| 13 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Wooof!"
Bailiff grabs the ball and keeps running. I got a ball! I got a ball!
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
If we're going to have a game with granular gear like mugs, chalk, waterskins, and sacks in it, I really like having things like balls and pinwheels and waffle irons to make the minutiae fun and colorful. I don't think any of these items are necessarily more useful than each other in my campaigns, I'm just as likely to assume a player has a sack as I am to assume they have a ball when they think it adds to the scene. But having those neat little toys added in if anyone wants to do things. Also for a few urban warehouse scenes I've created, having trivial gear like balls to fill crates and benchmark against would've been neat. I like the ball.
It struck me as a trifle odd that the developers went out of their way to get rid of mechanical representations of simple things like pouches, scroll cases, sheaths, vials and similar items that could easily be relegated to flavor, only to then turn around and add a number of items with no obvious mechanical purpose.
The developer quote about why they wrote it in sure clears things up for me pretty well though. :)
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.
That presumes there's an equivalency here. The ball has no elaborate description, no mechanics that need to be designed and tested, no value that needs to be considered.
It is absolutely not the 1:1 trade people in this thread are acting like it is.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.That presumes there's an equivalency here. The ball has no elaborate description, no mechanics that need to be designed and tested, no value that needs to be considered.
It is absolutely not the 1:1 trade people in this thread are acting like it is.
It's non-zero though: someone figured out a bulk, hands used and a description for a ball... This seems like something that COULD have been just added in a paragraph of 'new' items listed in it with just a cost added instead of an entire entry for each taking up the space of just one of the full entries.
That and you then end up with a ball that you can't play soccer with [it MUST be used in 1 hand :P] or have your animal companion fetch it [no hands]. Overall, IMO it's better to let something like a ball just be noted as available and add a cost as the full entry ends up lacking to anyone that actually wants to use it as you end up with balls you can't kick.
| 14 people marked this as a favorite. |
Contributors get to write what they want and within set parameters (I assume). It goes through an editorial process like everything else, but they still decide their direction. They wanted to make a toy store and have a ball in it. You can't say "If you got rid of X, there would be more room for Y." They didn't want to make Y, they wanted to make X.
|
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
If we're going to have a game with granular gear like mugs, chalk, waterskins, and sacks in it, I really like having things like balls and pinwheels and waffle irons to make the minutiae fun and colorful. I don't think any of these items are necessarily more useful than each other in my campaigns, I'm just as likely to assume a player has a sack as I am to assume they have a ball when they think it adds to the scene. But having those neat little toys added in if anyone wants to do things. Also for a few urban warehouse scenes I've created, having trivial gear like balls to fill crates and benchmark against would've been neat. I like the ball.It struck me as a trifle odd that the developers went out of their way to get rid of mechanical representations of simple things like pouches, scroll cases, sheaths, vials and similar items that could easily be relegated to flavor, only to then turn around and add a number of items with no obvious mechanical purpose.
The developer quote about why they wrote it in sure clears things up for me pretty well though. :)
The developer intent is fine and all, but if they can do something like these toys after the big decision to remove the minutia items like "every container ever" it tells me that the design "bible" for 2e is not up to date, not clear, not binding, or doesn't exist. I don't think they're daft enough to not have one at all, but I have to wonder about the other options.
| 20 people marked this as a favorite. |
They removed the containers for a specific reason to do with simplifying keeping track of where you have items stored based on community feedback - the intent wasn't to remove mundane items, it was to make inventory management less of a chore.
Contributor
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
They removed the containers for a specific reason to do with simplifying keeping track of where you have items stored based on community feedback - the intent wasn't to remove mundane items, it was to make inventory management less of a chore.
Huh. I could see that for those people using electronic sheets especially. I was always irritated at the amount of work it took to transfer something from one container to another in Hero Lab.
They removed the containers for a specific reason to do with simplifying keeping track of where you have items stored based on community feedback - the intent wasn't to remove mundane items, it was to make inventory management less of a chore.Huh. I could see that for those people using electronic sheets especially.
Interesting, because in my experience it was the reverse. Very tedious to track on paper on what goes in what container, finding good space, constantly erasing stuff and remembering what is inside what but in Foundry I just dragged and dropped into a container and you could also collapse the container. Very neat stuff.
|
Contributor
|
| 11 people marked this as a favorite. |
Contributors get to write what they want and within set parameters (I assume). It goes through an editorial process like everything else, but they still decide their direction. They wanted to make a toy store and have a ball in it. You can't say "If you got rid of X, there would be more room for Y." They didn't want to make Y, they wanted to make X.
The process varies. Usually it goes like this:
DEVELOPER: Here is a list of the store types we want to cover in this volume. Which one do you want to do?
FREELANCER: Ooh, I'll take the toy store!
Then the Developer sends the outline. That outline might specify a couple things that the store must have, or just outline some of the sorts of things that the store might have. If the store comes from Canon, it might be named already. If not... The freelancer might be able to pitch things like the store name and location.
At the halfway point, the freelancer sends in a midpoint that gives the developer an idea of what the store's personality is, and some of the items. Then the freelancer writes like crazy. Sometimes there are too many words, and the freelancer has to cut some to make room. Sometimes there are too few words, and the freelancer might need a small quirky item like a ball to fill out the word count. Getting that word count to within 1-5% of the assigned value, and having them be good and fun words is all part of the process.
I think the ball is a fine addition -- I just wish that it came in multiple sizes.
Hmm
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
"Wooof!"
Bailiff grabs the ball and keeps running. I got a ball! I got a ball!
Sorry Bailiff, Grand Bazaar hasn’t been sanctioned yet. You need to wait for that before you can ask your gnome for a ball!
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Bailiff drops the ball and walks away, tail drooping.
I almost got the ball...
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
Just a couple sessions ago my players were picking up some school supplies for the kids at a daycare. They wanted to pick up some toys as well, totally unprompted. I would have loved to have these items at the ready to offer for them to peruse.
I really don't understand what the problem is.
|
|
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I think partly what we’re seeing is a result of merging everything into the hardback books. Stuff like this was published in 1E, but usually appeared in a player companion or campaign setting book, and not in the big hardbacks. So, like, in Adventurer’s Armory instead of Ultimate Equipment (I’m sure there are things in UE as well). But now it’s all mixed together. I don’t have a problem with including something like this. The multiple entries for waffle irons might be a bit much, but I also consider that a throwback to 1E, so I can see why it was added.
| 8 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the ball is a fine addition -- I just wish that it came in multiple sizes.
Or was usable without hands: no matter how many times I try to kick it, it doesn't work. And no way to get a money familiar to balance on one unless they do a handstand. I demand soccer balls and circus bears on large balls!! :P
|
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I think the ball is a fine addition -- I just wish that it came in multiple sizes.Or was usable without hands: no matter how many times I try to kick it, it doesn't work. And no way to get a money familiar to balance on one unless they do a handstand. I demand soccer balls and circus bears on large balls!! :P
I am certainly presuming that this was meant in jest but its actually a significant part of my problem with a ball being in this book.
Prior to this a GM had the choice of
1) Just saying "sure, you can buy a ball" or
2) saying "No, its not in the book"
As I've said above, in my experience (but NOT others) all GMs fall into category 1.
But NOW we have the choice of a GM saying
1) Yeah, you've got a ball or
2) Yeah, you've got a ball but it has these particular stats and no other.
And, unfortunately, I HAVE run into the first category. Now that the ball has stats, ONLY those balls can be bought.
|
There is some value in having those items for people who lean heavily into the roleplay. Just like there is some value in having solid rules for weapons and armor for people into combat. The people in between like having both available to them.
Agreed
Any problem with such items lies solely on how much space may have been dedicated to them. Some things really don't need deep explanations. Others would benefit from plenty. Ex: Do we really need different tiers of waffle irons? Or could it had simply been mentioned that a GM might allow higher tier versions with different materials? When you have systems that are lacking, but space is used up randomly it can be quite bothersome.
Disagreed - I really loved the different levels of waffle irons!
This is why duplicate feats/spells/descriptions are so troublesome. When you look at just a few it seems innocent. But once you realize how many times it gets copied they can take quite a lot of space.
Agreed here, I wish that they had put in Additional Feats for classes as well as Archetypes.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Contributors get to write what they want and within set parameters (I assume). It goes through an editorial process like everything else, but they still decide their direction. They wanted to make a toy store and have a ball in it. You can't say "If you got rid of X, there would be more room for Y." They didn't want to make Y, they wanted to make X.The process varies. Usually it goes like this:
DEVELOPER: Here is a list of the store types we want to cover in this volume. Which one do you want to do?
FREELANCER: Ooh, I'll take the toy store!
Then the Developer sends the outline. That outline might specify a couple things that the store must have, or just outline some of the sorts of things that the store might have. If the store comes from Canon, it might be named already. If not... The freelancer might be able to pitch things like the store name and location.
At the halfway point, the freelancer sends in a midpoint that gives the developer an idea of what the store's personality is, and some of the items. Then the freelancer writes like crazy. Sometimes there are too many words, and the freelancer has to cut some to make room. Sometimes there are too few words, and the freelancer might need a small quirky item like a ball to fill out the word count. Getting that word count to within 1-5% of the assigned value, and having them be good and fun words is all part of the process.
I think the ball is a fine addition -- I just wish that it came in multiple sizes.
Hmm
Totally agree.
I want to make a Weapon Improviser archetype Fighter whose main schtick is throwing balls at people into submission/death. Baseballs, Footballs, Soccerballs...the list goes on. Heck, even non-ball items would suffice, technically.
Even if it might not scale, it'd make for a fun NPC for parties to face at certain levels.
| 7 people marked this as a favorite. |
Before becoming an adventurer, my current character used to sell little alchemically powered toys at a circus, so the existance of toys, and their prices, is actually quite helpul to me for rp purposes
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
Pfft.. If you don't know how to use balls to win the game, what are you doing?
Honestly there is lot of reasons to have balls. Cause you can cast spells on them, and throw them around. Imagine having a bouncy ball with silence cast on it. Or perhaps anti-magic on a hackysack ball.
My personal favorite, that I've used in every edition I've played, is to get a rubber bouncy ball can cast continual light on it.Then hurl it down the dungeon to light things ahead of us without the enemy knowing where we are.
| 33 people marked this as a favorite. |
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
Personally, I rather enjoy seeing these types of mundane items ending up in these books.
I 100% recognise that this isn't everyone but I am pretty time-poor and my players do, on occasion, ask for these types of left-of-field items and as much as "just come up with a random amount" is a common solution, but it requires me to stop and think about an answer on the spot even if briefly (which is notoriously difficult for me and my ADHD, sadly).
Its just a massive time saver for me to be able to point at a table and let my players know this is where they can find the item which allows me to use my time to decide on the rules elements of things that I can't and don't expect Paizo to produce (like encounters or custom unique magical items).
So, yeah, I wouldn't want an entire book dedicated to mundane items (although...) but I do appreciate such things to be included every now and then.
| 18 people marked this as a favorite. |
So one thing I notice is the opportunity for inspiration.
Like, leave the GMs aside. how many players would think to add a waffle iron to their kit if it wasn't published as an option? For those who do decide that yes, they need a waffle iron, that's a place where their character is just a bit richer - because now "owns a waffle iron" is part of that character, and there's a reason for it, and it fees back into the overall idea of a character.
Heck -I'd bet that there are going to be at least a few players who will see "waffle iron" and come up with a character just based on that - inspired in large part because they suddenly want a character who would have a waffle iron with them, and then they need to fill in the other details.
Inspiring fun and interesting character concepts is a valuable and worthwhile way to spend page count.
As for the ball... it's perhaps a bit less evocative than a waffle iron. At the same time, if I'm playing a ranger with a wolf companion, then the fact that there's a ball on the equipment list means that there's a decent chance I'll buy one, and play ball with my animal companion from time to time, and it'll be a fun little thing about the character, and might grow from there (story hook, where the ball overshoots and winds up somewhere, or maybe we hit 10th level and I decide to upgrade the ball to something magical or....) If there's no ball on the list... I probably wont' think about it, and/or probably won't bother. Not that I couldn't. Just that I won't.
In a game like this, there are various ways to give power to things. One of the simplest is just to give it rules. Paizo has decided to give power to the idea that an adventurer might wish to own things that speak to their lives outside adventuring. That's not a bad thing.
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
So one thing I notice is the opportunity for inspiration.
Like, leave the GMs aside. how many players would think to add a waffle iron to their kit if it wasn't published as an option? For those who do decide that yes, they need a waffle iron, that's a place where their character is just a bit richer - because now "owns a waffle iron" is part of that character, and there's a reason for it, and it fees back into the overall idea of a character.
Heck -I'd bet that there are going to be at least a few players who will see "waffle iron" and come up with a character just based on that - inspired in large part because they suddenly want a character who would have a waffle iron with them, and then they need to fill in the other details.
Inspiring fun and interesting character concepts is a valuable and worthwhile way to spend page count.
As for the ball... it's perhaps a bit less evocative than a waffle iron. At the same time, if I'm playing a ranger with a wolf companion, then the fact that there's a ball on the equipment list means that there's a decent chance I'll buy one, and play ball with my animal companion from time to time, and it'll be a fun little thing about the character, and might grow from there (story hook, where the ball overshoots and winds up somewhere, or maybe we hit 10th level and I decide to upgrade the ball to something magical or....) If there's no ball on the list... I probably wont' think about it, and/or probably won't bother. Not that I couldn't. Just that I won't.
In a game like this, there are various ways to give power to things. One of the simplest is just to give it rules. Paizo has decided to give power to the idea that an adventurer might wish to own things that speak to their lives outside adventuring. That's not a bad thing.
As someone who likes the game to play pretend...
Yeah. Like, technically I don't need the rules to tell me I can buy a ball or whatevs, but it's nice to know how much normal clothes cost so I can gauge how oppulent my foppish noble is getting when he drops a handful of gold for a luxurious silk robe, or know how much my alchemist spends to go visit a spa to soak in a hot tub after killing a dragon, or how much a ball costs so my druid can play with their their animal companion
I don't need rules to roleplay, but rules can help roleplay, and rules that only exists to open up roleplay does help when part of your group is super rules focused to remind that, yes, playing make believe is also part of the game
| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
And see with these seemingly mundane things, Players can and will come up with crazy stuff to do with them. And for some, like me, that is part of the game there too.
What would be nice though is if Paizo released a sort of "Players companion" again once a month for PF2 that was set up sort of like a gazette magazine. Kinda like they did back when they made dragon magazine.
Have a bunch of random items, stories, and other stuff in it. Then at the end of the year, put out a 'yearly catalog' that does some errata and chooses the best of the stuff that year to republish
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since Ball requires 1 hand, does that mean it's impossible to juggle?
Or alternatively, how can I figure how many balls I can juggle based on my proficiencies and attributes?
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
Since Ball requires 1 hand, does that mean it's impossible to juggle?
Or alternatively, how can I figure how many balls I can juggle based on my proficiencies and attributes?
There is a skill feat for juggling Juggle.
If you have the juggle feat (if you don't have it, your character hasn't learned how to juggle) you can juggle three items (unless you have a different number of hands, the number is number of hands +1) of light or negligible bulk.
The juggler archetype has feats to let you juggle more items (I think the max a two-handed creature can achieve is 5 items)
| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
It feels weird that people need to be level 2 with an archetype to juggle.
Or that people on golarion can't juggle nine balls
| 12 people marked this as a favorite. |
It feels weird that people need to be level 2 with an archetype to juggle.
Or that people on golarion can't juggle nine balls
Speaking as a professional juggler, there's a difference between "can juggle after an hour of practice," and "can juggle and utilize the items I'm holding." Same goes for items above four, in my opinion. With practice, it can become pretty easy to use the different items that you're juggling (such as in PF's case - throwing knives or activating wands). Record holders (and I would say generally cascades/showers above 4 balls) generally aren't doing much more than getting the balls in the air for more than a few rotations. Utilizing the thrown items usually isn't really part of the act for them.
That said, at some point, you just have to let game mechanics exist and not constantly look for real world applications.
EDIT: At least at my tables, if you want to juggle, that's a Perform check. If you want to juggle in combat while fighting, that needs the skill feat.
It feels weird that people need to be level 2 with an archetype to juggle.
Or that people on golarion can't juggle nine balls
You don't have to take the archetype - you can just take juggle as a skill feat on its own.
The archetype just gives you the skill feat and trained in performance in exchange for a class feat, and access to feats to expand on your juggling ability.
| 2 people marked this as a favorite. |
I need mundane items in my book. How can I make my dragon stance flaming kick Sanji rip off if I can't procure a waffle iron with witch to cook for the ladies? All the little things seal in the flavor and help cement the the game as a ttrp as opposed to a strict battle simulator/ dungeon crawler.
Full disclosure this was a 5e character my friend wanted to make called Chef Zest.
| 6 people marked this as a favorite. |
That also only holds true for PCs. An NPC could easily be level 1 in PC terms, but be a level 8 juggler. Don't challenge them to a juggle-off; you're gonna lose.
I can't wait for the Jugglenaut to TPK my group
Warning : analyzing the content of a setting book through a game power lens might cause distress.
Personally, I'm not of the opinion that everything in the game needs to be power based, but tbf to Grand Bazaar it also has some very *good* items.
| 3 people marked this as a favorite. |
I don't have the book, but I have flipped through it, Isn't the whole framing premise of the book "here are a bunch of shops at the Grand Bazaar at Absalom, each of them has a specific focus."
The "toy store" shop (where the ball appears) might be the crunchiest part of the book because it has an ancestry in it.