paladins in 1e. I love the champion I love what it's done for tabletop games because good and interesting defensive based classes are rare ro comedy when everyone is seeking the next big damage booster, but I do miss some of the holy smite energy of paladins of the olden days.
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Go with Seneschal, a term used in so many different ways it could mean anything really.
"Seneschal of Pharasma", "Seneschal of Norgorber", "Seneschal of Ng", all sound pretty badass.
Except seneschals are tied to households, not faiths. You'd by saying your PC oversees Pharasma's domestic affairs. LOL.
It's more a master butler than an advocate of divinity.
Sure, why not?
The way I see it, Champions and Clerics take their marching orders straight from their deities. Seneschals are tied more intimately to the church itself. So a title that reflects that feels appropriate.
Edit: although Advocate might also work.
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I almost want to suggest Agent
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Agent could work but I could also see someone hear that name and expect a more emundane spy like class and not something divine based. That being said that can happen and has happened with other class names in the past and as long as the supporting fluff text defines what it is I feel like it would be fine.
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Go with Seneschal, a term used in so many different ways it could mean anything really.
"Seneschal of Pharasma", "Seneschal of Norgorber", "Seneschal of Ng", all sound pretty badass.
Except seneschals are tied to households, not faiths. You'd by saying your PC oversees Pharasma's domestic affairs. LOL.
It's more a master butler than an advocate of divinity.Sure, why not?
The way I see it, Champions and Clerics take their marching orders straight from their deities. Seneschals are tied more intimately to the church itself. So a title that reflects that feels appropriate.
Edit: although Advocate might also work.
Why not?
Because a seneschal (if tied to a religion rather than a noble estate) would relate to the church buildings, grounds, and ceremonies more than the church's interests. Outside of anime (and Alfred of course), glorified butlers go on few world-spanning journeys. It'd be a position one retires to, not aspires to with dreams to adventure or use one's martial prowess for one's deity/cause. (Not that an individual PC caretaker concept like this wouldn't be great, "seneschal" just doesn't suit the whole class & concept we're addressing.)I think Advocate works, as it's sufficiently neutral, yet conveys that the members of the class are taking action on behalf of another, which is exactly what the concept entails. It's not flashy, yet neither is Cleric (nor Fighter or several other classes for that matter). And IMO it leaves room for the many tangents one can take with the class (if it resembles it's PF1 incarnation).
Advocate of "X" sounds pretty cool to me, as does "X's" Advocate.
Though in that vein I wouldn't want necessarily to limit that to a deity. Advocate of Chaos or maybe of Domains would be cool too, i.e. Advocate of Freedom. Being able to choose a Domain or Alignment instead of deity (which would remain an option) would improve the class IMO. Perhaps those could be different Doctrines of Advocate.
Agent could work but I could also see someone hear that name and expect a more emundane spy like class and not something divine based. That being said that can happen and has happened with other class names in the past and as long as the supporting fluff text defines what it is I feel like it would be fine.
I agree that it'd mislead, though if the class's portfolio were expanded it might work. So there might be traditional divine "Agents", yet also others with different loyalties, perhaps with different magic traditions too. Imagine an Occult Agent, working against Lovecraftian forces, or Arcane Agent hunting down evil Wizards, or a Primal Agent...which I suppose might be too close to a Ranger, yet with Wave Casting (and different mechanics) might be distinct enough.
Still unsure though, since "agent" is such a common word tied to a regular vocation. I'd still enjoy that expanded portfolio though!
The Inquisitor in PF was built like religious law enforcement.
I'd be ok with Judge, Arbiter, Warden, Justice, something along those lines.
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Exorcist? Sanctifier? Purifier? Seeker?
I feel like part of the feel here isn't just damage-dealing. It's precision. They're not for the jobs where you send in armies. They're not for the jobs where large-scale smiting is called for. They're for the jobs where the terrible violence needs to be applied to exactly the right place - more surgeon than butcher.
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Are we even certain that, at this point, it is even really appropriate to be putting a class or tools into the hands of players that encourage them to wage religious crusades to slay/oppose/infiltrate any culture or group whose ideals don't align with their own?
This very neatly dances on the line between violent zealotry and what we refer to in modern-day parlance as religious extremism and in some cases just outright terrorism.
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Interrogator Chaplain? 40k jokes aside, envoy is probably the least offensive way to name a representative of the church. It won't be the starfinder class, but bard covers a lot of the envoy niche already so I see that name as being wide open for pathfinder.
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Are we even certain that, at this point, it is even really appropriate to be putting a class or tools into the hands of players that encourage them to wage religious crusades to slay/oppose/infiltrate any culture or group whose ideals don't align with their own?
This very neatly dances on the line between violent zealotry and what we refer to in modern-day parlance as religious extremism and in some cases just outright terrorism.
Well, we already have Thief Rogues, so...
I mean, in a world where a significant part of the party economy is based around killing people and taking their stuff....
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Are we even certain that, at this point, it is even really appropriate to be putting a class or tools into the hands of players that encourage them to wage religious crusades to slay/oppose/infiltrate any culture or group whose ideals don't align with their own?
This very neatly dances on the line between violent zealotry and what we refer to in modern-day parlance as religious extremism and in some cases just outright terrorism.
Pathfinder is, mechanically, a game about killing things. I think the ship sailed when they included divine options at all; I don’t know that an Inquisitor (renamed or otherwise) is anywhere less fraught than the two types of “holy warrior” in the core book.
Plus, other kinds of assassins are already playable, including religious ones. Are you opposed to the fact that we can be a Red Mantis, who’ve been in 2e for years already?
Are we even certain that, at this point, it is even really appropriate to be putting a class or tools into the hands of players that encourage them to wage religious crusades to slay/oppose/infiltrate any culture or group whose ideals don't align with their own?
This very neatly dances on the line between violent zealotry and what we refer to in modern-day parlance as religious extremism and in some cases just outright terrorism.
Pathfinder is, mechanically, a game about killing things. I think the ship sailed when they included divine options at all; I don’t know that an Inquisitor (renamed or otherwise) is anywhere less fraught than the two types of “holy warrior” in the core book.
Plus, other kinds of assassins are already playable, including religious ones. Are you opposed to the fact that we can be a Red Mantis, who’ve been in 2e for years already?
Considering the possible backlash I don't envision inquisitor showing up without a name change. I could be wrong but if it can't be rebranded I could easily see Paizo not bothering to include it. That's not a slight on Paizo either, it would just be the company avoiding more PR issues.
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I might also suggest Executor - "someone who is responsible for executing, or following through on, an assigned task or duty". Gets bonus points for being close to "executioner" without actually going there.
As for what I'd like to see of them? Well, I know that there are people out there who really want to play one. I'm not one of those. So the first thing I'd want is that whatever it be, it be something that makes those people happy. Beyond that, though?
I see the build as a hunter, of sorts. They ought to have something that makes them particularly good at tracking down a target. Bare minimum, they ought to have one of the better Perception proficiencies.
Past that, I see them (or at some of them) as being the type that focuses way in on a single target and just keeps grinding away at them. Lots of piling debuffs on debuffs, plus some sort of Divine Wrath execution with big, chunky damage once they've piled enough up.
Possibly a class feat... "Bloody-minded focus": Reaction: Some foe that is not your target attacks you -> you attack your target. Possibly some sort of class resource that accumulates as you attack your target, diminishes when anyone else attacks your target (?) and can be spent to crank up your attacks against that target in various ways, punish them for trying to escape, and so forth.
I don't know how practical it would be, or how to tweak it to find the fun, but the basic idea would be that you pick a target, and you just carve that target into the ground, where the only escape is through you, but every time you hit them their ability to fight free diminishes.
...and yeah, definitely wave caster. It's a little weird, actually. They *should* be a wave caster, and it should clearly be Divine, but the spells that you get out of a divine wave caster... don't feel quite right?
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Interrogator Chaplain? 40k jokes aside, envoy is probably the least offensive way to name a representative of the church. It won't be the starfinder class, but bard covers a lot of the envoy niche already so I see that name as being wide open for pathfinder.
40K jokes?
I only see one joke, and it references an RPG system whose name is escaping me for some reason. Hmm, maybe if I keep hammering at it.| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Inquisitor is probably fine given how historically removed the inquisitions are from any living person's actual experience, might as well axe the viking archetype, although I'll admit Intercessor is a really fun name just because it feels like a euphemism.
"Its my job to... intercede, wherever Pharasma deems it necessary"
Makes them sound like cleaners and it has such a brutal ring to it, try saying it with an evil british accent.
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Inquisitor is probably fine given how historically removed the inquisitions are from any living person's actual experience, might as well axe the viking archetype, although I'll admit Intercessor is a really fun name just because it feels like a euphemism.
"Its my job to... intercede, wherever Pharasma deems it necessary"
Makes them sound like cleaners and it has such a brutal ring to it, try saying it with an evil british accent.
We've also seen inquisitors in 2e books already. Personally I really like the name more than any of the others suggested here.
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Confessor is a descriptive name for one who would seek to gain confessions from the faithless, it also fits the historical role without specifically calling out the class as an Inquisitor.
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i think the pychic's 1 spell per level plus boosted focus spells is going to be a better fit for the inquisitor. A focus spell that functionally gives the class boosted proficiency/accuracy against a hunted target feels about right.
Edit: Maybe instead of boosting accuracy, it just does an X amount of alignment based damage, even on a miss, and can be used with rapid attack weapons like bows and dual weapons.
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Inquisitor is probably fine given how historically removed the inquisitions are from any living person's actual experience, might as well axe the viking archetype, although I'll admit Intercessor is a really fun name just because it feels like a euphemism.
"Its my job to... intercede, wherever Pharasma deems it necessary"
Makes them sound like cleaners and it has such a brutal ring to it, try saying it with an evil british accent.
I don't care one way or the other. Inquisitor is a cool sounding word. I can see it existing in a fantasy world for all the alignments as protecting the integrity of the faith is important to religions. And the overzealous Inquisitor is a classic villain you can use in so many ways in a story from boring extreme evil to grey "I'm doing my job" evil. You can even make them good ferreting out corruption in the faith. It depends on how you want to use them.
But Paizo gonna do what Paizo gonna do when it comes to subjects like this at the moment.
I’m alright with Inquisitor, but see the argument with changing it - and given that Occultist and Paladin both got rebranded, I see it as somewhat likely. Of the suggestions ITT and elsewhere, I’m most content with Avenger, Purifier, and Intercessor; all are fun and flavorful.
There’s Inquisitors for… five or six different gods that I’m dying to get to the table in 2e? Arazni, Casandalee, Kalekot, Kazuta, Luhar, and Nocticula all call my name. I hope we aren’t waiting too much longer.
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I'm not going to pretend that everyone should or does feel the same way as me, and at the end of the day I am sure that it will be approached in as respectful a manner as possible, I just want to note that religious persecution, punishment, aggressive proselytizing, and general locus of political power and influence of a given church or religious body is not at ALL an uncommon trigger for many Americans.
I just, I don't know, I am having a very hard time parsing where the line is anymore, maybe that is a bit of personal privilege and bias taking hold but I wanted to just, I don't know, give voice to the concern given that a very concerted effort is being made by staff to TRY their best to be more respectful on a whole variety of subjects of late including religious ones in the case of the shift toward using the term soul cage.
That said, knowing Paizo they're probably already two steps ahead of me on this despite the apparent lack of discussion on the sensitivity of the topic.
They should be able to weaponize the Truth against their enemies.
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I like the idea of a "seeker", both as a name and as a focus. This could incorporate the monster hunter aspect of the class. Then maybe the "doctrines" would be focused on what they seek, i.e. monsters, undead, opposing faiths, mysteries and so on.
The issue with names like "seeker" is... honestly, this is a class that *should* have some edge to it. "Seeker" sounds very noncombat to me. In something like Dragon Age, you can build them up accordingly, until the name gets its own resonance there, but PF2 shouldn't be including it as a DA reference, and doesn't have the same ability to weave it into the narrative so that the resonance hits the right level at the right spots. The first time people run into it, it's going to be "oh. Here's the name of a class I can be". It needs to be something that can stand on its own.
Obviously, you can take it too far in the other direction, too - "wrathbringer" is a bit too over-the-top. Still... I think it should carry a bit of a sinister edge, at least in subtle potential.
"Devotee" occurs to me, though it also doesn't have a lot of that flavor. I admit, though, that I'm coming to rather like "Intercessor" more the more I think about it.
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Magus means wizard and has absolutely no martial connotations, you just gotta fake it til you make it.
Find a nice word, use it enough until everyone associates it with this specific thing.
It happened to "rogue" and it happened to "sorcerer/wizard".