Something I've seen GMs on these boards do when they don't like how crazy mythic can get is to nerf or veto a lot of the insane powers and instead allow gestalt characters. They feel powerful but aren't as completely broken as full on mythic can be.
I am currently running WotR on here and would love the chance to run my tiefling paladin of sarenrae through the AP. Our home game stopped at 8th level in the citidal and I don't think he made it out of the first book on here.
I know what you mean about mythic getting crazy. My group are steamrolling them on the way to Drezen
I think I have an idea about what kind of character to make. I'm thinking about making a human ranger with the tanglebriar demonslayer and infiltrator archetypes. The mythic path would be marshal and for my hunter's bond, I would choose the hunting companions choice. My question is would a human be able to take up the tanglebriar demonslayer archetype since the description of it mentions elves?
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I know what you mean about mythic getting crazy. My group are steamrolling them on the way to Drezen
Steamrolling? Gosh, I wouldn't quite say Steamrolling :)
Good luck getting in this game, DM Trawets I'm rooting for you!
@Tara Ravenheart If you'll consider recommendations when you post the recruitment: take a long hard look at Trawets character. He's a solid consistent player I've had the privilege to play with in several games for several years. I highly recommend him!
Do I feel like trying for a slot when I know there's so much competition...
After talking with the wonderful DM, I have a solid idea for the game. I would be making a dwarven forgepriest of Torag. I'd have a focus on making magical armor and weapons with the group, being an excellent tank, and taking the Touched by Divinity. I'd take dual path into Champion to help out with my offensive capabilities.
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The downside of 1-to-1 might be for those who have a MAD (Multiple Ability Dependent) class, who need strength, dexterity, con, and some mental stat or two to be above average (11+). Rolling dice can give you a nice, well-rounded, decently powerful MAD character. A static number for some characters could be great, but for a MAD class, to keep yourself from dipping too low into your stats, it might leave you with multiple 10s (or lower), 12s, and some 14s. This isn't bad, but it's not great, and certainly not mythic, so really will depend on what point value you assign. Certainly, it is not an easy choice for you! These are just some things to consider (if you haven't already).
My 2nd AP (another run of Skull & Shackles), the GM only wanted rolled stats with the 4d6 seven times and drop the lowest score. I wasn't in the same place the GM was at the time and my friend wouldn't roll my stats so I asked the GM to do it. He rolled an 18, two 16s, two 14s, and a 13 as the top 6 - considerably higher than the other PCs in the party. So the rolling method does help anyone wanting a MAD class.
Wow, that would be an awesome time. I've only ever had my MAD characters have low stats. It would be awesome to have high ones in a game, although I've think those might be a bit high hehe. I myself am not planning a fully MAD class this time, but I'll save that for the recruitment board. I think it's kind of a semi-MAD.
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Wow, with the number of PMs I have received since yesterday afternoon, you would think I had just joined a dating site. Thank you all so much for the interest in this game, I think I have gotten back to all of the direct messages. I have been playing with some more numbers, and still haven't made a decision, but will write up my thoughts later this evening. I want to note Shadow Dragon's rolled stat set is a 50 point buy in the standard system. So even if I used a 25 point buy as the fallback, anyone who had to use it would be woefully underpowered compared to that character...
On the note of MAD characters, not every stat has to be a 16 or 18. When I played through this AP, I played a small angel-born aasimar (halfling) paladin, who used long sword and shield to two-weapon fight - definitely not an optimized paladin. We used 20 pt buy, and I needed strength, dexterity, and charisma, with a dose of constitution for hit points, and so took an average intelligence and a hit on wisdom, making her a brash, emotional, somewhat reckless paladin.
(14, 15, 13, 12, 8, 14 before +2 str, +2 cha). She was a blast to play, and became a beast in combat.
Wow, with the number of PMs I have received since yesterday afternoon, you would think I had just joined a dating site. Thank you all so much for the interest in this game, I think I have gotten back to all of the direct messages. I have been playing with some more numbers, and still haven't made a decision, but will write up my thoughts later this evening. I want to note Shadow Dragon's rolled stat set is a 50 point buy in the standard system. So even if I used a 25 point buy as the fallback, anyone who had to use it would be woefully underpowered compared to that character...
On the note of MAD characters, not every stat has to be a 16 or 18. When I played through this AP, I played a small angel-born aasimar (halfling) paladin, who used long sword and shield to two-weapon fight - definitely not an optimized paladin. We used 20 pt buy, and I needed strength, dexterity, and charisma, with a dose of constitution for hit points, and so took an average intelligence and a hit on wisdom, making her a brash, emotional, somewhat reckless paladin.
(14, 15, 13, 12, 8, 14 before +2 str, +2 cha). She was a blast to play, and became a beast in combat.
I think most people are used to enemies being made stronger, or look at entries in later bestiaries which are based around higher point buys. Wrath of the Righteous seems like the kind of AP that's not designed for super high stats.
Wrath of the Righteous does get really zany with mythic's power boosts and all the good stuff you get. I also had played a paladin, sword & board goodness, some mounted stuff, and took Marshal. It was amazing.
... Wait, is she taking applications already?
... Wait, is she taking applications already?
Not yet! She did have questions about character concepts for some of us and wanted to clear things up.
... Wait, is she taking applications already?Not yet! She did have questions about character concepts for some of us and wanted to clear things up.
Okay, just noticed the fact that apparently people have been rolling for stats and got concerned.
a hit on wisdom, making her a brash, emotional, somewhat reckless paladin.
(14, 15, 13, 12, 8, 14 before +2 str, +2 cha). She was a blast to play, and became a beast in combat.
Yeah, I like 20-pt buy. You can make an alright MAD character with it. I also like the fact you roleplay your stats. I do as well.
I'm sorry you have been receiving so many PMs. That comes with the territory, unfortunately (although, I'd secretly like it). I do have two questions regarding a character, but I'll wait further into recruitment, or perhaps even after the point of acceptance/refusal so as to spare you haha. They aren't overly important.
I think that I can get away with being a human with the tanglebriar demonslayer archetype. I think I will also take the Champion mythic path rather than the Marshal path.
Honestly, probably gonna submit a Succor Oracle. Making a purely supportive character sounds interesting, and well, looking at the potential options for an Oracle, I can see a really interesting one with a Halfling Succor Oracle...
Would love to see that.
Meraati wrote:Then he'll have a face off against an aspirant symphonic metal girl. ;)
Epica vs Sabaton.
I'll do it. Dont test me.
Sadly I cant gestalt brawler/barbarian nor rip a balor's horns off to stab him to death with it.
But I'm good to have a go regardless.
I've had a barbarian(Titan Mauler) in a solo-run of WotR, he was a blast to play, had just got my first mythic rank when the GM couldn't maintain the campaign for IRL reasons.
His backstory and traits still fit the criteria of this interest check, so I would throw his hat in the ring as well.
Otherwise if the need for a paladin would arise, I've got a halfling paladin(divine hunter) with lucky halfling feat to share his tremendous saves with the the rest of the party.
tieflingwizard yes, I am cool with you taking tanglebriar demonslayer (simply call it demonslayer) with a human character. It plus infiltrator would actually create a rather flavorful ranger as a sort of Military Scout of Mendev, designed to operate within the Worldwound.
SmooshieBanana hahaha, no, I am excited by the number of messages. They are far more mature than those received on a dating site, and show genuine interest in what I am offering (as opposed to the typical lewd comments). Send over your questions, I am happy to address them.
Brolof no, I was commenting on a set of ability scores the other player had rolled for a home game.
Nazard I do enjoy Gestalt, liking the way it can flavor a build, but feel it fits a different niche (for example, it is great for games with only 2 or 3 players). To be clear, I did enjoy the mythic system, but as a group we made some tweaks to try and balance it better. I will be looking to take that perhaps a step further. I have reached out to my old GM to see if he has his notes still from back then, as a point of reference. Luckily, we have a whole first book to get through first.
As promised, below are some thoughts/observations on the various methods to create ability scores.
3d6. Average (Classic)
Average: 10.5. Six Score Avg Total: 63.
The origin of rolled ability scores dating back to the earliest editions of D&D, in which case scores were often rolled in order and taken as is. Moving forward, this was left as a relic of the past at the start of 3rd edition, marking such score sets as 'normal' and 'underpowered'. This is reflected in the npc base sets; the Basic Array used by npc class characters (13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8), and the Neutral array used by creatures with racial hit dice (11, 11, 11, 10, 10, 10). In the point buy system, these would be reflected as a 3 Point Buy, markedly below the potential tiers offered in the Core Rulebook. Such characters will mostly be little different than the average farmer, but it is also possible for 1 or even 2 players to get extremely lucky and stand miles above their friends.
4d6, drop lowest. Fantasy (Standard)
Average: 12.25. Six Score Avg Total: 73.5.
The first step to improve the Classic rolling method that dates back to the early years of TTRPGs, 4d6 drop the lowest was designed to create adventurers who were 'a cut above the rest of the people'. There is still the full range from 3-18, but the likelihood of getting that 3 is drastically decreased, and those higher scores are just a bit more attainable. You can absolutely still roll a terrible set (as you can with any rolled method). This method is the basis for the Elite Array, a common pre-generated set of scores (15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8; 72 total) used in many character creation systems. The Elite Array works out to be exactly a 15 point buy in Paizo's point-based system. The goal to match the point buy and the Elite Array is why the total of this set is slightly below the theoretical total that average scores would yield of 73.5 (which would present more accurately as 16, 14, 13, 12, 10, 9). This alignment of the 3 most common character creation methods for Pathfinder and its forebears (3rd and 3.5 edition dnd) marks the basis for the power balance generally written into the game mechanics.
I will pause here to break down the three power tiers in the point buy system. Below you can view 6 sets each built using the corresponding point buy, starting with optimized to get an 18, and ending with the highest total ability scores.
15 point buy
Average: *. Six Score Avg Total: 66 - 75
18, 14, 10, 9, 8, 7 - 66
18, 12, 10, 10, 8, 8 - 66
17, 14, 10, 10, 9, 8 - 68
16, 14, 12, 10, 10, 8 - 70
15, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - 72 (Elite Array)
14, 13, 13, 12, 12, 10 - 74
13, 13, 13, 12, 12, 12 - 75
20 point buy
Average: *. Six Score Avg Total: 70 - 78
18, 15, 12, 10, 8, 7 - 70
18, 14, 10, 10, 10, 8 - 70
17, 14, 12, 12, 10, 8 - 73
16, 14, 14, 12, 10, 8 - 74
15, 14, 14, 13, 12, 8 - 76
14, 14, 13, 13, 12, 12 - 78
25 point buy
Average: *. Six Score Avg Total: 73 - 81
18, 16, 12, 10, 10, 7 - 73
18, 14, 13, 12, 10, 8 - 75
17, 14, 14, 12, 12, 8 - 77
16, 14, 14, 13, 12, 10 - 79
15, 14, 14, 14, 13, 10 - 80
14, 14, 14, 14, 13, 12 - 81
From the breakdowns above, it appears that the anticipated range of ability scores in Pathfinder would be for a total between 70 and 80 (min/maxing in a 15 pt buy not withstanding). Indeed, the close ranges overall show a gentle power shift between each tier, rather than the wide ranges that can be seen within a single rolling method.
1d10+7 @4, 18, 8. Focus & Foible
Average: 12.5 on rolls. Six Score Avg Total: 76.
This approach grants a boon in a a single maxed out ability score and a counterpoint in a 'flawed' ability score. Everything else is left with a random range of 8-17. Given that only a single die is cast for each score, there is no concentrated spread around the average, and you could easily roll 4 terrible, or 4 amazing, ability scores. It should be noted that the mandated 8, and the cap of 17 on the four rolled scores presents the first set that has a lower absolute maximum at 96 (instead of the standard 108). This is countered by a minimum range of 58 (some methods discussed have a minimum of 18, others of 48).
This is an example set at the Avg Total: 18,15,13,12,10,8
2d6+6. Heroic
Average: 13. Six Score Avg Total: 78.
The inclusion of the whole 6 in place of a 3rd rolled die shifts the range from 3-18 to 8-18, removing a major capacity of the ability score lower end range, and ensuring more 'heroic' characters whose flaws are far less detrimental. This built in protection is similar to the point buy system's restriction on going below an ability score of 7. And the use of 2d6 as opposed to the last method's 1d10 presents more likelihood of an ability score in the average range, as opposed to the random F/F method.
This is an example set at the Avg Total: 16,14,14,12,12,10
5d6, drop two lowest. High Fantasy.
Average: 13.5. Six Score Avg Total: 81.
This continues its loyalty to the Classic and Fantasy methods with a 3-18 range, while further elevating the chance of high scores while reducing the chance of low scores. With an average total at the high end of the 25 point buy, it is quite possible to roll some truly impressive sets in this method.
This is an example set at the Avg Total: 16,15,14,13,12,11
3d6+6, drop lowest. Champion
Average: 14.5. Six Score Avg Total: 87.
Taking the flat 6 from the Heroic method, and adding in the Fantasy method's extra die with a dropped low roll, the Champion method will start even most non-optimized character out with powerful ability scores. With an average roll granting a +2 modifier to each ability score, even a mathematically average character with this method will be exceptional (throw in racial mods, you likely end up with two +3's, three +2's, and a single +1). In addition, the three most common scores rolled are 14, 15, & 16, and you are more likely to roll an 18 than the chance to roll an 8, 9, or 10 combined.
This is an example set of the Avg Total: 17,16,15,14,13,12
Beyond those methods listed above, there are innumerable others. Three classic modifications include Reroll 1's, Roll a 7th Score (drop lowest), and Roll Two Sets (keep preferred), with each modification increasing the Average Ability Score and Average Set Total accordingly. The math could go on for days...
At the end of the day, I am happy to allow players to have some input into which method is used for the Recruitment. So, over the next twenty four hours, I am asking all interested parties to rank their top two methods (Preferred, Alternate) from the below Rolled Methods (I will backstop whichever method is selected with an appropriate point buy option). You are welcome to include one of the modifiers mentioned above if you'd like.
Fantasy
Focus & Foible
Heroic
High Fantasy
Champion
Let me hear your thoughts!
Champion preferred, Heroic alternate
One thing with rolling systems, the drop lowest should be optional. Sometimes it’s fun to have a super low stat to build around but I don’t like not having a chance at an 18.
Thas-a-lot of crunching.
At the risk of seeming like a power gamer, I'll still vote for the Champion as preferred as my class is semi-MAD. Plus, I enjoyed making a character with it, and I am pretty okay with any of the others. I'll just vote Heroic or high fantasy as an alternate. They are pretty tied in my mind.
I am going to include the 25-pt buy as an alternate as well, as it means I will not have a negative score on my build and actually balances it nicely between the two styles I'm intending to play the class as. And without sacrificing the capabilities in combat. I am interested to see what I roll though...
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I've only used 20 and 25 point buys in the past so I've no experience with the vagaries of rolling. I'm not a fan of dumping stats. My tendency is to take a lower high score on a stat to keep from having to put another one in the basement, even if it isn't important to the class. I'm also looking at Fighter, which is a little MAD with the options I have in mind.
1. Champion (Because if it's on offer, why not?)
2. 25 Point Buy (Because I'm sure I can get where I want to go for the character I have in mind with it.)
High Fantasy is my primary, followed by Champion.
I, like every gonzo player out there, like playing characters with high ability scores. It helps fit your visual of your character better (if it is a heroic game) and it helps for more interesting builds. It obviously also allows for really powerful characters as well. On the flip side, I know what it is to be the DM for a group that has nothing but +2 or better for stats. Your enemy spellcasters can't do the interesting spells that require saves and so you are forced to focus on the thing that does threaten the group; their hitpoints. Having low stats in something also does bring out a bit of the character too; I want my dwarf to be appropriately gruff regardless of their charisma. A negative would fit perfectly.
Wow, I have been sitting on a few ideas for Wrath of the Righteous! Currently that includes:
- a historian of the crusades (bard), perhaps an associate member of a knightly order.
- an older cleric (late middle age) who had served in an earlier crusade, but is now assigned to church duty, but the fall of Kenabres forces him to pick up the sword once again.
- a witch hunter (inquisitor) of Kenabres. Will he maintain the fires of purgation, or seek the more righteous path?
- a foreign dignitary in Kenabres at Armasse for political reasons, but obviously pulled into the frey for need of survival.
As for rolling methods, the last two sound fun for a short game, but potentially ridiculous for a 20 level campaign. The next step down still makes for superior stats without being comical. So, I vote for:
Preferred - Heroic
Alternate - Focus, Fable
I've only used the 20 point buys on here. It might be interesting to try something different. However, the Champion option may get ridiculous. If I had to vote, it would be High Fantasy, followed by a tie between Heroic and the 25 point buy.
Hey all, thanks to those who have already weighed in. I would like to remind everyone to please pick from the five listed rolled methods below (they are described in detail in the spoiler above). As I said before, I will already be putting a point buy option in place for those that are unhappy with their rolled ability scores. So have no fear, if the digital dice gods forsake you, you will not be running a toon with all single digit scores!
So, over the next twenty four hours, I am asking all interested parties to rank their top two methods (Preferred, Alternate) from the below Rolled Methods (I will backstop whichever method is selected with an appropriate point buy option). You are welcome to include one of the modifiers mentioned above if you'd like.
Fantasy
Focus & Foible
Heroic
High Fantasy
Champion
My preferences:
Champion
High Fantasy
This is the AP for the most powerful options.
I'd go for Champion and then High Fantasy.
If it's selectable,
Primary champion, alternative high fantasy/heroic.
Sorry about that. My choices will then be High Fantasy, with an alternative being Heroic.
High Fantasy, followed by Champion.
Short summary so far.
Fantasy 0
Focus & Foible 1
Heroic 8
High Fantasy 9
Champion 9
Champion.
Hi!
In all honesty, I've been having very few spare time recently, to the point of having to set most of my games aside. Not all, but most.
HOWEVER...
Given the AP, and the character I have in mind for this AP, I would truly make an effort. This is my favourite AP, as I love the "good folks fighting evil" thing and also being all crusaders (or mostly all).
This is the perfect AP for a hard-hitting, tough, powerful warrior, be it Fighter, Paladin, Warpriest, or anything similar, so that's what I would play, either being the muscle or joining a similar character to add up double muscle. That character, also, would help me by giving an excuse when some roleplay must be shorter than it should be.
This said, my personal preference on rolls goes to Champion first and High Fantasy second.
Well I'd hate to be the debby downer, and don't have strong feelings towards the totals (only really need 2 stats for the build I wanna do). So I'll support the common consensus and choose Champion and High Fantasy.
I would say High Fantasy first and Heroic second.
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We have hit the 24 hour mark, thank you all for your input. I ranked everyone's preferred method as worth 2 votes, and their alternate as 1. We ended up with the following ranking.
Fantasy (4d6 drop lowest) - 0 votes
Focus & Double (18, 8, 1d10+7 @4) - 2 votes
Heroic (2d6+6) - 10 votes
High Fantasy (5d6 drop 2 lowest) - 14 votes
Champion (3d6+6 drop lowest) - 21 votes
So, it looks like we have a clear winner. I may have opened a can of worms when I included that last option, But the people have spoken, and so it shall be! I will post a separate Recruitment thread in the next 24 hours.
***DO NOT START ROLLING ABILITY SCORES HERE***
Please wait for the recruitment thread.
I missed you by a few minutes but my input would only solidified things: Champion preferred, Heroic alternate. I look forward to the recruitment.
Thank you for running this.
So, it looks like we have a clear winner. I may have opened a can of worms when I included that last option, But the people have spoken, and so it shall be! I will post a separate Recruitment thread in the next 24 hours.
***DO NOT START ROLLING ABILITY SCORES HERE***
Please wait for the recruitment thread.
Despite your grace in including us in the voting process, I will still defer to your preference on rolls. I think you should count for 8+ votes worth as you are running the game and should feel comfortable doing so. Or just pull rank and do what you feel comfortable with using our votes as a general guideline ("Hang the code, and hang the rules. They're more like guidelines anyway!"). You know the challenges/monsters we will face. I have not played this before, so don't go off what I've voted for unless you truly wish to.
Oh, I have it, the perfect solution. Each each score is rolled a different method:
3d6
4d6 drop lowest
2d6+6
1d10+7
5d6 drop two lowest
3d6+6 drop lowest
= 9
DL = 15
= 13
= 14
D2L = 14
DL = 12
A 21 point buy. Ha, PERFECT!!!!
SmooshieBanana the game is going to need adjustments and updates regardless, so the players being more powerful... well, I will adjust accordingly. And I do have an idea to make it a bit interesting.
Oh, I have it, the perfect solution. Each each score is rolled a different method:
3d6
4d6 drop lowest
2d6+6
1d10+7
5d6 drop two lowest
3d6+6 drop lowest** spoiler omitted **
A 21 point buy. Ha, PERFECT!!!!
LOL, that is perfect.
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It is done. You are all welcome to apply at my recruitment, linked below.