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Shooting something to bounce it to you isn't that out there, it's the "shoot something to speed it up and then cause it to reverse and fly back to you without any supernatural elements" that causes stuff to break.
It's up there with letting characters use the Konami Code to get their health/spells back.
It's too over the top. Too silly.
Just to clear up, I like the "shoot something to speed it up" AND "shoot it to bounce it back" part, I don't actually need both combined since I agree that is hard to understand how it physically works xD
The part I don't want removed is ability to do one of those things(or maybe both separately)
Designer
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I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.
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I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
I saw it more as "you throw weapon, shoot it, and its blunt edge hits enemy hard and bounces back" hence why I suggested bludgeoning damage. I have hard time seeing slashing weapons like longswords and axes to not just cut through or dig themselves deeper if you shoot at them if they are already lodged into the target.
But its 9:57 am and I've been barely up for 2 hours so my brain doesn't work.
But yeah, I'd prefer if Rebounding Assault gets changed as little as possible, but I'm willing to give up doing both at same time if that is what is necessary to sell it to people x'D
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I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
And if it's a club?
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Might as well throw my hat into the ring as well from another angle:
I LOVE me some anime silliness. I'm down for that in my games, depending on the context and tone of the campaign. I'm here to have fun, and enable other players to have fun.
As someone like that, I also say that Rebounding Assault is....weird. Let me explain why as far as I can reflect from myself:
Magic systems can be soft or hard (yes, that old spectrum/debate), but no matter where they fall on the spectrum, there's some kind of rules or general feel for how it tends to work. Golarion and Pathfinder in general has a general feel for how the magic works. Sometimes physics is ignored. Sometimes things can be a touch silly.
What we have here is a 9th level ability where a sword (for example), is shot by a gun even deeper into any enemy than it already was going to after being thrown, and then proceeds to unsheathe itself from its new home, and fly back to its owner, *completely on its own and for seemingly no reason whatsoever* (including not even a returning rune *which is an established thing*).
I'm down for silliness. I really am. Ask any GM I've ever had and they will sigh and agree (a GM's sighs give me life in a playful way, lol). This ability and its tone just kinda seems to come out of nowhere, and doesn't fit in with the flavor of high fantasy/magic that is present in Golarion/Pathfinder so far. The Gunslinger isn't a spellcaster using some kind of telekinesis, the weapon doesn't have a returning rune, there's no laws of physics that are being bent/exaggerated for the sake of showing off skill/talent/general fun, etc.
As this thread points out, there are a few feats/abilities like this with the Gunslinger as presented. In theory I'm super down, as I've described before, it just feels weird and out of place for the general context of the setting and the flavor of magic it's set up to date. Obviously Paizo can change that tone/flavor if they want. It's their setting. This just comes super out of left field.
Another way to think of my argument is if this ability is suddenly introduced like this in like Chapter 16 in the tenth of a series of Golarion novels. The reader would be rightly baffled, even if it does sound like it looks really cool. Similarly, if I showed up to a table with this, I have no idea how I'd describe it to my GM that would make sense in the context of the setting.
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And if it's a club?I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
What? For club it would make perfect (anime) sense.
Also since I'm super tired, I actually read Sayre's post incorrectly and had to edit my previous post to how I actually originally interpreted the action
But yeah, for club that just makes perfect sense, you essentially launch it at so incredible speed it bounced back
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It's so outrageously left field that it puts me into tin hat mode, leaving me to wonder if Paizo deliberately placed it as some sort of red herring.
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Anyhoo, I do think that part of problem of this ability is explanation of it requiring reader to imagine how it works(hence why we have heard at least three different interpretations of how this is supposed to work and all are different) so explanation being clearer might help with that.
But I think maybe this could have something more like "have effect based on weapon's damage type?" like having bludgeoning weapons bounce back and piercing weapons impale target and turn slashing weapons into spinning circle saws for a moment? ;D
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I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
It would need to be reworded to function like this since as is it's a simultaneous single attack, not a one-two punch.
"adding it's force to the single attack" is the exact current wording, that I and others are getting.
Your description does solve the issue, but it's not we're seeing atm.
This is all beside the issue of the questionable logic being employed in "after I stabbed someone instead of shooting them I shot my weapon instead", which is, well, questionable and violation of common sense. Mechanics don't let us damage our equipment like that but it's gonna leave an odd taste repeatedly shooting your equipment and it being perfectly fine.
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I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
I'm going to look at it from another angle. Say I replace the rapier with a Dwarven War Axe and the crossbow with a hand crossbow: it makes the interaction seem even more implausible as I have a hard time seeing the bolt move the axe 10" let alone 10' through the air and right into my hand... What makes it worse is if you increase the range: say you take a ranger multiclass and get farshot then use a light hammer to hit a target 200' away then shot that hammer with a light crossbow to get it to fly backwards 200'...
Now let me say, I don't mind the ability mechanically. It's the explanation/justification of how it works in game that has me scratching my head.
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Now let me say, I don't mind the ability mechanically. It's the explanation/justification of how it works in game that has me scratching my head.
That's where I feel like I lie on a lot of these somewhat sillier feats. Mechanically, I'm fine with them all, but the justification makes me squirm a little. My hang-up is Redirecting Shot, where you could shoot another ally's bullet at such an angle to make it curve and hit the enemy. Likewise with an arrow or bolt, without just shattering it. Mechanically, this is awesome, and I'm 100% here for it. Thematically I do have to have the ranger coming up to the gunslinger afterwards like, "Okay, what in the world was that?"
I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
Well, I can *actually* envisage that. It’s like being explained a fight that might have happened in an episode of One Piece (so roughly 1/8th of a fight). The problems I have:
it took a lot of words just then for you to explain that so it kinda feels overwrought in essence;
the ability made me think the shot hits the weapon *before* the weapon hits the enemy while your explanation of a possible scenario happens after the weapon has already hit;
and as others have explained the weight and range discrepancies can create some really odd...corner cases.
I’m not dead set against the ability’s general direction but it ferls like it needs some work.
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Black Powder Boost makes no verisimilitudinous sense if it is just a pistol or musket. It *almost* gets there with Arquebus or Hand Cannon, but then...no, not really, i can see the Inventor has a very similar thematic ability [Explosive Leap], but that works becoz ‘splosions.
This makes me think of the Doctor Who episode where Peter Davison impels himself by throwing a cricket ball at a spaceship, but that “worked” because zero-G/“space”. This doesn’t.
Firing a small bullet away from me to go faster shouldn’t work unless I’m a...grig or something, but luckily they aren’t a playabl....oh no....gngngngn....
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Rebounding Assault really reads like the mechanics where there first (it's basically like the other make-two-attacks-and-combine-damage feats) with all the returning stuff that makes it work mechanically.
..And then an insane flavor description was conceived that tried to describe what is happening. Which is probably how most feats & abilities are made. But here the description is so awkward it isn't even cool anymore.
After reading Rebounding Assault I just asked how? and why? Why shoot the melee weapon and not just the target?
Instant Return is a) much higher level, where superhuman actions are common and b) for me easier to visualize and to convince myself that it might work in a fantasy world apart from the where-does-the-blackpowder-come-in problem.
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I see it more as you fling the rapier, it spins end over end, the point lodges in the target's face, then you shoot the hilt as it sticks out at an angle, causing it to slam into their chest hard enough to yank the blade of the rapier out of the wound with the remaining kinetic energy causing the weapon to rebound enough for you snatch it up again (since it can't go forward through the target). It's all in the initial throw and putting vertical spin on your weapon rather than throwing it along a curved arc. YMMV.I LOVE Rebounding Assault. Don't you dare to change it paizo! :DLet me paint you a picture.
I throw my Rapier at the person 10 feet away from me.
I shoot the hilt of my rapier with my crossbow.
The rapier impales my target.
The rapier then un-impales my target and flies back to my hand.
All without any supernaturalness involved.
Suspension of disbelief didn't break, it got took out back and shot.
I'm just saying if I managed to fling my rapier that wasn't even designed for throwing right into the targets face, I just think I would rather also try to also shoot the target right in the face.
That description sounds just too much like a "Hold my beer and watch this!" scenario than a sensible combat trick. °_°
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Seems a moot point to me. Could you elaborate?
Saying it doesn't work on High Jumps and Long Jumps because it works on Leaps is inaccurate, because High Jump and Long Jumps are actions that use and allow you to amplify your Leap action. This is also why it states that the decision can be made after the check is made, because if you perform it via a High Jump or Long Jump there is a check that determines how far your Leap action in the High Jump or Long Jump can take you.
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I also think it would be mind bogglingly stupid to plan to throw your weapon and shoot it to get it to come back in a world where the Returning rune exists.
It's like handwaving long distance communication with tin cans on string in a setting where you can just buy cell phones.
I think it would be relativity easy to reskin or reflavor the descriptors. None of the raw effects are outside of normality just the description.
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So why can't I just strike with my rapier in melee and shoot as part of "Rebounding Assault" and gain precision damage if both hit? Shoot the place you pierced, slashed or bonked? Maybe add a step afterward, using the momentum to reposition or get out of melee range. Now that is drifterstyle.
To add some image, you stab, then shoot, add a kick as you shoot.
Feels for the way and level 1.
Then we try to explain Rebounding Assault as it is now... I toss my nonthrown weapon perfectly, hit my target, shoot the weapon (as explained), to deal more damage and then it rebounds back to my hand perfectly. 10ft is just the range increment, could be done farther away. And that is for nonthrown weapon. Should be a feat as a bonus to normal a normal effect.
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I also think it would be mind bogglingly stupid to plan to throw your weapon and shoot it to get it to come back in a world where the Returning rune exists.
It's like handwaving long distance communication with tin cans on string in a setting where you can just buy cell phones.
You could make this exact argument about Battle Medicine and healing magic.
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- The ability doesn't look like it feels good. I need to hit two shots, or I've foolishly chucked my melee weapon away.
- Speaking of chucking weapons away, this little maneuver always involves breaking the Doubling Rings link, so one of the attacks takes an accuracy and damage penalty.
- The ability feels silly to me. That's been discussed plenty here.
- The thing making both of these worse for me is, it's part of Drifter instead of some feat. Sword-and-pistol will always come with something I don't want for three reasons.
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Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
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You could make this exact argument about Battle Medicine and healing magic.I also think it would be mind bogglingly stupid to plan to throw your weapon and shoot it to get it to come back in a world where the Returning rune exists.
It's like handwaving long distance communication with tin cans on string in a setting where you can just buy cell phones.
Not really, no. To make the same argument you'd have to plan on healing people by throwing scalpels at them.
Medicine is also online much earlier, so you wouldn't necessarily have access to the magic alternative.
Like, when planning your tactics and gear, who in their right mind would decide regularly throwing their weapon and shooting it back to them is better than paying an acceptable fee for a returning enchantment?
Deciding on using medicine is good financial sense, since it's tried and true, effective, and extends your supply of consumables and healing magic.
Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
I'm fine with those kinds of things being options, not forced on anyone stepping into a class.
I'm fine with those kinds of things being options, not forced on anyone stepping into a class.Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
Hard disagree. I think that games should be more opinionated about what type of play is expected rather than less opinionated. Actively hate games-as-toolbox philosophy of gaming and games design.
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Hard disagree. I think that games should be more opinionated about what type of play is expected rather than less opinionated. Actively hate games-as-toolbox philosophy of gaming and games design.I'm fine with those kinds of things being options, not forced on anyone stepping into a class.Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
yeah, definitely a point of disagreement between us. I love having things like the rarity tags to help each table and individual manage their flavor profile.
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Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
You can't have cinematic gameplay without verisimilitude. Once suspension of disbelief and immersion are broken, there's no more positive experience, cinematic or otherwise.
I also think it would be mind bogglingly stupid to plan to throw your weapon and shoot it to get it to come back in a world where the Returning rune exists.
It's like handwaving long distance communication with tin cans on string in a setting where you can just buy cell phones.
You adopt a stance designed to rebound your thrown weapons back toward you. While you are in this stance, any thrown weapons you use as part of a ranged Strike to deal bludgeoning or slashing damage immediately return to your hand, enabling you to use them for additional Strikes. You must be within the weapon’s listed range increment and have a hand free to catch the weapon. If you make a ranged Strike with a thrown weapon outside of its listed range increment, it instead flies back toward you a number of feet equal to its listed range increment and then falls to the ground.
There is plenty of utility in not requiring the Returning Rune for thrown weapon builds. To clarify though, I’m not saying this as to invalidate any of your points, and will actually add that if Rebounding Assult excluded Piercing Weapons it could feel less polarizing in believability.
One thing that sounds like a real worry is that will people still view the feats with the same appreciation once the Glamour of cool wears off? As someone that personally loves the current over the top flavor; a little toning down i feel would be perfect for the long haul.
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Yeah, to be clear, many, many "cartoonish" problems are just a matter of adjusting descriptions. An ability that does the exact same thing, except doesn't require you to shoot your own weapons back to you, could be absolutely fine. I have other issues with the mechanics and its presence in the melee Way, but simply removing the bizarre gun mage hand would go a long way.
It reminds me of "Harry Potter with Guns" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tS3y1Q3mFVw)
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You can't have cinematic gameplay without verisimilitude. Once suspension of disbelief and immersion are broken, there's no more positive experience, cinematic or otherwise.Mechanics and game-viability aside, I'm a big fan of the over-the-top stuff. Lean into it. There are so many abstractions in this game already and ways in which it more resembles Percy Jackson than Conan. I dig that. I want more of that.
I want cinematic gameplay. I couldn't give fewer cares about realism.
I mean. This isn't true, because it doesn't break any of that for me. Or, at least, it isn't universally true. Verisimilitude is contextual and isn't one single thing. Paizo are free to define the internal consistency of their world however they want. From my read of their setting, it is a grab bag of thematic stuff with even "martial" people being larger-than-life. This is just modern mythology to me. Realism isn't important in the least.
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Realism and verisimilitude are one thing, but being able to describe an action that in any way makes sense is another. I've run across few abilities, feats, spells, whatever in Pathfinder so far that I can't get my head around enough to be able to narrate it at the table. Some of these gunslinger trick shots, but especially rebounding, exist in a space of such alien physics that I am at a loss as to how to actually explain the process at my table.
So there's verisimilitude and there's "literally can only exist in anime." I love the quirkiness of the class and am happy they're diving into it, but at the same time some of this is leaving me too a bit in the lurch.
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Honestly since Rebounding Assault is already on the Way of the Drifter (the melee Class), I think it might make more sense to just turn this into a gap closing ability that you can regrip the weapon as part of the attack.
Like the thing that's easy to visualize is:
- Throw weapon
- Shoot weapon faster
- Half your speed Stride to target
- Draw weapon from targets chest for free
And the above is something that we've seen a lot in popular culture/video games/etc.
It's easy to understand how it can be visualized and it follows along with the Drifter's already built kit (it kinda mirrors the level 1 and Sword and Pistol).
They are already the melee-ish Class, I see no reason to have the dang thing fly back to their hand when it could be used to close the distance and focus on the target.
That also alleviates weird attack cycle shenanigans where you are fighting someone in melee, you throw your weapon at someone else, and then you get your weapon back and make a Strike against someone else entirely.
At least that's my take. If it stays in its current form, I would really hope it goes to a Feat instead of mandatory because it is a little ridiculous.
Honestly since Rebounding Assault is already on the Way of the Drifter (the melee Class), I think it might make more sense to just turn this into a gap closing ability that you can regrip the weapon as part of the attack.
Like the thing that's easy to visualize is:
- Throw weapon
- Shoot weapon faster
- Half your speed Stride to target
- Draw weapon from targets chest for free
And the above is something that we've seen a lot in popular culture/video games/etc.
It's easy to understand how it can be visualized and it follows along with the Drifter's already built kit (it kinda mirrors the level 1 and Sword and Pistol).
They are already the melee-ish Class, I see no reason to have the dang thing fly back to their hand when it could be used to close the distance and focus on the target.
That also alleviates weird attack cycle shenanigans where you are fighting someone in melee, you throw your weapon at someone else, and then you get your weapon back and make a Strike against someone else entirely.
At least that's my take. If it stays in its current form, I would really hope it goes to a Feat instead of mandatory because it is a little ridiculous.
So something like: ‘blah blah blah. . . You can move up to half your movement towards the target of your this ability. If you end your movement adjacent to your target you can Grab the weapon for free; otherwise the weapon falls into a square adjacent to the enemy that would be closest to you.’
Mechanic wise this would mean that thrown weapons with a range of 20+ Could put the player into a compromising position of losing their weapon since they may not be able to grab it afterwords.
If they include an option for the physics defying capabilities it currently has, I’d be pretty happy with that. Though i can only speak for myself on this.
I mean right now, if the weapon isn't throwable (which most true melee weapons aren't) 10ft is the default range for most which seems to be the "intended" use case or at least one of the primary ones.
If it were a full Stride, that'd probably be fine considering the 1st level ability is a full Stride.
But as currently written, if I MCD Ranger and grab Far Shot I can throw a Gauntlet 100ft and have it return to my hand....
I think the people that love it as it probably should be willing to give a little here, I can only suspend my disbelief so much for a 100ft returning gauntlet...
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Honestly since Rebounding Assault is already on the Way of the Drifter (the melee Class), I think it might make more sense to just turn this into a gap closing ability that you can regrip the weapon as part of the attack.
Like the thing that's easy to visualize is:
- Throw weapon
- Shoot weapon faster
- Half your speed Stride to target
- Draw weapon from targets chest for free
And the above is something that we've seen a lot in popular culture/video games/etc.
It's easy to understand how it can be visualized and it follows along with the Drifter's already built kit (it kinda mirrors the level 1 and Sword and Pistol).
They are already the melee-ish Class, I see no reason to have the dang thing fly back to their hand when it could be used to close the distance and focus on the target.
That also alleviates weird attack cycle shenanigans where you are fighting someone in melee, you throw your weapon at someone else, and then you get your weapon back and make a Strike against someone else entirely.
At least that's my take. If it stays in its current form, I would really hope it goes to a Feat instead of mandatory because it is a little ridiculous.
If you shoot first, then throw at the opening the bullet made, it also works for gun blades.
If nothing else from a "what combat options should be seen rarely" I would say "throwing a weapon that is not intended to be thrown" should put you in the "not a regular option."
The "shoot/throw, stride, retrieve your weapon" thing works, but I'm not sure how tactically useful it is because your don't necessarily want to hang out in melee range (even if you want the firearm to be a change-up, your proficiency with your rapier or whatever isn't as good as your proficiency with your gun.)
The "shoot/throw, stride, retrieve your weapon" thing works, but I'm not sure how tactically useful it is because your don't necessarily want to hang out in melee range (even if you want the firearm to be a change-up, your proficiency with your rapier or whatever isn't as good as your proficiency with your gun.)
Well, if you have Sword and Pistol, the proficiency is effectively equivalent. One more reason to throw this into the "take it as a Feat" option, potentially (if it were rewritten as I suggested) with Sword and Pistol as a prerequisite.
Either way, you could make that exact argument for the 1st level ability, and if it were a Thrown weapon (like an actual thrown weapon) then you could just draw another one presumably.
Incentive can be added, but you can't undo the wackiness of a gauntlet that travels 100ft (even a 10ft returning rapier is hard to imagine even with Michael's description).
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Instead of this ridiculous rebounding shot they should give Drifter the entirely more reasonable ability to shoot at their blade to split the bullet and hit two targets.
More seriously, this action is currently both way too cartoonish and also really inconsistent (requiring two hits, ~57% chance that at least one misses against something your level) and it doesn't really fit the Drifter's playstyle. If the same sequence of events (minus the rebounding) played out in melee, with you shooting your weapon as you swung it, it would be more fitting to the Drifter's melee focus and would vaguely resemble what physics are supposed to look like.
With the Rebounding Assault discussion, it reminds me of the Tower Dive cutscene from Devil May Cry, where Dante throws his sword at baddies and shoots at the hilt after it hits to add propulsion, with him then running down towards the sword, both his sword and hand glowing red-hot, like re-entering the Earth's atmosphere.
It is extreme, yes. But that is more of a demonstration of what should actually happen with this kind of ability, especially in a universe with crazy physics, like being able to walk up and down walls like a floor, using bad guys as landing/leaping pads and skateboards, and having unerring accuracy and skill with both blade and gun alike.
Instead of this ridiculous rebounding shot they should give Drifter the entirely more reasonable ability to shoot at their blade to split the bullet and hit two targets.
I was thinking about that but I couldn't remember where that was from! It's like, right on the edge of my recollection
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With the Rebounding Assault discussion, it reminds me of the Tower Dive cutscene from Devil May Cry, where Dante throws his sword at baddies and shoots at the hilt after it hits to add propulsion, with him then running down towards the sword, both his sword and hand glowing red-hot, like re-entering the Earth's atmosphere.
Right, but like, in that scene, it doesn't work at all like Rebounding Assault and works like the "gap close" rewrite I mention above.
Like even in this ultra-wuxia-cray scenario Daunte is doing, he still at least adheres to semi believable physics (albeit one done by a super human).
The problem the Rebounding Assault is not that it would take a super-human to pull it off, it's that it would take a completely different reality to pull it off.
And even with all that said, making the mechanic mandatory for Drifters (and coming online at level 9) is going a little far.
The concept of shooting your weapon with a gun and having it be awesome, sure, get that, love that even.
But I don't think that's what people have a problem with about the ability. I'm pretty much with Rysky, you lost me at "the weapon returns to my hand".
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Even an outlandish anime like Trigun or pseudo-anime like Wakfu* (both which feature crazy gunplay) would avoid having Rebounding Shot be a regular thing. Maybe once to beat a boss, but not reliable, more like a desperate long shot. And something one wouldn't expect in those worlds that a major portion of super gunfighters (a.k.a. all leveled Drifters) can do that at will.
"Oh, that. Of course I can do that. I just don't." Uh...wuh?
*both have what would translate into PF2 as highest level play, and would be good sources for gun tricks (as well as other hyper-heroic shenanigans).
I also think it would be mind bogglingly stupid to plan to throw your weapon and shoot it to get it to come back in a world where the Returning rune exists.
It's like handwaving long distance communication with tin cans on string in a setting where you can just buy cell phones.
The returning throw feat is already a thing, this is a bit more out there and could be adjusted a bit since it's really hard to visualize for non-blunt weapons, but the concept isn't entirely new. Why waste 1/3 property rune slots when you're skilled enough to get your weapon back without it.
It's like buying an egg cracker when you already know how to crack eggs.
I was thinking about that but I couldn't remember where that was from! It's like, right on the edge of my recollectionInstead of this ridiculous rebounding shot they should give Drifter the entirely more reasonable ability to shoot at their blade to split the bullet and hit two targets.
https://i.imgur.com/6j7Rf.mp4 (Movie violence warning)
Apparently it is from a Filipino movie called San Basilio. I didn't know the movie either, only the clip.
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I was thinking about that but I couldn't remember where that was from! It's like, right on the edge of my recollectionInstead of this ridiculous rebounding shot they should give Drifter the entirely more reasonable ability to shoot at their blade to split the bullet and hit two targets.
https://i.imgur.com/6j7Rf.mp4 (Movie violence warning)
Apparently it is from a Filipino movie called San Basilio. I didn't know the movie either, only the clip.
Deadpool does it in a movie too, and I think it's been in several comics. A Hanna-Barbera cartoon had a dinosaur do something similar. :P
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I was thinking about that but I couldn't remember where that was from! It's like, right on the edge of my recollectionInstead of this ridiculous rebounding shot they should give Drifter the entirely more reasonable ability to shoot at their blade to split the bullet and hit two targets.
https://i.imgur.com/6j7Rf.mp4 (Movie violence warning)
Apparently it is from a Filipino movie called San Basilio. I didn't know the movie either, only the clip.
Wade Wilson also does a version of it in the god awful Wolverine origins movie
Lol ninja’d
Even an outlandish anime like Trigun or pseudo-anime like Wakfu* (both which feature crazy gunplay) would avoid having Rebounding Shot be a regular thing. Maybe once to beat a boss, but not reliable, more like a desperate long shot. And something one wouldn't expect in those worlds that a major portion of super gunfighters (a.k.a. all leveled Drifters) can do that at will.
"Oh, that. Of course I can do that. I just don't." Uh...wuh?*both have what would translate into PF2 as highest level play, and would be good sources for gun tricks (as well as other hyper-heroic shenanigans).
Counter to that is the really obvious example of dante from devil may cry, or nero. They've both done tricks like this in the series. Even lady i think has something similar.