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Since I seem to have Master proficiency in Lore(unpopular opinion), I thought I would chime in with my variation on this thread theme. I don't expect this to be well received, but hey - it is my opinion and therefore just as valid as any other opinion.
So that said, Bard is my least liked and most misunderstood class in PF2e.
My problem with it isn't the mechanical power though. That part seems to be fine. No, my problem is that characters created with that class seem ... inconsistent. It feels like the player chose the class first because it would be a powerful class, and then try (with varying levels of effort) to wrap a meaningful character around it. So character theme tends to fall into one of these two options:
Type 1) My character was a performer or wandering minstrel that became an adventurer because reasons (good so far) that casts mind warping and negative energy Occult spells because LOL (hmm...).
Type 2) My character is a seeker of occult mysteries and strange powers (good) that uses music in combat because LOL (sigh...).
Starting with a character concept first and then choosing a class, I would generally put type 1 characters into Rogue or Swashbuckler class. Give them proficiency in performance (or not - maybe their terrible performance history is why they became an adventurer instead). For type 2 characters I would think that Occult tradition Sorcerer or Witch would be a much better fit.
Also for Type 2 characters, there is the option of re-flavoring the music abilities into something more occult-like, but at that point it should be using the Occultism skill rather than Performance.
So to all of you Bard enthusiasts out there, my question for you is: do you like the class because you have characters that are best represented by a Bard? Or is it, as I suspect, that you chose the Bard class for its mechanical power of improving the mathematical advantage of the party and character building is a distant second priority?
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This smells like a troll thread
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So character theme tends to fall into one of these two options:
Type 1) My character was a performer or wandering minstrel that became an adventurer because reasons (good so far) that casts mind warping and negative energy Occult spells because LOL (hmm...).
Type 2) My character is a seeker of occult mysteries and strange powers (good) that uses music in combat because LOL (sigh...).
Yes they are different concepts
It doesn't work for me. I would like to see a Bard as a different sort of rogue. Not a dedicated caster.
But this sort of thing is in D&D5 as well. I just think it is out of touch with literature and media in general, ie its not the way we visualise the characters in stories.
In the end this is a design choice by Paizo, and we need to respect that.
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We do genuinely need another dedicated Occult class that has no ties to music or performance. Having the Bard being the only Occult specialist to date gives the wrong impression of "Occult" IMO.
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FWIW, I also don’t like Bards - the musical flavor feels too narrow to be a core class, and it doesn’t scratch the itch of the Occult class fantasy for me. The SoM essay helped me grok /why/ Bards are Occult, but it still doesn’t make me want to play one.
Hoping for a reprieve from all my casters being Aberrant Sorcerers soon.
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This smells like a troll thread
Heh. Actually, I am not trolling. Bard is in fact my least liked class so far. For the reasons I listed.
At worst I am showing through example how there is no possibility of a 'perfect' class - one that is universally liked by everyone.
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The bard bores me.
I made one bard. He was a Mastro muse bard. He would talk to ghosts who taught him to sing, perform, and the like. He would go to local graveyards and could learn from the ghosts great tales that he used to inspire courage and the like. That was my concept.
But man, what a boring class. Every round composition cantrip. Harmonize, do two composition cantrips. The party loved him. He was powerful. But oh so boring to play. His actions were like a two-weapon fighter locked into dual slice almost every round.
I can't stand a locked in play-style that encourages the rest of the party to look at you side-eyed for not giving them their buffs. I like lots of useful options round to round that allow me to change things up. When your most useful action is preset from level 1 that sucks.
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I think Secrets of Magic has a pretty decent explanation of why occult magic is essentially performance-- it is tapping into narrative forces of the collective unconscious. And there's a foundation in mythology for songs being powerful-- several creation myths revolve around the world being sung into existence. And songs are linked to ceremony and worship as a way of communing with the unknowable even today in the real world.
Picturing someone strumming their banjo in the middle of a fight might be a little funny, but arcane casters are basically just doing math in the middle of a fight, so.
This doesn't counter anyone else's opinion, but I think the flavor of the class works fine. Especially when you consider a the esoteric lore bard doesn't actually need to use music.
I've only been able to get invested in particularly martial bards, the kind that takes Perform (Oratory) and calls it barking orders as a commander on the field. PF2's take on the bard doesn't fit as cleanly into this concept as PF1's did and it's got the extra mechanical problem of having one routine that's so good you don't really want to do anything else so it's definitely a lot less compelling than most of the other classes to me.
I have a hard time getting into bards as well. The idea of singing a song or playing a tune that boosts allies while people are dying and killing is hard for me to conceptualize.
I'm not against bards, I just can't seem to visualize them in combat situations.
Buglers and drummers were key members of the chain of command through centuries of warfare, unfortunately the DND bard insists on the spoony variety.
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I love the bard, there are plenty of occult spells that don't have spooky flavor to it and allow you to create a classic bard.
I love buffing allies but I also love its connection to music. Before I ever played pathfinder or dnd I played fire emblem and my favorite classes were the dancer and bard classes, and young teenage me thought magical musicians was such a novel concept. As I got older I learned about the importance of music in both mythology and battle. The connection to stories and music, building on something powerful is absolutely riveting. You aren't just playing music, you are channeling music through song or instrument.
If you think oh it's just the fiddle, oh it's just the flute... then I don't think you are actually looking at the class you are looking at the stereotype of the class. Bards are basically the aquaman of ttrpg. There was some bad portrayals long ago and now nobody actually thinks about the actual substance of the concept just the poorly done stereotype.
That being said I feel like the Bard and the Occult list would benefit from another dedicated occult class existing.
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I really think had the concept existed Bard would have made a great wave caster. A bit more martial and then some spell support in the form of songs when needed. Composition cantrips are awesome... too much so.
But as a wave caster is could have done something else. Bound/wave casting, martial weapon/armour prof progression and swashbuckler like skill/skill feat progression... or better focus spells to replace composition cantrips, something that amounts 1 round buffs to turn the tide at key moments or something.
Me either. And not just in PF2e. I've never thought it was worthy of a class. But people like them, so...
The bard bores me.
I made one bard. He was a Mastro muse bard. He would talk to ghosts who taught him to sing, perform, and the like. He would go to local graveyards and could learn from the ghosts great tales that he used to inspire courage and the like. That was my concept.
But man, what a boring class. Every round composition cantrip. Harmonize, do two composition cantrips. The party loved him. He was powerful. But oh so boring to play. His actions were like a two-weapon fighter locked into dual slice almost every round.
I can't stand a locked in play-style that encourages the rest of the party to look at you side-eyed for not giving them their buffs. I like lots of useful options round to round that allow me to change things up. When your most useful action is preset from level 1 that sucks.
We had a bard in 3.5 whose player liked to 'zone out' and doodle on scrap paper when it wasn't her turn. It was a perfect match since all she did was inspire courage every round.
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So far bard has been a great class in my games
I played Jebediah Jamieson, journalist extraordinaire in a game. Jeb was an enigma gnome bard who always knew too much about everything and got in trouble for it all of the time. He also had the versatile performance feat and used his as ability to act to get out of a lot of trouble.
In battle if I did use inspiré courage it was to micro manage my party because they were doing poorly and I knew better.
Overall he was a very fun insufferable know it all to play
One of my players played captain orzo "thunderblade" in agents of edgewatch.
Orzo was a warrior muse bard with Marshall and sentinel feats.
He would lead and inspire from the front in his full plate, wielding his bastard sword and casting powerful truth seeking spells during investigations. He was a master of intimidation and people would flee, and eventually die, from his verbal tirades.
Again, no music, but very fun.
Bards are IMO about what you make of them, not just the typical minstrel.
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So far bard has been a great class in my games
I played Jebediah Jamieson, journalist extraordinaire in a game. Jeb was an enigma gnome bard who always knew too much about everything and got in trouble for it all of the time. He also had the versatile performance feat and used his as ability to act to get out of a lot of trouble.
In battle if I did use inspiré courage it was to micro manage my party because they were doing poorly and I knew better.
Overall he was a very fun insufferable know it all to play
One of my players played captain orzo "thunderblade" in agents of edgewatch.
Orzo was a warrior muse bard with Marshall and sentinel feats.
He would lead and inspire from the front in his full plate, wielding his bastard sword and casting powerful truth seeking spells during investigations. He was a master of intimidation and people would flee, and eventually die, from his verbal tirades.
Again, no music, but very fun.
Bards are IMO about what you make of them, not just the typical minstrel.
First: These are some awesome characters.
But I am also curious: How would these characters look and feel to you with a different base class instead of Bard. Especially if you aren't using the typical Bard stuff.
Jeb sounds like an Investigator. Probably Empiricism methodology.
Orzo could be a Braggart Swashbuckler with a spellcasting archetype like Oracle or Sorcerer for the truth seeking spells to go along with the Marshall archetype. There likely won't be room to fit in Sentinel archetype too, so that would be a visible change to the character.
If the spellcasting is more important to Orzo, then Oracle or Cleric base class could also work well. Though this is also where the idea of a new Occult casting class could really shine.
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Well this is a case of function over style.
For Jeb: Versatile Performer freed up a lot of my skill increases and allowed me to focus on my performance, and with bardic lore I was doing the know it all role much better than an investigator would have done. Also spellcasting was important to me, as the group already had a ranger, fighter and investigator.
Playing the face and the occult magic power house meshed well.
For Orzo: Once again, function over style, primary spellcaster was much more important to the player as he likes spontaneous casting. Having it as a secondary would not have worked as well for him. On top of that nabbing a second muse and grabbing combat reading and bardic lore allowed him to dive just a bit into his more erudite side (he was inspired by Captain Holt from brooklynn 99)
I see what you mean though, those concepts could have been done without the bard, but it could be the other way around as well.
Character concepts are important, and then you tack on the class chasis based on what you want your character to do. In those cases, the Bard fit more than others.
My problem with it isn't the mechanical power though. That part seems to be fine. No, my problem is that characters created with that class seem ... inconsistent. It feels like the player chose the class first because it would be a powerful class, and then try (with varying levels of effort) to wrap a meaningful character around it.
Well yeah. There are two ways I've seen people make characters. You pick mechanics that look fun to play and then try to build the character or you build the character and then try to fit them into the mechanics.
The issue isn't the class but that the people doing method one themselves know what they want to play but have no idea who they want to play and so open with a boilerplate personality that may or may not grow as they play. And often these are obvious archetypes.
Personally, I like doing this myself (with a bit more nuance perhaps) as I like the freedom of tweaking as I more fully realize the character without feeling locked into some rigid structure I pre-built.
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My understanding is that you don't really have to play music for most bard abilities, they just give you the option. Definitely still centered around encouraging your allies with the locked-in inspire courage though, maybe a class archetype to swap that focus cantrip for something else would open up the class to other concepts.
And there are other options than just play music/occult magic. Nothing stopping a bard from picking up max proficiency Athletics and near-max Strength and grabbing/tripping/shoving people between encouraging their allies with speeches.
My bards typically see music as a way to distract or impress and that the real magic is reserved for those that can't be persuaded through other means. Or for patching up allies with soothe[/r] or [i]remove curse. And my current bard player rides around on a gorilla from his green faith cavalier order, so there are definitely different ways to go about this.
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2e bards gain a weird degree of weight that you didn't really see before. Now, they are basically oracles or witches with direct intervention of otherworldly powers.
In 1e? They were people that took a few classes at their local community college without picking a major. A bit of swordplay, a bit of skills, a bit of 'useful' magic (buffs for other stuff, emergency healing, a trick or two). Even though you relied on performance to accomplish some of the more magical aspects, you could say "he is not very good at magic, so he has to mnemonics to get by."
It felt like something that a person with a slightly eclectic personality might pick up on their travels. That way, you could just be "an adventurer", rather than anything as specific as a "bard".
In fact, there was a highly effective dip you could do with the archaeologist that got rid of music entirely for a less narratively significant 'luck'. I could stretch that for every fight in a day from level 1, giving enough melee bonuses to make up for being 3/4 while having a fantastic saves. I could then easily switch into any martial class without any kinks in his 'career path'.
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I always thought the bard was like the Final Fantasy Red mage with a little bit of fighting, a little bit of magic and a little bit of skills sort of like a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue but without going all the way, so not the most powerful fighting and not the best and biggest spells and not as skilled. Now it’s just some weird musical class caster that for god knows what reason has been stereotyped into being super horny all the time.
Why don't you think of it like the final fantasy bard? lol
Pretty sure they dropped the weapon skills and made Bard a full caster so that you'd actually have a reason to use an instrument, it was all Oratory/Singing/Dancing in PF1 because you needed your hands available. I think of all the full casters Bard is the most suited to a more martial class archetype that gives you wave casting and martial proficiency on weapons.
Anyway they have really improved the number of bardic style spells and sonic spells in SoM. So there is more to work with now if you want a more musical bard.
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For me it is not difficult at all seeing the inspiration and necessity of the bard as a class.
Orpheus was a hero for a reason.
Then there were the musicians who kept up morale before battle and while marching even as recently as the American Civil War.
And then there is the image of some guy/gal singing while throwing spells, as if in the center of a stage; it gives a different, but just as valid, image as an all powerful wizard grumbling in draconic before throwing a fireball.
As for myself, my first fully released Pathfinder Second Edition character was a bard, Virgil, who took on the form of his namesake, as an epic poet. For my sessions, I wrote out poetry lines in iambic pentameter based on imagined heroic stories or the adventures of my party. Like a song, my inspire courage was like a chorus, which wrapped around the verses of my spells and the gesticulations that heightened the performance, effectively making the performance better and tapping into the magic of the occult. While Virgil did not necessarily sing or play an instrument, it would not have been very difficult or wholly uncharacteristic to have musical accompaniment.
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Music and powerful magic are a staple of bards in fantasy fiction. Kvothe from the Name of the Wind, Deth and Morgan from the Riddle Master of Head, Orpheus from Greek myth, Taliesin from Welsh myth... There are a bunch of them. Learning song and story reaches into people's hearts and spirits. Music is a harmony that at its most perfected reflects the secret harmonies of the universe. The class makes total sense to me.
If you started as a performer or wandering musician, you learned the deeper secrets of your art and they developed into a knack for some magic.
Or you may have learned your art as part of a path to a deeper, occult understanding of the universe.
Music and powerful magic are a staple of bards in fantasy fiction. Kvothe from the Name of the Wind, Deth and Morgan from the Riddle Master of Head, Orpheus from Greek myth, Taliesin from Welsh myth... There are a bunch of them. Learning song and story reaches into people's hearts and spirits. Music is a harmony that at its most perfected reflects the secret harmonies of the universe. The class makes total sense to me.
If you started as a performer or wandering musician, you learned the deeper secrets of your art and they developed into a knack for some magic.
Or you may have learned your art as part of a path to a deeper, occult understanding of the universe.
Yeah you can put it together, like Paizo have. But I see Kvothe as a trained wizard with an entertainer background. Very close to a Namer as per Earth Sea. Orpheus and Taliesin are not,their power was in the emotional impact of music.
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Pretty sure they dropped the weapon skills and made Bard a full caster so that you'd actually have a reason to use an instrument, it was all Oratory/Singing/Dancing in PF1 because you needed your hands available.
The players who could pull off a Perform(Comedy) bard, though a small percentage of the people who think they can pull it off, are something to be treasured though.
In fact, there was a highly effective dip you could do with the archaeologist that got rid of music entirely for a less narratively significant 'luck'. I could stretch that for every fight in a day from level 1, giving enough melee bonuses to make up for being 3/4 while having a fantastic saves. I could then easily switch into any martial class without any kinks in his 'career path'.
Almost. All Bards (and unfortunately, the Archaeologist too, since the archetype doesn't specify otherwise) have to have verbal components for their spells and cannot use Silent Spell. And while that technically doesn't HAVE to be music or singing, it's still an unfortunate hanger-on to what was otherwise the perfect fix to the Bard.
Pretty sure they dropped the weapon skills and made Bard a full caster so that you'd actually have a reason to use an instrument, it was all Oratory/Singing/Dancing in PF1 because you needed your hands available. I think of all the full casters Bard is the most suited to a more martial class archetype that gives you wave casting and martial proficiency on weapons.
Maybe that could be the Skald class archetype?
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I agree with you OP, the "occult" bard has never made any sense to me either. personally I would have preferred that bardic magic be it's own thing tied to artistry but I understand the logistics of why that did not happen.
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I agree with you OP, the "occult" bard has never made any sense to me either. personally I would have preferred that bardic magic be it's own thing tied to artistry but I understand the logistics of why that did not happen.
You're probably thinking of the occult just as "ritualistic eldritch stuff" you often find in horror stories and lovecraftian lore, but Pathfinder's occult has a different approach that has been expanded recently on the occult magical treatise found in Secrets of Magic. It is a cool read.
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By the way, as an alternative take on the Bard, one of my current character ideas that I'm brewing involves an stand up comedian/storyteller kind of Bard that would've been hunted by some yet unknown monarch because of their powerful word stirring the populace against the oppression and tyranny.
Another concept I always liked as well was of a battle dancer, with some kind of bodyguard background or exotic performer (maybe even assassin).
The class is mechanically powerful and interesting, with lots of interesting angles of approach, which is basically the spot that every class should be at in my opinion (the Alchemist fails spectacularly in this aspect).
As long as you get to fully realize lots of character concepts using the class itself, then the class is successful. The Bard would be a successful class even without being the benchmark in AOE buffing/debuffing that they are currently.
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Type 1) My character was a performer or wandering minstrel that became an adventurer because reasons (good so far) that casts mind warping and negative energy Occult spells because LOL (hmm...).
Type 2) My character is a seeker of occult mysteries and strange powers (good) that uses music in combat because LOL (sigh...).
Type 1) My character is a performer or wandering minstrel that became an adventurer because reasons that casts mind warping and illusory Occult spells because even mundane music compels people to tap their feet, to feel things, and even mundane stories conjure up visions and images in people's minds.
Type 2) My character is a seeker of occult mysteries and strange powers that uses ominous sonorous chanting in combat because… that's exactly what you'd expect occult magic to use?
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In the Call of Cthulhu, knowledge of the Great Old Ones is passed down in the Cult of Cthulhu through stories, songs, and artwork.
Just saying.
I always thought the bard was like the Final Fantasy Red mage with a little bit of fighting, a little bit of magic and a little bit of skills sort of like a Fighter/Wizard/Rogue but without going all the way, so not the most powerful fighting and not the best and biggest spells and not as skilled. Now it’s just some weird musical class caster that for god knows what reason has been stereotyped into being super horny all the time.Why don't you think of it like the final fantasy bard? lolWell to be honest I have only exposure to the FFXIV version in addition the previous versions of TTRPGs it seemed to be like the red mage. It used to be good at sword fighting in older versions, it’s always been sort of magical but at some point they made it a full caster and the weapon skills seem to have fallen off as of late. Not sure why.
Also FWIW the bard in FFXIV is for sure a full martial with almost no casting so even then…
In every fubal fantasy other than 14 its a full on support
In fact, there was a highly effective dip you could do with the archaeologist that got rid of music entirely for a less narratively significant 'luck'. I could stretch that for every fight in a day from level 1, giving enough melee bonuses to make up for being 3/4 while having a fantastic saves. I could then easily switch into any martial class without any kinks in his 'career path'.Almost. All Bards (and unfortunately, the Archaeologist too, since the archetype doesn't specify otherwise) have to have verbal components for their spells and cannot use Silent Spell. And while that technically doesn't HAVE to be music or singing, it's still an unfortunate hanger-on to what was otherwise the perfect fix to the Bard.
1. Archaeologist does not get any kind of performance, and luck effectively replaces that. The rest of the ability is just trying to bring it back to the performance framework for the sake of feats and a few restrictions.
2. Blade dances are an option for all bards, and it just means "you have a really fancy fighting style". That might lean you into the charming fighter narratives a bit more, but it isn't so far that you couldn't pretend to be a swashbuckler or rogue.
In fact, there was a highly effective dip you could do with the archaeologist that got rid of music entirely for a less narratively significant 'luck'. I could stretch that for every fight in a day from level 1, giving enough melee bonuses to make up for being 3/4 while having a fantastic saves. I could then easily switch into any martial class without any kinks in his 'career path'.Almost. All Bards (and unfortunately, the Archaeologist too, since the archetype doesn't specify otherwise) have to have verbal components for their spells and cannot use Silent Spell. And while that technically doesn't HAVE to be music or singing, it's still an unfortunate hanger-on to what was otherwise the perfect fix to the Bard.1. Archaeologist does not get any kind of performance, and luck effectively replaces that. The rest of the ability is just trying to bring it back to the performance framework for the sake of feats and a few restrictions.
2. Blade dances are an option for all bards, and it just means "you have a really fancy fighting style". That might lean you into the charming fighter narratives a bit more, but it isn't so far that you couldn't pretend to be a swashbuckler or rogue.
I'm confused. Are you agreeing with what I said? Disagreeing? Expanding upon? I'm not following the flow of this conversation.
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For me it is not difficult at all seeing the inspiration and necessity of the bard as a class.
Orpheus was a hero for a reason.
Then there were the musicians who kept up morale before battle and while marching even as recently as the American Civil War.
The military scottish bagpipes players played in front of the advancing soldiers as recently as WW2.
I just straight up don't like bards, how they work in any of these games, and mostly flavor wise. It's at a weird intersection of it struggling to have a niche, and when it does have one it's at the expense of other classes much like the rogue, [all the rogue(thief) stuff was designed in 1e to be done by the wizard(magic-user) before their introduction.] which bard was introduced to DnD as a variation of the rogue. It's kind of ludacris to me that a bard, which is a real world thing, would have magic and especially magic at the level of a wizard and be adventuring, fighting demons n s++!. It now being occult is even stranger to me and I haven't got my copy of secrets of magic, but it low-key feels like the occult as a whole is being reshaped around the bard... As someone mentioned, it being a core class is also strange. I think something like the psychic should have been the premiere occult class, and if we have to have bards I would prefer they not be a spellcaster on the level of the wizard having all the way up to tenth level casting, they should probably go back to being a rogue archetype/subclass
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Not that we have a bard in our game but tbh if someone wanted to play it I think I would do two things.
1. Give wave casting instead of full casting.
2. Give some sort of mechanism to improve physical accuracy. It might be just give them master there but maybe give them master accuracy to hit on turns they do a composition or something.I still think Bard would be a very powerful class but it would promote a better playstyle than what they have now which is pretty static.
I love playing my Bard! I enjoy contributing in every combat, even if I don't hit, or if our opponent saves every time.
That being said, I like this idea! It's elegant, and, balance wise, would open the Bard up to get more powerful and interesting Focus Spells.