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So, I love the idea of being able to gather elements in both hands. Nearly every elemental character in media does it, whether it’s one element or more. I think a damage buff with the same element gathered in both hands could be great.

This additional damage could be Con based. With the same element gathered in both, you add Con to damage. If you have two separate elements gathered, it’s half Con. If you only have one hand with a gathered element you do not add Con.

This boosts damage for all though it has some restrictions. I really like the concept of the dual and universal gates being the “dual wielder” (specifically the dual gates) and leaving the dedicated gate as the “two handed” option.

With the other gates being able to gather separate elements in each hand opening up more flexibility, I think the dedicated gate should be able to gather element in both hands with one action and increase it’s blast die size (d6-d8 for fire, etc.) in addition to the Con damage.

This lets dedicated gates be the best with their element, as I think they should be, and boosts their damage to the point where it may help with overcoming resistances. Poor fire is gonna have a hard time if it can’t get a versatile damage.

I just got page 13

I’d really like to see some additional benefits to having an Element Gathered. Maybe you can Leap further with air gathered, gain a speed boost from fire, a bonus against trips and forced movement from earth, Step further with water gathered.

Alternatively, gain bonus to skill checks associated with the elements.
- Earth getting +1 to athletics for shove and trip and climb
- Air getting +1 to acrobatics for balance and athletics to high or long jump
- Fire getting +1 to demoralize and perform
- Water getting +1 to escape and squeeze and swim

I don’t think that Gathering an Element in each hand should be a stance. Nearly every elemental power based character I can think of does this naturally. Is having the action cost to Gather twice not enough of a cost?

Allowing Dual gates and universal gates to do so early lends itself to the fantasy. Additionally, those can (and should imo) fill the “dual wielding” role of the class.

If they Gather the same element in both hands, that should be the “two handed” role and increase the damage. That could be done by increasing the die size. I do think that dedicated gates blasts should pack a bit more of a punch than the other gates’ blasts since they lack versatility, but that could be done by a flat bonus to damage. Alternatively or in addition to, allow dedicated to Gather in both hands for a single action.

I think each element having an associated skill that you become trained in would help the skill side of the kineticist. Maybe they could get a +1 for that skill while they have the Element Gathered.

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

I was thinking of something more universal.

Something that could let us add con to damage.

Like if blast's didn't require us to gather but if when gathered we had half con to damage on blast's and overflow deals full con mod to damage.

I can get behind that. However, I do think that dedicated gates should gain some additional benefit since they lack the versatility of the others (particularly fire, since idk what alternate damage type it could have).

Firebeard92 wrote:

Squiggit wrote:

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

The dice aren't the problem. Rather we need a feature to bump damage to favourable levels.

Reasons.

1- it cuts down on the potency of poaching via dedications.

2- it can be made situationally more powerful while also being more consistent.

We have several features right now where it would be easy to tack such things on.

I don't know why we have to feat tax a entire playstyle just to better ensure a ranger can blast better than us by level 4/6.

I mentioned something for this earlier as well. It came from somewhere else, so it wasn’t my idea, but you get extra damage depending on gate selection.

What are your thoughts on that? It’s similar to the thaumaturge’s empowerment.

That supposes the ranged options are balanced the way they are because the melee options exist. Don't really see any evidence of that though.

If you think the range options are too weak, you can just say that on its own without talking about making melee builds worse.

That’s been my point for this whole post. Simplify the blast stats by making them all ranged and increasing their power. Elemental Weapon becomes able to create other melee weapon besides one handed and that becomes the melee option.

Personally I'd be quite upset if I was forced into a feat tax just to melee with this class.

You already are though, in a way. The only penalty for ranged attacks in melee is that they provoke attacks of opportunity. Currently, Elemental Blast does this even if it is melee. The only way to get around it is with the Elemental Weapon feat.

I also kind of seeing it mirroring the monk in a sense. They have to take feats for access to ranged options with their core feature FOB. Taking feats to do melee for the Kineticist seems fine to me in that sense.

If they keep the melee ranged split options like they are now, the ranged options need to be stronger than their current state. 2d4 with no modifier for air until level 7 is ridiculous. The others aren’t much better, which isn’t fun, especially when the majority of people’s fantasy for this type of class is very much range focused.

Firebeard92 wrote:

aobst128 wrote:

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I mean kineticists multiclassing to gain point blank shot or other weapon support through multiclassing rather than the other way around.

I still don’t think that this is a problem. They’d be using at least 2 feats to get that instead of something like another impulse ability, which are resourceless utility. I think it’s fair to give up that for something along those lines.

I don’t think flurry rangers should get access to agile ranged attacks that work with their ranged weapon feats.

It doesn’t look like it would since the Hunted Shot requires you to be wielding a ranged weapon. Unless Gathering and Element means you’re wielding a weapon, then it wouldn’t. Which I would lean towards it not counting.

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

That would fix the FOB conundrum but open it up for other multiclass poaching like point blank shot if they're ranged weapons rather than unarmed attacks. Not as big of a deal but maybe not ideal.

I don’t think that’s a problem at all. Everybody multiclasses to get something and being a ranged martial with blasts sounds dope. Obviously they will be good with them, but they won’t have the utility of all the other kineticist abilities without heavy investment, which is what multi class stuff is all about.

I have to imagine there is a way to.

1- not have blast's proc attack of opportunity

2- not have blast's be considered strikes eligible for furry.

But my argument was more about someone taking a kineticist dedication and being better at blast's than them. Similar to how by level ten. Most martials that took the monk dedication become better at flurry of blows them them.

My argument was not about kineticist taking monk dedication and using flurry of blows really. Though then then it's annoying that that's basically, likely, a better single Target use it their time and action economy then fusion blast or anything they can do.

Man I really wish flurry of blows had stayed monk centric.

A simple solution that I mentioned earlier is to just have the blasts be in their own weapon group, while mentioning that they still get bonuses from handwraps. It really is that simple, I think.

Personally, however, I think that the basic blasts should be ranged only. To simplify the stats of them. If they want a melee option they can take the Elemental Weapon feat, but have it changed to be more than just one handed weapons.

I don't know about making them regular attacks. It would certainly make it simpler for kineticist but if you could get these attacks through multiclassing, monks have something that outclasses wild winds at level 2. I'd rather not have to nerf the dedication to prevent that. As it stands, it would still be very good for strength monks to have a ranged option even if they can't flurry with it.

Then make them regular attacks, but not unarmed strikes. Have them be a new “weapon” group called blasts and keep the bit about them being improved via hand wraps. This would allow them to block it from being used in Flurry of Blows as well as making it an option to allow a proficiency progression faster for the Kineticist if they decide to go that route. (I’ve seen people suggest they get legendary proficiency with their blasts, not sure how I personally feel about it, but it is an opinion that’s out there.)

They may have to tweak the critical specialization for it, since each has different abilities currently. However, that could be handled pretty easily I believe.

So, further consideration left me with the following ideas.

Let the blasts be ranged unarmed attacks like I mentioned earlier, with Impulse trait to let Con be used for attack rolls after Gather Element. I think propulsive could be added to all of them and be fine.

Alter the stats of the blasts a bit along these lines if not adding propulsive to all.
- Air/ d6 slashing/ agile, air, impulse, range 90’, versatile B
- Earth/ d10 bludgeoning/ earth, forceful, impulse, propulsive, range 20’
- Fire/ d6 fire/ agile, fire, impulse, range 60’
- Water/ d8 bludgeoning/ impulse, sweep, range 30’, water

Flexible Blasts now offers additional traits to elements.
- Air- Shove and Versatile (electricity)
- Earth- Parry and Ranged Trip
- Fire- Deadly d8 and Scatter 5ft (with choice to do so)
- Water- Ranged Trip and Versatile (cold)

Elemental Weapon is now the melee route, changing it to allow only melee weapons but opening it up to 2 handed weapons as well. (Side note: I think that Kineticist should be proficient in medium armor.)

Additionally, I saw it suggested somewhere else, but I think a damage boost depending on your gate selection would help, especially if they don’t get propulsive.
- Dedicated gate gets +2 damage per damage die
- Dual gate gets +1 damage per damage die
- Universal gate gets no bonus damage.

Unicore wrote:

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

How about ranged only as default and elemental blade as the melee option? That would solve the issue os trying to balance two completely different playing styles without affecting much.

A class archetype to make melee default and getting heavy armor and shield use would then be allowed to have more power.

Ideally flexible blasting would become a part of elemental weapon to make it all just 1 feat. Instead of charging people twice.

What would you think about Flexible Blasts and Elemental Weapon combo being a feat that offers melee and options for additional traits for the blasts rather than letting the blast become an actual weapon?

Firebeard92 wrote:

Martialmasters wrote:

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

the use of your blasts without requiring gather energy would at least make the action economy way less clunky

I like Gather Element as is, but I would like ways to mitigate its action economy. Something like being able to Gather and stride or step. Also, maybe a reaction to Gather Element after an Overflow at the cost of some damage. Also, an ability to Gather Element as a free action when you roll initiative seems like it should have been available.

Being designated ranged only would be unfortunate. Flanking is the easiest way to get flat footed and it is only possible with melee attacks. I much prefer the playtest version to something that completely takes strength out of the picture for any kineticist, and make blasts harder to land.

How would you feel about an alternative, them being melee with the thrown trait?

Maybe blast's should just lose the impulse trait.

I like that they are hard coded and distinct.

As written, if they lose the impulse trait, they can’t be done at all since Gather Element just lets you do Impulse abilities. So at the very least it’ll have to be rewritten for that. But also, them being an action that isn’t a basic Strike gets weird and wordy again with abilities. When we already have language for unarmed strikes, it’s odd to exclude these when they function so similarly to other unarmed strikes.

So, as many have noticed, the elemental blast feature is a bit wordy and basically comes out to them being unarmed attacks that are not actually unarmed attacks. Also, they each have two stat blocks to represent a melee and ranged version. I appreciate the intent of this, but it seems to me that this could be simplified a fair amount.

My first suggestion is to simply use one stat block and have them all be ranged unarmed attacks. Ranged attacks already provoke attacks of opportunity, which the melee versions currently do anyway due to them being Impulse abilities. These are blasts and that makes me think ranged anyway.

Second suggestion, give the blast attacks the Impulse trait as a weapon trait. Meaning it can only be used after Gathering an Element and allows Con to be used for the attack roll. As for other traits; allow earth and water to keep forceful and sweep respectively; add propulsive to all blasts, while bumping earth to a d10 so that it can maintain the damage over the others. Additionally, I think air could be bumped up to a d6 with range dropped to 90' range and be fine.

Third, alter the Flexible Blasts feat to be a feat that grants extra traits to various blasts so that they can expand their utility. Air getting Versatile (electricity), Fire getting Deadly or Scatter, Earth getting Shove or Parry, and Water getting Versatile (cold) or Trip.

This sets Gather Element as an action similar to entering a stance to gain the associated unarmed strike through the Impulse trait. Which they can then use their key ability for on their attack rolls. This also boosts the damage output for the class's primary offensive ability and provides a way to extend the options for the blasts via Flexible Blasts.

After trying out the class, I honestly think active implements needs a little more oumph. Wand and Chalice are under tuned...

I suggested this elsewhere, but I think that the Chalice could have a third option (fitting since 3 seems to be an important number) to Fill the Chalice. Targeting a creature you’ve identified with EA. Basic Fortitude against X negative damage with the Chalice filling on a failure, allowing it to be drained again.

While I do think that would be neat, the current plan seems to be Three Active, Three Reactive, and Three Passive according to a post by Mark Seifter, so I'm not sure it would fit in the planned design space.

Dang. I hadn’t seen that post. It makes sense, but I do find it a little disappointing. At least with the options we have now. Some are obviously better than others.

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

I disagree they all need passives; its very intentional that 3 provide actions, 3 provide reactions, and 3 provide passives. Any enhancments should enhance the type of benefit they provide or be the same type of benefit

I also agree that mixing the types is strange, but I do think having all three types of effects be enhanced by FF/EA is possible, and would help the current design feel more cohesive rather than two ideas pulling against each other.

I agree. I think that each should have a benefit for EA targets and something for when they don’t have an EA target. This leads to each having a Passive and an active OR reactive benefit. That works out the best IMO at least.

Alchemic_Genius wrote:

So the implements are categorized as active, reactive, and passive. I would love to see implement enhancing feats, but I feel goodies should follow these themes, like:

Amulet: get a +1 status bonus on saves from you EA target when you use your reaction

Chalice: you can give yourself a small amount of persistent bleed damage to refill the chalice as an action

Lanturn: lower the flat check DC to strike your EA when they are hidden, ignore the check when they are concealed

Wand: fling magic procs EA or you can fuse your implement with a magic wand and cast the contained spell without making a trick magic item roll using you thaumaturge class prof

Weapon: idk, this is already a strong reaction, maybe frightened 1 on a hit with the reaction

Weapon and Amulet already only work against your EA target, so they should be getting an effect against stuff that isn't the EA target.

Maybe the Amulet grants a bonus to saves against spells of a specific tradition that can be selected each day?

I think the weapon passive could be that you wouldn’t need a hand free to wave an implement around since it is the implement. This would open up more weapon options and allow shield Thaumaturges to exist.

Firebeard92 wrote:

Golurkcanfly wrote:

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.

Sound good.

Though might be stealing a bit of the Wand's thunder, though the Wand needs improvements to begin with (why it doesn't get extra damage from EA is beyond me).

I like the wand’s current ability, but not on its own. It should have some kind of utility on top of the damage. Detect Magic at the least. I think it could also be used to cast a spell a day or something along those lines as it is improved.

Elsewhere, I have suggested being able to change the wand’s damage type by taking 10 minutes at initial, an action (maybe 2) at adept, and a free action at paragon while increasing its damage to d6s and Detect Magic as well. For the Thaumaturge to be a very magical oriented class, it lacks ways to find magic.

I really like that idea. Could be flavored as draining the life essence of a creature for most stuff, but for the current Adept benefit (Which really wants a Blood Flavor) it could be literal blood.

Maybe have it explicitly be a Negative Energy effect as well? Would be kinda weird to "drain life" against a zombie.

That could work. Perhaps have it as a 2 action ability that deals 1d4 negative damage and increasing by 1d4 every odd level afterwards. With the ability only able to be done once the Chalice is drained. Basic Fortitude save and filling the chalice on a failure.

PossibleCabbage wrote:

I agree that Implements should do something without FF/EA, and should do something more with FF/EA. But figuring out this might be a tricky problem.

Like your specific magically significant amulet should always do something without looking closely at the opposition, and your specifically magically significant chalice should do something when you've figured out the opposition.

Right now the Chalice and Lantern seem to be the hard ones to figure something out for out of the Implements we know.

One idea for Chalice I've had is to have it apply a defensive buff against the target of FF/EA. Another is to let it poison the FF/EA target under the logic of "what can give life can also take it"

As for the Lantern, while it passively improves FF/EA by buffing Recall Knowledge checks, there's existing contention against FF/EA using Recall Knowledge to begin with (of which I agree that RK as part of it is weird). What it could gain is the ability to blind an FF/EA target, or it could instead let you counteract effects that are currently active on the target.

I like your suggestion for the lantern and the chalice.

Specifically for the chalice, you could add a 3rd option called Fill. You could target an Identified target with Fill forcing a Fort save and take X damage, but on a failure the chalice could be drained again.

Maybe the lantern could have a Dazzling or Fascinating effect on targets affected by EA.

I think that the implements should interact with FF and EA, but I also think that they could have additional passives for things outside of combat.

- Amulet: Maybe it gives a +1 to saves of a tradition you pick each day and against haunts.

- Chalice: You get a +1 to Medicine checks and can use the Chalice in place of healer’s tools with the target gaining additional health as if they had drained the chalice.

- Lantern: I love the lantern as is.

- Wand: Maybe it can Detect Magic for you.

- Weapon: First, I think that the reaction could be nerfed a bit, but maybe it could be the only implement where you don’t need a free hand.

I really like the concept of the implements, but feel they lack a bit of versatility.

I’m all for a reworking of Find Flaws and EA as right now they are pretty clunky. But for implements I’d like to see some passives or abilities that could benefit outside of combat. With the ones we have in the playtest, I’d suggest something along these lines:

- Amulet: +1 to saves against spells and haunts, maybe. Probably a bit strong.

- Chalice: Gain a +1 to Medicine checks when using the Chalice as healer’s tools and heal an additional amount as though the creature had drained the chalice.

- Lantern: I love the lantern as is. My favorite of the playtest.

- Wand: Maybe this one could provide a Detect Magic effect.

- Weapon: Weapon’s reaction is already really strong. I could see nerfing that and maybe a +1 on attacks against identified creatures. Probably too strong still.

I personally believe that these two should be combined into one ability. This is the main thing that is going to give the Thaumaturge its identity as a hunter of the strange and otherworldly. And EA can be done on Find Flaws check outside of Critical Failures. With them being trained in all of the big Recall Knowledge skills and it keying off of their key ability score will really help with Recall Knowledge checks, but as others have pointed out, the weird Uncommon or Rare creatures have hefty modifiers to identify them, which makes it harder to identify them. Some of my suggestions to fix these issues:

-Make Find Flaws and EA one ability. I could see it becoming 2 actions to do so, but I think that the Thaumaturge could automatically succeed on Recall Knowledge checks on creatures of its level or lower. On top of that, I think that they should get a bonus on identifying uncommon or rarer creatures (I was thinking +2, +3 when gaining a second implement, +4 when gaining a third implement).

-Incentivize them actually being prepared. I think that this could be done by reducing the damage granted by EA. Perhaps the Thaumaturge only deals the Implement Empowerment damage to targets that they have identified with Find Flaws, but can increase a natural weakness that the target has by half their level if they hit them with it.
-So a 4th level Thaumaturge would deal an extra 4 damage to a Werewolf without a silver weapon, but if they had a silver weapon its weakness would bump up to 7. This still gives a benefit to EA, but also rewards being actually prepared for an encounter.

-Multiple target identifying. I think that the Thaumaturge needs an ability to use Find Flaws/EA on more than one target at a time. I personally think that this progression could line up well with Implement Adept (Identify up to 2 targets) and Implement Mastery (Identify up to 3 targets).

-Additionally, there should be some kind of bonus for skills like Intimidation and Deception against identified enemies. Maybe an option to get a bonus to AC or attack against them. I know Rule of Three does this for attacks, but I think it should be part of the base class rather than a feat since it compounds onto Find Flaws.

-Maybe they should always use Esoteric Lore and it be a class given skill. Not too sure about that though.