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401 posts. Alias of Bill Mead.


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Meirril wrote:
Just a quick notion. OP could get a headband of intellect +2 with UMD as its skill. A fairly cheap solution. Alternatively the +2 int ioun stone would work as well, but its more expensive.

With this option, the skill selected scales with the character as the headband is attuned to a skill and has ranks in it equal to the level of the wearer. I would recommend Fly as the skill or taking a +4 option on the headband to get the second skill. Be advised that these ranks provided by the headband are not stackable with your character's ranks. Bonus, you also get a language for each +2.

In addition, it would not be out of the bounds of credulity to create a new magic item that increases a specific skill as there is already precedent for it. You would only need to compare the existing items to make the new one but it will require cooperation from your GM.

I also just remembered that there is a monster feat for improved flight, likely in a third party book as I am unable to find it on a Paizo site with a quick search.

Make your armor out of mithril to reduce the skill penalty (that is as expensive as a magic item for full plate).

Two points of clarification:

One, PFPGrognard has it right, up to the max spell you can cast, so not sure where the at or below six level OP mentioned is coming from.

Two, you must already know (possess) the metamagic feat you want to add. No phantom metamagic feats with this ability.

How you doin PRRPGrognard?

I would caution weighing options of the bloodline development/school understanding exploits. While they can be augmented, Arcanists are not full time sorcerers or wizards so they do not benefit from the full feature, only the low level abilities as pointed out by Melkiador's second assessment above.

I further recommend the second installment of Mythic Mania from Legendary Games as it includes Arcanist (among other classes) mythic class enhancements which may be more in tune with what you plan, should your group allow 3PP expansion books.

Chromantic Durgon <3 wrote:

Blood havoc doesn’t blend with an Arcanist

It only boosts bloodrager and sorcerer spells.

In addition to this correction, Potent Magic can only increase the caster level by 2. There is no greater version to make it more.

You can get an orange ioun stone to increase caster level by one more

Also, you will need the metamixing exploit in order to add a metamagic feat on the fly to a spell that is already enhanced by a metamagic feat when memorized (placed in a slot, however you want to word this), but it still costs the increase in spell slot and cannot be done if you are out of slots for the day at that level or do not have access to the spell level yet. You could also, or instead, use a metamagic rod, but only one rod per spell and it does not change the spell slot used.

Charge Special Attack wrote:
You must move before your attack, not after. You must move at least 10 feet (2 squares) and may move up to double your speed directly toward the designated opponent. If you move a distance equal to your speed or less, you can also draw a weapon during a charge attack if your base attack bonus is at least +1.

If the mount has been able to move at least 10 feet before the ready action interrupts, then the benefits and penalties of the charge are in play. The charging character will get an attack of opportunity when the moving character leaves 10 feet to get to 5 feet if and when it happens. There are ways for the moving character to prevent this, but that is not in the question. The charging character can then drop their lance after the AOO and draw a weapon so they can continue to fight the opponent that is now within the reach of the lance and still get their charge attack assuming they have a +1 BAB. The end result should be initiate charge and AOO when the opponent moves through threat range and then drop the lance to draw another weapon as part of movement and make the charge attack having completing the movement part of charge as the quarry is five feet away (unless you have feats to allow you to continue to move after the attack).

If you are prevented from moving 10 feet by the opponent's ready action, then there is no charge bonus or penalty, however, since the charge action was selected and started, you are stuck in its clauses. You will still get your AOO for the reach weapon, albeit without the charge bonus to damage. You can then drop the lance and draw a weapon to continue the fight as before.

Interrupting the charge at no time interferes with the AOO, it may only change the conditions under which the attack and damage modifiers are applied.

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That is quite the acrobatics number to survive all those +2s. Using the rule you quoted, strictly speaking, B is the result. However, it is not out of the bounds of credulity for a DM to rule A.

Professor wrote:
If a PC takes the Persistent Feat at 1st level and uses it on a understanding then is said spell takes up 2 spell slots higher. Does that mean a 1st level character can no longer cast the spell?

When casting a spell with metamagic for the arcane prepared spellcaster tradition (i.e. wizard, etc.), the spell is memorized as its own spell in an appropriate slot for the metamagic "penalty." I call it a penalty because the spell still acts in all cases as its normal spell level except which slot it takes. So, a first level spell augmented with any metamagic feat that is +1 level will take a level 2 memorized spell slot for the day. Since a first level character does not have second level spell slots, the wizard will not be able to do so until at least third level when the wizard is capable of memorizing second level spells. This in no way prevents the wizard from preparing the spell normally in a first level slot without benefit of the metamagic feat.

A spontaneous caster, such as a sorceror, does not memorize spells ahead of time, but has the option of applying a metamagic feat as a part of casting the spell. The drawback here (or penalty) is that it still takes a spell slot of the higher level as indicated by the metamagic feat, and it also increases the casting time as follows: a standard action spell is now a full round action and a full round action spell becomes a full round action plus another full round action, any spell that takes minutes or more to cast all add one additional full round action to the casting time. It should be stated that if the quicken metamagic feat is used, the extra rounds penalty is removed and the spell is still cast a as swift action. In this tradition, the spellcaster is not able to cast that first level spell with metamagic until fourth level when the spontaneous caster has access to second level spells so that the appropriate slot is available.

But you have bonus spell slots for a high spellcaster attribute you say? Those bonus slots are also not available until you can cast the appropriate level spells. The exception to this is if your spells per day/spells known chart has a 0 instead of a -, then you can use the bonus slots as the 0 gives the access, but with 0 normally available without a high attribute (confused yet?).

I have seen spell lists in published adventures for spontaneous casters in the past which list spells known with the metamagic feat already applied, however, I am currently unable to find the rule which allows it.

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Snap Shot wrote:
Benefit: A rogue with this talent may treat her initiative roll as a 20 for a surprise round, regardless of her initiative, but she may only take an attack action with a ranged weapon. Her normal initiative roll is used in subsequent rounds. If two or more rogues possess this talent, their initiative determines the order in which they act, but they all go before any other creature. If a rogue is prevented from acting in the surprise round, this talent has no effect.

As I read this there is no specific language that says the rogue always gets a surprise round. I lack the time to research, but if memory serves there is a talent, feat, trait, or something that does allow the possessor to get a surprise round every time. Rogues have many ways to achieve surprise to be granted action within a surprise round, so maybe the author assumed that would be the case more often than not. RAW, I do not see automatic surprise round in this talent.

I will also add that with the language of this talent, the rogue can take another action in the surprise round as normal by disregarding this talent should they choose to do something other than make a ranged attack. They would just function normally as in any other surprise round they are allowed to act in.

Screaminjim wrote:
Thedmstrikes wrote:
Screaminjim wrote:

1k base per 8 hour worktime x3 since they work nonstop x2 increased DC

x2 cooperative crafting x2 (at least)for planar timeflow shenanigans

Bolded to direct my question better, I was under the impression there was a limitation of only 8 hours a day toward crafting magic items. Accelerating progress within that time was permissible with a +5 DC but no more than double the rate.

Crafting Magic Items wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.
Here is the reference for my understanding, once again bolded for ease.

I can not find a reference specifically for the wright allowing more than it allows for a caster that doesn't have to sleep I was basing my 3x multiplier on the fact that they work continuously with no need for rest of any sort similar to an Unseen-Crafter

The Unseen Crafter can take 10 on Craft checks and can be assigned to work more quickly, as per the Craft rules. It also does not tire, allowing it work for 24 hours per day, tripling the rate of work However since although they can repair anything that falls under their assigned craft skill they dont actually get the ability to MAKE magic items we are lacking a RAW precedent. Run it by your GM and see where they stand with it

I am not quibbling, I actually had to look this up as I never heard of it. As it is from an Eberron source, that explains why I never heard of it. All that said, it is a spell and restricts the creation to a single item. This is where they break the norm with a special rule and hide it inside a spell.

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Screaminjim wrote:

1k base per 8 hour worktime x3 since they work nonstop x2 increased DC

x2 cooperative crafting x2 (at least)for planar timeflow shenanigans

Bolded to direct my question better, I was under the impression there was a limitation of only 8 hours a day toward crafting magic items. Accelerating progress within that time was permissible with a +5 DC but no more than double the rate.

Crafting Magic Items wrote:
The caster can work for up to 8 hours each day. He cannot rush the process by working longer each day, but the days need not be consecutive, and the caster can use the rest of his time as he sees fit.

Here is the reference for my understanding, once again bolded for ease.

Ben Walklate wrote:
I won’t pretend Ultimate Strongholds is somehow perfect (there are 3 materials missing from it, for example)...

Update? Expansion? SOON?

Y U tease us so...

I am not sure all of this is entirely accurate. In the initial response we have some numbers transposed, but that is small potatoes and I think everyone will pick up on that, but his view seems to be accurate as far as the overlapping goes.

Damage Reduction extract wrote:
If a creature has damage reduction from more than one source, the two forms of damage reduction do not stack. Instead, the creature gets the benefit of the best damage reduction in a given situation.

In the OP example, there are two different forms of DR. If the situation is you are fighting someone with adamantium weapons, then the best damage reduction for your situation is DR/evil. If fighting an evil creature then DR/adamantium is your best benefit (this is regardless of the numerical values as the situation dictates one of the DR types is useless, therefore not a benefit). If the opponent had neither evil alignment or adamantium, then the highest value of DR is your best benefit. Finally in the case of the Evil aligned adamantium weapon, your screwed because none of your DR types benefit you. None of this changes even if the number were the same.

Only one works at a time and that type is the one that benefits the character with the DR the most in each situation (i.e. they do not need to choose, it is automatic).

avr wrote:
The headaches of tracking the exact CL of items where it may vary from the standard suggest to me it'd be best to assume that magic items use the standard CL for their type, even when crafted by a wizard of below their base CL.

I recall a FAQ or post by a dev that mentioned this exact thing for crafters (it is too late tonight for me to search the internet for it). It is necessary to keep notes about crafted items that differ from their standard items. For example, a scroll of a first level spell with a third level caster effect would be something like: scroll of magic missile caster level 3, whereas all magic items without such notation are assumed to be (or defaulted to be if assume is a word you do not use) the minimum caster level needed to make the item in the first place (and since it is this topic of discussion I have to add) legitimately without lack of caster requirements (i.e. scroll of magic missile without notation that it is caster level 1).

I am sure this debate is on the boards somewhere, but there is also this passage which would indicate that the special requirement that is quoted above can be waived with the +5 DC:

Magic Item Creation wrote:
Note that all items have prerequisites in their descriptions. These prerequisites must be met for the item to be created. Most of the time, they take the form of spells that must be known by the item’s creator (although access through another magic item or spellcaster is allowed). The DC to create a magic item increases by 5 for each prerequisite the caster does not meet. The only exception to this is the requisite item creation feat, which is mandatory. In addition, you cannot create potions, spell-trigger, or spell-completion magic items without meeting its prerequisites.

bolded the relevant passage and included full text for context

However, it must also be noted that if you do not meet that requirement, then the weapon will have a lower save than a standard item, which can be bad if you run into things that affect items with spells or other effects.

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Anti magic shell

Had to work late, just getting through this. There is a difference between the ring and a buckler specific to spell casters (unless of course, they have nothing in the other hand) and that is if the hand wielding the buckler is used for an offensive purpose (attack, cast a spell, etc.) then the AC bonus drops for the round until your turn comes up again. My guess is that the game writers feel the hand is doing other things than protecting for that six seconds.

There is also the chance to enchant the buckler with additional bonuses and enhancements, while the ring is stuck with what it has.

I have no dog in this fight, I am just providing some references I was able to find:

cooperative casting wrote:
If the second character is providing a spell effect, that character’s spell is expended for the day, just as if you were using one of your own spells for a requirement. If the second character is a hired NPC, you must pay for the NPC’s spellcasting service for each day of the item creation.
more cooperative casting wrote:

Since different classes get access to certain spells at different levels, the prices for two characters to make the same item might actually be different. An item is only worth two times what the caster of the lowest possible level can make it for. Calculate the market price based on the lowest possible level caster, no matter who makes the item.

Not all items adhere to these formulas. First and foremost, these few formulas aren’t enough to truly gauge the exact differences between items. The price of a magic item may be modified based on its actual worth. The formulas only provide a starting point. The pricing of scrolls assumes that, whenever possible, a wizard or cleric created it. Potions and wands follow the formulas exactly. Staves follow the formulas closely, and other items require at least some judgment calls.

Harkon Dross: Born with natural arcane powers, Harkon's parents sent him away to an arcane college where his attitude and not so studious methods got him booted from the school. Harkon was always a larger than average lad, so he wandered down the street and observed another large and powerful man hurl a beggar from his church. Impressed with the man's physical ability, Harkon attended a sermon held by the priest of Gorum. The priest observed Harkon throughout the sermon and invited him to stay after and inquired about his intentions for the future. Since Harkon had not given much thought to his future yet, it was a small matter for the priest to convince him to heed the call of service to the church. Once again, Harkon's natural shortfalls kept him from pursuing a career as a priest, but all was not lost. The Gorumite observed Harkon's natural affinity and suggested he consider a paladin order as a way to serve still. This option sat well with Harkon and he excelled in personal combat with a two handed weapon. He even displayed some unconventional tricks by combining his arcane inclinations with his martial abilities shoring up some of his shortfalls. Harkon was released unto the world to go forth and combat evil with a final gift from his mentor, a holy relic of the church, his Greatsword which has a special affinity to damage undead. With his new weapon, purpose, and arcane tricks in hand, Harkon set forth from the city in pursuit of evil to vanquish. It was not long before he surged with pride from his accomplishments against the evil tide, proving once again his mortal flaws. Harkon eventually found his way near the vaunted Rappan Athuk, dungeon of graves and his pride set him forth to conquer its environs and extinguish the evil taint within. Harkon gathered a few companions of like mind from a nearby town and set forth to prove his worth under the watchful gaze of Gorum.

Sorry, it is late and I am short on time before the deadline. I can easily redo this given some more effort and I can piecemeal it into the game through stoic resistance to the prodding of other PCs until I have it crafted to perfection.

And here he is in his new and improved martial glory for your consideration as the shiny armor replacement:

Harkon Dross:
[ b]Horkon Dross of Gorum[/b]
Male Human Paladin (Holy Guide/Warrior of Holy Light) 8/Arcanist 4
Lawful Good Medium Humanoid
[ b]Init [/b]+3; [ b]Senses [/b]Normal; Perception +8 (+2 if underground)
[ b]Defense[/b]
[ b]AC [/b]19(23), touch 12, flat-footed 17(21) (+7 armor, (+4 Shield), +2 Dex)
[ b]hp [/b]68 (8D10+8+8)
[ b]Fort [/b]+13, [ b]Ref [/b]+10, [ b]Will [/b]+12
[ b]Resist [/b]Fear immunity (ally w/in 10' +4)
[ b]Offense[/b]
[ b]Speed [/b]30 ft.
[ b]Ranged [/b]Spell +10/5 (By Spell/x2)
[ b]Melee [/b]Greatsword +1 Bane (Undead) +13/+8 (2D6+6/19-20x2) +15/+10 (2D6+8+2D6/19-20x2){vs undead}
[ b]Melee [/b]{power attack} Greatsword +1 Bane (Undead) +10/+5 (2D6+15/19-20x2) +12/+7 (2D6+17+2D6/19-20x2){vs undead}
[ b]Melee [/b]Touch +10/5 (LoH/x2)
[ b]Special Attacks [/b](3/day) Smite Evil (+6 to hit, +8/16 damage), (14/day) Lay on Hands (4D6 vs undead DC 20)
[ b]Spell-Like Abilities [/b](At Will) Detect Evil, (14/day) Lay on Hands/Nimbus of Light (4D6 or +1 morale bonus and lesser restoration)
[ b]Arcanist Spells Prepared [/b](CL 6):
Level 0 (At Will) (DC 13)[ i]Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Spark, Drench, Disrupt Undead[/i]
Level 1 (5/day) (DC 14) [ i]Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Stunning Barrier, Mirror Image (SL), Shield (SL)[/i]
Level 2 (3/day) (DC 15) [ i]Burst of Radiance[/i]
[ b]Statistics[/b]
[ b]Str [/b]14(16), [ b]Dex [/b]14, [ b]Con [/b]12, [ b]Int [/b]15(17), [ b]Wis [/b]8, [ b]Cha [/b]20 (22)
[ b]Base Atk [/b]+8/3; [ b]CMB [/b]+12; [ b]CMD [/b]24
[ b]Feats [/b]Extra Reservoir, Extra Exploit (Metamixing), Extra Lay on Hands, Power Attack, Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Outflank
[ b]Traits [/b]Magical Knack, Armor Expert, Pride
[ b]Skills [/b]Climb (5), Fly (10), K. Dungeoneering (12), K. Local (10), K. Nature (12), K. Planes (12),
K. Religion (12), Perception (8) (+2 if underground), Spellcraft (11), Swim (5), Use Magic Device (10)
[ b]Languages [/b]Common, Abyssal, Infernal
[ b]SQ [/b]Divine Health, Channel Positive energy (4D6 DC 20), Divine Bond (Greatsword), Aura of Resolve (immune to charm, allies w/in 10' +4)
[ b]Other Gear [/b]Mithril Breastplate +1, Handy Haversack, Spell Component Pouch, Belt Pouch, Ink, Inkpen, Soap, Spellbook*, Grooming Kit*, Bedroll*, Messkit*,
Waterskin*, Trail Rations (10)*,Waterproof Bag*, Belt of Giant Strength +2, Headband of Mental Prowess +2 (Perception, Draconic), Cracked Dusty Rose Prism Ioun Stone,
Cracked Vermilion Rhomboid Ioun Stone, Cracked Incandescent Blue Sphere Ioun Stone (Perception), Spell Lattice (Mirror Image), Spell Lattice (Shield)
500 Gold*
[ b]Special Abilities[/b]
Favored Terrain (EX) (Underground +2)
[ b]Exploits (SU)[/b]
Reservoir Points 5/7
Dimensional Slide (40 feet), Metamagic (Still Spell)
Consume Spells (standard action gain reservoir points equal to level of spell sacrificed)
(class says all cantrips, but traveling spellbook has only Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Acid Splash, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Spark, Drench,
Disrupt Undead, and Ray of Frost)
1st: Magic Missile, Ear Piercing Scream, Protection from Evil, Floating Disk, Enlarge Person, Shield, Vanish, Air Bubble, Stunning Barrier, Mirror Image
2nd: Burst of Radiance, Glitterdust

I only took the two archetypes because I wanted to dump divine spells and mercies. FCB all went to HP.

I got all the way through as a sword and shield before I realized, he cannot cast spells without dropping the shield...will need to retask as a two hander...updating for tomorrow

I can offer that if selected, I can find a way to add the spell to my spellbook...Casting arcane spells will not be my strong suit anyway...

I have made a couple of updates to my submission, most notably, I have switched around a couple of my stats after better consideration of my abilities and have actually added in my human racial bonus (+2) which I inadvertently left off before. Final submission to come in tomorrow night, I still gotta spend that last bit o'cash..

Also, to confirm, we are using Lost Lands, Golarion, or some other pantheon?

Figures...I get a good roll and I cannot use it...

some hit points: 8d10 ⇒ (7, 8, 9, 9, 2, 7, 3, 9) = 54 and a


[ b]Shiney Plate[/b]
Male Human Paladin (Holy Guide/Warrior of Holy Light) 8/Arcanist 4
Lawful Good Medium Humanoid
[ b]Init [/b]+5; [ b]Senses [/b]Normal; Perception +7 (+2 if underground)
[ b]Defense[/b]
[ b]AC [/b]22, touch 11, flat-footed 21 (+7 armor, +4 Shield, +1 Dex)
[ b]hp [/b]78 (8D10+16+8)
[ b]Fort [/b]+11, [ b]Ref [/b]+7, [ b]Will [/b]+10
[ b]Resist [/b]Fear immunity (ally w/in 10' +4)
[ b]Offense[/b]
[ b]Speed [/b]30 ft.
[ b]Ranged [/b]Spell +9/4 (By Spell/x2)
[ b]Melee [/b]Longsword +1 +13/8 (1d8+4/19-20x2)
[ b]Melee [/b]Touch +9/4 (LoH/x2)
[ b]Special Attacks [/b](3/day) Smite Evil, Lay on Hands (4D6 vs undead DC 23)
[ b]Spell-Like Abilities [/b](At Will) Detect Evil, (13/day) Lay on Hands/Nimbus of Light (4D6 or +1 morale bonus and lesser restoration)
[ b]Arcanist Spells Prepared [/b](CL 6):
Level 0 (At Will) (DC 14)[ i]Detect Magic, Light, Open/Close, Spark, Drench, Disrupt Undead[/i]
Level 1 (5/day) (DC 15) [ i]Enlarge Person, Protection from Evil, Stunning Barrier[/i]
Level 2 (3/day) (DC 16) [ i]Burst of Radiance[/i]
[ b]Statistics[/b]
[ b]Str [/b]14(16), [ b]Dex [/b]13, [ b]Con [/b]12(14), [ b]Int [/b]16(18), [ b]Wis [/b]8, [ b]Cha [/b]18 (20)
[ b]Base Atk [/b]+8/3; [ b]CMB [/b]+11; [ b]CMD [/b]22
[ b]Feats [/b]Extra Reservoir, Extra Exploit (Metamixing), Extra Lay on Hands, Improved Initiative, Shield Focus, Outflank
[ b]Traits [/b]Magical Knack, Armor Expert, Pride
[ b]Skills [/b]Climb (5), Fly (9), K. Dungeoneering (14), K. Local (10), K. Nature (14), K. Planes (14),
K. Religion (14), Perception (7) (+2 if underground), Spellcraft (11), Swim (5), Use Magic Device (11)
[ b]Languages [/b]Common, Abyssal, Infernal, Celestial
[ b]SQ [/b]Divine Health, Channel Positive energy (4D6 DC 23), Divine Bond (Longsword) Aura of Resolve (immune to charm, allies w/in 10' +4)
[ b]Other Gear [/b]Mithril Breastplate +1, Mithril Heavy Shield +1, Handy Haversack, Spell Component Pouch, Belt Pouch, Ink, Inkpen, Soap, Spellbook*, Grooming Kit*,
Bedroll*, Messkit*, Waterskin*, Trail Rations (10)*,Waterproof Bag*, Belt of Physical Might +2, Headband of Mental Prowess +2 (Perception, Draconic)
1.6K GP
[ b]Special Abilities[/b]
Favored Terrain (EX) (Underground +2)
[ b]Exploits (SU)[/b]
Reservoir Points 5/7
Dimensional Slide, Metamagic (Still Spell)
(class says all cantrips, but traveling spellbook has only Read Magic, Detect Magic, Light, Acid Splash, Mage Hand, Mending, Open/Close, Spark, Drench,
Disrupt Undead, and Ray of Frost)
1st: Magic Missile, Ear Piercing Scream, Protection from Evil, Floating Disk, Enlarge Person, Reduce Person, Vanish, Air Bubble, Stunning Barrier, Detect Secret Doors
2nd: Burst of Radiance, Glitterdust

not quite a final submission, but I am super happy with the HP roll. Maneuverability is key for this guy, but he is not a totally efficient killing machine. Missing the cash needed to get Bane, but at least he can Holy his weapon several times a day. All favored class bonus went to HP. Also, still have 1.6K gold remaining to spend or carry over to help with some crafting costs later on? Suggestions are welcome.

Let's see what I have to work with:

4d6 ⇒ (5, 4, 4, 5) = 18
4d6 ⇒ (2, 4, 3, 3) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 3, 6, 1) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (3, 1, 4, 6) = 14

4d6 ⇒ (1, 4, 2, 5) = 12
4d6 ⇒ (2, 6, 1, 2) = 11
4d6 ⇒ (6, 1, 2, 4) = 13
4d6 ⇒ (6, 4, 5, 6) = 21

I am so very average with online dice, point buy it is

I am in, looking to take the place of the tall knight in shining the second class open? I has a crazy idea to make a Paladin/Arcanist...

I see two technical errors:

You give up your exploits at level 1, 3, 9, and 15 and magical supremacy [build shows an exploit at level 1].

The phoenix bloodline archtype forbids taking the bloodline development exploit [build shows the bloodline development exploit at level 1].

These can both be fixed by taking a feat at level 1 for extra exploit or waiting to level 5 and taking the familiar exploit. Then resequence your feats.

A blink effect will allow you to have a 50% miss chance from each shot. However, you also have a 20% chance to miss with all of your attacks that are not AOE.

LordKailas wrote:
Agénor wrote:

I appreciate the exemples you have developped. They encompass the issue quite well.

I disagree with you. The two situations you have described should have the same rule.

This seems to be our fundamental disagreement. For the enjoyment of the game the rule needs to change based on the particulars of the situation. If you're demanding that the rules be consistent between the two pairs of senarios I've presented I only see two options that are reasonable.

1. If a creature is "riding" some mode of transport, whether it be a horse, a coach or a ship. Then that creature must obey the mounted combat rules.

2. Find a ruleset for a d20 system that better addresses the combat situation. Special rules that only apply during say a chase (eg paizo's chase deck). Special rules that only apply during ship to ship combat (eg d20 starwars ship combat).

applying the mounted combat rules to only characters on horseback creates an unbalanced situation if similar modes of transport don't suffer from similar restrictions.

What about chariots?
What about PC Druids that are polymorphed into mounts with other PCs on their backs?
What about 2 characters on the same mount?

as you can see as soon as you limit the mounted combat rules to a single rider on an animal they are controlling, it leaves the door wide open for exploitation.

If you think the mounted combat rules are stupid and should be completely disregarded, as a DM you can do that. Just don't expect all DMs to share your view.

If mounted combat rules should apply to similar situations (eg chariots) at what point do those rules no longer apply?

So, not to keep beating this dead horse, but I did point out the vehicle rules which covers all things not mounted previously in this thread. Specifically, it had chariots as an example vehicle. If I had to choose between two sets of rules that were closest to this situation because it is not specifically covered, I would default to the vehicle rules as my baseline over the mounted rules.

I have a nice little surprise for those ogres if they stay penned up in that room when my turn comes around

As I read through this today, the word vehicle rang some bells in my memory, so I did a quick search for pathfinder vehicle rules (using those exact words will get you the same ruleset). Ultimate Combat has them and there are some sample vehicles included, such as a chariot, to extrapolate how to apply them to anything not riding an actual animal. That said, Floating Disk is a spell so it stretches the bounds of the ruleset to consider it propulsion via magic (however flying carpet would not so as it describes its method of propulsion as the spell overland flight, but is not the spell). In addition, it is conspicuously quiet on what an "occupant" of a vehicle can do, here is the passage: All occupants except for crew members and creatures used for propulsion can take actions and threaten areas as regular creatures. Crew members can take no actions nor threaten areas—their actions and concentration are all consumed by the act of providing propulsion or upkeep for the vehicle.

As best as I can parse this, occupants are unaffected by the movement of the vehicle since they can "take actions". When I consulted the ride skill it only affects characters (PC or NPC) that are riding animals (it says so in the description) so that is not much help. However the wording of mounted combat and the associated feats indicate that it also only applies as the skill, only to characters (PC or NPC) which are riding animals (it even specifies a penalty for "unsuitable" animals to ride in the skill). There is one notable difference between ride/mounted combat and occupants on a vehicle: the occupants on a vehicle do not need to split any of their attention between controlling their mount as an action, in fact it goes out of its way to specify they are not penalized at all unless they are driving or crewing a vehicle.

Final note, Floating Disk is a spell and that allows it to fall outside of the conventional rules for hitching a ride since it does not have any references to ride/mounted movement. Given the lack of specific rules covering this situation and that the spell does not include verbiage allowing a rider (just limited by the weight), I am inclined to lean in the camp of riders have full actions when their turn in the initiative comes up (the spell provides the restrictions which cover its movement), but that is me and I try to stick to RAW modified by RAI when it makes more sense than not and not specifically pointed out.

The PC would also need to spend an initial move action at some point to mount the flying disk...

and I have personally seen the schtick of throwing a PC via telekinetic charge at bad guys to be a really good maneuver, especially since the wizard does even need to get close to the action for it to be effective and it has a much greater range in a single round than tooling around behind the wiz as he moves at 30 feet and then the disk has a problem keeping up in the round.

Just trying to keep the facts straight for your analysis...

willuwontu wrote:

To try to understand the not-RAW position, I need to ask a couple questions.

If you treat the disc as a mount, do you move it on the caster's initiative or the rider's?

Does the rider move the disk, or does the caster?

I believe, upon reflection, that I would change my position vis-a-vis mounted attack. I have several reasons, listed in any order:

mounted attacks allow for a couple of circumstantial options that could not be done on a floating disk since the "rider" of the disk has zero control of its movement

the caster will have to either move themselves or spend an action to move the disk plus rider, but the rider will not act in concert with the disk like mounted riders do and the caster is restricted to a single move action with the disk by RAW negating the option to "charge" (remember that you are only allowed to charge as a standard action if you are restricted from making full round actions, but not if you choose to restrict yourself, such as in this case to prevent the spell from ending)

if the caster somehow makes him/herself large sized, then the trick will not work well since the disk follows the caster (placing the disk behind the caster during movement) unless the caster moves past the target and likely incurring AOOs

using mounted rules in combination with this spell is not RAW and I support that more

I could be convinced that while on a disk that is floating about three feet off the ground as a stable platform that the rider would qualify for the higher ground attack bonus of +1 (and would probably rule this way in my own game)

Hey Chemlak,
I saw that you upgraded to the queen level...any thoughts on what you are submitting yet? I got some recent medical bills to sort before I can commit to the KS and maybe I might just be fishing for ideas and such...

While this is a useful trick for low level (I fully support the mounted combat stipulation), there is a spell called telekinetic charge (level 4) that can let the PC make an attack when he arrives during the Arcanist's turn. See the spell description below:

Telekinetic Charge wrote:
You telekinetically launch an ally across the battlefield to anywhere within this spell’s range. While moving, your ally is flying just above the ground unless you wish otherwise. Movement from this spell provokes attacks of opportunity as normal, although you can lift your ally over objects or out of enemy reach, as long as your ally remains within this spell’s range. If your ally lands adjacent to an opponent, he can spend an immediate action to make a melee attack against that opponent with a +2 bonus on the attack roll.

I am drafting a short intro to explain Alan's arrival. It will end at the beginning of the current round. Nothing to in depth, but it will give me placement for when Alana's turn comes up in combat.

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I too have been using Dragons to terrifying effect for about the same amount of time. The best thing I find is to create a theme for the dragon, breath weapon is awesome, flight is its dominant arena for fighting, etc. and go to town making a player character for the DM that will give the PCs hell. It does little to research for hints on this because all dragons fly, or use breath weapons, etc. What the PCs cannot gather is how much of something a dragon is optimized for until they encounter it at least once. Always try to think out of the box too, just like PCs. Pump up an intimidate skill once or twice and make them cower not from fear, but from respect in the dragons presence, even though they are trying to fight it and take its loot. how many times have PCs tried to use skills to their advantage against unoptimized NPCs?

If you make a mistake and the PCs are having too easy a time of it, run away. Maybe they just found your fake lair and there is not much there to loot and while they spent valuable time searching for it, the dragon escaped to the real lair and is recuperating and thinking about how to improve its dismal performance before taking them on again. There are so many things to make them challenging without using Dbag tricks or using stuff to make them better which the PCs will get to keep after they defeat one. I am always open to assist rookie DMs, so send a message with you plea for help and I will be happy to assist...

D20PFSRD Moment of Prescience wrote:
This spell grants you a sixth sense. Once during the spell’s duration, you may choose to use its effect. This spell grants you an insight bonus equal to your caster level (maximum +25) on any single attack roll, combat maneuver check, opposed ability or skill check, or saving throw. Alternatively, you can apply the insight bonus to your AC against a single attack (even if flat-footed). Activating the effect doesn’t take an action; you can even activate it on another character’s turn. You must choose to use the moment of prescience before you make the roll it is to modify. Once used, the spell ends. You can’t have more than one moment of prescience active on you at the same time.

A caster level check is its own thing and has a DC set by the target. It is one of the hardest checks to get bonuses to. Moment of Prescience does not list caster level check as one of its instances when it works.

D20PFSRD stealth wrote:
Your Stealth check is opposed by the Perception check of anyone who might notice you. Creatures that fail to beat your Stealth check are not aware of you and treat you as if you had total concealment. You can move up to half your normal speed and use Stealth at no penalty. When moving at a speed greater than half but less than your normal speed, you take a –5 penalty. It’s impossible to use Stealth while attacking, running, or charging.

If a character is doing nothing but hiding, there is no penalty. If the character moves up to half their base speed and are either already in stealth mode or attempt to go into stealth mode, there is no penalty. If the character moves more than half their base speed for a single action, then the character will receive a minus five to their stealth result.

An example with a normal human and no special abilities has a base speed of 30. If that human exceeds 15 feet of movement in a round when the human is attempting to hide in stealth, then that human will take a -5 penalty to that result.

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Now I am even happier about getting this included in the Mythic Mania two Hero's Compendium! Thanks End!

Legendary Games publishes some good expansion content to Ultimate Campaign. Also, there is a second edition product called Den of Thieves which details a thieves guild that you could use as a template for the rooms or inspiration for creating your own. WOTC was allowing free download of the PDFs for these older edition books at some time in the past, but I do not know if they still do as I no longer follow their websites.

Franklin W. Cain wrote:

As I do not yet have this book, I do not know what official terms should be used, so I'll be speaking mostly in-character, if you will.

I was also thinking of investing surplus gold into one or mote business ventures, but not so much as a way of generating income, so much as a way of securing permanent bases of operation for my character. Specifically, I've been thinking of investing in an inn (not a tavern). Having a stake in on or more hostels (in different locations, one would presume) would give the character an assured save haven in which to rest. In my case, I would view the profits as being "gravy" if you will or "icing on the cake" more so than the reason for the enterprise.

Do these rules allow for the continuation of the business enterprise in the absence of the character? That is, if one has a trusted agent to run the operation, could the business venture keep going? (And again, please remember that in my case, my primary reason for this is to have a guaranteed safe haven, not so much a source of money.)


Yes, there is a section about hiring a manager to run the business.

Steve Geddes wrote:
blahpers wrote:

Cool, thanks.

Level five, eh? Gonna have to think about how that works seeing as how the players will likely rotate in and out a lot and have characters with different experience levels. Wonder why it starts at 5th level? Was the concept simply not realizable if the initial areas of the dungeon itself were 1st level? I'd like to have something to do if a bunch of new players arrive around the same time with lower level characters, and I'd like that thing to not violate the open table invariant. (Not all players are expected to have sufficient system mastery to just roll a 5th level character from the get-go.)

It grew out of a first edition dungeon - which was intended not for starting characters but as somewhere to go once they had a few levels under their belt.

That said, they've been adding low level content to it over the last few years - there's basically one entry designed for starting characters and the "Rappan Athuk Expansion Volume One" includes some low level content set in the areas around the dungeon.

Harking back to the 1st edition roots - the concept you mention here of "the initial areas of the dungeon itself" is not strictly appropriate. There are many entrances - some well known and some less so. Each of them deposit the players in areas of differing levels of difficulty (the most famous being "down the well" is definitely not for new PCs). It really is a sandbox in which you're expected to always be ready to run away if you blunder into something beyond your level.

My experience with it is solely using AD&D rules (so I guess they may have pathfinderized it in approach, rather than just translating stat blocks) however, my understanding is that they tried to preserve the feel - which means battles are not always strictly "level appropriate". It's an important thing for the players to know, in my experience - years of playing 3.5 has conditioned some of my players to the view that "if we encounter it, we're expected to be able to beat it" and that...

Yes, the new low level material is mostly in "expansion volume one" and it also leads into the dungeon once you wander all the way through it. That said, when they updated it through the editions, it did not change, only the stat blocks and other necessary rules updates. Which means there are a couple of things that will when encountered. No spoilers, but when you read through it, keep in mind that it burgeoned from an older edition when some encounters would have been a different experience just because of a particular spell or environment that changed along the way.

blahpers wrote:
Since I've never run RA and have been looking into options for running an open table: Does RA lend itself well to that? What's the expected level for characters starting out in the place? I'm assuming that it's higher than 1st given that everybody always talks about what to do before the dungeon.

Yes, the core adventure is a minimum level five to enter the dungeon without true risk of TPK. The biggest trick to drop in gaming would be restocking the dungeon each time they go back through areas they have "cleared". The dungeon has been successfully killing PCs for generations, so the monsters have to be replenished somehow...

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Did someone just Summon THEDMSTRIKES?

I is running Slumbering Tsar these one was interested in testing out the Dungeon of Graves...cowards...errr... smart players... Anyway, to answer your original question:

If you are okay doing your own converting, I believe the 3.5 set of three PDFs are available free (or at least they have been giving them away on the last couple of kickstarter campaigns). Bear in mind this thing has been converted from edition to edition, so there are a couple of things that did not translate as well as they were originally intended (darkness spell ambush, I am looking at you!). The original book(s) are a minimum of level five just to get through the front door (so to speak). In answer, they developed the Expansion, which includes something called the Mouth of Doom, which lets the PCs start off at first level without TPKing on the first encounter. It may or may not also contain a couple o side entrances to the main dungeon too. There are also some one off dungeon levels that are nice to have, but nowhere near critical for the (what passes for a) story line and certain pathfinder expanded rules, such as kingdom building, horror (surprisingly), and others are not supported by content as is, so you will have to find conversion points to integrate it all. Between the main book and the expansion, there is a good deal of fleshed out above ground material so you do not need to do a lot of random encounters initially. Most of the addendums, like the specific RA bestiary are not worth your effort as it is nothing more than extracts from the main book or expansions. If you decide to make it a campaign, then as mentioned it can be placed in borderland provinces, but it is actually not that far from Bard's Gate in the lost lands and there are a couple of full on adventures that are located nearby, including Slumbering Tsar. In fact if you check out their discord (tenkar's tavern) someone recently posted a map that shows where the different published works are in the area. Finally, the Tome of Horrors books mentioned above are nice to have, but are in excess of 600 pages combined, so it is a heavy lift and not really necessary since the stats for anything other than pathfinder bestiary monsters have full stats in the books (at least once, so the tomes can help with page flipping). Got any specific questions? Spoiler requests (PM me)?

Meirril wrote:
I think its more of a case that Ride By was intended for players, and Fly By was intended for monsters. The last monster I delt with that had Fly By was a dragon. The dragon has Fly 200. Just how unfair would that be if it didn't provoke AoO? Most flying PCs can't catch up to the dragon if it decides to position itself 100 away at the end of each run. Leaving in the AoO makes things more fair for players, and since this is a feat that will be commonly assigned to monsters its made that way.

Also note that many flying creatures are also larger than medium size, thus likely have reach as well. Consider the dragon in your example, fly 100 feet with a 10 foot reach (staying outside of AOO range of a PC) make the attack and fly away for another 100 feet. I have never used this combination of abilities against my PCs, nope, not me, never...

To be clear, you can only use the ability once per spell and it only affects the DC or the caster level, not both at the same time. The example you provided is accurate.

I would be happy to take a stab at starting the Wyrm AP off while you are working on other stuffs. I am sure there is something a little more than an idea to work with. Especially if I can work in some mythic stuff and some Ultimate stuff along the way...I only need one month to finish up my requirements for work (damn certifications...)

Chemlak is the definitive expert on these rules outside of the original writers. If he thinks a house rule looks good, then it is good.

The rule set is unfortunately silent on the subject of AOOs against riders. Bear in mind that if your mount is not trained for combat, that means a lot of ride checks in combat. Cover is listed as an option, but it prevents you from doing anything while the mount moves, costs you an immediate action (presumably during the mounts movement action) and then a move action to right yourself at the beginning of your turn (since you are prevented from doing any actions while in the "cover" position). What is clear is the mount is using a move action and that triggers an AOO from anything that threatens against it.
There is always the possibility of making a ready action to attack the wizard as he rides through a threatened area.
Everything else becomes house rule territory (to include adopting 3.5 rule augmentations).
One could create a case citing the special rule of the rider adopting the AC penalty and attack bonus of a charge initiated by the mount.

Last I checked trait bonuses do not stack and since both of these traits modify the same bonus (the Fireball spell), then they should not stack. Pick a second spell and you could have both at one trait each. Note: I have not read all the arguments about this, but it seems pretty clear.

In answer to the OP, Fireball is level 3 spell (fifth level caster as wizard, 3rd level slot), daze changes it to level 6 (11th level wizard, 6th level slot), then modified back down to level 5 with a trait (9th level wizard, fifth level slot). Sill a hell of a combo if you can get the DCs up there and as a reminder, those DCs remain at the original starting number of the spell level and do not get modified by metamagic (except for heighten spell which actually changes the level of the spell).

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