Seriously I've been racking my brain over this for weeks. You'd think a free archetype feat at level 1 would give them a serious edge but there's so few level 2 feats worth the -con you have to deal with, especially in Paizo APs with their fort saves every three steps. Now granted most of my brainstorming has been over my "Samurai Elf" concept but still, it's really frustrating when every build I come up with is done better by a half-elf than a full-blooded elf.
The only place to look would be in the Elf heritages. Most, if not all, of the Elf ancestry feats can be had from the half-elf heritage.
I agree that the archetype at level 1 that you get from Ancient Elf is somewhat lacking. Either underpowered or overestimated on these forums.
And scanning through the heritage list for Elf, I am not seeing anything that jumps out at me as being overly fantastic.
On the other hand, how hard is it to still end up with at character with decent CON when picking full Elf heritage? I was under the impression that you could generally still get any final stat array that you wanted no matter the ancestry. Choice of class limits which stat you can get max ability score in. But I wasn't aware of any limits on what you could get a 16 in for any ancestry. Though I could be wrong on that. I haven't looked in to it fully.
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On the other hand, how hard is it to still end up with at character with decent CON when picking full Elf heritage? I was under the impression that you could generally still get any final stat array that you wanted no matter the ancestry. Choice of class limits which stat you can get max ability score in. But I wasn't aware of any limits on what you could get a 16 in for any ancestry. Though I could be wrong on that. I haven't looked in to it fully.
You can put your bonus stat into con for a +0 and then use voluntary flaw to start with a +2 con from race: so you can get a 16 starting con on an elf. [+2 race, +2 background, +2 from your four more ability boosts at end of creation]
Aren't voluntary flaws an optional rule?
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Aren't voluntary flaws an optional rule?
You can do them optionally, but they aren't an optional rule. That is to say, it's always available baseline, but you don't need to do them.
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Aren't voluntary flaws an optional rule?
They are optional, as in you can but don't have to, but there isn't an "optional rule" rule. There are variant rules and subsystems, which are optional and rules but never defines as optional rules. As far as I know, voluntary flaws are always an option unless the DM overrides things.
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Huh, okay so the con penalty is less of a deal than I thought it was. When I saw OPTIONAL on the archives of Nethys I assumed it meant optional rule you had to get GM permission for.
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Starting with a move speed of 35.
Multiclassing when you want your lvl 2 class feat.
Starting with Darkvision
Taking any of the other versatile heritages
Here is the currently draft of the build skeleton for my Elven Spellsinger (Ranger/Bard) that's an ancient elf.
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I mean if you put your third boost into CON then it's literally the same stat array as a Half-Elf that went Dex/Int.
Otherwise, if you're willing to accept the con penalty then Elves can start with str/dex/int boosts which is quite relevant for a few classes (Investigators come to mind).
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Elves are super good. Dex is definitely a better stat than Con for light armored characters in my opinion, so I'm a big fan of that trade off. There are enough elf feats that are incredible so that I don't think there's a very painful opportunity cost.
Ancient Elves are really critical for some builds. Bards and Illusionist Wizards, for example, really don't want to have to spend a feat on an archetype because they have level 2 feats they really want to take, but they will take feats from an archetype if they get one from Ancient Elf. I'm a big fan of the Mobility feat from Rogue on both of those classes, and the light armor and other proficiencies from Rogue helps the Wizard immensely in the early levels. Ancient Elves are probably the strongest ancestry option for a lot of builds. I don't think you can ask for anything more than that from a build option.
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Anything using things like Ancestral Linguistics or Ancestral Longevity is also a factor, since those are really kinda limited to true elves. While half-elves can get that old, that starts actually becoming old characters, which limits concepts.
Anything using things like Ancestral Linguistics or Ancestral Longevity is also a factor, since those are really kinda limited to true elves. While half-elves can get that old, that starts actually becoming old characters, which limits concepts.
I don't see it as too limiting: 100 for them is 60 for a human and you can easily have your character look younger do to elven blood. If fact, it can open as many concepts as it might close especially since getting older doesn't affect your stats so there is plenty of room to start that bucket list after the kids are grown and you passed off the business.
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Another thing in favor of elves, they can select a versatile heritage while Half Elves can't.
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Fit in with elvish society
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I mean if you put your third boost into CON then it's literally the same stat array as a Half-Elf that went Dex/Int.
Otherwise, if you're willing to accept the con penalty then Elves can start with str/dex/int boosts which is quite relevant for a few classes (Investigators come to mind).
Yeah, boosts to intelligence and dexterity and another free boost are great for certain MAD builds. Outwit Rangers, alchemists, a witch or wizard who wants to do face or wisdom stuff, etc.
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Speed is a big factor, starting with 30 speed is huge and can easily become 40 at lvl 3 necessary to outspeed the land speed of like 80% of the bestiary.
And if you were going only after elf feats it means that Half-Elf have one less feat or heritage compared to a full elf because you used the heritage to being able the select the elf feats in first place.
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Elves get crazy good access to innate spells that put nice offensive cantrips on cha based casters, which is nice for occult and divine casters.
Ancient elf is a better natural ambition for multiclass characters
Elves move a bit faster, and if you know how to use positioning, you can compensate for lower hp
Half elf locks you out of versatile heritage
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Other than Multitalent or any build that needs neither Dex nor Int, I'd argue an Elf with Adopted Ancestry (Human) is much better than a half-elf.
My Elf sorcerer was pretty happy for the free Rogue dedication at level 1 giving light armor and more skills.
Elves get crazy good access to innate spells that put nice offensive cantrips on cha based casters, which is nice for occult and divine casters.
I thought about this one but humans also "get crazy good access to innate spells" too so a 1/2 elf gets 2x the "crazy good. A humans arcane tattoos and dragon spit get you most of what you'd want out of cantrips. Plus they get Adapted Cantrip for non-cha casters looking for an off list cantrip. Elves do get Elemental Wrath which is cool as it gets you both an option of damage types and replaces normal components with verbal only.
Other than Multitalent or any build that needs neither Dex nor Int, I'd argue an Elf with Adopted Ancestry (Human) is much better than a half-elf.
There is Round Ears for those that want to look full human for some reason.
I haven't found the fortitude save problem to be as big as elven propensity to die from massive damage and death effects. But the speed boost can be a pretty big deal and even if you start with 8 CON you can get to 16 at level 20. You just pretty much have to commit to boosting con and canny accumen to keep up your fort or the odds are pretty high that you will see your character die eventually. Of course if you make to about mid game, death doesn't have to be the end anyway.
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Half elf locks you out of versatile heritage
I think that might be the big one. And an elf with a heritage is going to get to dark vision pretty easily, since it starts with low light vision. The heritage itself is likely going to bring it there automatically.
In that case, you can end up with dark vision, a cantrip, 35 speed, and temporary wings pretty easily by level 9 as a tiefling.
Elf with Dex/Int/Con vs Half Elf with Dex/Int comes down to 5 speed vs 2 hp and access to human feats vs whatever the elf's heritage gives. 2 flat HP clearly has some serious diminishing returns as a campaign goes on and the second really depends on what you're looking for. But also worth keeping in mind that if you really want a human feat, you can gain access with a general. Things like darkvision are a lot harder to poach.
The real advantage for the human half-elf is that since both their boosts are free they can be more flexible, while the Elf is going to feel a little bit bad if they pick a class that doesn't value Int... but at the same time that's going to be true of any fixed-boost ancestry (although you could argue it's slightly worse than for some races given Int's position in the game).
But also worth keeping in mind that if you really want a human feat, you can gain access with a general.
Or you can get it from your background if you use Deep Backgrounds.
I personally prefer the 3 boosts/1 flaw ancestries, I can live with only 12 Con just by playing a bit more careful. Being able to deploy a third boost is worth a lot to me.
For me, it really matters what the flaw is. I'm ok if it's int, cha or str [unless it's the main stat] but a save stat I don't really like to drop them if I can help it.
A humans arcane tattoos and dragon spit get you most of what you'd want out of cantrips.
A half-Varisian/Thassilonian half-Tien half-elf???
A humans arcane tattoos and dragon spit get you most of what you'd want out of cantrips.A half-Varisian half-Tien half-elf???
I guess you could but I thought of a Tian-Dan ethnicity with a New Thassilon nationality.
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Live past 150 years.
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Live past 150 years.
SHOTS FIRED !
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Half elf locks you out of versatile heritageI think that might be the big one. And an elf with a heritage is going to get to dark vision pretty easily, since it starts with low light vision. The heritage itself is likely going to bring it there automatically.
In that case, you can end up with dark vision, a cantrip, 35 speed, and temporary wings pretty easily by level 9 as a tiefling.
I'm ngl, I kinda hate how common darkvision is, but thats a different tangent. But if you do want it, a versatile heritage is just objectively better than a heritage that grants darkvision, and humans simply can't get that
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Be a tiefling
I'm ngl, I kinda hate how common darkvision is, but thats a different tangent. But if you do want it, a versatile heritage is just objectively better than a heritage that grants darkvision, and humans simply can't get thatHalf elf locks you out of versatile heritageI think that might be the big one. And an elf with a heritage is going to get to dark vision pretty easily, since it starts with low light vision. The heritage itself is likely going to bring it there automatically.
In that case, you can end up with dark vision, a cantrip, 35 speed, and temporary wings pretty easily by level 9 as a tiefling.
It's not too hard to get darkvision on that 1/2 elf: Elf Atavism for the cavern elf's darkvision.
It's not too hard to get darkvision on that 1/2 elf: Elf Atavism for the cavern elf's darkvision.
I mean, it's not hard to get darkvision on anyone if you take goggles of night.
That elf can also get darkvision and access to more feats by take a versatile heritage. I can't think of any that doesn't offer "low light, or upgrade existing low light to darkvision" as the effect of the heritage or level 1 ancestry feat. Given that this also gives the elf access to new ancestry feats, this point feels like a wash.
To pitch another thing elves can potentially do better; illusionist wizard. You'll want a decent cha for convincing illusion, and elf lets you boost dex, int, and cha. Human can boost int and cha, and have lower AC than the elf, or int and dex, and have a lower deception. The elf will have few hp, but if you're an illusionist, you should be able to manipulate the battlefield to make it hard for people to hit you
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I personally prefer the 3 boosts/1 flaw ancestries, I can live with only 12 Con just by playing a bit more careful. Being able to deploy a third boost is worth a lot to me.For me, it really matters what the flaw is. I'm ok if it's int, cha or str [unless it's the main stat] but a save stat I don't really like to drop them if I can help it.
See, I can't really live with taking an intelligence penalty. Whereas I've been able to do okay with characters starting with Con 12.
They can attend their great-great-great-grandmothers birthday party and 250th wedding anniversary.
I have a dwarf character who carries a family painting with children’s great, great, grandchildren and herself. And dwarves don't even live as long as elves...
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Be condescending?
Be condescending?
Meh. Some of the most condescending people are the ones with inferiority complexes. So a half elf rejected by elven society might try to cling to his elven heritage in order to lord it over pure human peers.
It's crazy to think that an ancestry that lives for so long has only 6 HP and a flaw in its constitution. It doesn't make any sense. If I were to describe an ancestry that lived for so long, one of its strong attributes would certainly be its health.I think it makes enough sense given the comparative reclusiveness, isolation, and the like that has always been written in as part of what makes elves elves; they may be more susceptible to poison and disease, and less physically durable, compared to other peoples but they are also less exposed to such things.
Plus, there's room to interpret it as elves with their 6 HP and constitution flaw as being the equivalent of real-world humans in toughness/resilience/healthiness, and all the other ancestries that have those traits at higher value are particularly tougher than real-world humans, since the rules as-is don't result in elves falling ill or dying in situations that wouldn't reasonably cause the same for a real-world human.
My thoughts if I were going to be redoing the Ancestries (Races) would be in agreement that even with lower exposure Elves would need to have a decent Constitution to live so long, at least with regards to disease and poison. So I would have given them a Hit Point flaw (to reflect being lightly built), but not an actual Constitution flaw. (Likewise, I would have given Dwarves a social skills flaw when interacting with non-Dwarves, but not an actual Charisma flaw -- come to think of it, that's what 1st Edition AD&D actually did for both Dwarves and Half-Orcs, except that they had you write down the lower Charisma number.)
There is an easy way to explain the con flaw and long life: because they get sick all the time, all the elves take Medicine [or they get some ancient elf archetyped into alchemist] since they have the time on their hands. Treat Disease/Poison or an Antidote/Antiplague is an easy way to overcome a -1 to those rolls.
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Be condescending?I don't know, I think that both you and I have proven that even Humans can be condescending from time to time. :p
Negative, I'm a meat popsicle.
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Negative, I'm a meat popsicle.Be condescending?I don't know, I think that both you and I have proven that even Humans can be condescending from time to time. :p
Oh, lah-de-dah, look at this guy, lording his meat popsicle-ness over us plebes. Get out of here elitist!
Not to bludgeon a mincemeat horse, but versatile heritages are quite astounding. You also have the Elf Step feat than only a full blooded elf can take unless you pick Monk for you class, and that feat is hilarious and insane. Beyond those 2 points, it's mostly story, does the world you're in care about whether someone is a half-elf or a full elf? There are certain LOCG feats that only full blooded elves can acquire, and a few items as well, but that's in part a story thing. Does your GM allow you to mixed elf with something else? One party I was in we had a half-elf orc and that was actually quite powerful, can't do that with puny human blood in ya! :P