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Behold the greatest of all itens from Grand Bazaar!
Paizo! Why do you do this things? Why put such useless item in gameplay so later after the core rule book. Is it just a joke? A bloat to complete some book blank space? Seriously please stop put useless things in the books this just keeps us from finding useful things.
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Well, there's an entire toy shop, which also has stuff like blocks, moldable clay and kites.
As for me, Iunno man, it's a toy shop, what do you expect? It's two pages of fun, cheap, mostly-narrative items, it's not like half the book consists of this stuff. Plus that same section has the poppet ancestry right after, which contextualizes it a bit more and is something 'useful' if you felt that the toys themselves are 'useless' (which they might be in your campaign, but I can very much imagine bringing them up in a less serious game, and/or one involving children, as players, characters or both).
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Gotta disagree, seeing that in there filled me with joy.
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Happy to see fun playful items, My starting equipment often involves a knick knack, toy, or game that I deem fitting for my character that they mess around with during downtime. And as a dm I often reward creative uses to it, (tossing the ball to distract a dog, giving a toy to a child to calm them down during a distressing manner. Perhaps tossing the ball from afar in order to deactivate a trap by having it tossed at a panel)
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This reminds me of the same conversation that was had some time ago surrounding the Quick Sort spell, from Secrets of Magic - that it's 'useless' and "clogs up the item/spell lists and making it harder to get to the useful things".
My stance on that kind of content is that Pathfinder is a game that markets itself to a broad audience with a variety of playstyles and preferences, and a handful of quirky options here and there in non-essential books isn't the end of the world for optimizers.
Moreover, presenting more 'mundane' options like this helps one broaden the horizons of what's out there in the game world beyond the immediate needs and wants of high-action adventurers, offer more opportunities for character expression, and surely there's people out there who can put them to creative use regardless (pixierose beat me to the exact ones I was going to bring up).
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Behold the greatest of all itens from Grand Bazaar!
Paizo! Why do you do this things? Why put such useless item in gameplay so later after the core rule book. Is it just a joke? A bloat to complete some book blank space? Seriously please stop put useless things in the books this just keeps us from finding useful things.
I'll tell you what, when I come across some Catfolk NPCs, I could use this as a means of distraction so we can sneak past them or bribe them or something.
A Smoke/Teargas Bomb made as a little rubber ball would also be pretty dope as well.
I won't go so far as to say it's "useless." Just like everything else in this game, it has a niche, and if you're creative enough, that niche can be useful to your gameplan.
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Speak for yourself, i actually love it. Maybe ill do a blitzball based character
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Speak for yourself, i actually love it. Maybe ill do a blitzball based character
Oh man, you could make a character who throws sports balls at people with a Fighter using the Weapon Improviser dedication. Legendary in Improvised weapons plus some pretty neat feats to work with in regards to thrown weapons.
"Here's the wind-up....and the pitch!"
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Clearly a case of unacceptable power creep: The comparative amount of fun a player can have with this is far greater than the offerings before!
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Just wait until the OP finds the waffle iron.
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Yes, cause we all know Pathfinder isn’t a role playing game, it’s just a murder simulator.
No interactions, no having fun, no fantasy, no setting, no story. Just rounds of combat from one room to the next.
Psh, real gamers don't use "rooms" or "next". There is only the featureless white void of the DPR.
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I kinda wish rather space used by this could have gone on more Tattoos
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I kinda agree with the original poster. While I love quirky items (magical or non magical) IMO for it to be worth actual text in the book I want it to be something that I can't just add myself.
I don't NEED a book to tell me that I can buy a set of dice. or a ball, or a hockey stick, etc etc etc. I just assume it exists and couldn't care if it is 1 cp or 4cp.
And, for the really anal GM, this ball won't let me play soccer (it only can be wielded with one hand) or field hockey (it needs a hand to wield). I mean, its not a bad default for a ball but many balls don't fit these stats so I think I'd be better off with OUT the stats.
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I think the way the thread title and the OP is phrased is pretty mean - you can provide constructive criticism/your opinion without all of the sarcasm and derision.
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Behold the greatest of all itens from Grand Bazaar!
Paizo! Why do you do this things? Why put such useless item in gameplay so later after the core rule book. Is it just a joke? A bloat to complete some book blank space? Seriously please stop put useless things in the books this just keeps us from finding useful things.
I'm beginning to suspect that you're not actually an excited corgi like your avatar would suggest after all.
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I kinda agree with the original poster. While I love quirky items (magical or non magical) IMO for it to be worth actual text in the book I want it to be something that I can't just add myself.
I don't NEED a book to tell me that I can buy a set of dice. or a ball, or a hockey stick, etc etc etc. I just assume it exists and couldn't care if it is 1 cp or 4cp.
And, for the really anal GM, this ball won't let me play soccer (it only can be wielded with one hand) or field hockey (it needs a hand to wield). I mean, its not a bad default for a ball but many balls don't fit these stats so I think I'd be better off with OUT the stats.
You can please some of the people some of the time, but not all of the people all of the time. A good example right here.
Don't forget that page space being removed doesn't magically replace it with something more crunchy. This has been brought up before in the context of AP book length. Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.
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I don't have the book in front of me. But I don't believe the eyeglasses provide a mechanical benefit. If I'm wrong correct me. But they may fit a roleplay. Unless this is just a murder simulator.
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If there's an appropriate book for mundane knicknacks it's Grand Bazaar. I'd rather these things be here than in the CRB, for sure.
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Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.
You've totally missed my point. I LOVE items that are quirky and don't have mechanical benefits. So, I'd love, for example, to be able to buy a wind up soldier on a horse that could move for a minute when set down on a table (note, don't have the book right now so I have no clue if that is already in the book). Or a plush cat that purrs when you stroke it.
But those are things that I can NOT just assume are in the world without GM input. I can't just say that I've got them and expect every PFS GM to nod their head that they agree.
But a ball? It would have to be an exceedingly strict GM (so strict that I don't think that I've ever met one) to say "No, you can't have a ball".
I also want quirky things that somebody ELSE has thought up for me since they'll likely think of something that I didn't.
THAT is what I want the space in the toy store section used for. Quirky magical or non magical toys. NOT for things that give me mechanical benefits. And not for things that are just too mundane to bother with.
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My character, Tarka Firefang, is finally complete. :D
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I really wonder if people would complain if the space in the book had been used for more description of the shop for examples.
Consider the power of formatting.
I'm presuming (possibly incorrectly) that the OP didn't get the book, and saw the item on AoN outside of any context. So at least in that possible scenario, no, there probably wouldn't be a complaint? A ball in a toy shop is pretty natural; a ball presented in adventuring gear does seem a bit weird.
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Futureproofing for the Athlete archetype: demoralize using Athletics to dribble, knock them prone by breaking their ankles.
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Futureproofing for the Athlete archetype: demoralize using Athletics to dribble, knock them prone by breaking their ankles.
It's a two action activity. The first action lets you invite them to come on and slam, and the second lets you welcome them to the jam.
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"Hey guys, there's a slope here."
*Throws down some marbles or a ball* (depending on how smooth or rough the terrain is).
"Oh no! The wizard is drowning!
*Tosses the ball as a flotation device*
"How are we going to distract the guard?"
*Tosses ball over yonder to make noise.*
And then there is the comic above.
It definitely belongs in adventuring gear.
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Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.You've totally missed my point. I LOVE items that are quirky and don't have mechanical benefits. So, I'd love, for example, to be able to buy a wind up soldier on a horse that could move for a minute when set down on a table (note, don't have the book right now so I have no clue if that is already in the book). Or a plush cat that purrs when you stroke it.
But those are things that I can NOT just assume are in the world without GM input. I can't just say that I've got them and expect every PFS GM to nod their head that they agree.
But a ball? It would have to be an exceedingly strict GM (so strict that I don't think that I've ever met one) to say "No, you can't have a ball".
I also want quirky things that somebody ELSE has thought up for me since they'll likely think of something that I didn't.
THAT is what I want the space in the toy store section used for. Quirky magical or non magical toys. NOT for things that give me mechanical benefits. And not for things that are just too mundane to bother with.
I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.
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I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.You've totally missed my point. I LOVE items that are quirky and don't have mechanical benefits. So, I'd love, for example, to be able to buy a wind up soldier on a horse that could move for a minute when set down on a table (note, don't have the book right now so I have no clue if that is already in the book). Or a plush cat that purrs when you stroke it.
But those are things that I can NOT just assume are in the world without GM input. I can't just say that I've got them and expect every PFS GM to nod their head that they agree.
But a ball? It would have to be an exceedingly strict GM (so strict that I don't think that I've ever met one) to say "No, you can't have a ball".
I also want quirky things that somebody ELSE has thought up for me since they'll likely think of something that I didn't.
THAT is what I want the space in the toy store section used for. Quirky magical or non magical toys. NOT for things that give me mechanical benefits. And not for things that are just too mundane to bother with.
Well, sure, but this book wasn't going to be able to solve that problem anyway except by chance- devs confirmed it was written too early for that level of coordination.
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Funny thing is, this hobby attracts an outsized number of people on the spectrum, and "you can't buy a ball because no book tells me how much it costs" is exactly something such a person can say to you without any malice or deficit of intellect involved.
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Funny thing is, this hobby attracts an outsized number of people on the spectrum, and "you can't buy a ball because no book tells me how much it costs" is exactly something such a person can say to you without any malice or deficit of intellect involved.
I agree in general. But as I said above, as far as I know I have NEVER encountered a GM who is THAT limiting in all my PF1, Starfinder and PF2 career. A ball is just TOO mundane to trigger that.
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A ball is just TOO mundane to trigger that.
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Funny thing is, this hobby attracts an outsized number of people on the spectrum, and "you can't buy a ball because no book tells me how much it costs" is exactly something such a person can say to you without any malice or deficit of intellect involved.
Hey, I resemble that remark. Don't resent it though.
Rules are important.
In extreme cases, it is useful to explain that as a GM, improvising rules is itself a rule. Also having baseline rules such as 'any item costs 3cp as long as it cannot be used for any in-combat or out-of-combat advantage.
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"Hey guys, there's a slope here."
*Throws down some marbles or a ball* (depending on how smooth or rough the terrain is).
Not sure I would go for that one. Hampering Snare costs 3gp and a skill feat.
Unless you are just having fun rolling a ball down a hill for the LOLs. In that case, go for it.
"Oh no! The wizard is drowning!
*Tosses the ball as a flotation device*
Sounds like Aid on the swim check.
"How are we going to distract the guard?"
*Tosses ball over yonder to make noise.*
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So yeah, I can see the point that the item is a waste of ink from a game mechanics perspective. But its usefulness is in reminding people that this is also a game that is supposed to be fun - that characters and story are more than just game mechanics.
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Funny thing is, this hobby attracts an outsized number of people on the spectrum, and "you can't buy a ball because no book tells me how much it costs" is exactly something such a person can say to you without any malice or deficit of intellect involved.I agree in general. But as I said above, as far as I know I have NEVER encountered a GM who is THAT limiting in all my PF1, Starfinder and PF2 career. A ball is just TOO mundane to trigger that.
To you that's limiting, to them it's being able to move solely within safely defined parameters of reality without exposing themselves to uncertainty and being forced to be spontaneously improvisational, a situation that such people avoid at all costs.
I've played with such people. They remembered the entirety of published Golarion lore and would spend days at Ask James Jacobs thread poking JJ about obscure setting information. They would tell me that I can't buy something because Ultimate Equipment doesn't list that. The moment such thing was published in a future book down the road, I could buy it.
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To be clear though, those descriptions don't describe all people on the Autism Spectrum. I am Autistic and am a great deal more flexible than that. This is why it is called a spectrum.
Well, sure, but this book wasn't going to be able to solve that problem anyway except by chance- devs confirmed it was written too early for that level of coordination.I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.You've totally missed my point. I LOVE items that are quirky and don't have mechanical benefits. So, I'd love, for example, to be able to buy a wind up soldier on a horse that could move for a minute when set down on a table (note, don't have the book right now so I have no clue if that is already in the book). Or a plush cat that purrs when you stroke it.
But those are things that I can NOT just assume are in the world without GM input. I can't just say that I've got them and expect every PFS GM to nod their head that they agree.
But a ball? It would have to be an exceedingly strict GM (so strict that I don't think that I've ever met one) to say "No, you can't have a ball".
I also want quirky things that somebody ELSE has thought up for me since they'll likely think of something that I didn't.
THAT is what I want the space in the toy store section used for. Quirky magical or non magical toys. NOT for things that give me mechanical benefits. And not for things that are just too mundane to bother with.
With more page space given tattoos it definitely could have. There's a tattoo shop after all. Here's hoping they're in the Absalom book somewhere.
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The thing is page space isn't the main tradeoff, it is staff hours and design space. If you don't include the ball, you aren't getting a magic tattoo in exchange as that requires a lot more work to design.
Writing "its a ball, it has light bulk and costs 3 copper" doesn't really cost you much time or thought.
An item that actually does stuff that helps in an encounter requires you to think about it and probably get other designers to look at it and check to see if it interacts with things and to make sure the rules elements are correctly worded.
I have seen Paizo been pretty flexible with word/page counts - some books end up with more pages because there is stuff they want to squeeze in.
What they are less flexible with is deadlines and staff hours.
I often argue against things people want by saying that whatever it is has to be worth more than what other things they could do instead - but this is in reference to time and staff hours - an extra entry in a table isn't that big a deal.
I could write 100 items similar to the ball in 45 minutes without anyone really needing to double check it except for proofing purposes, while a single magical tattoo would probably take 10-15 minutes to conceive of and write, and someone else 10 minutes to look over to double check that it is balanced and correctly worded.
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A ball is just TOO mundane to trigger that.Nothing is too mundane.
Or what about LOG! It's better than bad, it's good! (Now I want a log/stick as an item, that isn't just club/staff)
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The thing is page space isn't the main tradeoff, it is staff hours and design space. If you don't include the ball, you aren't getting a magic tattoo in exchange as that requires a lot more work to design.
Writing "its a ball, it has light bulk and costs 3 copper" doesn't really cost you much time or thought.
An item that actually does stuff that helps in an encounter requires you to think about it and probably get other designers to look at it and check to see if it interacts with things and to make sure the rules elements are correctly worded.
I have seen Paizo been pretty flexible with word/page counts - some books end up with more pages because there is stuff they want to squeeze in.
What they are less flexible with is deadlines and staff hours.
I often argue against things people want by saying that whatever it is has to be worth more than what other things they could do instead - but this is in reference to time and staff hours - an extra entry in a table isn't that big a deal.
I could write 100 items similar to the ball in 45 minutes without anyone really needing to double check it except for proofing purposes, while a single magical tattoo would probably take 10-15 minutes to conceive of and write, and someone else 10 minutes to look over to double check that it is balanced and correctly worded.
I've seen Paizo say they had to cut things due to page limitations but never due to what you're describing. Not saying what you're pointing out isn't true, but merely relaying what I've seen/heard.
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I've seen Paizo say they had to cut things due to page limitations but never due to what you're describing. Not saying what you're pointing out isn't true, but merely relaying what I've seen/heard.
I have seen both, but have seen deadlines come up a lot more than page count, and have seen page counts get padded out but haven't seen any deadlines extended.
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Not sure if this adds any context, but this line might:
For Lost Omens: Grand Bazaar, rather than write for myself, I wrote for my children. I wrote the toy shop, Merrygleam, its quirky shopkeep Ozi and her found family, and the toys and other goodies you’ll find inside.
It felt like a pretty good reminder that this is a game played by a lot of different people for a lot of different reasons. Saying that certain content isn't up to printing standards does seem to forget that other people exist in this gaming space and sometimes those people are little kids opening up their first Pathfinder book.
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I'm in this camp too. I don't need a book to tell me that balls exist in Golarion and can be bought at toy shops. It's great flavor but considering that every page that goes to this is a page lost to something I believe to be more useful I'd rather see these sorts of things left out. Considering Tattoo Artist is a non-functional feat due to lacking level 1 and level 2 tattoos this is additionally disappointing.Some people really don't like things that don't have a tangible mechanical benefit. Some do. But nixing them completely doesn't mean that now we have an extra page of weapons, magic spells, or monsters.You've totally missed my point. I LOVE items that are quirky and don't have mechanical benefits. So, I'd love, for example, to be able to buy a wind up soldier on a horse that could move for a minute when set down on a table (note, don't have the book right now so I have no clue if that is already in the book). Or a plush cat that purrs when you stroke it.
But those are things that I can NOT just assume are in the world without GM input. I can't just say that I've got them and expect every PFS GM to nod their head that they agree.
But a ball? It would have to be an exceedingly strict GM (so strict that I don't think that I've ever met one) to say "No, you can't have a ball".
I also want quirky things that somebody ELSE has thought up for me since they'll likely think of something that I didn't.
THAT is what I want the space in the toy store section used for. Quirky magical or non magical toys. NOT for things that give me mechanical benefits. And not for things that are just too mundane to bother with.
The problem is with tatoos then. The ball has nothing to do with it.
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If we're going to have a game with granular gear like mugs, chalk, waterskins, and sacks in it, I really like having things like balls and pinwheels and waffle irons to make the minutiae fun and colorful. I don't think any of these items are necessarily more useful than each other in my campaigns, I'm just as likely to assume a player has a sack as I am to assume they have a ball when they think it adds to the scene. But having those neat little toys added in if anyone wants to do things. Also for a few urban warehouse scenes I've created, having trivial gear like balls to fill crates and benchmark against would've been neat. I like the ball.