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What the title says. Something like an arbalest, like simple crossbows but with deadly and more range or something. Just give crossbows some love.
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This is hopefully we get the book with the repeating crossbows in it.
The bow is the martial crossbow ;)
Martial crossbows would be nice, but they'd suffer from the same problems martial firearms and simple crossbows have unless Paizo fundamentally changes how they treat the Reload feature.
The gap between a martial and simple weapon just isn't enough on its own to tip the balance. Crossbow ace effectively bumps your crossbow up to martial tier as is. It's just not enough.
Martial crossbows would be nice, but they'd suffer from the same problems martial firearms and simple crossbows have unless Paizo fundamentally changes how they treat the Reload feature.
The gap between a martial and simple weapon just isn't enough on its own to tip the balance. Crossbow ace effectively bumps your crossbow up to martial tier as is. It's just not enough.
If you look at the new AP out, the 1st one has a good example of what a martial crossbow could look like.
Plus the creature using it had abilities that look like what I'd like to see in the playtest classes:
PS: I also tripped across an ability that actually reduces crossbow reloads: the Spriggan Warlord's Warlord's Training actually reduces them by 1. Now I want to play a Spriggan. ;)
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Just thinking out loud here, but:
I *think* I am okay with reload weapons being a primarily "start combat from range" option for people who don't plan on focusing on them, or a "you have all the time in the world, like hiding behind a crenelation" NPC weapon. That's distinct from a weapon being essentially unusable, it's just more niche, and could be made better with magic.
That leaves room for people who want to focus on reload weapons to take options to make reloading awesome. It's not fundamentally the reload feature that makes reload weapons terrible, its the damage disparity between two people trying to push out as much damage in as little time as possible, one with a zero reload and one with a 1+ reload. That damage disparity can be overcome with reload bonuses, and then the investment requirements to make reload weapons on par can be rewarded with more reload bonuses.
There's been a few threads about what reload bonuses could be, but there should at least be [Damage Parity Reload Bonuses] and [Utility Reload Bonuses].
Damage parity could be things like loading two bolts, increasing your next shot's damage by a flat amount, allowing you to roll damage twice and take the highest, increasing accuracy, adding elemental damage, making your foe flat footed, or increasing damage die size.
Utility reload bonuses could be any number of things
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I *think* I am okay with reload weapons being a primarily "start combat from range" option for people who don't plan on focusing on them
I don't think this is very viable with the way magic weapons work.
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Problem is that Pathfinder uses the silly hollywood tropes of guns and bows which leaves no room for crossbows and firearms.
Imo there should not be martial crossbows. Their simplicity is what makes them different from bows.
Bows should on the other hand should all be martial and be MAD (str to damage, dex to hit, or minimum strength requirements which can also apply to the better crossbows).Firearms then would be at "the bottom", basic weapons everyone can use no matter their strength score and do full damage with them.
1. Composite Bows are already Dex to hit, 1/2 Str to damage.
2. Having powerful weapons be easier to use does not help their viability in a TTRPG because your heroes are all well trained, and the classes with Simple Weapon Proficiency are not expected to rely on weapon damage. The only way this "realism" argument for firearms would work is if there was a class that focused on training a squadron of peasants to use in combat (please do Paizo, that would be great).From a balance perspective Firearms need to be competitive with existing weapons that martials are actually using. That means having competitive damage with non-reload weapons or big changes to the Gunslinger to make it a non-damage focused class. With the damage it is currently going to be putting out it would probably need more utility than the Rogue/Investigator to be competitive.
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One issue is making it distinct from a crossbow ranger. I think rangers currently get all the crossbow love at this point: not just Crossbow Ace for a +3 to damage (+2 static, +1 die size), but also the Precision feature where if you do something that triggers Ace you also get precision damage. I really want to try out a sniper-style ranger, and with the one-action crossbow it's..not entirely terrible, I think?
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We just got a repeating hand crossbow in the 3rd book of the abomination vaults AP. It is uncommon and an advanced weapon but it has a 5 bolt magazine.
We just got a repeating hand crossbow in the 3rd book of the abomination vaults AP. It is uncommon and an advanced weapon but it has a 5 bolt magazine.
yeah and honestly I'm just treating it as martial, it's still worse than a short bow by most metrics. Trading deadly d10 for 1 hand vs 1+ hand and MUCH worse if you ever actually have to spend a round reloading.
Advanced is kind of problematic since other than being a fighter or having it be an ancestral weapon, it is very hard to get an advanced weapon not be effectively -2 versus a comparable martial weapon.
Maybe we'll eventually get an archetype that grants something flexible to let you treat a specific advanced weapon as martial for proficiencies.
But like the class that can benefit the most from a repeating crossbow is the crossbow ranger, who doesn't really have accuracy to spare.
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Is that the whole weapon? hand crossbow but with a magazine? Being able to use a shield for five attacks worth of combat is nice, but that still seems weirdly weak compared to the shortbow, considering it's an advanced weapon.
Between that and the APG's daikyu I sort of wonder if Paizo isn't having some regrets about ranged weapon balance. They seem really hesitant to publish anything that's too competitive with a composite bow, even when those weapons are a tier up.
Doesn't that make it more or less just a shortbow that doesn't have deadly or propulsive even when it has ammo in the magazine? And that's an advanced weapon?
Man, Paizo really doesn't like crossbows.
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Technically the slight edge it has relative to the shortbow is that with Nimble Shield Hand you can use a real shield and shield block, rather than shortbow who would be using a buckler. But yes, in all other cases its worse.
Same damage, but no deadly
Advanced
After 5 shots you need to spend three actions reloading
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The repeating crossbow has the special trait “repeating” that specifies that it loads itself after firing. You don’t need a free hand. It also can have other sized magazines in theory. It just says they typically hold 5.
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The main advantage I see there is if we get a doubling ring equivalent to ranged weapons as the gunslinger playtest alluded to. That might have some real utility for switch hitting, and someone with Dual Thrower might do better damage than, say, someone with a shortbow and double shot or triple shot.
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The repeating crossbow has the special trait “repeating” that specifies that it loads itself after firing. You don’t need a free hand. It also can have other sized magazines in theory. It just says they typically hold 5.
I don’t have the book, but know someone who does, here is what they said
Just to chime in: There's no provision that repeating remove the hand needed. In fact, the description of the weapon mention doing something to the weapon to load the next bolt from the magazine. It's not an automatic weapon. Also, repeating doesn't remove the reload, it set it lower. Based on the wording, there could be a "reload 1" repeating weapon, I suppose if the base weapon would need reload 2.
Paraphrasing, but the trait says something like "it reduce the actions needed, typically making it reload 0"
Hum. Rereading it, and the trait text seems to assume the weapon need to be cocked again, but the weapon description says it does everything automatically... Then we have the picture that... At first view doesn't make much sense, and at worst seems to need to cock the string by hand, which would be madness on a xbow.
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The main advantage I see there is if we get a doubling ring equivalent to ranged weapons as the gunslinger playtest alluded to. That might have some real utility for switch hitting, and someone with Dual Thrower might do better damage than, say, someone with a shortbow and double shot or triple shot.
Why would any of this help a crossbow?
Dual thrower only works on thrown weapons - you can’t fire two crossbows. Both the crossbow and bow leave a hand free to draw + throw..
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@Exorcist, both the weapon description itself and the repeating trait specify that weappn loads itself automatically after being fired. There could potentially be some confusion over the reload 0 trait calling out requiring a free hand, but the specific weapon description AND trait should over ride the general rule.
It is pretty clear that the intention of the weapon design is a self loading hand crossbow
Advanced weapons seem like a non starter for just about anybody who doesn't have legendary proficiency. And the people who do have it would be sacrificing a great deal of their crit range. I'm not sure who advanced weapons are intended for
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Advanced weapons are very often tied to archetypes that sync proficiencies with your base class. There is an archetype in the AV 3 book that gives this as feat for the repeating crossbow, and lets you use running reload to move and reload a magazine at the same time, down to 2 actions if you have a special bandolier. I think we are getting a preview of a fair number of items that are yet to come in Guns and gears.
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Advanced weapons are very often tied to archetypes that sync proficiencies with your base class. There is an archetype in the AV 3 book that gives this as feat for the repeating crossbow, and lets you use running reload to move and reload a magazine at the same time, down to 2 actions if you have a special bandolier. I think we are getting a preview of a fair number of items that are yet to come in Guns and gears.
Well, maybe. Probably more accurate to say we're getting insight into where their heads were at 6-10 months ago.
The main advantage I see there is if we get a doubling ring equivalent to ranged weapons as the gunslinger playtest alluded to. That might have some real utility for switch hitting, and someone with Dual Thrower might do better damage than, say, someone with a shortbow and double shot or triple shot.Why would any of this help a crossbow?
Dual thrower only works on thrown weapons - you can’t fire two crossbows. Both the crossbow and bow leave a hand free to draw + throw..
I hadn't previously paid close attention to the wording of that feat, but now that I'm looking at it, I don't see why the Dual Thrower feat wouldn't work with this crossbow.
Whenever a dual-weapon warrior feat allows you to make a melee Strike, you can instead make a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon or a one-handed ranged weapon you are wielding.Any effects from these feats that apply to one-handed melee weapons or melee Strikes also apply to one-handed ranged weapons and ranged Strikes.
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Yep, despite the name, the feat isn't limited to throwing. And being able to fire it a few times while holding something in the other hand is nice.
I don't think it is meant to be competive with the shortbow. One handed is slightly better than One+. You aren't meant to fire multiple clips. It is a supplemental weapon-- either you dual wield it or use it intermittently with a sword in the other hand.
I'm sure we will get a standard sized repeating crossbow which can be compared to the shortbow, at which point the shortbow's one+ status will be an advantage.
I don't think it is meant to be competive with the shortbow.
Given that it's advanced weapon, you're right. It should be a step up from a shortbow and other martial options.
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Given that it's advanced weapon, you're right. It should be a step up from a shortbow and other martial options.
I don't think it is meant to be competive with the shortbow.
Sure, but it is also a one handed weapon which reduces the power budget. An aldori dueling saber isn't better than a great sword if you want to be strength based and deal maximum damage. The difference here might not be quite as pronounced, but the same principle applies. The repeating hand crossbow isn't meant to be a better shortbow. It is meant to be a better one handed option than other one handed weapons.
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Sure, but it is also a one handed weapon which reduces the power budget. An aldori dueling saber isn't better than a great sword if you want to be strength based and deal maximum damage. The difference here might not be quite as pronounced, but the same principle applies. The repeating hand crossbow isn't meant to be a better shortbow. It is meant to be a better one handed option than other one handed weapons.Given that it's advanced weapon, you're right. It should be a step up from a shortbow and other martial options.
I don't think it is meant to be competive with the shortbow.
And specifically a 1 handed ranged weapon that can be fired up to 5 times without reloading. It can be dual wielded pretty effectively and is hands down the best option for any sword wielding drifter gunslinger. Especially with the ability to fire it and still have ammo left over for reactions.
If I read this right, you can wield 2 of these and shoot 10 times before having to reload.
Or before dropping them and drawing two more.
Fighter with Quick draw from an archetype might just love these.
that is cool but again, is it better than "just a shortbow"? You are missing out on deadly d10, and more importantly are getting -2 on every hit because of advanced, or -4 if you actually try to double slice dual throw, since they are not agile.
Actually doing some quick math and using the damage tool, comparing a shortbow fighter and a fighter using dual throw and two repeating hand crossbows, the damage is very competitive from level 6 onwards and actually pulls slightly in favor of the hand crossbow user at high levels due to their superior accuracy.
But
- Their damage craters if a combat lasts more than five rounds (admittedly pretty rare, but something to consider).
- They're occupying both their hands at all times, which means burning extra actions to drink potions or open doors.
- Their build is much more expensive because they have to buy weapon runes twice (doubling rings only apply to melee weapons).
- The repeating crossbow user is spending three feats (dual weapon warrior, dual thrower, advanced weapon training) to do comparable damage to the shortbow user spending zero.
Very PF1 design direction here.
This repeating hand crossbow is going to be phenomenal for a gunslinger with reactions, and makes a dual wielding pistolero work right away. You might eventually want to pick up the archetype for the accuracy boosts, but without Fatal or deadly, you might be fine with standard martial accuracy. Although having one of these and redirecting shot with a bomb throwing alchemist will make having that accuracy look pretty juicy.
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Actually doing some quick math and using the damage tool, comparing a shortbow fighter and a fighter using dual throw and two repeating hand crossbows, the damage is very competitive from level 6 onwards and actually pulls slightly in favor of the hand crossbow user at high levels due to their superior accuracy.
But
- Their damage craters if a combat lasts more than five rounds (admittedly pretty rare, but something to consider).
- They're occupying both their hands at all times, which means burning extra actions to drink potions or open doors.
- Their build is much more expensive because they have to buy weapon runes twice (doubling rings only apply to melee weapons).
- The repeating crossbow user is spending three feats (dual weapon warrior, dual thrower, advanced weapon training) to do comparable damage to the shortbow user spending zero.
Very PF1 design direction here.
The playtest had ranged doubling rings and there's no reason to think such an item won't be in guns and gears. And I'm sure gunslingers are going to have dual wielding based builds and are meant to be the defacto users of weapons like this.
That seems pretty defeatist. They could just... make better crossbows.
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Rangers use crossbows just fine in PF2, PF1 Spheres of Might a crossbow sniper was an excellent build. Dismissing it as an impossibility speaks more to a lack of imagination on your part.
Ultimately a martial crossbow in PF2 just needs to do competitive damage in one hit compared to a bow's +0/-5. You can math that out and ship it.
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Couldn't the whole "crossbows can't be good because we want melee to be viable, so you can't have one hit kills from range" argument also be applied to guns, which is a thing we're getting an entire class devoted to in coming rulebook?
Probably why playtest guns had a lot of the same fundamental problems crossbows do.
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I have a homebrew to make crossbows competitive with the actual number of actions it takes to use them but the first thing you have to do to ensure that this isn’t abused with quick draw or fire and drop style, thus getting an over the curve weapon with no downsides.
Step 1) Change reload such that you can no longer preload. Add a sentence like “If a weapon remains loaded for a minute or more it automatically unloads”. Or you can just do the stance method and say “weapons cannot be loaded outside of encounter mode”.
Step 2) Addressing the weapons themselves. The problem is they don’t do enough damage, and there’s not enough modularity on weapon traits to add damage without making them do a million on a crit. I suggest, therefore, a new trait
“Impact: Impact always includes a value. A weapon with impact deals additional damage on a hit equal to its impact value multiplied by its number of damage dice”
Then getting to the weapons (I have graphed all of these out to be competitive with bows for the action cost)
Crossbow - Add impact 2 (impact 4 if you want it to be martial)
Heavy Crossbow - Add impact 5 (impact 7 for martial). This one I’m a bit more unsure about. Impact 5/7 compares favourably with 3 bow strikes, but it’s also 3 actions to shoot the crossbow - any interruption means no damage that round. It’s incredibly inflexible, but also do we want to support a reload-reload-strike playstyle? You could make it unable to Strike in the same round you reload it, and increase the impact value, to make it more of an “every other turn weapon”.
Hand Crossbow - Add impact 2 (4 for martial)
Repeating Crossbow - Add impact 2