Behold the Unknown!: Welcome to the Thaumaturge Playtest

[Mark Seifter]

Hi everyone!

I'm super pumped to come along with you on the thaumaturge class playtest, the second new class for Pathfinder 2nd edition. I'm looking forward to the strange connections we will draw together!

I have a request: Right now a lot is happening, and last time I asked this from back to back playtest and it worked great so let's try it again. I need your help to make sure I can keep up with all the great feedback you have. The summoner playtest was filled with gems of incredible feedback but buried in a few repetitive discussion topics. So I'd like to ask that we try to focus on new playtest experiences, analyses, reactions, and ideas, rather than get too distracted in lengthy debates with other playtesters or re-iterating a point we've already made in other threads. It can be very tempting to do so, but I guarantee you that I read and thoroughly digest playtest results and new analyses (if I can find them amidst the other posts) while I skip repeat posts, so if your intended audience is the designers, repeating your message is not helping your case. It might particularly seem challenging when a new playtester makes a point again that you've already seen before, perhaps in a new thread, to come back into that thread to reiterate your own opinion, and perhaps instead of doing so (in either support or disagreement), we can post a reply thanking the playtester and linking to the prior discussion in case they want to see some support or counterpoints there.

To help me find things, I'm also going to create a new thread for you to post links to new playtest posts or analyses, and I need your help to build it. If you see one, drop a link in that thread. I will be moderating out any post to that thread other than such links, so it can be a nice place for us all to check together to find something new.

I can't wait to work together with you to make the thaumaturge even cooler. Behold the unknown!

This is also the place for special announcements to look out for, so watch this space.

[Archetype of Greg]

I am wondering if any inspiration was taken form the web novels Pale/Pact. Regardless this looks like the best way to play a practitioner outside the dedicated system.

[Shinigami02]

Archetype of Greg wrote:

I am wondering if any inspiration was taken form the web novels Pale/Pact. Regardless this looks like the best way to play a practitioner outside the dedicated system.

Oh cool, I'm not the only one thinking it. Especially running into the idea of claiming a Demesne, not a common term these days.

[AnimatedPaper]

From a flavor standpoint, I’m a little curious why the classic tarot/elemental symbols of sword, pentacle, cup, and wand were used, instead of the hammer, key, book, crown, star, and shield of the harrow deck.

Not a deal breaker for me, but it does stand out.

[KingTreyIII]

Initial impressions of the class upon first read-through:

Was not expecting a frontliner, but I’m not necessarily complaining that that’s what I got.

It seems like a lot of the thaumaturge feats are just reimplemented archetypes, like Talisman Dabbler or Scroll Trickster. This seems…odd to me. If a player wanted to go that route, why wouldn’t they just, you know, take the archetype? The only reason I could see for taking the thaumaturge “Scroll Trickster” feats opposed to the actual archetype is that the former allows you to actually Cast the Spells, as opposed to the latter’s reliance on Trick Magic Item.

I would recommend changing the working in Find Flaw to “You can use Esoteric Antithesis as a free action” as opposed to “without spending an additional action.” It just feels more consistent with the nomenclature of the game.

Love Thaumaturge’s Investiture. 100% in-theme with the class. Do not get rid of that.

My main concern is that the class feels like it’ll out-damage the barbarian on paper. Implement Empowerment does limit them to using one-handed weapons, but even then it almost feels too much. In an easy-to-accomplish ideal scenario, the thaumaturge at 1st level could deal 1d8+8 (+4 Str. [assuming Voluntary Flaw, which is allowed in PFS], +2 Implement Empowerment, +2 weakness from Esoteric Antithesis). This does get it close to the barbarian ideal of 1d12+10 (+4 Str., +6 rage) with giant instinct, but at level 20 that gets to (for the thaumaturge) 4d8+33 (4d8 weapon with runes, +7 Str., +8 Implement Empowerment, +6 greater weapon specialization, +12 Esoteric Antithesis weakness) vs the giant barbarian’s 4d12+31 (+7 Str., +18 rage, +6 greater weapon specialization). Which…now that I’m looking at those numbers aren’t super far away from each other; the thaumaturge’s being about in-line with a fury barbarian. And factor in the fact that thaumaturge’s don’t have Strength as a key ability score…huh. Well, i guess this is just a bunch of number crunching in this paragraph, then, as opposed to a proper point beyond thaumaturge’s using the barbarian chassis for damage output.

Thaumaturges with a weapon implement get an objectively better Disrupt Prey at level 1, which combined with the barbarian-esque damage output…yikes. Maybe tone that down a bit?

Overall, the thaumaturge seems to be an interesting blend between barbarian and ranger, while still feeling really unique. Unlike other folks, I’m actually in favor of keeping the thaumaturge’s key ability Charisma, because we already have an Int.-based non-spellcaster in the investigator.

[Shinigami02]

KingTreyIII wrote:

My main concern is that the class feels like it’ll out-damage the barbarian on paper. Implement Empowerment does limit them to using one-handed weapons, but even then it almost feels too much. In an easy-to-accomplish ideal scenario, the thaumaturge at 1st level could deal 1d8+8 (+4 Str. [assuming Voluntary Flaw, which is allowed in PFS], +2 Implement Empowerment, +2 weakness from Esoteric Antithesis)

How are you getting 18 Strength at level 1? Yeah Voluntary Flaw is a thing, but last I checked it only applies on the Ancestry step and can't double down, so you still can't go higher than a 16 since your Class boost is to Charisma.

EDIT: On further reading it looks like you did catch that later. Yeah, the implement bonus seems like it's to make up for that as much as the one-handed weapons.

[Squiggit]

Thaumaturges have good damage with everything rolling, but it's a big omission to ignore that the thaumaturge needs to spend 1-2 actions per enemy to turn it on, needs to invest a lot of skill increases to make that check more reliable, gets nothing if they crit fail the check and (a little counterintuitively) can only take limited advantage of a monster's weaknesses if they have any... while also being generally a bit more MAD.

[Golurkcanfly]

Wait, what happens when you combine Esoteric Antithesis with weapons with damaging property runes?

Are the additional damage instances from the property runes counted as part of your Strike? If so, doesn't that cause them to also gain the benefit of the Esoteric Antithesis weakness?

[Shinigami02]

I'm pretty sure a given Weakness can only trigger once for a given strike, unless specifically excepted like the extra Weakness damage of the Twin Weakness feat.

[OmegaZ]

In addition to the implements' Initiate Benefit, how about a passive bonus of some kind that's active as long as you're holding that implement?

For example: the Amulet could give a bonus to saving throws equal to half your level (minimum +1).

[Shinigami02]

there's no way we'd get a bonus to any checks that large, even a +5 in this system would be insane, let alone a +10.

[Gaulin]

I do think that a lot of people don't adjust recall knowledge dcs for rarity. In my experience a lot of bosses are unique, which is a +10 to the dc. Add onto that a probable higher level, and recall knowledge isn't all that easy with boss monsters. That's one of the things that makes me a little wary of RK being so fundamental to how well the class does. Maybe a feat that negates the increased dc from rarity or something?

[Salamileg]

Gaulin wrote:

I do think that a lot of people don't adjust recall knowledge dcs for rarity. In my experience a lot of bosses are unique, which is a +10 to the dc. Add onto that a probable higher level, and recall knowledge isn't all that easy with boss monsters. That's one of the things that makes me a little wary of RK being so fundamental to how well the class does. Maybe a feat that negates the increased dc from rarity or something?

It's certainly not RAW, maybe RAI though, but I use recall knowledge against unique creatures a bit differently. Say the boss in question is a unique red dragon. Are you rolling to see how much you know about red dragons? I don't add the +10, even if the boss is the only red dragon in the area. Are you rolling to see what makes this boss different than other red dragons (like, perhaps if it's a spellcaster). Then I add the +10.

[Xenocrat]

Shinigami02 wrote:

I'm pretty sure a given Weakness can only trigger once for a given strike, unless specifically excepted like the extra Weakness damage of the Twin Weakness feat.

It’s per “instance.@ it’s unclear if elemental runes are the same as the weapon damage itself. It matters for the Magus in a big way how many times they can trigger an elemental weakness.

[Golurkcanfly]

I have a couple specific pieces of feedback that I can't quite fit into other topics:

1) Implements are rather dry. The various primarily increase the power of the initial granted ability, rather than granting new abilities. This makes the class feel less like a large box of a variety tools to use at a given moment and more like a small box of different hammers. Feats to that interact with specific implements might help.

2) Weapon choice is very restrictive. RAW, anything other than a 1-handed weapon is actively detrimental to the class since the various action economy workarounds only specify weapons wielded in one hand. While this is acceptable for the Swashbuckler, as it is based upon the fantasy of a particular fighting style, it is frustrating for the Thaumaturge. Different fighting styles could have different feats for more support.

3) Too few "generic" class feats. If you're going for a very particular flavor, then great, you have something perfect. But if you don't have one of a few very specific flavors, you don't have much to choose from. The best example of this are the Pact Feats, which could be made into Contract Magic Items (which they are already incredibly similar to), then giving the Thaumaturge feats which interact with those Contracts in unique ways. This allows the Thaumaturge not only access to those Pacts, but lets them interact with the Contracts already printed.

4) Has to play "catch-up" with Knowledge skills. While the bonus increases to the four knowledge skills are helpful, they feel both insubstantial and inelegant when it comes to making the class keep up with the numbers game when using Find Flaws, especially when you factor in Uncommon, Rare, or Unique creatures. A feature that lets them have a minimum proficiency when using Find Flaws (probably capping out at Master) would be excellent, as it allows for both specialization (since a given Thaumaturge could specialize in different skills for more bonuses in combat) and branching out.

5) Has more relative value against foes without weaknesses than foes with weaknesses. The class does not sell itself well against creatures that it should, thematically, be best against since it primarily creates weaknesses, rather than exploiting them. That fiend weak to a weapons dipped in angel's blood? You gain less relative value using Esoteric Antithesis against it than you would against a bandit or giant with no existing weaknesses.

[Physicskid42]

3) Too few "generic" class feats. If you're going for a very particular flavor, then great, you have something perfect. But if you don't have one of a few very specific flavors, you don't have much to choose from. The best example of this are the Pact Feats, which could be made into Contract Magic Items (which they are already incredibly similar to), then giving the Thaumaturge feats which interact with those Contracts in unique ways. This allows the Thaumaturge not only access to those Pacts, but lets them interact with the Contracts already printed.

I don't agree with this at all. The best part of this class is all the weird feats. In general, I think that 2E's biggest flaw is that too many class feats are "generic." The high lights are things like the Barbarian's earthquake and the Witch's walking house. They may be mechanically weak but I don't care.

[Golurkcanfly]

Physicskid42 wrote:

3) Too few "generic" class feats. If you're going for a very particular flavor, then great, you have something perfect. But if you don't have one of a few very specific flavors, you don't have much to choose from. The best example of this are the Pact Feats, which could be made into Contract Magic Items (which they are already incredibly similar to), then giving the Thaumaturge feats which interact with those Contracts in unique ways. This allows the Thaumaturge not only access to those Pacts, but lets them interact with the Contracts already printed.

I don't agree with this at all. The best part of this class is all the weird feats. In general, I think that 2E's biggest flaw is that too many class feats are "generic." The high lights are things like the Barbarian's earthquake and the Witch's walking house. They may be mechanically weak but I don't care.

Well, imagine if those feats were the only ones you had access to. That removes the "uniqueness" of those feats entirely, since they are now generic. Filling a class up with too many hyperspecific feats greatly limits ideas that are not supported by those hyperspecific feats.

[KingTreyIII]

Completely unrelated to the thaumaturge:

Shinigami02 wrote:

How are you getting 18 Strength at level 1? Yeah Voluntary Flaw is a thing, but last I checked it only applies on the Ancestry step and can't double down, so you still can't go higher than a 16 since your Class boost is to Charisma.

I've...never read the Voluntary Flaw rule like that. Like, ever. Even so, whether you can or can't get an 18 in an ability that isn't your key ability score at level 1 is mostly irrelevant; it's a difference of 1 in the math, which barely affects the point I was making.

[Sagiam]

Exceedingly off-topic response to the post above:

Voluntary flaws wrote:

Sometimes, it’s fun to play a character with a major flaw even if you’re not playing an ancestry that imposes one. You can elect to take two additional ability flaws when applying the ability boosts and ability flaws from your ancestry. If you do, you can also apply one additional free ability boost. These ability flaws can be assigned to any ability score you like, but you can’t apply more than one ability flaw to the same ability score during this step unless you apply both of the additional ability flaws to a score that is already receiving an ability boost during this step. In this case, the first ability flaw cancels the ability boost, and the second ability flaw decreases the score by 2. Likewise, as an exception to the normal rules for ability boosts, you can apply two free ability boosts to an ability score receiving an ability flaw during this step; the first ability boost cancels the ability flaw, and the second ability boost increases the score by 2. For example, a dwarf normally gets an ability boost to Constitution and Wisdom, along with an ability flaw to Charisma. You could apply one ability flaw each to Intelligence and Strength, or you could apply both ability flaws to Wisdom. You could not apply either additional ability flaw to Charisma, though, because it is already receiving dwarves’ ability flaw during this step.

Emphasis' are all mine. Basically, the voluntary flaws happens during the ancestry step, and a cardinal rule is you can never apply a +4 or -4 during a step, unless there is already a penalty or bonus respectively. Voluntary flaws are a way to have a Sprite Barbarian with an 18 Str, not a way to start with two 18 stats.

[Sagiam]

Another, slightly less off-topic response to KingTreyIII's post:

KingTreyIII wrote:

Even so, whether you can or can't get an 18 in an ability that isn't your key ability score at level 1 is mostly irrelevant; it's a difference of 1 in the math, which barely affects the point I was making.

It affects more than you'd think. It's a drop in the bucket for the damage calculation, but you still have to hit, and since you can't start with an 18 in your attack stat, you'll functionally have a -1 to your attack roll from levels 1-4, 10-14, and 20, compared to the Barbarian or Ranger.

[Golurkcanfly]

I should add that the class could benefit more from being able to interact with magic items in unique ways. Like a Feat that lets you use your Wand Implement as an actual wand, letting the player choose a fitting spell for their wand's origin.

Stuff for the implements in general could be implemented (pun intended) this way as either features or optional feats, such as a Chalice that can fill itself with a potion each day, or a Lantern that can replicate spells with the Light trait, or a Weapon with an extra property rune.

There's precedent for this stuff in the Champion's Blade Ally, too.

And on another separate note, being able to change one or two Implements daily (one primary Implement you stick with and two flexible Implements???) would also contribute to the feel of the class pulling from a vast repertoire of trinkets and curios to solve problems.

[Golurkcanfly]

Some more notes I've gathered regarding other elements of the class:

1) Talisman Feat chain feels spread too thin. Could probably be condensed into two feats instead of three or have additional benefits besides making more talismans.

2) Scroll Feats are super fun, but the action economy is really rough. The Thaumaturge already gets ways to cheat on the action economy when it comes to rummaging through their things between Esoteric Antithesis, swapping implements, and Handy Esoterica. They should also get the benefit when it comes to pulling out their scrolls quickly. If I invest half of my class feats into this one thing, I'd like to be able to use it in combat in conjunction with the rest of my kit.

3) The Chalice Implement's Adept Benefit really pushes it towards blood specifically rather than the more flexible "healing liquid" described in the flavor text

4) Not having the ability to swap implements around daily betrays the flavor of "having the right tool for the job" since you're practically married to your choices. Some way to change implements outside of retraining during downtime, either as a core feature or a feat, would help sell the "bag of tricks" feeling of the class more.

[Ligraph]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

2) Scroll Feats are super fun, but the action economy is really rough. The Thaumaturge already gets ways to cheat on the action economy when it comes to rummaging through their things between Esoteric Antithesis, swapping implements, and Handy Esoterica. They should also get the benefit when it comes to pulling out their scrolls quickly. If I invest half of my class feats into this one thing, I'd like to be able to use it in combat in conjunction with the rest of my kit.

Seconding this. I think it would be cool if it was tied to an implement, maybe a scroll case implement that lets you cast any scrolls in it, or have Wand let you cast any scrolls you are carrying (although that seems a bit OP with what wand has now).

[Golurkcanfly]

The more I look over this class, the more I'm finding that it's torn between being Ranger/Investigator/Mastermind Rogue No. 4 with Find Flaws and Esoteric Antithesis and its entirely unique Implements.

I think I might prefer refocusing the class significantly more on the Implements, providing more detailed ones with more customization, and possibly lean more into the magic item equivalent of the Alchemist, which has no similar class, getting those Talisman and Scroll creation feats as core features instead of feat lines.

It could certainly get something similar to FF/EA, but maybe taking up less focus/power budget or being entirely optional.

Plus, this would make the class feel more about having a bunch of tools for the right job like its flavor describes, since it begins to matter what tools you bring (with room for flexibility like with a Quick Alchemy feature) rather than having less net benefit if you are prepared. It also better justifies CHA as a key ability score, since you don't have that Recall Knowledge/study focus.

This can also address other issues with the current design such as:

1) Needing to play keep-up with skills just to stay on curve
2) Being severely MAD
3) The various features of the class not necessarily connecting (half the Implements don't care about the FF/EA features at all)
4) Many progression systems in the class (Implement upgrades and talisman/scroll feat chains) being purely power increases instead of power and versatility

[graystone]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

2) Scroll Feats are super fun, but the action economy is really rough. The Thaumaturge already gets ways to cheat on the action economy when it comes to rummaging through their things between Esoteric Antithesis, swapping implements, and Handy Esoterica. They should also get the benefit when it comes to pulling out their scrolls quickly. If I invest half of my class feats into this one thing, I'd like to be able to use it in combat in conjunction with the rest of my kit.

Steal the Magus feat Striker's Scroll and modify it to work with an implement instead. That way you just tape a temp scroll to each implement and then use the existing swap rule to pull the implement with the right scroll attached.

[Golurkcanfly]

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

2) Scroll Feats are super fun, but the action economy is really rough. The Thaumaturge already gets ways to cheat on the action economy when it comes to rummaging through their things between Esoteric Antithesis, swapping implements, and Handy Esoterica. They should also get the benefit when it comes to pulling out their scrolls quickly. If I invest half of my class feats into this one thing, I'd like to be able to use it in combat in conjunction with the rest of my kit.

Steal the Magus feat Striker's Scroll and modify it to work with an implement instead. That way you just tape a temp scroll to each implement and then use the existing swap rule to pull the implement with the right scroll attached.

Doesn't the current free swap only work when activating? Seems a little funky instead of just letting them treat scrolls as Implements for the sake of that feature, or altering the feature to work with more things than just Implements.

[graystone]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Doesn't the current free swap only work when activating?

Yeah, but it's easy enough to add a part in the new feat that it also counts for activating attached scrolls.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Seems a little funky instead of just letting them treat scrolls as Implements for the sake of that feature, or altering the feature to work with more things than just Implements.

It means you use the scroll, have an implement in hand AND a hand free or a second implement out. You're already juggling 3 implements so this doesn't add in even more individual objects that require their own hands to use.

[Golurkcanfly]

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Doesn't the current free swap only work when activating?

Yeah, but it's easy enough to add a part in the new feat that it also counts for activating attached scrolls.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Seems a little funky instead of just letting them treat scrolls as Implements for the sake of that feature, or altering the feature to work with more things than just Implements.

It means you use the scroll, have an implement in hand AND a hand free or a second implement out. You're already juggling 3 implements so this doesn't add in even more individual objects that require their own hands to use.

It's moreso that attaching a scroll to say, a Lantern, feels thematically incongruous if the scroll in question doesn't utilize the Lantern in some way.

[graystone]

Golurkcanfly wrote:

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Doesn't the current free swap only work when activating?

Yeah, but it's easy enough to add a part in the new feat that it also counts for activating attached scrolls.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Seems a little funky instead of just letting them treat scrolls as Implements for the sake of that feature, or altering the feature to work with more things than just Implements.

It means you use the scroll, have an implement in hand AND a hand free or a second implement out. You're already juggling 3 implements so this doesn't add in even more individual objects that require their own hands to use.

It's moreso that attaching a scroll to say, a Lantern, feels thematically incongruous if the scroll in question doesn't utilize the Lantern in some way.

*shrug* it's as thematic as the person using it: take the lantern and say "you raise the lantern and the light shines through the scroll and the words from the scroll dance in the air" or "the scroll glows brighter until it bursts into flames", IE you cast the spell. Or it you could say you're adding something to the scroll and/or removing something to activate it, like 'you run a finger along the edge of the scroll and the blood activates the scroll'. IMO, you can add whatever fluff you want to match whatever theme you want. IMO, my suggestion isn't that thematically different than juggling more items with the existing ability and is more appealing to me.

[Golurkcanfly]

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

graystone wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Doesn't the current free swap only work when activating?

Yeah, but it's easy enough to add a part in the new feat that it also counts for activating attached scrolls.

Golurkcanfly wrote:

Seems a little funky instead of just letting them treat scrolls as Implements for the sake of that feature, or altering the feature to work with more things than just Implements.

It means you use the scroll, have an implement in hand AND a hand free or a second implement out. You're already juggling 3 implements so this doesn't add in even more individual objects that require their own hands to use.

It's moreso that attaching a scroll to say, a Lantern, feels thematically incongruous if the scroll in question doesn't utilize the Lantern in some way.

*shrug* it's as thematic as the person using it: take the lantern and say "you raise the lantern and the light shines through the scroll and the words from the scroll dance in the air" or "the scroll glows brighter until it bursts into flames", IE you cast the spell. Or it you could say you're adding something to the scroll and/or removing something to activate it, like 'you run a finger along the edge of the scroll and the blood activates the scroll'. IMO, you can add whatever fluff you want to match whatever theme you want. IMO, my suggestion isn't that thematically different than juggling more items with the existing ability and is more appealing to me.

I think I'd make that particular flavor optional, then. It can feel really incongruent to have spell scrolls with no thematic ties attached to an implement.

[pixierose]

I don't think it's any more jarring then tying a scroll to a weapon.

it's less that scroll and lamp have strong connection, and more so the Thamaturge is amazing at consolidating space for the things that he needs. It's always just a hand grab away, I suppose.

That being said I don't need this particular mechanic. But It would be neat.

[Dubious Scholar]

As a one-off thing, the Wand implement's persistent damage on fire feels like it may need to scale a bit so it doesn't fall behind as you keep leveling.

[Golurkcanfly]

pixierose wrote:

I don't think it's any more jarring then tying a scroll to a weapon.

it's less that scroll and lamp have strong connection, and more so the Thamaturge is amazing at consolidating space for the things that he needs. It's always just a hand grab away, I suppose.

That being said I don't need this particular mechanic. But It would be neat.

Tying a scroll to a weapon as a Magus makes sense, considering that they always channel magic through that weapon.

But the Thaum's flavor is only getting effects when things make enough sense. Like you only get to heal from that healing juice cup, not from the sharp stick.

Quickdrawing scrolls just feels a bit cleaner and could be built into Scroll Esoterica.

[Verzen]

After trying out the class, I honestly think active implements needs a little more oumph. Wand and Chalice are under tuned...

[Squiggit]

Verzen wrote:

After trying out the class, I honestly think active implements needs a little more oumph. Wand and Chalice are under tuned...

My player kinda liked chalice at low levels. It's not much but you can spam out that THP every turn which ends up being a nice buffer, especially since the Thaumaturge is incredibly squishy. Could maybe be a bit higher but it seems useful.

The adept power feels pretty niche though.

Wand definitely feels on the low side to me. It scales like a cantrip except cantrips are intentionally not great because they're backup options for full casters and the thaumaturge isn't one of those... Until you get your Adept benefit it pretty much just is a worse EA that takes up a hand, which doesn't feel like a signature ability.

[Verzen]

Squiggit wrote:

Verzen wrote:

After trying out the class, I honestly think active implements needs a little more oumph. Wand and Chalice are under tuned...

My player kinda liked chalice at low levels. It's not much but you can spam out that THP every turn which ends up being a nice buffer, especially since the Thaumaturge is incredibly squishy. Could maybe be a bit higher but it seems useful.

The adept power feels pretty niche though.

Wand definitely feels on the low side to me. It scales like a cantrip except cantrips are intentionally not great because they're backup options for full casters and the thaumaturge isn't one of those... Until you get your Adept benefit it pretty much just is a worse EA that takes up a hand, which doesn't feel like a signature ability.

Ya. I DO like the paragon benefit for wand though. 10 foot burst is always neat for a reusable. Too bad it's at a level where people are casting Wish...

[Golurkcanfly]

Had some recent thoughts on the Thaumaturge.

The class could have its action economy "cheats" when it comes to stowing/drawing items consolidated and clarified, possibly into the Esoterica Feature. Make stowing items in your Esoterica a free action, have Features/Feats that cheat the action economy have the items in question as part of your Esoterica, and then have those feats specify how many actions it takes to pull that thing from your Esoterica.

Not only does this clean up some mess (can't swap Implements if you're two-handing an Implement or your hand is full of your other tools), but can be referenced in other feats now and in the future, like the Scroll Esoterica feat has the Scrolls as part of your Esoterica, and could say you pull them out of the Esoterica as a free action when casting from the Scroll. Or you could have a feat that lets you Affix a Talisman from your Esoterica in a single action.

An example of an entirely new feat that could reference the Esoterica would be something that lets the user pull out an existing item that they own that's in their Esoterica that relates to the target's weakness when using Esoteric Antithesis. For example, you could use Esoteric Antithesis against a Troll and this feat would let you pull out an Alchemist's Fire as a free action.

[Firebeard92]

Verzen wrote:

After trying out the class, I honestly think active implements needs a little more oumph. Wand and Chalice are under tuned...

I suggested this elsewhere, but I think that the Chalice could have a third option (fitting since 3 seems to be an important number) to Fill the Chalice. Targeting a creature you’ve identified with EA. Basic Fortitude against X negative damage with the Chalice filling on a failure, allowing it to be drained again.

[Squiggit]

This class is very weak. I know there's been a design choice at Paizo to make classes conservatively but the Thaumaturge is kind of next level right now.

There's been a lot of talk here about changing the mental attribute to make it less MAD, or nerfing Esoteric Antithesis in order to provide more options elsewhere.

And while those two things might be reasonable changes on their own, I hope it doesn't distract too much from just how genuinely underpowered the Thaumaturge is across the board. The class is very MAD, has a weak chassis, implement abilities are mostly very conservative and do little to define your playstyle...

And, honestly, for all the fuss people have given about how much EA influences the Thaumaturge's power budget... EA isn't even very good either. It gives you rogue-like damage, which is good, but it devours your action economy and has multiple points of failure that leaves it incredibly volatile.

Which is why I'm sort of worried that the takeaway from the feedback will focus more on 'compensating' for better implements with a worse EA when really the whole class just needs to be better overall right now.

I've held off on more playtest feedback because we've been trying to find a way to make the class click better... but to be entirely real the past three or so attempts to use the class in game have mostly consisted of the thaumaturge failing their checks against any important enemy, getting downed constantly because of their poor defenses (low hp, bad saves, MAD), generally doing nothing interesting with their implements and way too many characters that all happen to be scrollmasters for bestiary scholar.

In combat it struggles with its poor defenses, mediocre offensive capabilities and surprisingly limited utility (something that imo should be where the THM shines).
In investigations it struggles because it had little innate investigative utility (despite the heavy monster hunter trappings) and Find Flaws only works for Monster ID, which makes them oddly deficient when investigating cults or old ruins or anything.
In social situations they're surprisingly mediocre. Despite the Cha primary, the class struggles to find the time to invest in all the skills it wants. At low levels that doesn't matter much, but at higher and higher levels the difficulty you have in pushing your social skills to higher tiers of proficiency starts to show.

Honestly the class could probably use the Rogue's skill increase progression or something close to it (though it doesn't really need the skill feat progression).

[The Raven Black]

I am building a 14th level Thaumaturge with key dedications that boost (directly or indirectly) the RK check : Pathfinder Agent, Scrollmaster and Alchemist. The Pathfinder Agent really helps with the skills. And the whole build really boosts Find Flaws. But all of that should not be that required.

Note that FF applying only to a creature you can see is yet another weak point for the ability. Basically, it makes Greater Darkvision really enticing.

So Fetchling for the double win of 1. sneaking on your opponents and 2. actually seeing them.

[Lanathar]

The Raven Black wrote:

I am building a 14th level Thaumaturge with key dedications that boost (directly or indirectly) the RK check : Pathfinder Agent, Scrollmaster and Alchemist. The Pathfinder Agent really helps with the skills. And the whole build really boosts Find Flaws. But all of that should not be that required.

Note that FF applying only to a creature you can see is yet another weak point for the ability. Basically, it makes Greater Darkvision really enticing.

So Fetchling for the double win of 1. sneaking on your opponents and 2. actually seeing them.

So you can’t research enemy flaws in advance? That seems … flawed

There is how a familiar ability that will help with knowledge. Might gobble up too much action economy. And an item from grand bazaar that at early levels only works with lore

[The Raven Black]

Lanathar wrote:

The Raven Black wrote:

I am building a 14th level Thaumaturge with key dedications that boost (directly or indirectly) the RK check : Pathfinder Agent, Scrollmaster and Alchemist. The Pathfinder Agent really helps with the skills. And the whole build really boosts Find Flaws. But all of that should not be that required.

Note that FF applying only to a creature you can see is yet another weak point for the ability. Basically, it makes Greater Darkvision really enticing.

So Fetchling for the double win of 1. sneaking on your opponents and 2. actually seeing them.

So you can’t research enemy flaws in advance? That seems … flawed

There is how a familiar ability that will help with knowledge. Might gobble up too much action economy. And an item from grand bazaar that at early levels only works with lore

Currently, you can only use FF with an enemy you see or that you Investigate during Exploration. The latter is very similar to the Pursue a lead Investigator ability. But of course you need to know that you are investigating your future opponent first.

I could do it once because our Barbarian had found tracks that we followed.

TBH the Investigate thing feels more like a Ranger thing to me.

[Mark Seifter]

Thanks to everyone so far for great playtest and analyses! Thanks to all that's going on with Paizo right now, I haven't had a lot of chance to comment here directly, but I have had enough time to read through everything, and I'm really impressed at how all of you have endeavored in almost all the threads to work together, discuss and brainstorm without getting into endless debates, and avoid excessive repetition, make the point, support it, and move to a new point. Thank you all so much!

[QuidEst]

Mark Seifter wrote:

Thanks to everyone so far for great playtest and analyses! Thanks to all that's going on with Paizo right now, I haven't had a lot of chance to comment here directly, but I have had enough time to read through everything, and I'm really impressed at how all of you have endeavored in almost all the threads to work together, discuss and brainstorm without getting into endless debates, and avoid excessive repetition, make the point, support it, and move to a new point. Thank you all so much!

Thanks for taking the time to stop by and have a read through, even with everything going on! I'm really excited for this class, and I'm looking forward to the improvements that'll go into it in the future.

[phaeton_nz]

Since the Wand Implement slowly absorbs magic from it's surroundings, how much time must pass between usages of 'Fling Magic'?

[The Raven Black]

Zero by RAW, but it being 2 actions means it will be once a round at most.

[The Raven Black]

The Raven Black wrote:

Zero by RAW, but it being 2 actions means it will be once a round at most.

And I am now thinking the Wand could rather give access to Evocation spells so that this ability could benefit from all the mechanics we already have for spells.

Since there are 8 schools of Magic and 9 Implements, maybe we could have a Class archetype that would be all about using Implements to access spells with an Implement/school of magic association.

Wasn't that how the PF1 Occultist worked ?

[Mark Seifter]

With the playtest over, I'd like to thank everyone for playtesting the thaumaturge and for doing a great job articulating your ideas, generating playtest data, and just in general getting along with each other and exploring so many cool ideas and insights. This has been a particularly tumultuous time at Paizo, and the way you all handled this was incredible and extremely helpful to me. Thank you! I have so many great ideas for ways to make the class even better thanks to you. Time to retreat to my workshop and get started on that!

[The Raven Black]

Hi Mark and so many thanks for your involvement and excellent work, and your great character too.

Do you think we will have a survey analysis later on ?

No need for a date. I just hope we will ;-)

[John R.]

The Raven Black wrote:

Hi Mark and so many thanks for your involvement and excellent work, and your great character too.

Do you think we will have a survey analysis later on ?

No need for a date. I just hope we will ;-)

The last two playtests had an analysis 2 weeks after the playtest end if that helps.