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With the ability to branch out with more than just guns, including melee, that hopefully gets expanded in the final product methinks a more open name would be more appropriate and lead to less confusion and type-casting.
Fighters aren't called Swordmasters after all and "I'm a Gunslinger that uses a bow/crossbow!" is really clunky and awkward, conversation-wise anyway, hopefully not mechanic-wise (*swoon over the possibility of Path of the Sniper archer*).
Marksman is more open but also more restrictive in a different unfortunate way.
So, Sharpshooter? Deadeye (I'm partial to that)? Trigger? Shootist*?
*I don't care for that but it is indeed an actual term XD
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Wouldn't mind gunslinger getting name change just so its easier to smuggle it past "NO GUNS, BAN" folk xD
There is bit of problem with that though that any of those names sound like it should be usable with bows as well ^^; Because current version of gunslinger doesn't get expert bow proficiency since they seem to be about the "mechanical" ranged weapons. Though that might obviously change by release for all we know
And if you changed name to just "slinger" then all sling fans would be disappointed :'D
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I don't particularly care much for the idea of bringing a bow in, Xbiws aren't well supported so this could be there time to shine.
Long with the name change, divorcing the 'Uncommon' class from its 'Uncommom' features would be preferable.
Something like a Desperado could fit?
The issue is that the Gunslinger is a bit of a sacred cow name that does its own marketing to casuals regardless of how accurate thst is.
It's "marketing" and typecasting, and puts it on the auto-reject pile for a lot of groups.
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I was thinking on a good fit for the class and I landed on "Ace". It makes sense with the mechanics pushing the limits and doing crazy things.
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marksman or sharpshooter.
Hmm. Rysky makes very good points.
It is *designed* to be non-gun conversant.
Removing “guns” will make its appeal broader.
I do agree with HeshKadesh however that Gunslinger does do its own marketing that speaks volumes. It has a legacy.
I’m up for a name change, if one could fit. “Ace” is ok, and nice and short, but I feel a bit unlikely as a “Pathfinder” class name. Happy to be wrong. Ace perhaps doesn’t embody the Drifter concept as easily. Or maybe it does. Drifter Ace. Ace (Drifter). Ace (Sniper). Ace (Pistolero).
Makes me focus on the fact that “Pistolero” doesn’t work for crossbows, which then makes me think that Gunslinger and Pistolero *are* the default, and that oddly enough, non-gunne enthusiasts are in the possibly uncomfortable position of finding that Golarion well and truly *is* and that they need to excise the class or find ersatz flavor replacements for the class and Way, if they want.
Deadeye, Sharpshooter, Marksman/person? as have been suggested. Hmm. Not grabbing me. Nor is Shootist.
My son and I like Gunflinger, makes a lot of sense if you run out of ammo...
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Ace works - we already know you can take the Gun Ace and Crossbow Ace feats. And if my wishes come true, also a Sling Ace.
Deadeye also sounds good - I really really like the attitude it conveys.
Sharpshooter I'm not entirely sold on, it's a bit too specific on the "one really good shot" bit which feels more like a specific Way.
Marksman doesn't seem ideal, compared to the other more gender agnostic terms.
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Wouldn't mind gunslinger getting name change just so its easier to smuggle it past "NO GUNS, BAN" folk xD
There is bit of problem with that though that any of those names sound like it should be usable with bows as well ^^; Because current version of gunslinger doesn't get expert bow proficiency since they seem to be about the "mechanical" ranged weapons. Though that might obviously change by release for all we know
And if you changed name to just "slinger" then all sling fans would be disappointed :'D
I'm all in favour of a different name and broadening the class to include a thrown weapon expert - Hurling daggers and axes with deadly accuracy.
Name change would be neat in case a designer wants to make a melee only path for them, such as bow monks.
Getting strong flashbacks to my PF1 campaign with an Empty Hand monk who dual-wielded pistols to slap people around with when he wasn't shooting them.
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Deadeye then works for throwers, shooters, firers etc. where Shooter or Shootist doesn’t and I’m certain we aren’t going to be seeing a Marksperson. Also has great grimdark appeal, for..those...you..know...grimdarkians.
I thought the playtest made mention of calling yourself a bolt slinger if you used xbow. As far as the drifter/melee version of the name discussion goes I really don't think gunslinger is gonna give people the wandering ronin they want. That's probably gonna have to wait until an archetype or class further down the line....unless that fantasy also includes a gun/hand xbow.
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I also don't think that this is the class for the roaming katana wielding drifter. We don't have the grit mechanic in this class at all, and requiring a melee weapon character to focus on the crafting skill makes no sense to me.
I really like how this is a class built around having deadly accuracy with a ranged weapon that requires reloading, but I think that even the bolt slinger ends up at a disadvantage with this class because the accuracy of the class really pushes you to want a weapon with brutal critical effects. In that regard, I don't really see why the class should try to incorporate crossbows at all. Between the fighter and the ranger, I don't really see what this class brings to a crossbow ace that is different than what we already have.
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Changing the name and widening what the class can do would be good. Perhaps Dragoon?
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requiring a melee weapon character to focus on the crafting skill makes no sense to me.
To be fair, katana care and maintenance is super important. I could definitely see some kind of focus on using crafting to keep your gear in tip top condition, even if it's just melee weapons and armor.
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requiring a melee weapon character to focus on the crafting skill makes no sense to me.To be fair, katana care and maintenance is super important. I could definitely see some kind of focus on using crafting to keep your gear in tip top condition, even if it's just melee weapons and armor.
Why wouldn't this apply equally to the fighter though?
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Why wouldn't this apply equally to the fighter though?requiring a melee weapon character to focus on the crafting skill makes no sense to me.To be fair, katana care and maintenance is super important. I could definitely see some kind of focus on using crafting to keep your gear in tip top condition, even if it's just melee weapons and armor.
Oh no, it definitely could. As near as I can tell Gunslinger is nothing more than a Gun focused fighter archetype right now anyway.
If the flavor of the class was shifted, you could have gear maintenance being more a mystical/zen behavior and provide a flavorful reason for including Crafting on a character coming in a Crafting focused book.
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Why wouldn't this apply equally to the fighter though?requiring a melee weapon character to focus on the crafting skill makes no sense to me.To be fair, katana care and maintenance is super important. I could definitely see some kind of focus on using crafting to keep your gear in tip top condition, even if it's just melee weapons and armor.Oh no, it definitely could. As near as I can tell Gunslinger is nothing more than a Gun focused fighter archetype right now anyway.
If the flavor of the class was shifted, you could have gear maintenance being more a mystical/zen behavior and provide a flavorful reason for including Crafting on a character coming in a Crafting focused book.
See, I think that I might be erring towards making the gunslinger be a gun focused, quick finger/reflex fighter, and having a lot of the mobile switch hitter elements and general ranged elements extracted to archetypes that other classes can access without having to interact with the gun/tinkerer elements of the class.
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I am all for name changes (like if the Occultist comes back it be named Antiquarian or Reliquarian).
The class right now is basically Fighter but with Guns (you could literally use fighter with the gunslinger feats and it would play basically the same) and I do wish that the concept was broader and a new name would help.
Drifter and Ace sounds cool.
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I too feel Gunslinger is more like a Fighter archetype than a class. Or just an expanded archetype using the chassis of another martial.
Likely too late to fix that though. :/
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If we're going to remove guns, wouldn't that make them a linger?
X: "What do you do?"
Y: "I ling."
X: (backs away) "I don't want no trouble, mister."
Or since they attack at range we could call them...oh, wait.
Dawned on me that Rangers are the only ones effective with a crossbow plus they're the ones with traps. So these two classes kinda tread on them the most. :P
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As for actual names, I like Weaponslinger or Weapons Ace.
I hope there's a Drifter theme option, though the name doesn't quite capture a broad enough selection IMO.
The thing is Paizo's trying to work them into this Guns & Gears book so Gunslinger as a label kinda has to be somewhere, right?
And to differentiate themselves from other martials (and to fit the book's theme), they should be working with contraptions of some sort. So I'm not sure bows or muscle-powered weapons suit the niche. I dislike that they're accomplished in melee (other than some fisticuffs I suppose). Would there be concept space for melee contraptions?
Gearslinger? Weapon Punk?
I'm getting all sorts of Deadlands vibes now.
And I want "Weaponslingers" to work with Numerian tech too! (Yes, Han Solo treads on Starfinder turf, but Numeria exists and this book deals with the fringes of fantasy tech so...) That wasn't a call for PF2 Numerian tech BTW, rather for a class that could function with that range of options. Think of it as futureproofing. Or future-tech-proofing?
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Maverick was a guess for a class in the save the date thread.
But as much as I’d like them to flex a bit into other weapons, it already looks like crossbows were taped on in a method to open the class up to being usable in other games.
That kinda confirms that guns are going to be the focus, especially since almost all the feats either mention a firearm or crossbow and their main inverse-panache mechanic is Misfire which other weapons don’t have.
It would be easier to turn Gunslinger into a fighter class archetype that drops heavy armor for light and some weapon proficiencies in exchange for the path and slap all the feats under that than it would be to create support for other weapon types IMO.
And I say that as someone that originally saw the class working as you say.
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The Designers have stated that there's not that many Crossbow options because they want people to playtest the guns, there'll be more crossbow stuff in the final.
I did not know that but with 33 Class Feats already in print, I wonder how much room they’d have left for other weapons. As far as Playtests go, this is one of the more full feeling in terms of feats (outside lvl 20 but i kinda doubt a lot of playtests take place at that level)
Here’s hoping.
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I don't like ace as a name, because in my brain that's a term for pilots who have shot down five planes.
And if you have a gun-free gunslinger, you should have someone good with slings, not crossbows. (Joking aside, poor slings get no love).
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Class names are non-diagetic, so you can just have your character call themselves a desperado, or a maverick, or whatever.
It's not totally different from how the Oracle does not generally engage in prophecy, despite the name. You can have a Fighter who is a peaceful person, a Ranger who stays in one place, a Monk who has never visited a monastery, a Barbarian from high society, etc.
Am I doing a self-destructive rampage trying to tear everything about a class down because it's broken P1 mechanics didn't get brought into Second Edition?
Nah.
I just don't like saying "I'm a Gunslinger that doesn't use guns" XD
I didn't want most of that, and I was the main person you were yelling at for 6 pages.
So, yeah, this post sounds pretty weird. In the interests of not derailing, that is all I will say about that.
In any case, I also support the name change, though none of the ones suggested really seem interesting yet.
Edit: I also would like to see the Gunslinger name preserved for the inevitable gun specific fighting style archetype.
The Designers have stated that there's not that many Crossbow options because they want people to playtest the guns, there'll be more crossbow stuff in the final.I did not know that but with 33 Class Feats already in print, I wonder how much room they’d have left for other weapons. As far as Playtests go, this is one of the more full feeling in terms of feats (outside lvl 20 but i kinda doubt a lot of playtests take place at that level)
Here’s hoping.
Most martials had around twice that number of feats out the gate from the CRB, if not more (as with the fighter).
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I did have a player loudly argue with the table that he wasn't a witch because he was a male witch who just liked the class and then he let loose with enough horrible slurs that we were okay with skipping the game (and further games with that player).
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Yeah, the class name sets expectations, and there's a reason Champions exist in PF2.
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their main inverse-panache mechanic is Misfire which other weapons don’t have.
Perhaps more weapons should. The broken condition is right there already, an intermediate step might be appropriate. Give weapons that have "misfired" the Shoddy condition. What penalties that might entail, yo no se, but I'm sure they can think of something.
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their main inverse-panache mechanic is Misfire which other weapons don’t have.Perhaps more weapons should. The broken condition is right there already, an intermediate step might be appropriate. Give weapons that have "misfired" the Shoddy condition. What penalties that might entail, yo no se, but I'm sure they can think of something.
http://2e.aonprd.com/Rules.aspx?ID=197
Shoddy items already exist, though.
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It was just an example name.
Here's some more:
shabby · well worn · worn out · worn to shreds · threadbare · tattered · in tatters · in ribbons · in rags · in holes · holey · falling to pieces · falling apart at the seams · ragged · frayed · patched · moth-eaten · faded · seedy · shoddy · sorry · scruffy · dilapidated · crumbling · broken-down · run down · tumbledown · decrepit · deteriorated · on its last legs · having seen better days · timeworn · tatty · ratty · the worse for wear · clapped out · grotty · raggedy · warby · rent
I don't actually care what they call the condition, I'm just interested in such a condition existing.
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Wouldn't mind gunslinger getting name change just so its easier to smuggle it past "NO GUNS, BAN" folk xD
As one of the "no guns in my swords & fantasy setting" folk, I kinda want a name change just so I can consider allowing the class (using crossbows/etc) without a player saying I should be allowing guns if I allow a class called the GUNslinger.
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I want to second "Maverick" as an option.
Though if the emphasis shifts a little so they're more contraptions-oriented ("I'm the martial that uses the Inventor's weapons that don't need constant attention & technical training.") then I'd want something that reflects that. And I would like that shift, especially for melee.
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I like Deadeye. It's a little odd, but very evocative of the core imagery of the archetype. Precise, ruthless, abrupt.
Soooo...any chance we could get some guidance as to whether Paizo are willing to see movement on the name so that if they aren’t we can drop it? I *guess* if enough people put notes in the survey that *might* be a thing.
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Wouldn't mind gunslinger getting name change just so its easier to smuggle it past "NO GUNS, BAN" folk xDAs one of the "no guns in my swords & fantasy setting" folk, I kinda want a name change just so I can consider allowing the class (using crossbows/etc) without a player saying I should be allowing guns if I allow a class called the GUNslinger.
Yep, I totally understand that. Given what folks in this thread are trying to work out, would you allow a Maverick or Deadeye that has rules for guns AND crossbows?
Adjacent to that, and just for my own interest - how do you feel about the Inventor for your sword and fantasy game?
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I'd say "drifter" and "way" actually go reasonably together, since they both imply travel. But the ways don't really do a lot mechanically for you socially. Although most of the classes delegate much of social activities to skill feats instead of class feats. But it'd be nice to have some social/mysterious options specific to the [Deadeye].
Yep, I totally understand that. Given what folks in this thread are trying to work out, would you allow a Maverick or Deadeye that has rules for guns AND crossbows?Wouldn't mind gunslinger getting name change just so its easier to smuggle it past "NO GUNS, BAN" folk xDAs one of the "no guns in my swords & fantasy setting" folk, I kinda want a name change just so I can consider allowing the class (using crossbows/etc) without a player saying I should be allowing guns if I allow a class called the GUNslinger.
Most likely, yes. I'd allow such a class with the caveat that guns weren't available - meaning anyone playing the class would have to go the crossbow (or other) route(s).
My primary oppositions to guns are:
1) I prefer my swords & fantasy setting a bit earlier tech-wise.
2) I don't think the appeal of guns (at least how I see them) can be captured in a level-based system in a way that is both balanced and satisfying/realistic. Part of the appeal of guns historically was taking the equivalent of a level-0 peasant, giving them a week of training, and having a realistic chance for them to kill someone who trained their entire life on the battlefield (equivalent to a mid- to upper-level character). This would be horribly unbalanced with how PF2 treats combat between characters of different levels - and making it balanced removes the primary appeal of guns for me (drastically reducing the skill floor for highly-lethal violence).
Adjacent to that, and just for my own interest - how do you feel about the Inventor for your sword and fantasy game?
Still evaluating. I have to look at the playtest more thoroughly and then decide based on the final class. I might end up doing the same as paizo's setting and limit it to certain regions with a theming of clockwork - though overall I prefer a bit less tech focus in my sword and fantasy.
Has there been any indication that the names of either of these classes are up for discussion at all? I wouldn't be upset to see a change to frankly either class's name, though gunslinger especially. Just curious if there is a reason to brainstorm or if Paizo has their plans set by now.