Some options really give a cartoonish feeling.


Gunslinger Class

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Midnightoker wrote:
Darksol the Painbringer wrote:
With the Rebounding Assault discussion, it reminds me of the Tower Dive cutscene from Devil May Cry, where Dante throws his sword at baddies and shoots at the hilt after it hits to add propulsion, with him then running down towards the sword, both his sword and hand glowing red-hot, like re-entering the Earth's atmosphere.

Right, but like, in that scene, it doesn't work at all like Rebounding Assault and works like the "gap close" rewrite I mention above.

Like even in this ultra-wuxia-cray scenario Daunte is doing, he still at least adheres to semi believable physics (albeit one done by a super human).

The problem the Rebounding Assault is not that it would take a super-human to pull it off, it's that it would take a completely different reality to pull it off.

And even with all that said, making the mechanic mandatory for Drifters (and coming online at level 9) is going a little far.

The concept of shooting your weapon with a gun and having it be awesome, sure, get that, love that even.

But I don't think that's what people have a problem with about the ability. I'm pretty much with Rysky, you lost me at "the weapon returns to my hand".

Correct. In my opinion, that's how it should be handled. I used that scene as a reference to compare the kinds of crazy things it does in the likes of Pathfinder 2E mechanics (such as Legendary Cat Fall and Wall Running, to name a couple) which can be used in a plausible way, whereas the clearly intended Rebounding Assault just...doesn't, in such a scenario, and there's no other action scene in this franchise (or in any other franchise that I know of) that would have been capable of doing this kind of thing.

But, I'm more interested in finding a way for this to work; maybe not as a default feature, but as a feat option, it would be nice. After all, there is a way to fix it to work in this intended way, and that is by having the ability re-worded a bit so that Returning weapons would function properly in this manner, as it's much easier to handwave the weapon returning to you "Because Magic" compared to "Because you're just that skilled at firing the weapon."


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

The knife bullet split thing would unironically be a way better Drifter level 9 thing

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Knife bullet thing looks pretty legit for a L9 ability yeah.

A more generic "hammer the gap" ability to shoot someone and melee strike them to combine damage for DR, that I'd expect at lower level actually. I mean, that's Double Slice/Twin Takedown/Flurry of Blows/Hunted Shot tier.

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Midnightoker wrote:

Honestly since Rebounding Assault is already on the Way of the Drifter (the melee Class), I think it might make more sense to just turn this into a gap closing ability that you can regrip the weapon as part of the attack.

Like the thing that's easy to visualize is:

- Throw weapon

- Shoot weapon faster

- Half your speed Stride to target

- Draw weapon from targets chest for free

And the above is something that we've seen a lot in popular culture/video games/etc.

It's easy to understand how it can be visualized and it follows along with the Drifter's already built kit (it kinda mirrors the level 1 and Sword and Pistol).

They are already the melee-ish Class, I see no reason to have the dang thing fly back to their hand when it could be used to close the distance and focus on the target.

That also alleviates weird attack cycle shenanigans where you are fighting someone in melee, you throw your weapon at someone else, and then you get your weapon back and make a Strike against someone else entirely.

At least that's my take. If it stays in its current form, I would really hope it goes to a Feat instead of mandatory because it is a little ridiculous.

That "throw weapon, shoot it, stride to target and yank it out of target after it has hit it" would be super cool to me too :D

On sidenote, would current flavor of rebounding assault be acceptable to you if it was tied to something like "way of the gun mage"? (well wouldn't explain why they were using melee weapons, but you get basic point)


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Being able to throw a weapon you cannot throw unless you plan to shoot it seems bizarre. "Oh, I don't have ammo, I just like throwing my weapon so I have a gun to fail at the second part of this trick I kinda do. I just like throwing my battle axe, lay off!"
So it seems like if you can throw like that you'd always be able to throw like that (which doesn't feel very Gunslinger-ish).
Also weird that a low-Str, high-Dex guy can't hit well with weapon unless he lets go, then he's golden. (Though that's a broader issue, yes.)

And if you could shoot a weapon that's in somebody during such a kooky routine, it seems like you'd always be able to shoot a weapon that's in somebody (though currently there's only Revealing Stab that I know of that does this.)
And if you can rebound weapons like that, when the enemy who has a dagger in him from Revealing Stab flees, the Gunslinger should be able to knock that dagger out and have it fly back X distance.

Which is to say the Gunslinger seems hardly capable of any of the component parts of this maneuver, so it's odd that it's a class feature, not even optional, to string all three together so smoothly.
Every round.

Yeah, that's not working when there are "Hammer the Gap" options.
Like stab them then poke your gun in the wound to shoot (bypassing DR, maybe causing Bleed, maybe usable on anybody with the Bleed condition).
Or shoot then stab into that hole.
Or punch them with the pistol as you drive it into their gut to shoot.
(Lots of Punisher comic book imagery coming to me now for many IMO better gun w/ knife abilities. Ooh, comic book Frank would be a good baseline, given that he has to contend in the fantasy world of superheroes. Which again leads me to suggest a Gunslinger be good at using tech too, even if they can't create it.)


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CorvusMask wrote:

On sidenote, would current flavor of rebounding assault be acceptable to you if it was tied to something like "way of the gun mage"? (well wouldn't explain why they were using melee weapons, but you get basic point)

I mean yes and no.

Besides it being silly, it's not a terribly useful ability in general, it just has the shock factor so to speak.

Like throwing your melee weapon in general isn't a great move to do as a Drifter. You're losing a weapon. This feat solves that by making it magically return.

It solves the problem it created in the first place all so you can combine two attacks into one. Like to me, this is an ability that literally exists so that it can be an ability.

If it were a Gunmage type thing, and the Gunmage had an emphasis on this telekinetic type behaviors, I could enjoy that more because it would at least serve the purpose of exemplifying the themes of a Gunmage/Guntelekinesis.

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WatersLethe wrote:
The knife bullet split thing would unironically be a way better Drifter level 9 thing

Amusingly, Lito Lapid also does the Rebounding Assault trick, either in San Basilio or Leon Guerrero if I'm recalling correctly. Lapid movies are all over-the-top gunslinger action flicks where he does things like shoot his gun at targets while using the recoil to spin his body around vertically while dangling from a bar, cutting bullets with knives, etc.

Lito Lapid movies are right up there with El Santo flicks as some of my favorite childhood memories, though honestly it had been so long since I'd seen them that I forgot a lot about them until someone mentioned how they seemed to have influenced the gunslinger playtest (not something I was doing consciously but they were for sure in my head somewhere). There were a few like Leon Guerrero I had misremembered as Zorro films :P
Hard to find some of them in languages other than Tagalog or Spanish, but I think there's at least a few you can typically find translated to English if you can't parse Spanish or Tagalog.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

Only real problem I have with rebounding assault is that it's a dead deed for unarmed Drifters on a Way that's otherwise pretty good at being friendly to unarmed combat.

In that respect I think it'd be better as a feat... move the initiative deed up to 9th level and give them Reloading Strike as the first level deed instead since it's so important to making the build work.


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I think one of the main issues for rebounding assault is that it shows up at 9th level, which is not a time PCs normally get incredibly unrealistic but cool abilities (cat fall doesn't let you survive reentry until 15th).

The "I can shoot my weapon in just the right place that it bounces back into my hand" is in that same range of implausibility like "survive a fall from orbit" or "steal someone's shoes that they're wearing" so it stands out at level 9 when it might not at a higher level because high level PCs just do these things.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think one of the main issues for rebounding assault is that it shows up at 9th level, which is not a time PCs normally get incredibly unrealistic but cool abilities (cat fall doesn't let you survive reentry until 15th).

The "I can shoot my weapon in just the right place that it bounces back into my hand" is in that same range of implausibility like "survive a fall from orbit" or "steal someone's shoes that they're wearing" so it stands out at level 9 when it might not at a higher level because high level PCs just do these things.

I'm actually very surprised by that assessment of 9th level. Normally I see Pathfinder as-

1-5: Gimli, everything in the OG D&D movie up until Marlon Wayans dies, realistic medieval/action movies, Fast & Furious 1-4, Skullkickers, the average spellcaster in a Tolkien or Vance novel.

6-10: Captain America, Conan at his wildest, the latter half of the Fast & Furious franchise, quasi-realistic shonen, Dark Tower, Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon, the "special" (protagonist or key plot point) spellcasters (and only spellcasters) from a Tolkien or Vance novel, particularly skilled non-casters from Malazan Book of the Fallen, Beowulf, the rest of the Fast & Furious movies

11-15: Original series Naruto, Drizzt Do'Urden excluding the last 5 books, the members of the Avengers who are obviously more powerful than Captain America but not capable of ending a planet, the average spellcaster from Malazan Book of the Fallen, most protagonists by the second book in a series by Brandon Sanderson, most Final Fantasy characters by the time their game gets a show or movie made after it

16-20: Doctor Strange, Elminster, Thor, Cu Chulain, Pecos Bill, Drizzt Do'Urden including the most recent books, Szass Tam, Naruto: Shippuden and similar high-power anime

With 9th being the level where a fighter can One Punch Man his way through an army of bears unscathed and a halfling can single-handedly choke out a frost giant (whose neck his arms wouldn't physically fit around), I was genuinely surprised that shooting a weapon so it bounces back to you is where the line broke for some people, but it's interesting data to have and I'm looking forward to the playtest survey to dig into people's heads a bit more.


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If I'm gonna be really honest here, I feel the cartoonishness of the feats is actually a plus, but I know that's a stylistic choice.

I feel rebounding assault kinda needs the return function, for as silly as it can be, for no other reason that you can't put the returning rune on a sword or what have you, which would force the drifter into using thrown melee weapons.

If that was somehow patched (maybe a greater returning rune that gives something the thrown property as well as making it bounce back that kicks in at or before 9?), I'd be 100% fine with making it more of a hammer the gap kind of power


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As an avid Marvel fan and the original Naruto run I am surprised to see that a gun bouncing a weapon back based as a 9th falls in line with what you say.

Like Captain America's Shield is basically his only real power besides being superhuman, and even that falls more in line with say Incredible Ricochet since it's just the shield and it's his one specific iconic weapon (and tbh, it might as well just be called what it is, a magical weapon).

I mean even in Naruto, when we look at the characters that function purely as "martial" characters (like Rock Lee), I don't know that I've seen anything that bends the laws of reality so much as it is him being ultra superhuman.

The weapon bouncing back isn't a measure of superhuman ability to me, it requires us to say that the superhuman nature of the person is warping reality.

You mention a scene from a movie where that happens, can someone provide the link to a video of the scene in question? I would love to enhance my perspective on how this could be possible.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber
Michael Sayre wrote:


I was genuinely surprised that shooting a weapon so it bounces back to you is where the line broke for some people

I'm not sure it's as much "this is goofy" as it is "I can't even envision how this is supposed to work." Throw this in a feat at mid to high levels and I don't think anyone bats an eye necessarily.

Part of the struggle might be because gunslingers, especially Western drifter types, are typically viewed as pretty serious. A lot of folks want their gunslingers to be Eastwood, so the more anime the core of the class goes (as in, the inevitable bits that players who want a more grounded character can't avoid), the more at least a portion of players and GMs will wince.

Anyways. That's gonna show up on my survey, and I don't think it's the most important thing to consider about the class right now, but I think being able to build a more serious, grounded character should be a viable option. Avoiding goofy feats is easy but being stuck with a class feature that upsets your character concept? Pushback isn't surprising.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

Yeah, you have to be really absurdly powerful to have the cumulative unrealisticness of the rest of the kit to allow automatic and reflexive forgiving of really wacky things.


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I guess (in)credulity isn't simply a matter of power levels & strength.
Maybe dexterous exploits are more difficult to accept than violent ones?
Or maybe there's a lack of a foundation for linking those three actions:
-throwing nonthrown weapon
-shooting that weapon in a way that's actually helpful & doesn't harm weapon
-shooting that weapon such that it rebounds accurately
All three, on their own, seem suitable in a heroic fantasy genre, yet tossing them all together strains our brains (for some of us).
I can actually see a hero doing this for a fantastic finish in a dynamic battle, but when it becomes routine it loses some "rule of cool" oomph and degrades to silly. Unless say, a PC made it their shtick (via options) rather than it being something all Drifters can do, even those who could never do the composite actions.

Actually, maybe for me it really is that last bit of a bullet moving an embedded bastard sword (or floppy weapon like a whip or flail) so far backward and so accurately while also driving it forward for damage.
In many of those cases, like a Halfling choking out a giant or a fighter taking bear armies, there's an answer. It's an extraordinary, science-defying answer if one analyzes it, yes. But it's not self-contradictory like "the bullet drives the weapon deeper AND drives it backward too". Wuh? Which is perhaps why many of the tweaks in description in this thread make the same ability more palatable, i.e. maybe the bullet hits the weapon midair so it drives the weapon forward so it bounces back off of the enemy. (Then again, there are oozes...)

---
And fascinating list!
Though I'll point out that narratively some of those folk are all over the board on power, i.e. Drizzt struggling vs. mid-level monsters even though he'd killed a high-level dragon by then or superheroes so often hanging out with others way out of their league. (Batman varies in level from 5th to 20th! depending on the company he keeps/fights.)

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Note that these aren't intended as arguments, just responses to how I see the characters.

Midnightoker wrote:

As an avid Marvel fan and the original Naruto run I am surprised to see that a gun bouncing a weapon back based as a 9th falls in line with what you say.

Like Captain America's Shield is basically his only real power besides being superhuman, and even that falls more in line with say Incredible Ricochet since it's just the shield and it's his one specific iconic weapon (and tbh, it might as well just be called what it is, a magical weapon).

He's a super-soldier with strength, speed, durability, and healing all pushed to the edge of human limits. He also throws his shield over 30 feet to bounce it off of multiple targets before it bounces back to his hand on multiple occasions, often with someone else trying to do the same thing in the same arc or movie and failing miserably to show that it's a matter of training (or having someone else do it successfully for the "Oh crap, this guy is as good as Cap" moment).

Quote:


I mean even in Naruto, when we look at the characters that function purely as "martial" characters (like Rock Lee), I don't know that I've seen anything that bends the laws of reality so much as it is him being ultra superhuman.

At the age of 14 when he fights Gaara, Rock Lee is able to kick off the ground and ceiling so fast that other trained ninja who just survived a forest of death can't follow his movements and he moves over 50 feet in a single bound. By the end of the series, Guy Sensei punches a god into goo with nothing but Taijutsu and it's heavily implied that Rock Lee can do the same.

Quote:


The weapon bouncing back isn't a measure of superhuman ability to me, it requires us to say that the superhuman nature of the person is warping reality.

I don't know. Weapon bouncing has roots in the game that go deep, and exists as a core 1pp option through at least PF1 and 3.5. In 3.5 it was the Bloodstorm Blade PrC, in PF1 there was Bounding Hammer and Startoss Shower let you bounce a thrown weapon between numerous opponents like you're doing your best Xena impression. Of those, all of them are available earlier than 9th level by 3-6 levels.

Quote:


You mention a scene from a movie where that happens, can someone provide the link to a video of the scene in question? I would love to enhance my perspective on how this could be possible.

I think it's Leon Guerrero at about the halfway point when him and his friends are "training" (see "doing whacky gun shenanigans prior to shooting up bandits"), but I'll try and dig up the time marker.

I've also got this feature tagged to revisit; I think that when we developed it to clarify the mechanics and align them with how similar effects in the game work, we also made it a lot harder to picture (I think the original version was probably just a hair harder to parse mechanically but much more clear that you're throwing the melee weapon at an angle and then shooting the haft so that it tears the blade out of the wound and then rebounds off the target into the air where you catch it).

I expect we might also talk about doing things like moving Reloading Strike directly onto the drifter at a lower level and adding Dual-Weapon Reload as a 4th level feat, but that needs us to review the survey data first and make sure that's what people actually want; outside of small mechanics things that we knew were experimental the survey data almost never matches the forum chatter and usually has far more people giving input, so it's really hard to make any firm declarations this early in the process.

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Castilliano wrote:

And fascinating list!

Though I'll point out that narratively some of those folk are all over the board on power, i.e. Drizzt struggling vs. mid-level monsters even though he'd killed a high-level dragon by then or superheroes so often hanging out with others way out of their league. (Batman varies in level from 5th to 20th! depending on the company he keeps/fights.)

Totally agreed. I actually thought about putting Batman (the writer for a particular arc) at every level but worried that it would like I was making fun of Batman (he's actually far and away my favorite classic Justice League member; I tend to prefer the Teen Titans / Young Justice /Red Hood and the Outlaws characters because their power levels are generally more consistent within a given iteration and the writers seem more willing to explore the characters.)

Drizzt kind of comes in hot like maybe an 11th level character, gets a dial back to like a 7th level character, and then slowly realigns to high level again; by the most recent books where he's a

New Drizzt books:
multiclass ranger/monk who may or may not still have barbarian levels but can definitely do high level monk stuff
I'd say he's probably pushing 20 pretty easily, though I don't know if they've ever statted up those Abysmal retrievers as a point of comparison.


The Gaara Rock Lee fight is peak Naruto, and I hear you on the "moves so fast" portion, but to me that amounts to some kind of ability that makes it possible to use Stealth while Hasted/Blur is active.

I mean I hear you, but Naruto in particular gets pretty cray pretty quick, and as you mention, that comes online after 9th (11 - 15).

It's more tough to wrap my head around the abuse cases than the expected 10ft Rapier Thrown into the chest of an enemy.

That I can see pretty easy.

What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.

A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.

Now sure, rocket fist is kinda cool, but it's also really tough to imagine that.

Maybe if it had a range increment limit though. Just my take.


Sporkedup wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:


I was genuinely surprised that shooting a weapon so it bounces back to you is where the line broke for some people
I'm not sure it's as much "this is goofy" as it is "I can't even envision how this is supposed to work." Throw this in a feat at mid to high levels and I don't think anyone bats an eye necessarily.

Yeah, if we're talking Marvel, it's more scarlet witch using her Reality warping/Probability manipulation abilities to make something happen that would normally be a quadrillion to one chance. Shooting a thrown light hammer off a target and having said hammer fly back into your hand from 200' away fits Reality warping pretty well IMO. And that's with a hammer: make it a weapon that impales and is hard to remove like a Mambele or a barbed trident and it makes 'bouncing' even less tenable.


Want to add that some of this might be tied to using black powder weapons (and this goes for many of the basic tricks & rate of fire people protest as well).

If we went with "octarine powder" or "alchemical boomballs" then there'd be that "Well of course guns loaded with THAT can do this because it's consistent with what I know about such things...which all comes from the game."

It'd be kind of like if Ash told the knights his boomstick could do X, Y, & Z. We modern folk who know shotguns wouldn't believe anything too crazy, but the knight would because what explosive exploit can't a boomstick do!
We/PF2 need boomsticks, not shotguns (or black powder, historically recognizable firearms in this circumstance). Not that the guns would need a name change if they had a "secret formula" behind the screen.

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Midnightoker wrote:


What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.

A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.

Now sure, rocket fist is kinda cool, but it's also really tough to imagine that.

Semantics incoming!

That is not a completely legal move because you still have to be able to hit the target with the gauntlet, which has thrown 10 feet. You can't throw a thrown 10 weapon more than 60 feet, and that by taking a debilitating penalty.

graystone wrote:
Shooting a thrown light hammer off a target and having said hammer fly back into your hand from 200' away fits Reality warping pretty well IMO.

Again, not something you can actually do with Rebounding Assault, and if it was I'd totally agree that it's over the top.


Michael Sayre wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:


What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.

A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.

Now sure, rocket fist is kinda cool, but it's also really tough to imagine that.

Semantics incoming!

That is not a completely legal move because you still have to be able to hit the target with the gauntlet, which has thrown 10 feet. You can't throw a thrown 10 weapon more than 60 feet, and that by taking a debilitating penalty.

That's why you also MCD Rogue to get +10' to your range increment.

10 + 10 for 20, then x2 for Far Shot gets us to a 40' base increment, multiply that for a ridiculous maximum distance.


Castilliano wrote:
If we went with "octarine powder" or "alchemical boomballs" then there'd be that "Well of course guns loaded with THAT can do this because it's consistent with what I know about such things...which all comes from the game."

I could get behind it if the thrown weapon was a gunblade and the return shot was from the gun itself, kicking the gun out of the target. Still crazy and off the wall but not TOO insane.

Michael Sayre wrote:
Again, not something you can actually do with Rebounding Assault.

I missed why this isn't a thing. Light hammer has a range of 20', doubled for far shot to 40' out to 200' at 5 increment's. A hand crossbow had range 30', doubled to 60' out to 300' at 5 increments. Has there been a change that it needs to be in the first increment or something?


Michael Sayre wrote:


Semantics incoming!

That is not a completely legal move because you still have to be able to hit the target with the gauntlet, which has thrown 10 feet. You can't throw a thrown 10 weapon more than 60 feet, and that by taking a debilitating penalty.

Are you saying that Far Shot doesn't apply to Thrown 10ft?

Far Shot reads:

"Your experience in the field has taught you how to focus your aim at a distance, increasing your accuracy. Double your weapons’ range increments."

I'm not seeing how 100ft is off the table.


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Pathfinder Lost Omens, Rulebook Subscriber

(Also, I super appreciate Michael Sayre jumping in to discuss this stuff with us!)

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Midnightoker wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:


Semantics incoming!

That is not a completely legal move because you still have to be able to hit the target with the gauntlet, which has thrown 10 feet. You can't throw a thrown 10 weapon more than 60 feet, and that by taking a debilitating penalty.

Are you saying that Far Shot doesn't apply to Thrown 10ft?

Far Shot reads:

"Your experience in the field has taught you how to focus your aim at a distance, increasing your accuracy. Double your weapons’ range increments."

I'm not seeing how 100ft is off the table.

Not at all, I'm saying there's a vast gulf between "this ability enables this effect" and "this combination of at bare minimum two multiclass feats and a 9th level ability enables this effect and you'll still look like an idiot and lose your gauntlet 50% of the time you try it".

Rebounding Assault doesn't allow you to throw a gauntlet 100 feet or a hammer 200 feet; the 4th level ability Far Shot allowed you to do that. Rebounding Assault added a rider on a thing you could already do and then packaged it in an ability.

That being said, I think Rebounding Assault could benefit greatly from specifying that the activity has to happen within the thrown weapon's first range increment.


I'm looking over my character sheets to see what my characters gained between 8th and 10th levels that aren't number increases (i.e. represent entirely new things you can do)

I'm seeing stuff like:
- Deadly Aim, Swift Sneak, Stonewalker, Influence Nature, Incredible Companion
- Bleeding Finisher, Slippery Secrets, Exemplary Finisher, Celestial Wings, Aerobatics Expert, Dueling Dance
- Wild Winds Initiate, Battle Cry, Metal Strikes, Fortuitous Shift, Wind Jump, Kip Up
- Attack of Opportunity, Quick Climber, Raging Resistance, Vivacious Conduit, Knockback, Wall Jump.

So while some of these things are not physically plausible, a lot of those are explicitly magical, and I'm not really seeing anything as implausible as rebounding assault.

But maybe I'm not playing the right characters?


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Michael Sayre wrote:


That being said, I think Rebounding Assault could benefit greatly from specifying that the activity has to happen within the thrown weapons first range increment.

I know I just said "it's not realistic" but if it upped to 20ft thrown (or upgraded those with thrown to 20ft as well), that would be worth doing.

10ft is basically just reach unless I've been running "range" increments my whole life wrong (I assume the persons square is included).

Also to echo Waterslethe, you coming in here is awesome :) thank you


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Midnightoker wrote:


10ft is basically just reach unless I've been running "range" increments my whole life wrong (I assume the persons square is included)

The target's square is included, but not the shooter's.


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Ravingdork wrote:
Midnightoker wrote:


10ft is basically just reach unless I've been running "range" increments my whole life wrong (I assume the persons square is included)
The target's square is included, but not the shooter's.

Right, so 10ft Thrown is basically reach.


We need flubber bullets. :)

ETA:
Yes, 10' is Reach the weapon trait (for most PCs).

I think a version where they throw 10' (no more, not a range increment), shoot the weapon, then get a free Step to retrieve would work. That seems a much more melee/gunfighter kinda thing, even if still unrealistic.
Of course they need protection from AoOs while doing this, but that's true for most of what they do.
Maybe Drifters should get a free Stance like Mobile Shot Stance since they're supposed to be up in the thick of it, shooting.

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I'm looking over my character sheets to see what my characters gained between 8th and 10th levels that aren't number increases (i.e. represent entirely new things you can do)

I'm seeing stuff like:
- Deadly Aim, Swift Sneak, Stonewalker, Influence Nature, Incredible Companion
- Bleeding Finisher, Slippery Secrets, Exemplary Finisher, Celestial Wings, Aerobatics Expert, Dueling Dance
- Wild Winds Initiate, Battle Cry, Metal Strikes, Fortuitous Shift, Wind Jump, Kip Up
- Attack of Opportunity, Quick Climber, Raging Resistance, Vivacious Conduit, Knockback, Wall Jump.

So while some of these things are not physically plausible, a lot of those are explicitly magical, and I'm not really seeing anything as implausible as rebounding assault.

But maybe I'm not playing the right characters?

Feats and abilities of the same or lower level that land in the same level of incredulity for me personally:

Far Shot, Felling Strike (where you can hit a target so hard it loses its ability to magically levitate), Sudden Leap (where you can jump 60 feet or more into the air and make an attack), Arrow Snatching, Wall Run, Warden's Boon (where in 2 seconds you download a lifetime of hunting experience into a target's head long enough for them to completely and nonmagically evolve their fighting style for a round), Blind-Fight, Predictive Purchase (where you just mysteriously but non-magically have exactly what you need at any given moment), Vexing Tumble, Shackles of Law, Sense Chaos (this is nonmagical or wouldn't make the list), Cat Fall (falling 50 feet only to land standing up and then finishing a fight isn't something a human can do), Survey Wildlife (sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually tried hunting or realizes how ridiculous being able to potentially find and identify sign of every creature in an area is), and let me wrap up with-
Ricochet Stance, which a 6th level fighter (or 8th level rogue) can use to throw a hammer 100 feet and bounce back to his hand without any other feats or assistance.


Castilliano wrote:

We need flubber bullets. :)

ETA:
Yes, 10' is Reach the weapon trait (for most PCs).

I think a version where they throw 10' (no more, not a range increment), shoot the weapon, then get a free Step to retrieve would work. That seems a much more melee/gunfighter kinda thing, even if still unrealistic.
Of course they need protection from AoOs while doing this, but that's true for most of what they do.

Well a Step wouldn't trigger an AoO, unless the retrieve action is an Interact, in which case it would.

Michael Sayre wrote:

Far Shot, Felling Strike (where you can hit a target so hard it loses its ability to magically levitate), Sudden Leap (where you can jump 60 feet or more into the air and make an attack), Arrow Snatching, Wall Run, Warden's Boon (where in 2 seconds you download a lifetime of hunting experience into a target's head long enough for them to completely and nonmagically evolve their fighting style for a round), Blind-Fight, Predictive Purchase (where you just mysteriously but non-magically have exactly what you need at any given moment), Vexing Tumble, Shackles of Law, Sense Chaos (this is nonmagical or wouldn't make the list), Cat Fall (falling 50 feet only to land standing up and then finishing a fight isn't something a human can do), Survey Wildlife (sometimes I wonder if anyone has actually tried hunting or realizes how ridiculous being able to potentially find and identify sign of every creature in an area is), and let me wrap up with-

Ricochet Stance, which a 6th level fighter (or 8th level rogue) can use to throw a hammer 100 feet and bounce back to his hand without any other feats or assistance.

Okay, so this is how you pull off Tower Dive from DMC LOL

Paizo Employee Designer

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Midnightoker wrote:


Also to echo Waterslethe, you coming in here is awesome :) thank you

I actually really enjoy interacting with most of the forum peeps; as a few people know I was part of this community for years before working for Paizo and it's great to have the chance to interact with so many smart and perceptive gamers.

I want to thank you all for us being able to have this conversation and discuss where our views differ without it getting nasty or combative. I think it's really cool to see how various people see the game and where they see the characters that inspire them falling along the level range. Math is the relatively easy part of all this; unraveling how people see the game world and making something that has space for as many of them as possible is the real art of the thing and we need to be able to disagree about stuff amicably to find our middleground and the best path forward.


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I think another thing about reloading assault is that it includes three things that are not normally possible:

1) You can throw well a weapon that was not designed to throw.
2) You can shoot your bullet *exactly* where you want to go with extreme precision.
3) The resulting ricochet causes the weapon (again, not designed for aerodynamics) to fly back into your hand.

Something an activity to:
- throw your sword, which sticks in them
- shoot them, putting them off balance with the force of the shot
- step forward to pull your sword out of them (possibly with your boot for leverage), causing them to stagger/fall backwards.

Makes a lot more sense to me. Or just "impale, fire, retrieve, create distance" starting from melee range

But full disclosure my bias was in PF1 "Richochet shot" was a thing that I could handle with like the Xena-esque chakram, but extending it to javelins and throwing axes/knives was just a super gamey thing that mostly served to "making throwing weapon builds" viable.

Paizo Employee Designer

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PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think another thing about reloading assault is that it includes three things that are not normally possible:

1) You can throw well a weapon that was not designed to throw.
2) You can shoot your bullet *exactly* where you want to go with extreme precision.
3) The resulting ricochet causes the weapon (again, not designed for aeronautics) to fly back into your hand.

Something an activity to:
- throw your sword, which sticks in them
- shoot them, putting them off balance with the force of the shot
- step forward to pull your sword out of them (possibly with your boot for leverage), causing them to stagger/fall backwards.

Makes a lot more sense to me. Or just "impale, fire, retrieve, create distance" starting from melee range

But full disclosure my bias was in PF1 "Richochet shot" was a thing that I could handle with like the Xena-esque chakram, but extending it to javelins and throwing axes/knives was just a super gamey thing that mostly served to "making throwing weapon builds" viable.

That's fair and not that surprising, honestly. It's interesting that part of the problem might be the openness of the ability; at one point during the development phase, the gunslinger had defined "backup weapons" from specific categories. Off the top of my head I think drifters got one-handed swords or axes, pistoleros got thrown weapons, and snipers got bombs. We were actually worried that that was too narrow and blew it out a bit so that people could have more possible build choices, but in doing so we might have also destroyed some of the flavor that would make certain abilities easier for people to contextualize. The visual for Rebounding Assault was very much throwing your katana or tomahawk at someone, the weapon hitting, and then shooting the hilt to whip it out of them and into the air where you could catch it and be ready to attack again, a fantasy which definitely suffers if the weapon is a rapier or spear.

Kind of an interesting thing to ponder over.


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In my initial reaction, noticing that it was indeed a 9th level ability definitely softened the perceived wackiness because, indeed, leaping 30' straight up is right on par at those levels. Same with running up a wall. Now especially understanding the intended visual of shooting the haft at an angle to dislodge the weapon (or perhaps in bludgeoning, alter the spin so that it flies back) really brings this ability back within the realm of 'I understand how/why that's intended to work' regardless how plausible it realistically would be.

For me the bullet not damaging the weapon is no more a problem than any other time a weapon should be taking damage, such as back at level 5 when my party beat on a animated statue for a minute to turn it to rubble.

My objections to this ability specifically are rapidly dwindling. I do like the idea of a short dash in to retrieve the weapon from the body, but even if it remained a rebound I don't think I would have nearly as much objection in light of these insights. That said, part of me still kind of feels like it ought be a thing for a melee-and-gun slinger in general, rather than being locked into the drifter and gained by all drifters... but I think my objections more or less have been laid to rest.


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I don't hate rebounding shot, but I wouldn't mind some restrictions on what you can use it with, and I wouldn't mind seeing it as a feat instead of a core feature.


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Michael Sayre wrote:


That's fair and not that surprising, honestly. It's interesting that part of the problem might be the openness of the ability; at one point during the development phase, the gunslinger had defined "backup weapons" from specific categories. Off the top of my head I think drifters got one-handed swords or axes, pistoleros got thrown weapons, and snipers got bombs.

I am not going to lie, that actually would have changed my whole initial perception of the class from "eh" to "okay this is sick".

Guns+ as a Class Path would be a fantastic way to handle that IMO.

Now, how selective you limit the "+" option could certainly hurt things in some areas (like my way of the drifter John Wick unarmed build), but I feel like if you opened up the trait system for the selection process you could make it work a lot better.

In short, here's one vote to go back to that idea. I love the sound of that.


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Midnightoker wrote:
Michael Sayre wrote:


That's fair and not that surprising, honestly. It's interesting that part of the problem might be the openness of the ability; at one point during the development phase, the gunslinger had defined "backup weapons" from specific categories. Off the top of my head I think drifters got one-handed swords or axes, pistoleros got thrown weapons, and snipers got bombs.

I am not going to lie, that actually would have changed my whole initial perception of the class from "eh" to "okay this is sick".

Guns+ as a Class Path would be a fantastic way to handle that IMO.

Now, how selective you limit the "+" option could certainly hurt things in some areas (like my way of the drifter John Wick unarmed build), but I feel like if you opened up the trait system for the selection process you could make it work a lot better.

In short, here's one vote to go back to that idea. I love the sound of that.

Yeah, I second this. This sounds awesome - and kinda already how I was planning to build out my Alkenstar Sniper.


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Seriously, sniper with bombs? My god think of how awesome that is.

Bonus points for smoke bombs too, which is thematic with the trope. Sniper is the one I feel really needs help at the moment, and bombs would have totally change that feeling.

Silver Crusade

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Michael Sayre wrote:
I'm actually very surprised by that assessment of 9th level. Normally I see Pathfinder as-

Two different scales.

There's "I hit harder and harder as I get stronger" and "s$%! gets weirder more and more". Two completely different scales, with Rebounding Assault being the latter.

Silver Crusade

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Michael Sayre wrote:
graystone wrote:
Shooting a thrown light hammer off a target and having said hammer fly back into your hand from 200' away fits Reality warping pretty well IMO.
Again, not something you can actually do with Rebounding Assault, and if it was I'd totally agree that it's over the top.

Tangent, but "I shoot a thrown weapon/explosive back at its thrower" would be a cool Reaction to have.

A more over the top one without being silly would be to redirect a ranged attack so you hit the instigator and one of their allies as a sorta-cleave attack.

Dark Archive

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Michael Sayre wrote:
PossibleCabbage wrote:

I think another thing about reloading assault is that it includes three things that are not normally possible:

1) You can throw well a weapon that was not designed to throw.
2) You can shoot your bullet *exactly* where you want to go with extreme precision.
3) The resulting ricochet causes the weapon (again, not designed for aeronautics) to fly back into your hand.

Something an activity to:
- throw your sword, which sticks in them
- shoot them, putting them off balance with the force of the shot
- step forward to pull your sword out of them (possibly with your boot for leverage), causing them to stagger/fall backwards.

Makes a lot more sense to me. Or just "impale, fire, retrieve, create distance" starting from melee range

But full disclosure my bias was in PF1 "Richochet shot" was a thing that I could handle with like the Xena-esque chakram, but extending it to javelins and throwing axes/knives was just a super gamey thing that mostly served to "making throwing weapon builds" viable.

That's fair and not that surprising, honestly. It's interesting that part of the problem might be the openness of the ability; at one point during the development phase, the gunslinger had defined "backup weapons" from specific categories. Off the top of my head I think drifters got one-handed swords or axes, pistoleros got thrown weapons, and snipers got bombs. We were actually worried that that was too narrow and blew it out a bit so that people could have more possible build choices, but in doing so we might have also destroyed some of the flavor that would make certain abilities easier for people to contextualize. The visual for Rebounding Assault was very much throwing your katana or tomahawk at someone, the weapon hitting, and then shooting the hilt to whip it out of them and into the air where you could catch it and be ready to attack again, a fantasy which definitely suffers if the weapon is a rapier or spear.

Kind of an interesting thing to ponder over.

As lover of fiddly stuff, I actually really would have liked that backup weapon dealio :O

(Also I'm still hoping the rebounding assault gets changed as little as possible, but I do agree there are other good alternative suggestions here xD)


Michael Sayre wrote:

Note that these aren't intended as arguments, just responses to how I see the characters.

Midnightoker wrote:

As an avid Marvel fan and the original Naruto run I am surprised to see that a gun bouncing a weapon back based as a 9th falls in line with what you say.

Like Captain America's Shield is basically his only real power besides being superhuman, and even that falls more in line with say Incredible Ricochet since it's just the shield and it's his one specific iconic weapon (and tbh, it might as well just be called what it is, a magical weapon).

He's a super-soldier with strength, speed, durability, and healing all pushed to the edge of human limits. He also throws his shield over 30 feet to bounce it off of multiple targets before it bounces back to his hand on multiple occasions, often with someone else trying to do the same thing in the same arc or movie and failing miserably to show that it's a matter of training (or having someone else do it successfully for the "Oh crap, this guy is as good as Cap" moment).

And it gets even more over the top if you include the things people said to be without superpowers like Hawkeye or Bullseye can do.


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If you do decide to give each way a set secondary weapon, absolutely please to not neglect the pistol/shield combo, since we are talking about captain america here. The shield throw can actually be replicated really nicely with rebounding assault (provided you're okay with a gun being used) and I really enjoy shield + a ranged weapon combos.

A limit you could put on rebounding could simply be something like "if you deal piercing damage with the thrown weapon, it doesn't rebound" to factor in the weirdness of rebounding a rapier or a spear, without having to employ too many weapon limitations.

Imo, I'd like to see sidearm themed feats, but I'm not sure I'd want to see them limited to a specific gunslinger way. A pistolero who sometimes busts out some tricks with a bomb to cause a distraction and some confusion in case the friends of the guy he just beat in a duel get rowdy is just as much part of my gunslinger fantasy as a battle hardened soldier who uses such grenades to smoke out people from behind cover before going in for the kill shot


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Honestly, an ability that just flat out read:

Back-up Weapon
Choose a weapon group at level 1, once this choice is made it cannot be changed. You gain Expert Proficiency with simple one-handed weapons of this type and it advances proficiency with your firearm and crossbow proficiency.

Then have feats that build off of Backup weapons in combination with your firearms.

At least leaves it open for every Gunslinger to have a back-up weapon that's appropriate.


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Midnightoker wrote:

Honestly, an ability that just flat out read:

Back-up Weapon
Choose a weapon group at level 1, once this choice is made it cannot be changed. You gain Expert Proficiency with simple one-handed weapons of this type and it advances proficiency with your firearm and crossbow proficiency.

Then have feats that build off of Backup weapons in combination with your firearms.

At least leaves it open for every Gunslinger to have a back-up weapon that's appropriate.

Only simple?

And if it's a backup weapon, only one-handed? (Yes, that's important for combos, but maybe they truly want it as a backup weapon.)

ETA: I do agree with the direction you're suggesting. :)


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Only simple means that the Gunslinger isn't automatically better than the Fighter for proficiency from 5th level (whereupon the Fighter only progresses in one weapon group, while the Gunslinger would be progressing in two).

I'd assume that options like bayonets (knife group) and reinforced stocks (club group) and whatnot would be simple weapons that fulfill the want for stronger/two handed options. Unlike the martial shield bosses, which make for slightly awkward balance on something you want to be as stable as possible, attaching a knife to a musket and stabbing with it isn't terribly complicated.

Knives and clubs also come with a decent-ish selection of finesse weapons at simple for dual wielding. The lack of a simple axe is odd, though.

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