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Only simple means that the Gunslinger isn't automatically better than the Fighter for proficiency from 5th level (whereupon the Fighter only progresses in one weapon group, while the Gunslinger would be progressing in two).
I'd assume that options like bayonets (knife group) and reinforced stocks (club group) and whatnot would be simple weapons that fulfill the want for stronger/two handed options. Unlike the martial shield bosses, which make for slightly awkward balance on something you want to be as stable as possible, attaching a knife to a musket and stabbing with it isn't terribly complicated.
Knives and clubs also come with a decent-ish selection of finesse weapons at simple for dual wielding. The lack of a simple axe is odd, though.
This was my thinking.
Maybe you could make it a weapon group or a specific weapon type, and if you choose the latter it extends to Martial weapons as well.
But yeah functionally, you can't just give them Expert with all in the group, otherwise I feel like Gunslinger could ultra quickly completely invalidate the Fighter entirely (and maybe the ranger too). Be the best switch hitter in the game by a mile, and honestly, in a PF2 meta that's really good.
Like abuse case wise, choosing Sword, going Shortsword and then dropping both and drawing a Greatsword with Expert Prof.
So I think the 1-handed thing is totally reasonable (IMO), but perhaps to satisfy Gunblades/Gunhybrids you could find a way to write it to where it extended to include attachments to Firearms (perhaps include Attached to Firearm as a choice).
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Not to plug my own houserules in yet another thread, but the bayonets I have in my game are basically just daggers that drop the thrown, agile, and finesse property in exchange for attached and doing 1d6 damage. When detached, they gain finesse and agile, but do a d4 damage die, and it works out pretty well.
Im actually fine though just leaving the gunslinger to only get a single group of 1 handed simple and martial weapons alongside their guns. Gunblades and the like feel more like an inventor thing or a rare weapon in the vein of a palm crossbow. Given that we have hammer and axe muskets in 1e, I wouldn't be shocked if we saw conversions as rare equipment
Edit: now that I think of it though, an axe/hammer musket would certainly be 2 handed, and a gunslinger should be able to use them, so maybe just let em have a single simple/martial weapon group and not complicate things. Most side arm feats are doing to need something in their text to work anyways, like the bomb one letting you chuck a bomb and shooting it even with a 2h gun
What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.
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Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
It is a weapon and Rebounding Assault gives any weapon Thrown 10ft. Michael Sayre confirmed it is not disallowed by RAW upthread.
It is a weapon and Rebounding Assault gives any weapon Thrown 10ft. Michael Sayre confirmed it is not disallowed by RAW upthread.Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
Cool, this makes gauntlets seem like one of the more fun options for drifter, allows you to use all your deeds as well as the feats that require interacting like Alchemical shot and Running reload.
Rebounding assault's silliness also goes up by a lot with gauntlets, now I'm imagining some adventurer violently flapping their arm to get their gauntlet to fly off before shooting it and the gauntlet then somehow lands perfectly back on their arm.| 1 person marked this as a favorite. |
I would argue against making rebounding assault have to be within the first range increment. If you are able to roll high enough to hit with the 10-foot increment out to 50 feet or further with some other combo, then it seems fair to let it happen.
In my experience, players seem to get the rules wrong less when their abilities don't wait until the last sentence to describe a limitation preventing them from trying the cool/ridiculous idea they have. And I'd be happy to let them roll at that -10 if they really want to.
I would argue against making rebounding assault have to be within the first range increment.
I'm torn. The greater the distance, the more is stretches credulity but the shorter the distance the less useful it becomes especially if it's a 10' range weapon. It's kind of catch 22 and I'm not sure which way I want it to go. :P
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I would argue against making rebounding assault have to be within the first range increment.I'm torn. The greater the distance, the more is stretches credulity but the shorter the distance the less useful it becomes especially if it's a 10' range weapon. It's kind of catch 22 and I'm not sure which way I want it to go. :P
First we have to figure out its purpose in the spectrum of Gunslinger abilities. What bump in either effectiveness or breadth was that meant to cover that put it into the "must-have" chassis of that Way rather than some other ability? Did Paizo want to help their melee attack work at range for a reason? Saw it done in an anime or obscure movie?
Dunno.| 4 people marked this as a favorite. |
I would argue against making rebounding assault have to be within the first range increment.I'm torn. The greater the distance, the more is stretches credulity but the shorter the distance the less useful it becomes especially if it's a 10' range weapon. It's kind of catch 22 and I'm not sure which way I want it to go. :PFirst we have to figure out its purpose in the spectrum of Gunslinger abilities. What bump in either effectiveness or breadth was that meant to cover that put it into the "must-have" chassis of that Way rather than some other ability? Did Paizo want to help their melee attack work at range for a reason? Saw it done in an anime or obscure movie?
Dunno.
This is the big thing for me.
Is it a bit out there? Sure.
But like, why would I want to do this? What's my incentive?
It's connecting dots A->C->D->B and you realize connecting dots A->B was all you really needed to do.
Let's look at Power Attack for instance. It's pretty bland, but the point of it is to be a hard hitting move with some power behind it. It's not pretending to be complicated, it does what it does.
This ability is like "Okay, so this is basically a dual strike with extra steps and a hard to visualize component of potential exploitation".
And if I felt like this enabled a theme, concept, or playstyle in general, maybe the complexity would feel good.
But right now it just feels like weird wuxia craziness with little benefit to both the Gunslinger and to exemplifying a gunslinger concept.
As someone that thrives within trying to exemplify movie concepts and themes I get that itch, but this one is lost on me.
Other people really think it's cool, but I can't help but wonder if they feel that way simply because it is so hard to believe and not because it's an actual useful and cool ability.
I guess cool is subjective, like running on a wall is considered cool for some, but others might find it silly/dumb.
But at least running on a wall has a tactical advantage of being able to move in a vector that you otherwise couldn't.
Shooting your weapon for bonus damage could be cool but I'd also like it to operate in a vector of "usefulness" that's unique as opposed to weird Double Strike with extra steps.
If you're going to go crazy, make it do something crazy. When the only crazy thing it does is solve the problem it created, it's like "robbing peter to pay paul" in coolness.
Idk. Probably none of this makes any sense.... It's a "feel" thing.
It is a weapon and Rebounding Assault gives any weapon Thrown 10ft. Michael Sayre confirmed it is not disallowed by RAW upthread.Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
If a gauntlet was not worn, then I'd agree with this. But it's a worn item, so no. It shouldn't work that way. If that's the case, unarmed strikes should work too.
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If a gauntlet was not worn, then I'd agree with this. But it's a worn item, so no. It shouldn't work that way. If that's the case, unarmed strikes should work too.It is a weapon and Rebounding Assault gives any weapon Thrown 10ft. Michael Sayre confirmed it is not disallowed by RAW upthread.Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
Unarmed Strikes don't work because it specifies weapon.
I don't disagree it's silly, but it does work by RAW.
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If a gauntlet was not worn, then I'd agree with this. But it's a worn item, so no. It shouldn't work that way. If that's the case, unarmed strikes should work too.It is a weapon and Rebounding Assault gives any weapon Thrown 10ft. Michael Sayre confirmed it is not disallowed by RAW upthread.Can you even throw gauntlets RAW? They don't take up a hand and can't be disarmed so it would seem weird if you could just easily let go of one and let it fly out of your hand, especially if it's built into your armor.What I can't see is a Gunslinger Way of the Drifter MCD into Ranger (probably going to be a common MCD and doesn't miss the level 9 boat) with Far Shot doing Rebounding Assault at maximum distance with a Spiked Guantlet.
A completely legal move mind you, to Shoot, Throw your gauntlet 100ft, and then have it return to you.
Unarmed Strikes don't work because it specifies weapon.
I don't disagree it's silly, but it does work by RAW.
I suppose, but we can extend that argument to, say, a horned helmet that does D4 piercing, or even one of the specific armors (I think there are Full Plate ones) that have an attack. Would you let someone throw their armor or helmet that they are wearing with this ability?
Even if RAW is yes, GM FIAT and other existing mechanics (such as wearing gauntlets to make attacks with them, or armor to protect yourself, the latter of which takes excessive time to don or remove) would kick in and say no.
I suppose, but we can extend that argument to, say, a horned helmet that does D4 piercing, or even one of the specific armors (I think there are Full Plate ones) that have an attack. Would you let someone throw their armor or helmet that they are wearing with this ability?Even if RAW is yes, GM FIAT and other existing mechanics (such as wearing gauntlets to make attacks with them, or armor to protect yourself, the latter of which takes excessive time to don or remove) would kick in and say no.
Imagine how hilarious this ability would be if Spiked Armor was still a thing.
You launch yourself at the enemy and then return to your hand (causing a pardox and disappearing from existence).
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I suppose, but we can extend that argument to, say, a horned helmet that does D4 piercing, or even one of the specific armors (I think there are Full Plate ones) that have an attack. Would you let someone throw their armor or helmet that they are wearing with this ability?Even if RAW is yes, GM FIAT and other existing mechanics (such as wearing gauntlets to make attacks with them, or armor to protect yourself, the latter of which takes excessive time to don or remove) would kick in and say no.
Imagine how hilarious this ability would be if Spiked Armor was still a thing.
You launch yourself at the enemy and then return to your hand (causing a pardox and disappearing from existence).
I now want a Cannon Ball feat with "oversized" firearms, where you can shoot someone one or two sizes smaller than you at enemies, dealing bludgeoning damage to the target, as well as half the bludgeoning damage to the "ammunition," with persistent burning damage equal to the weapon damage dice.
Hell, don't make it a feat, make it a monster ability, call it Cannon Fodder, and I'll be happy.
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I suppose, but we can extend that argument to, say, a horned helmet that does D4 piercing, or even one of the specific armors (I think there are Full Plate ones) that have an attack. Would you let someone throw their armor or helmet that they are wearing with this ability?Even if RAW is yes, GM FIAT and other existing mechanics (such as wearing gauntlets to make attacks with them, or armor to protect yourself, the latter of which takes excessive time to don or remove) would kick in and say no.
Imagine how hilarious this ability would be if Spiked Armor was still a thing.
You launch yourself at the enemy and then return to your hand (causing a pardox and disappearing from existence).
I now want a Cannon Ball feat with "oversized" firearms, where you can shoot someone one or two sizes smaller than you at enemies, dealing bludgeoning damage to the target, as well as half the bludgeoning damage to the "ammunition," with persistent burning damage equal to the weapon damage dice.
Hell, don't make it a feat, make it a monster ability, call it Cannon Fodder, and I'll be happy.
Specifically, an ogre loading goblins into its blunderbuss. It's begging to be a scatter attack.
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Specifically, an ogre loading goblins into its blunderbuss. It's begging to be a scatter attack.
Exploding goblins, like the Saibamen from when Napa/Vegeta come to earth (poor Yamcha)