Your vote for the actively worst feat of pathfinder?

[Mightypion]

So,

we recently had a discssion on what the worst feat in pathfinder is.
Many feats are just wasting a feat slot, which is bad, but I have found this gem which is even worse:
All consuming swing

Not only does it require you to have both cleave and vital strike, you need to have a BAB of 8 or more, and well, you can literally kill yourself with it.

Essentially, you pay the cost of reflecting your extra vital strike damage upon yourself, for making an extra normal attack on someone in cleave range. For nearly any build that makes proper use of vital strike (f.e. Orc butchering axe or gorums favored fighting style, both enlarged with impact weapons), this seems like a pretty bad idea.
2x6D6 damage on you (improved vital strike) for a 6D6+your static modifier (which is probably somewhere around 20+ish) just seems really bad, as it will come up to a roughly equal hp trade.

Can anyone come up with a worse feat here?

[Rysky]

Power Attack.

[Name Violation]

Monkey Lunge

as a standard action you gain reach until the end of your current turn...

Prone shooter got fixed ages ago, at least it does something now

[PossibleCabbage]

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah- You lose 3 HP so you can explode when you die (and thereby prevent folks from raising you in the traditional way.) You can also just choose to die as an immediate action, if you want.

[Ryze Kuja]

All the common feat taxes tbqf. Quick Draw, Power Attack, Combat Reflexes, Combat Expertise.

For Psionics: Psionic Meditation, Psicrystal Affinity.

I think these should simply be automatic feats in the classes that always get them.

I typically house rule that everyone has Quick Draw, but only if you're proficient with the weapon. Casters have the option to get their own homebrew version of Quick Draw that doesn't work on weapons, but rather works on Scrolls/Wands/MM Rods instead, but whatever you're quick drawing must be easily accessible on a belt, pouch, bandolier, or a wand quiver.

[Mudfoot]

Strike Back for being something that everyone should have been able to do anyway, and was assumed to be the case, until this feat emerged and made everyone else worse.

[Heather 540]

I agree with Monkey Lunge. It's literally useless. It had to have been a mistake and was supposed to be a move action.

[VoodistMonk]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah- You lose 3 HP so you can explode when you die (and thereby prevent folks from raising you in the traditional way.) You can also just choose to die as an immediate action, if you want.

Holy crap, though... the Mask of the Forgotten Pharoah that goes along with that little cult...

AoN wrote:
If worn by an evil character, the mask enhances the wearer’s control over undead, doubling the number of undead the wearer may control with animate dead, control undead, the Command Undead feat, and similar effects. Additionally, the wearer can cast animate dead once per day as a spell-like ability.

Ryze Kuja, have seen this freaking mask?!?! Give it to your Mystic Theurge necromancer build. Lol.

[Diego Rossi]

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah- You lose 3 HP so you can explode when you die (and thereby prevent folks from raising you in the traditional way.) You can also just choose to die as an immediate action, if you want.

Feats aren't PCs only things. That is clearly a feat meant for a member of an NPCs cult. And when used that way it is good for the GM and the storytelling.

Heather 540 wrote:

I agree with Monkey Lunge. It's literally useless. It had to have been a mistake and was supposed to be a move action.

Yes, broken. I think it should have required no action at all, like Lunge, the prerequisite.

The goal is to avoid the AC penalty when using Lunge. Needing two feats to get reach during your turn at no penalty and no action cost seems acceptable.

- * - * -

Pathfinder has plenty of feats that give low benefits when compared with the powerful stuff.
I am testing a way to give the players a small number of flavor feats besides the normal feat received from the class and the levels. The only problem is that savvy players can still find and take flavor feats that permit some powerful combo.

[Diego Rossi]

Mudfoot wrote:

Strike Back for being something that everyone should have been able to do anyway, and was assumed to be the case, until this feat emerged and made everyone else worse.

It was one of my first discussions in the rule forum. I was shocked to discover that you need a feat to do that.

[Pizza Lord]

Diego Rossi wrote:

PossibleCabbage wrote:

Troth of the Forgotten Pharoah ...

Feats aren't PCs only things. That is clearly a feat meant for a member of an NPCs cult. And when used that way it is good for the GM and the storytelling.

Absolutely meant for a cult and NPCs. But this should have been done with just a magical ritual on followers or even a magical tattoo based on its description. Making it cost a feat is absurdly debilitating and I think that hinders GMs and since that's one less feat that NPCs could have to make encounters more challenging or memorable (other than, they blow up when they die, and sometimes when they want to). Unless the GM is just going to swarm your PCs with suicide bomber fodder igniting themselves and, if that's the case, who cares if the PCs question their corpses or raise them, they're NPC fodder. Having it just be a magical tattoo that allows this and giving the NPCs Dodge or Toughness would be a better use of resources.

So yeah... that feat is pretty bad. My vote almost went to Monkey Lunge but that is obviously an oversight and poor editing and Q&A, this is just a niche, circumstantial feat that actually seems to do what it was intended for; which could have been done better in other ways.

[Mightypion]

I would almost consider lunge if it worked outside of my turn.

[Joey Cote]

My first kneejerk reaction is Heighten metamagic because I find the idea that if you use a higher level spell slot to cast a spell it isn't considered that level for anything that is concerned with the spell's level (primarily DC) is utterly beyond comprehension.

[Ryze Kuja]

Joey Cote wrote:

My first kneejerk reaction is Heighten metamagic because I find the idea that if you use a higher level spell slot to cast a spell it isn't considered that level for anything that is concerned with the spell's level (primarily DC) is utterly beyond comprehension.

^--- Agreed

[Melkiador]

The Android empathy feat bothers me. Requires 13 charisma on a race that gets a charisma penalty.

And then what the feat gives you is so weak and trades out what is strong that it should have just been a regular alternate racial ability for the emotionless racial ability.

[TxSam88]

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.
(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

[zza ni]

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

also using spell perfection\metamagic rods\ other abilities to help with th elevel\time of casting is common, while heightened spell metamagic is one of the best ways to increase the spell's dc.

[Claxon]

I'm going to take a different route and say Sacred Geometry. It's great for a player, bad for the other players and GM.

[TxSam88]

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

also using spell perfection\metamagic rods\ other abilities to help with th elevel\time of casting is common, while heightened spell metamagic is one of the best ways to increase the spell's dc.

yeah, those other items work just fine. I love metamagic rods. However, as for increading the DC of a spll, it's still taking up a higher level spell slot, and there's probably a spell of that level that just as good, if not better then the spell you are using metamagic on.

[Arkham Joker]

Claxon wrote:

I'm going to take a different route and say Sacred Geometry. It's great for a player, bad for the other players and GM.

Agreed.... I literally had to call a halt to a session when one of the players threw a massive tantrum because I wouldn't allow it. The player then proceeded to sulk for the next 2 sessions.

Leadership also for similar reasons...

[Wonderstell]

I am biased against them, but the Aldori content is just so awful.

Aldori Artistry

"Choose one of the following combat maneuvers: disarm, repositionAPG, stealAPG, sunder, or trip. You gain a +2 bonus when performing the selected maneuver while wielding an Aldori dueling sword. This bonus does not stack with the bonus provided by a combat maneuver feat with “improved” in its name (such as Improved Trip)."

...okay? So it doesn't stack with the absolute minimum investment you need to use the maneuvers? Why.

====

Aldori Style Aegis

"While using Aldori Style, at the beginning of your turn, you can designate a focused target as a swift action. This designation lasts until the beginning of your next turn, and you take a –2 penalty to your AC against all other creatures’ attacks for that duration. As an immediate action while using Combat Expertise or fighting defensively, you can attempt to parry the focused target’s attack. This functions as the swashbuckler’s opportune parry and riposte deed (Pathfinder RPG Advanced Class Guide 57), except that it does not cost panache and you cannot riposte."

Let's count swift actions.
1st round: enter style
2nd round: designate target
--attempt a parry
3rd round: can't focus on a target since you used up your swift as an immediate action earlier

That's without considering that the requirement for getting to attempt a parry is that you are using Combat Expertise or Fighting Defensively. Which buffs your AC. If you're already investing into your AC, why would using your attack roll be a benefit?

[Mightypion]

I do not think that these straight compare with literally killing yourself though :)

[Melkiador]

I think almost every metamagic feat has niche uses. Reach spell is probably my favorite. Especially on a spontaneous caster. Being able to react to the battlefield like that is huge.

[strayshift]

TxSam88 wrote:

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

also using spell perfection\metamagic rods\ other abilities to help with th elevel\time of casting is common, while heightened spell metamagic is one of the best ways to increase the spell's dc.

yeah, those other items work just fine. I love metamagic rods. However, as for increading the DC of a spll, it's still taking up a higher level spell slot, and there's probably a spell of that level that just as good, if not better then the spell you are using metamagic on.

I ban metamagic rods for the same reasons the o.p. dislikes the feats, they essentially allows the most powerful classes to 'buy' extra feats (but better as no level increase). Also ban items that add to spells known or give some degree of spontaneous casting (except arcane bonds). Casters need nerfing, martials need boosting.

Back to original thread, by and large I resent the feat tax feats (especially some of the critical feats), and some of the combat styles are plainly superior to others (dragon style). I can understand some 'flavour' feats but ultimately the bigger the game got the harder it was to balance them and account for the possible exploitation of them (e.g. Favoured Prestige Class & Prestigious Spellcaster, Accomplished Sneak Attacker, etc)

[Wonderstell]

Mightypion wrote:

I do not think that these straight compare with literally killing yourself though :)

Honestly, they're worse. I can think of a bunch of uses (okay, at least two) for Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh that are only limited by the strict prerequisite.

Permanent 3 dmg:
There are effects that only trigger when you are wounded, or disappear when you're fully healed. Bandages of Rapid Recovery would be great for the Healer's Hands/Signature Skill combo as they'd provide their +4 Hit Dice for as long as you want.

Immediate action death:
Reincarnated Druid, or an Eldest worshiper that has summoned a Remacera through Summon Monster V, would actually prefer to just insta-die over getting captured or killed by a death effect.

[Mark Hoover 330]

Melkiador wrote:

I think almost every metamagic feat has niche uses. Reach spell is probably my favorite. Especially on a spontaneous caster. Being able to react to the battlefield like that is huge.

Honestly I always like the Extend metamagic, especially 'cuz you can use it to write spell scrolls. If you're willing to pay the money, having extended buff spells on scrolls, especially minute/level or hour/level spells, is a good way to pre-buff before sections of dungeons.

As for feats I don't like... I've never been a fan of Piranha Strike. Power Attack for Weapon Finesse, but you can't ever get half again, can't ever remove the penalty w/out a spell, and only with specific finesse weapons, so wrapping one of those magic chords around a weapon to make it finessable wouldn't work.

[DeathlessOne]

Wonderstell wrote:

Permanent 3 dmg:

There are effects that only trigger when you are wounded, or disappear when you're fully healed. Bandages of Rapid Recovery would be great for the Healer's Hands/Signature Skill combo as they'd provide their +4 Hit Dice for as long as you want.

Immediate action death:
Reincarnated Druid, or an Eldest worshiper that has summoned a Remacera through Summon Monster V, would actually prefer to just insta-die over getting captured or killed by a death effect.

I was just going to pop in and mention how I'd use that feat to make it useful. But you beat me to it.

Honestly, if I can think of a way to use a feat, I can't in good faith call it worthless. I might call them highly situational, but that's about it. Even 'Monkey Lunge' has its uses for combat in the hands of someone already wielding a reach weapon, specializing in AoO's, and no other real action for their standard action that turn.

For me... there are certain feats that I would NEVER take because they simply are not worth the feat investment. Not that their effects are bad, but that there are just better ways to get a similar effect (even if they end up stacking together). An example is Improved Initiative. Yeah, its good. But I can get a trait to boost my initiative (not as much) or a familiar (which comes with a lot more options in addition to that boost).

Out of all the feats listed so far in the thread... I might get behind 'Strike Back' as a feat that should have never existed. But that is merely personal preference, as I already allow players to ready an attack in that manner.

[PossibleCabbage]

The reincarnated druid can make the troth work in a very specific kind of campaign since sure, killing yourself is to deal damage is less inconvenient for you but you still have to deal with stuff like:
- 2 permanent negative levels
- reclaiming your stuff
- can only do this once a week, and if you die in that week you're dead forever.
etc.

If you just want the effect of "being damaged" constantly there's ways to do that which don't cost a feat.

[Coidzor]

Wonderstell wrote:

Permanent 3 dmg:

There are effects that only trigger when you are wounded, or disappear when you're fully healed. Bandages of Rapid Recovery would be great for the Healer's Hands/Signature Skill combo as they'd provide their +4 Hit Dice for as long as you want.

Now that's the kind of exploiting mindset that I like to see!

Wonderstell wrote:

Immediate action death:

Reincarnated Druid, or an Eldest worshiper that has summoned a Remacera through Summon Monster V, would actually prefer to just insta-die over getting captured or killed by a death effect.

What does summoning them do? Or is the idea that since they're always 3 hp down, they summon the remacera, have it bite them once, and then since they never fully heal, then whenever they die, they'll auto-reincarnate?

[Wonderstell]

@DeathlessOne

Some feats are just frustrating. Especially when you can see how much wasted potential it has.

==

@PossibleCabbage

The minor explosion when dying isn't the primary goal, or even an afterthought. What you want is to avoid the worst-case scenario of dying to a Death Effect as that is the one true weakness of the archetype. In a world where there are many fates worse than death it is an advantage to have the power of instant death.

Do you know of any "being damaged" ways that wouldn't require level investment and aren't too expensive? I've looked around, but I don't think I found anything except the Ring of Terrible Cost.

==

@Coidzor

Coidzor wrote:

What does summoning them do? Or is the idea that since they're always 3 hp down, they summon the remacera, have it bite them once, and then since they never fully heal, then whenever they die, they'll auto-reincarnate?

Huh, I hadn't thought about how the permanent dmg would interact! Would be even better if it did.

Remacera is just a way for other characters than that specific archetype to also get a reincarnate-on-death effect which is why I brought it up. As mentioned it can be an advantage to just choose to die when the alternative is worse. Death can be solved.
But getting teleported into the ninth layer of hell or feebleminded and imprisoned on a demiplane are harder cases to crack.

[MrCharisma]

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

Also, this is slightly nitpicky, but Wizards get 14 feats, 4 of which are basically dedicated Metamagic feat slots.

[MrCharisma]

Mightypion wrote:

I would almost consider lunge if it worked outside of my turn.

Lunge is actually great for Reach-Weapon users.

If I run up and smack an enemy with my longspear then on his turn he can 5-foot step and full-attack me. That's a net-loss for me really.

Or I can hold where I am and let them come to me, then I get my AoO and the enemy only gets 1 attack before I get to do the 5-foot dance and full-attack him (If I'm clever I can even ready an attack so I get 2 attacks as he charges in). Much better for me.

But what if my enemy doesn't charge me? What if he runs around me and attacks the Wizard. Well then I've wasted a turn and now I have to run up and stab him, and I'm back where I was in the first paragraph, only I've lost a whole turn's worth of actions.

Well that's where I take the Lunge feat. I can run up and stab him from 15 feet away, and now if he wants to attack me he has to move 10 feet, which means he provokes from me AND misses his full attack action. It's the best of both worlds! And yes he could still run off and attack the Wizard, but at least now I haven't wasted my turn standing around doing nothing, I got to stab someone!

Great feat for someone using reach tactics.

(Obviously less good for Reach Clerics, they'll probably be casting on their turn, so no need for Lunge. If you plan on doing less casting and more stabbing though, I thoroughly recommend it.)

[Heather 540]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

As for feats I don't like... I've never been a fan of Piranha Strike. Power Attack for Weapon Finesse, but you can't ever get half again, can't ever remove the penalty w/out a spell, and only with specific finesse weapons, so wrapping one of those magic chords around a weapon to make it finessable wouldn't work.

And unlike Power Attack, it's not even a pre-req for anything.

[zza ni]

Wonderstell wrote:

Mightypion wrote:

I do not think that these straight compare with literally killing yourself though :)

Honestly, they're worse. I can think of a bunch of uses (okay, at least two) for Troth of the Forgotten Pharaoh that are only limited by the strict prerequisite.

Permanent 3 dmg:
There are effects that only trigger when you are wounded, or disappear when you're fully healed. Bandages of Rapid Recovery would be great for the Healer's Hands/Signature Skill combo as they'd provide their +4 Hit Dice for as long as you want.

Immediate action death:
Reincarnated Druid, or an Eldest worshiper that has summoned a Remacera through Summon Monster V, would actually prefer to just insta-die over getting captured or killed by a death effect.

so i like your idea but i was a bit unsure about how the rules go. and i got even more so after looking things up.

so the feat burn the body to ash, preventing spells such as raise dead or speak with dead.
im not sure if the ash's left behind are enough of a body part to be useful for reincarnation. anyone have any thoughts about it?

also the Remacera ability seem to only work until the damage it dealt is healed. not the total damage dealt to the subject. i believe once everything but the 3 hp you need wish to heal is fixed the damage dealt by the summoned creature should be healed.

next thing im not sure is since the feat has a whole ritual of making the explosive tattoo on the body of the character. after he reincarnate. will the new body have said tattoo or will he need to get it again?

last bit, does anyone have a good idea for how to keep your loot with you once you do reincarnate? (best idea i had was having a secret coffer\chest\vault spells, but it's arcane and will only work if he has time to put it all in)

[Ryze Kuja]

VoodistMonk wrote:

Ryze Kuja, have seen this freaking mask?!?! Give it to your Mystic Theurge necromancer build. Lol.

O.o that's pretty crazy.

[Wonderstell]

zza ni wrote:

so the feat burn the body to ash, preventing spells such as raise dead or speak with dead.

im not sure if the ash's left behind are enough of a body part to be useful for reincarnation. anyone have any thoughts about it?

"Spells such as raise dead or speak with dead cannot be used on your remains, but your equipment is unaffected."

It's a bit cheesy, but neither the Reincarnated Druid or the Remacera's reincarnation are spells. They are Ex and Su abilities and wouldn't be affected by something preventing spells from working. Disregarding that, both abilities grants you the effect of the spell rather than a "free cast". You don't need to qualify for "Target dead creature touched" since you skip that step and go straight to the effect.

zza ni wrote:

also the Remacera ability seem to only work until the damage it dealt is healed. not the total damage dealt to the subject. i believe once everything but the 3 hp you need wish to heal is fixed the damage dealt by the summoned creature should be healed.

I agree. Fortunately the Remacera's ability works with any wounds inflicted, so if PossibleCabbage knows of any good permanent dmg effects it's not impossible to make the Remacera damage you with them.

[TxSam88]

MrCharisma wrote:

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

Also, this is slightly nitpicky, but Wizards get 14 feats, 4 of which are basically dedicated Metamagic feat slots.

Part of why I said 10.... Such a horrible requirement for Wizards.

[TxSam88]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

As for feats I don't like... I've never been a fan of Piranha Strike. Power Attack for Weapon Finesse, but you can't ever get half again, can't ever remove the penalty w/out a spell, and only with specific finesse weapons, so wrapping one of those magic chords around a weapon to make it finessable wouldn't work.

I think Piranha Strike is a must have for Dex builds. At some point you get to a high enough BAB+bonus that your first attack ALWAYS hits (and sometimes even your second or third), with lots of room to spare, why not turn some of that wasted to hit modifier and turn it into extra damage.

[pad300]

TxSam88 wrote:

MrCharisma wrote:

zza ni wrote:

TxSam88 wrote:

I generally think Metamagic feats are bad. Wizards only get 10 feats, you have to use one for a metamagic ability, which not only ups the level slot of the spell, it also increases it's casting time. When for the most part you can just cast a higher level spell that's better overall.

(I'll admit that things the magus using magical knack etc are an exception).

wizards prepare spells, using metamagic for them doesn't increase the casting time, that is only for spontaneously casters.

Also, this is slightly nitpicky, but Wizards get 14 feats, 4 of which are basically dedicated Metamagic feat slots.

Part of why I said 10.... Such a horrible requirement for Wizards.

Seriously? You're ignoring Item Creation and Arcane Discoveries... Suffice it to say you're missing some really good stuff...

[DeathlessOne]

TxSam88 wrote:

I think Piranha Strike is a must have for Dex builds. At some point you get to a high enough BAB+bonus that your first attack ALWAYS hits (and sometimes even your second or third), with lots of room to spare, why not turn some of that wasted to hit modifier and turn it into extra damage.

I'd rather invest enough points into Strength to qualify for Power Attack, and use it in the place of Piranha Strike. Better return for your accuracy loss and you can still qualify for all those other fun feats requiring power attack.

Sure, you don't as high of a Dexterity as you might want, but the trade off is you get to carry a lot more stuff before you get weighed down... That can be bad for any dex-build.

[Dragon78]

Troth of the forgotten Pharoah.... and any ability or feat like it.

[Mark Hoover 330]

High Dex build: usually requires more feats than a high Str build. Then you add in that Power Attack, on the first attack anyway, can be mitigated by Furious Focus; Piranha Strike doesn't have such a feat. THEN you tack on that 1. the weapon needs to be finesseable, 2. you can't 2-h and thus gain extra damage out of Piranha Strike and 3. Finessable weapons have a lower base damage than any other weapon, I really feel like kicking in an extra 2-12 damage per hit for a negative 1-6 penalty to hit isn't worth it.

Plus there's a couple ways now to get Dex to damage anyway. If you're committing to Dex build, why not pick up one of these ways and skip the Piranha Strike?

[Lynceus]

Or just have a 13 Strength and take regular Power Attack on your Dex build, great for Elven Curve-Blade and Branch Spear builds.

[TxSam88]

Mark Hoover 330 wrote:

High Dex build: usually requires more feats than a high Str build. Then you add in that Power Attack, on the first attack anyway, can be mitigated by Furious Focus; Piranha Strike doesn't have such a feat. THEN you tack on that 1. the weapon needs to be finesseable, 2. you can't 2-h and thus gain extra damage out of Piranha Strike and 3. Finessable weapons have a lower base damage than any other weapon, I really feel like kicking in an extra 2-12 damage per hit for a negative 1-6 penalty to hit isn't worth it.

Plus there's a couple ways now to get Dex to damage anyway. If you're committing to Dex build, why not pick up one of these ways and skip the Piranha Strike?

I'm a big fan of TWF, which requires high DEX, you also get the benefit of high AC and high initiate as a bonus. More attacks compensates for the extra damage the STR builds get, and becomes a force multiplier for anything that grants bonus damage on an attack, like sneak attack, flaming, etc. I'll take a lower damage die for an extra attack any day of the week. more chances to hit, more chance to crit and more times bonus effects come in to play.

[Lynceus]

It would be better if the TWF rules weren't so darned worried about being overpowered. I can only assume that the changes made in 3e were a reaction to how OP 2e TWF was, but man. A feat to be able to do it with penalties (as opposed to massive penalties). A feat to get your full off hand Str damage. A feat to get an extra iterative attack. Another feat to get an extra second iterative.

All with really high requirements unless you're a Ranger. Yikes! And then, it only pays off if you do have a source of bonus damage like Smite, Sneak Attack, Flaming, Favored Enemy, etc..

[Mightypion]

I think high dex vs high str is very strongly influenced by Elephant in the room rules, where power attack and weapon finesse are free and power attack is an option for anyone with BAB >1, disregarding the STR requirement.

I think the issue with TWF is that actually getting full attacks off is pretty tough in practice vs thinking opposition.

[TxSam88]

Mightypion wrote:

I think the issue with TWF is that actually getting full attacks off is pretty tough in practice vs thinking opposition.

Round 1, Stealth or invisibility to get into position

Round 2, Full iterative attack with both weapons (usually with sneak attack damage, d8's if you are smart).

[Claxon]

TxSam88 wrote:

Mightypion wrote:

I think the issue with TWF is that actually getting full attacks off is pretty tough in practice vs thinking opposition.

Round 1, Stealth or invisibility to get into position

Round 2, Full iterative attack with both weapons (usually with sneak attack damage, d8's if you are smart).

And if your pouncing barbarian friend and archer buddy just do there thing and full attack and kill the enemies before you can do that?

That sort of thing sounds good in theory, but I've never seen it work in my group.