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I think one of the biggest things about mutagens is that, especially in conjunction with Follow the Expert, they give anyone a passable chance at any given skill. A trained person with a legendary instructor and level 17 mutagen acts as though they're legendary in the skill with a +2 item.
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Depends a lot on your build:
Silvertongue is great for swashbucklers with a cha panache skill, and any martial using intimidate, provoded you aren't doing some niche recall knowledge thing.
Juggernaut mutagen at early levels is better than most healing items if you can afford the mild hit to perception.
Energy mutagen lets a meleer exploit weaknesses or resist enemies who predominantly use the aligned energy type. If the drawback is biting you in the butt, breath it out as a quick AoE.
Applereed Mutagen makes a tank occupy more squares, increasing their ability to block for their allies, in addition to making you faster and giving an athletics for all those controlling combat maneuvers. The AC and ref penalties hurt, though the AC one is a slight blessing too, since it makes you a more appealing targets for something that may have otherwise been thrown at a squishy.
Stonebody is nice for martials; ranged characters won't care as much about the move nerf, but will enjoy the arrow resistance. Bonus points if you're mounted.
Cognative mutagen doesn't hardly impact casters, and the bonus is really broad; excellent for scholar types.
Quicksilver has very real drawbacks, but also very real boons. If you know how to use the speed boost, it's easy to make up for the damage by simply positioning in such a way that enemies cant hit you easily
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Despite the offensive penalty, Serene mutagen has the largest numerical benefit and applies to one of the most dangerous saves in the game.
If your barbarian keeps failing saves against Dominate or Command and still refuses to use it, just mind control him into drinking one.
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Are there any Mutagens worth buying and using for non Alchemists and which would you recommend.
I have an extremely hard time finding a mutagen I'd want to use on an alchemist that can make one for free let alone find one I'd want to spend cash on.
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Since the question is about low tier cheap mutagens that can be bought without big investment:
Quicksilver does not seem like a valid option since it does not stack with at level permenant ranged weapon item bonus, and similar speed bonus can be obtained from cheetah elexir without the ever scaling damage to health.
For a ranged infiltrator (Rogue or Investigator for example), Quicksilver is a gift from heaven because of the skill bonuses and that your bonus to hit is not weapon dependent. It works with ranged and Finesse weapons. Great for a DEX switch hitter.
Not to mention that the Moderate version is Item 3 and costs 12 gp and gives you yet another +1 to hit and skills, while the Cheetah's elixir that has the same duration and bonus to speed is level 5 and costs 25 gp.
What I like best about the Quicksilver mutagen is the whole package, including speed to escape faster when your skills fail and your few HP left will not suffice :-D
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I will be seriously converting to 2E next month after mostly doing one shots and tests and honestly I think I will remove the penalty from mutagens. You already can only use 1 at a time due to them being polymorph effects and they are quite expensive and spells that do the same effects are more powerful and easier to gain access to aswell.
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Since the question is about low tier cheap mutagens that can be bought without big investment:
Quicksilver does not seem like a valid option since it does not stack with at level permenant ranged weapon item bonus, and similar speed bonus can be obtained from cheetah elexir without the ever scaling damage to health.
Juggernaut is also a poor choice as a lower tier mutagen to use in combat since 2 actions for low amount of healing is not worth it action economy wise. A case can be made to use it as pre-buff but since will is very dangerous save foreknowledge is essential.
Quicksilver's item bonus, like all mutagens, is ahead of the curve when you compare it to an equal leveled weapon. That means it isn't great on a ranged specialist using a much lower level mutagen, but an on level they can give a slight boost to a specialist and a significant boost to someone who didn't already have a kitted our range weapon.
Since the question is about low tier cheap mutagens that can be bought without big investment:
Quicksilver does not seem like a valid option since it does not stack with at level permenant ranged weapon item bonus, and similar speed bonus can be obtained from cheetah elexir without the ever scaling damage to health.
For a ranged infiltrator (Rogue or Investigator for example), Quicksilver is a gift from heaven because of the skill bonuses and that your bonus to hit is not weapon dependent. It works with ranged and Finesse weapons. Great for a DEX switch hitter.
Not to mention that the Moderate version is Item 3 and costs 12 gp and gives you yet another +1 to hit and skills, while the Cheetah's elixir that has the same duration and bonus to speed is level 5 and costs 25 gp.
What I like best about the Quicksilver mutagen is the whole package, including speed to escape faster when your skills fail and your few HP left will not suffice :-D
Note that Quicksilver doesn't work for the Investigator since your strikes are Int based, not Dex based. The rest of this post is valid though.
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I suppose that's true but excuse me if I'm not enthused about taking damage equal to twice my level for a bonus that only applies to the backup plan.
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I suppose that's true but excuse me if I'm not enthused about taking damage equal to twice my level for a bonus that only applies to the backup plan.
LOL I'm not enthused about the damage as a main plan let alone a backup one, especially for a "switch hitter". ;p
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For me personally, I was pretty disappointed with alchemist because I wanted to be a character that drinks a mutagen and turns into a hulk like thing. But then, reading bestial mutagen which is really the only melee offense one available, I realized that using bestial mutagen only makes an alchemist around on par with with other martials. But even then it comes with caveats - it costs resources, comes with a drawback, AND since other martials have things like rage and sneak attack, you're actually behind on damage.
I understand why alchemist is the way they are. If they did a lot more damage it would be unfair to other martials, since alchs also have the versatility to make bombs, healing elixirs, and a bunch of other utility stuff. Not to mention that mutagens can be handed out to other classes, so making them stronger would only make them more desirable to other classes with better proficiencies/features. Just wanted to throw my hat in and say I was also disappointed with that aspect of the class.
Though paizo seems pretty keen on avoiding power creep, I hope alchemist is an exception in some ways. Some suggestions to fix my gripe - make some mutagens that straight up polymorph the caster, and put them closer to a martial in power but take away their ability to manipulate objects etc. Another thing that would be a trait that some mutagens could have that let them work only on the one who created them, and make them a lot stronger than they are.
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OP doesn't sound like they're playing an alchemist and are just looking to buy tier down items.
IMO the best bet for those are the skill-boosting ones. Most ways to get an item bonus to skills only apply to one specific skill, so being able to just pop a cognitive or silvertongue and get a decent boost to a big pile of skills can be pretty handy. Less so if your group already has their skill bases really covered, but it's the best use case off the top of my head.
Feral Mutagen alchemist does okayish damage once you get that feat, though it is pretty swingy between your accuracy, enhanced AC penalty and deadly trait.
Biggest problem there is just that since the feat only effects bestial mutagen, you're SoL if you want to use drakeheart or juggernaut... and heaven forbid you like the idea of fighting with a weapon that you charge with elemental power, because energy mutagenist is one of the worst strikers in the entire game
Since they have the Polymorph trait, you can use them to attempt counteract checks against spells like Baleful Polymorph and Bestial Curse.
For me personally, I was pretty disappointed with alchemist because I wanted to be a character that drinks a mutagen and turns into a hulk like thing. But then, reading bestial mutagen which is really the only melee offense one available, I realized that using bestial mutagen only makes an alchemist around on par with with other martials. But even then it comes with caveats - it costs resources, comes with a drawback, AND since other martials have things like rage and sneak attack, you're actually behind on damage.
I understand why alchemist is the way they are.
Yes it would be really good if some of this was available as an archetype, or at higher level via feats. A line of battle form mutagens - with disadvantages like not being able to reduce the duration. Even if there were self only limits on it.
The bestial mutagens are a waste of space. Why would you do this when you can just use a weapon instead. Or even use hand wraps?
Since they have the Polymorph trait, you can use them to attempt counteract checks against spells like Baleful Polymorph and Bestial Curse.
Yep, that also means bad guys can do the same to you. Only 2 spells it works on though and one requires humanoid so leshy and sprite are immune.
Are their any Mutagens that would be brokenly good without thier downside?
Well, I don't know about broken, but the opportunity costs become pretty different if the rest of the Alchemist class stays the same.
I think an Alchemist with enough reagents might turn into an actual vending machine unless you make them better at using mutagens than other classes, because handing your Barbarian a Juggernaut Mutagen is better than the Alchemist drinking it. Your Demoralize-focused Fighter or Feint Swashbuckler would want a Silvertongue Mutagen more than an Alchemist would, any Dex-based martial would be the better choice to hand a Quicksilver Mutagen, etc.
Seems like it'd turn out like Power Infusion in World of Warcraft where most Priests are asked to put their haste cooldown on other classes. Could suck for a Bomber, for example, to be asked to spend a healthy chunk of their reagents every day making everyone else even better while not having as many reagents to make their own schtick more effective, or even worse if the math works out to the best thing being passing out mutagens to everyone else and not throwing a single bomb.
Great NPC/hireling class.
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I think there's a material difference in that the Warpriest can still do everything else a Cleric can do with the divine list, which is arguably far more game-changing than what an Alchemist does.
Just removing mutagen penalties doesn't give Alchemists the ability to dispel magic, walk on water or air, remove curses, summon angels, etc. They're still Alchemists, only now their buffs have no downside except I guess that you brought an Alchemist instead of another class.
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I think there's a material difference in that the Warpriest can still do everything else a Cleric can do with the divine list, which is arguably far more game-changing than what an Alchemist does.
Just removing mutagen penalties doesn't give Alchemists the ability to dispel magic, walk on water or air, remove curses, summon angels, etc. They're still Alchemists, only now their buffs have no downside except I guess that you brought an Alchemist instead of another class.
The warpriests cant hurt multiple people on a miss, use most of their buffs as a single action, or summon whatever spell they want by simply not allocating all of their resources during daily prep. Also, unless you pick the maxed out wis warpriest build, you aint counteracting jack.
Anyways, back to mutagens, I find most of the level 3 ones to be worth holding onto in place of skill booster items for checks that you'll probably need to make, but won't be making often. At 10 minutes, even if the drawback does harm you, it'll basically last for an exploration turn, which is nice for when you're forced to make a skill check at something your only okay in; it's essentially a free proficiency boost when you really need it.
A melee fighter able to prebuff will also be able to use a level 1 drakeheart mutagen as an cheap, 1 off action economy booster to close distance by just final surging turn 1
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For removing the penalties of mutagens, I could see a case for allowing the alchemist that makes the mutagen to forego the penalties for drinking it themselves. If the alchemist gives it to anyone else (and all purchased/crafted mutagens) would still have their penalties apply.
Let the alchemist buff themselves to equivalence without penalty, but not allow over-buffing allies with no downsides.
Though I am not entirely sold on the idea. If you aren't into the playstyle of having to work around the downsides, maybe play a different class? Or use different abilities of the alchemist at least.
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The warpriests cant hurt multiple people on a miss
They can: Cast a spell like sound burst and even when they succeed in making a save, they take 1/2 damage. They aren't stuck with trying to target AC.
use most of their buffs as a single action
Most times, neither can the alchemist as they aren't walking around with a premade item in hand. They also can't they apply said buff to multiple people.
or summon whatever spell they want by simply not allocating all of their resources during daily prep.
*Shrug* They get the ability to pick ANY spell they are able to cast every day without having to pay for the privilege, meaning even the most niche spell is available and they also have a free pool of heal/harms.
Also, unless you pick the maxed out wis warpriest build, you aint counteracting jack.
How is that different than anyone else? Or saves? Or attacks? Your casting stat is kind of important.
I find most of the level 3 ones to be worth holding onto in place of skill booster items for checks that you'll probably need to make, but won't be making often.
I can't say the same. I haven't used one since the early days of the game when I was trying things out. It only took one exploration that suddenly turned into an encounter to turn me off on the idea as -1 or 2 to attacks puts a BIG damper on things.
A melee fighter able to prebuff will also be able to use a level 1 drakeheart mutagen as an cheap, 1 off action economy booster to close distance by just final surging turn 1
*shrug again* A cheap charge vs -1 2 saves for the fight... Saving an action vs maybe being dominated: not a close call IMO.
Since using the final surge effect of drakeheart mutagens ends the duration of the mutagen, it also ends the duration of the drawback. So it's a cheap charge vs. -1 to saves until your first turn.
I actually thought I read somewhere that the downsides of a mutagen would last longer than the benefit. But now I can't find it. So maybe I am hallucinating, or maybe it was from a previous edition or something like that. But yes, as far as I can tell from the current rules, using the Final Surge action on Drakeheart mutagen ends both the benefit and the drawback.
I did go back and look at the PF2 Playtest 1.0 rules for mutagens. Boy howdy, you think the current version is bad...
Onset time - sometimes up to several minutes before either the benefit or drawback takes effect.
Attunement - mutagens had to be crafted for specific individuals. If anyone else drinks a mutagen that isn't built for them they get the drawbacks but not the benefits.
Partial counteract - Drinking a second mutagen would counteract only the benefits of an existing active mutagen. The drawbacks of both mutagens would be active for their full duration.
Since using the final surge effect of drakeheart mutagens ends the duration of the mutagen, it also ends the duration of the drawback. So it's a cheap charge vs. -1 to saves until your first turn.
Hmmm... Yeah, I remembered the -1 save and the dex cap but didn't recall it ended after the charge. That jumps it up to a maybe for me then: if you can potentially be attacked before the charge, you're trading -1 will save and up to -5 AC [if you're light/no armor] for the action. For a heavy/medium armor user, I can see using it for just the charge if you get the chance to pre-buff: with alchemists now getting medium armor proficiency it'd would have made an interesting tactic if it was on the Perpetual Infusions list but you either have to make it with your Advanced Alchemy or pay for it makes it less so.
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For removing the penalties of mutagens, I could see a case for allowing the alchemist that makes the mutagen to forego the penalties for drinking it themselves. If the alchemist gives it to anyone else (and all purchased/crafted mutagens) would still have their penalties apply.
Let the alchemist buff themselves to equivalence without penalty, but not allow over-buffing allies with no downsides.
Though I am not entirely sold on the idea. If you aren't into the playstyle of having to work around the downsides, maybe play a different class? Or use different abilities of the alchemist at least.
I've proposed a similar idea, but having drawbacks is a big piece of the mutagen flavor. Many folks would just prefer the penalties be less severe.
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stuff
To go in order:
-comparing want is an at will ability at level 7 and beyond to to something that uses a limited resource is definitely bad faith. If you want to compare it to non perpetual bombs, basically any alchemist that wants to bomb is using quick bomb or, if the table allows, an independent valet familiar, and using 1 action vs the 2 actions to cast sound burst
-If you aren't carrying items in hand and/or using a familiar with manual dexterity, then that's on you for not taking advantage of something your class can do
-spell selection isnt even remotely comparable to quick alchemy, and formulas are cheap af. At best you could compare to spell substitution wizard, who spends their thesis slot for the ability to do it 100 times slower than you
-If you want to hold your own in combat using strikes, the warpriest is either gonna have to short their wis for cha, or vice versa, because you need a good str and con. Either you buff healing font and accept you aren't counteracting anything, or max wis and have a smaller font.
-exploration is mostly 10 min turns, so most mutagens will be gone after you did your task. Even then, only 2 mutagens nerf combat, and one of them only nerfs weapon users. Ambushes like that are pretty rare unless your DM is a dick or your group doesn't scout for some reason
-final surge ends the mutagen effect, you won't have a penalty to saves after.
Bad faith claims aren't going to work on me, I have plenty of experience dealing with them, but this is the end of any class specific talk I'm doing because this is an item thread, not an alchemist thread
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I don't see how anything graystone said was in bad faith, they were just counterpoints.
At risk of devolving into a warpriest vs. alchemist argument (which wasn't at all what I was going for), I do think you can argue that Alchemists have strengths without loading up on contrivances, because they do have strengths. But somehow a warpriest that's gimping its casting stat (which I think is sub-optimal at any rate) is getting thrashed by a Bomber without Dex as a key stat, when the level 7 warpriest being compared to perpetual splash bombs can have Str. 18, Wis. 19, Cha. 16, with some stats leftover. Those are offensive stats on par with a martial and a caster until level 10, barring proficiencies (which Alchemist also struggles with). You might pop over and grab heavy armor proficiency or whatever, or take Toughness if you're worried, but that's solid. In fact, I have a warpriest in one game right now with exactly that at level 7 and they spend their time swapping between melee/casting as the situation requires and they've been very effective.
Splash damage on a perpetual if you take Calculated Splash is decent guaranteed damage. I think that's something Alchemists can do that a lot of other classes can't, and it's cool. If you have a familiar who can hand you items, or Quick Bomber (feats), and take Calculated Splash (feat). What's the mutagenist who wants to beast-form out doing? Or the Chirurgeon or the Toxicologist? Are their builds also focused on throwing Calculated Splash perpetual bombs? They don't get perpetual bombs.
Spell selection isn't Quick Alchemy, no, but spells on the whole are significantly more game-changing than Quick Alchemy. I know some are fond of throwing out smokesticks on the fly, but that doesn't really change the fact that Quick Alchemy is limited by the alchemical items themselves. I'd love for alchemical items to do more interesting and powerful things, but there really aren't that many powerful effects for alchemical tools and elixirs when you compare them to spell lists. While you can pull out a smokestick or silversheen or an infiltrator's elixir any time you have the reagents, that doesn't mean that the caster's lower level slots are just sitting there doing nothing either.
And here we're comparing a warpriest only because siegfriedliner asked if mutagens without penalties potentially leading to Alchemists being expected to be mutagen vending machines was any different than a warpriest being asked to provide heroism. Divine is arguably the most limited spell list, on the type of Cleric most people consider to be less powerful than a straight caster Cleric. Once you start getting into Bard territory, or even Wizards with their Arcane Focus and school bonus spells, it starts to look a bit different.
So yeah. Alchemist has some neat stuff, and can do a few things other classes can't if they build for it. But we were talking mutagens with no penalties. Quick Alchemy doesn't make the Alchemist better at using a Juggernaut Elixir than the Barbarian. A manual dexterity independent valet familiar doesn't mean that your Alchemist is keeping that Silvertongue Mutagen rather than your demoralize or feint-focused Swashbuckler. Pulling a smokestick out of your pocket doesn't make it better for the Alchemist to drink the Quicksilver Mutagen than the Thief Rogue. When we start talking about the Alchemist passing out long-term buffs even with no downside, in my estimation they're still not the ideal target for the benefits. That's the problem, not whether warpriest vs. Alchemist is the fight of the century. Alchemists, even with no downsides to their mutagens, are still not the best class to chug most of them.
Alchemists should want to pass mutagens out to their parties more often--this honestly could just be a matter of perception, and players being very averse to penalties that they can't cancel at will. Alchemists should also have the ability to drink mutagens and be the ideal person to use them. Alchemical items should be stronger, more varied, and more useful.
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-comparing want is an at will ability at level 7 and beyond to to something that uses a limited resource is definitely bad faith.
Only if you made it clear you where ONLY talking about perpetual items: you didn't.
If you want to compare it to non perpetual bombs, basically any alchemist that wants to bomb is using quick bomb
Sure, they can whip out the bomb quicker but don't use their casting stat to hit or for saves, have a bigger area of effect, ect. Of course the alchemist can throw multiple extra feats to play catch-up to balance that out but...
-If you aren't carrying items in hand and/or using a familiar with manual dexterity, then that's on you for not taking advantage of something your class can do
I think it has more to do with the realities of the game that you might need a free hand traveling around, it's hard to have the right item in hand if you are carrying around a particular bomb around the dungeon or around town all the time and have to spend an extra action to stow a bomb if you'd rather use another to trigger a weakness.
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spell selection isnt even remotely comparable to quick alchemy, and formulas are cheap af. At best you could compare to spell substitution wizard, who spends their thesis slot for the ability to do it 100 times slower than you
I think at best, you'd compare them to sorcerers that pick whatever is on their list of that level to cast. And as to cheap, you still have to take the time to get them at each level of item at a place big enough to carry items of that level and rarity can be an issue.
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-If you want to hold your own in combat using strikes, the warpriest is either gonna have to short their wis for cha, or vice versa, because you need a good str and con. Either you buff healing font and accept you aren't counteracting anything, or max wis and have a smaller font.
Sure, but isn't that the same thing an alchemist has to do, except their casting stat doesn't automatically affects saves and such?
-exploration is mostly 10 min turns, so most mutagens will be gone after you did your task. Even then, only 2 mutagens nerf combat, and one of them only nerfs weapon users. Ambushes like that are pretty rare unless your DM is a dick or your group doesn't scout for some reason
I have to say, I've never ran into a game that neatly had exploration is mostly 10 min turns: I see numbers all over the place. As to ambushes, that depends on the game and what's happening and scouting isn't guaranteed to work or even be possible.
Bad faith claims aren't going to work on me
Well that good... You might work on your "bad faith" detection though as you seem to have problems in that area. If you want to debate on a VERY narrow subject, you have to be very clear that's what you want. It's not bad faith when only one party knows the rules. :P
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I think a way to make new mutagens that are more attractive to players, even with draw backs, is to give more of them special activites you can do one time and have it consume the rest of the power in the mutagen. We got a taste of this, but I think a lot more players will enjoy mutagens when they don't feel trapped in their usage.
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Yes, that would be really cool! You even could add more abilities to higher level mutagens as part of progression, like giving bestial mutagens a leap ability (or claw flurry or whatever) or quicksilver a dodge reaction.
I think you could also easily make alchemical items that are stronger than the common fare, and effectively Alchemist-locked, by making items with the Rare tag that can be unlocked in groups with Alchemist feats or be available as formulae with a small errata to class features (i.e. "Alchemists treat all alchemical items with the Rare tag as Common."). So even dabblers or MCD wouldn't get to have the best stuff unless they convince their DM or, I dunno, take a feat or whatever, but Alchemists themselves have semi-exclusive things.
I'm actually experimenting with this on my own homebrew for some more interesting items, and I think it's an elegant way to get Alchemists (and by extension the items they can make) decoupled from the Alchemical Crafting feat and the basic alchemical items so they can make really powerful, cool things without them being necessarily generally available for purchase all the time.
It's all very modular, which is great, and there are a lot of ways to bump things up and make mutagens feel like a solid strategy.
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I think a way to make new mutagens that are more attractive to players, even with draw backs, is to give more of them special activites you can do one time and have it consume the rest of the power in the mutagen. We got a taste of this, but I think a lot more players will enjoy mutagens when they don't feel trapped in their usage.
This is my favored solution, since drakehearts are pretty favored in my group due to final surge. Overall, I'm a pretty huge fan of buffs that have an early termination effect to get some extra oomph; it's a fun mechanic, and it would def make mutagens more interesting
As for the alchemist specific items, I think its a good idea. We already have the philosopher's stone (which sadly got nerfed p hard). Although, I'm not sure how I favor it when compared to just making more additives that aren't quick alchemy dependent; that said, no reasonnwe can't have both
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For removing the penalties of mutagens, I could see a case for allowing the alchemist that makes the mutagen to forego the penalties for drinking it themselves. If the alchemist gives it to anyone else (and all purchased/crafted mutagens) would still have their penalties apply.
Let the alchemist buff themselves to equivalence without penalty, but not allow over-buffing allies with no downsides.
Though I am not entirely sold on the idea. If you aren't into the playstyle of having to work around the downsides, maybe play a different class? Or use different abilities of the alchemist at least.
Just to say there’s already an alchemist feat that does that
At level 20
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Mutagens are absolutely great. The biggest thing is to use them to their strength and not to use them around their weakness.
My X-Bow Ranger would always keep about 3 or so of the highest level Quicksilver. A +1 to hit and a +2 to a handful of skills is incredibly underrated. Ranged DPS character 40+ feet away from enemies, that can take advantage of +2 to Stealth and Bonus to Movement for repositioning has always proven beneficial. The hit to HP isn't enough to make a difference unless you want to go a Melee Dex build.
Stone Body synergizes well for Swashbuckler and Monk tank builds or bonus survivability against larger groups of enemies.
Energy is a cheap and an amazing go to for elemental resistance and bonus damage.
Juggernaut scales at later levels to be more Temp HP than from Rage or Spells.
Bestial is good for Athletic Maneuver builds.
Stone Fist. . .
Cognitive for Lore Master/Monster Hunter Ranger or Investigator.
Serene for mage heavy encounters.
Silvertongue for Swashbucklers.
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That would certainly justify the polymorph tag.
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I think part of drakehearts appeal is for the non Armored classes (who tend to have good will saves) it can be a +4 bonus to AC which is huge. For your sorcerer, wizard, cloistered cleric the trade off is a no brainer.
Its honestly the only Mutagens that is like that, all the other Mutagens trade off make them highly situational.
Unless I am mistaken, if you drink a Moderate Drakeheart Mutagen after any other Lesser Mutagen, Drakeheart will replace the Lesser Mutagen unless you roll a critical failure on the counteract check. You can then end Drakeheart early if needed thanks to Final Surge.
Seems like an interesting workaround to get the benefits of other mutagens while considerably lessening the impact of their drawbacks.
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I think part of drakehearts appeal is for the non Armored classes (who tend to have good will saves) it can be a +4 bonus to AC which is huge. For your sorcerer, wizard, cloistered cleric the trade off is a no brainer.
Its honestly the only Mutagens that is like that, all the other Mutagens trade off make them highly situational.
Unless I am mistaken, if you drink a Moderate Drakeheart Mutagen after any other Lesser Mutagen, Drakeheart will replace the Lesser Mutagen unless you roll a critical failure on the counteract check. You can then end Drakeheart early if needed thanks to Final Surge.
Seems like an interesting workaround to get the benefits of other mutagens while considerably lessening the impact of their drawbacks.
That Moderate Drakeheart Mutagen has a counteract check of (level [3] + it's counteract DC-10 [8]) for a +11 vs the DC for a Lesser Mutagen of 15. This means a roll of 1-3 fails. So an 85% of working.
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BTW, many thanks for the formula. I am not well acquainted with the counteract rules.
Glad it was helpful. I knew right where to look since I just went over this in a game I'm in: had someone grabbing the wrong DC so they where using the spell DC instead of the item one. I was scratching my head for a while how they calculated a DC 26 [counteracting a 5th level spell] instead of a DC 20 [counteracting a 5th level item].