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In order to encourage rampant speculation and, frankly, because I'm bored right now, I'd like to ask the forum what they think the next rulebook after Secrets of Magic will be, and what classes will be in it. If we follow the pattern of 3 rulebooks a year, there should be a late 2021 release still to be announced. So I'd like to get the ball rolling in guessing what it will be.
A couple rules for this game:
1. Name the book and theme. Can be as vague or as tight of a theme as you'd like, but please bear in mind that they're looking at books that can be dropped into or out of a campaign to heavily tilt the theme of it, the way Ultimate Intrigue really went deep into Intrigue and Social Encounter type of playing.
2. Name the 3 classes you think will be in that book. All should in some way relate to the book's theme. You can pick fewer than 3, but what fun would that be?
2a. Of the 3, one should not be based on a PF1 class. What new thing do you think they're cooking up for us?
I'll start. I actually have 2 ideas, but I'll stick with 1 for now.
Rulebook: Art of Technology
An equipment focused book, featuring several types of items and how they fit into the setting. Also includes rules for adjusting the technology of the setting from Bronze Age to High Futuristic, with new items to support each of these technological levels. Basically take the tech chapter of Ultimate Combat, the magic item section of Ultimate Magic, the entire Technology guide, a sampling of items inspired by Ultimate Equipment (suitably updated to PF2), and a passel of new rules and character options intended to make use of or craft up the equipment in new ways, and put it out as a release.
Featured Class
1. Antiquarian (renamed Occultist)- An Occult Partial caster, they draw on the power of seemingly ordinary objects, though whether they imbue the objects with their own abilities or simply tap into overlooked potential is a matter of debate. The three main groupings are Relic Masters, Runic Mages, and Talisman Crafters.
2. Drifter (renamed and expanded Gunslinger)- With a steady hand and a stern gaze, these men and women rarely go looking for fights, but they certainly finish them, sometimes before they truly begin. Armed not just with pistols or blades, they draw on powerful reactions called Retorts based on the actions of their enemies and allies, and are also able to make further use of fortune and misfortune effects than any other character. Depending on how they make use of fortune, Drifters are categorized as either the Bold, the Desperate, or the Chaotician.
3. Inventor - Taking the tried and true as mere starting points, Inventors push equipment to their limits and then passed. Focusing on non-alchemical crafting, the basic ability of an inventor is to manipulate and add traits onto equipment, mostly weapons and armor, but some also gain the ability to add traits to other types of equipment as well (note: this would require a new pool of traits for general items). All inventors have an uncanny knack for improvising weapons and armor out of almost anything. Some of these jury-rigged contraptions are as deadly to the inventors as their enemies, but an inventor is always learning, even from their own mistakes.
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Gods and Magic 2: 300 More of 'Em!
uh, I mean
Rulebook: Call of Nature
A book focused on nature, wilderness, and primal spellcasting. Has expanded rules for wilderness exploration as well as variant rules for making survival in the wilds grittier/more interesting. Obviously contains a ton of stuff for druids and rangers, but also has more animal companions and specific familiar options, as well as a sprinkling of nature-based feats for other classes. Oh, and nature/survival skill feats of course.
Classes:
Shifter: A martial focus caster in the same vein as champion, but with most of their combat effectiveness coming from turning into animals, beasts, elementals, and other creatures. Ideally, compared to a wild druid, they're given forms that completely scale with them rather than getting replaced at higher levels, as well as allowing for partial transformations to be a valid build style.
Kineticist: Alright, this one is a bit of a stretch, but it's a book at least partially about primal magic, so how could you ignore the conduits of the elemental planes? Maybe include some of the more esoteric elements like wood early on.
Warden: Either another focus caster martial or it shares whatever spell progression the Magus ends up having, but a primal caster. Based off the 4e class of the same name, but with a less defensive angle since that would be too close to the champion. So I would make the Warden more of an area control character, giving them the ability to create and manipulate natural difficult terrain, entangling enemies with vines, that sort of thing.
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Okay now I want that book too.
I definitely admire how you hit the three big points of Primal magic: plants, animals, and elemental damage.
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Dogma of War
Classes:
The classes that were used in the wars
Drifter
Inquisitor
*New Class* Commander
New Systems:
pack combat/tactics
Siege Weapons/Castles/Fortresses
Would love to see this with Kingmaker since I think they would go together rather well :)
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Okay now I want that book too.
I definitely admire how you hit the three big points of Primal magic: plants, animals, and elemental damage.
I wish I could say it was intentional to hit all three!
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Not serious, but...
Rulebook: The Book That One Person On the Forums Keeps Asking For
A book focused on allowing you to play powerful ancestries like dragons from level 1 to 20 while keeping in line with the power levels of a regular party. Ancestries get nerfed as necessary for lower levels, then give class feat options for obtaining powerful abilities associated with their species when the level can allow for it. Ancestry Class Feats would require a Ancestry Dedication feat to make it equivalent to an archetype in feat expenditure. If you don't go into it you can just play a "baby" version of your ancestry for the rest of your career.
Featured Classes:
1. Shifter. Gives a "plays a monster" character option for people who don't want to allow powerful ancestries.
2. Blood Scion. A chassis focused on taking ancestry bound class feats, as well as opening options based on your ancestry traits.
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I have used my gift of Augury to see that the next book will be 'Magic of Secrets', a thrilling 268 page book detailing espionage and covert options for tense negotiations and high-society intrigue. It will include variant rules like "everybody in the party is secretly a vigilante but they think they are the only one and can't let the rest of the party know", as well as the totally-not-story-derailing "bards trying to seduce every person of import they come across". Magic of Secrets will launch alongside the surprise 2e conversion of War for the Crown.
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I’m not going to lie the Magic of Secrets would be a pretty slick wordplay title. Especially if the other books followed suit.
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Might as well enter in my second guess.
Places of Power
There is a ton of mythology and literature about places both sacred and profane that are, in some way or another, powerful in their own right. This book would be about those places and the campaigns that center them, be it a single treasure room, a haunted house, a megadungeon, or an entire city or even kingdom. Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the book would be dedicated to an "encounter codex", 1 page single room or small dungeon maps that are reused several times for a mix of encounter types each (social, combat, puzzle/investigation, even some where you are the owner and defender). The encounter descriptions should be no more than 1 page, including any new stat blocks needed, and each map should also contain at least 1 character option (feat, archetype, treasure, etc.). Ideally, these maps would be a mix of new and currently digitalized flip mats, though they need not be limited to Pathfinder mats.
Classes:
-Shaman: Spontaneous primal casters, of a sort, they are able to make temporary and permanent bonds with nature spirits, which determines both the focus spells and powers they command, but also their signature spells each morning.
-Medium: No one can multiclass like a Medium can multiclass. While mostly following a caster's proficiencies, including the ability to cast innate Occult cantrips each day, instead of spell slots the medium gains a flexible multiclass dedication at 1st level, and an additional flexible multiclass feat (though must be for the same class as their dedication) at 3rd and every odd level. They also gain the ability to qualify for MC feats 1 level early.
As the flavor for this is the ability to channel the spirit of a departed person, they also gain some measure of control over haunts and ghosts in general. Including the ability to spontaneously create haunts like a Ranger can create snares.
-Mastermind: Able to organize and direct other characters, these characters might be in the government, a criminal guild, a cabal of casters, or anywhere else that people gather. Noble Masterminds use their charisma skills to aid or befuddle, Adepts focus on abilities like Group Sustain and tandem casting (and gain Partial divine casting of their own), and Experts are champions of aid another, follow the leader, and just in general facilitating group use of skills in downtime, exploration, and combat.
Beyond the new classes, new character options would be a metric ton of new rituals, lots of new hazards/snares/haunts, a few new archetypes, and new options for existing archetypes like Snarecrafter, Vigilante, Archeologist, and Marshal.
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Not serious, but...
Rulebook: The Book That One Person On the Forums Keeps Asking For
A book focused on allowing you to play powerful ancestries like dragons from level 1 to 20 while keeping in line with the power levels of a regular party. Ancestries get nerfed as necessary for lower levels, then give class feat options for obtaining powerful abilities associated with their species when the level can allow for it. Ancestry Class Feats would require a Ancestry Dedication feat to make it equivalent to an archetype in feat expenditure. If you don't go into it you can just play a "baby" version of your ancestry for the rest of your career.Featured Classes:
1. Shifter. Gives a "plays a monster" character option for people who don't want to allow powerful ancestries.
2. Blood Scion. A chassis focused on taking ancestry bound class feats, as well as opening options based on your ancestry traits.
Nah, this sounds like a great theme. Powerful ancestries are notorious for derailing campaigns, so tackling it head on and enabling new options sounds like a very PF2 thing to aim for.
Since this would also benefit hugely from new ancestry creation rules, I'm all for it.
I also remember a comment of yours inspiring a joke from me in return, where I proposed a class where you got 10 extra ancestry feats instead of class feats, and a couple extra heritages along the way to level 20.
Add in 15-20 or agnostic ancestry feats, and call it done.
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All joking aside, I think that the book focusing on the Mwangi expanse is a great portent of what is to come. My actual guess is that we are going to get a world-guide book on the Mana Wastes (general Geb and Nex tomfoolery), alongside an AP that moves through that area. Like how Strength of Thousands is going to be an AP that has some buy-in (All users are there to learn magic, c'mon don't play against type and be a superstition barbarian), I think that the counterbalance will be a low magic (with technology like guns or clockwork stuff) AP across the Mana Wastes. It maps to the current style of release and it's a perfect way to flesh out an area people have begged for. And Strength of Thousands shows that they could release an AP that may be low magic in the future (since I am brazenly assuming SoT will be high-magic).
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Man, these are ALL great ideas. I was even going to suggest a Drifter/Antiquarian combo book, but got beaten to the punch!
(Plus I like the elevator pitches for classes I'm seeing here. Fantastic Medium design, too.)
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Kineticist: Alright, this one is a bit of a stretch, but it's a book at least partially about primal magic, so how could you ignore the conduits of the elemental planes? Maybe include some of the more esoteric elements like wood early on.
I like the idea of focusing on the more 'natural' feeling elements of air, earth, fire, water and wood (and perhaps cold/ice, or storm/lightning) right off the bat, and stick to other, more esoteric/occult options, later.
For the Warden, a 'Green Knight' class that wears magically reinforced wooden armor, and uses primarily wooden weapons like a stabby thornblade (like a short sword), spear or 'thornlash' (woven thorny vines used like a scorpion whip), and having various plant-themed abilities like paralytic toxins, choking spore clouds, entangling vines, bursts of wooden splinters acting like a hail of arrows, or spears of wood jutting up from the ground to impale adjacent foes and make the terrain diffult, etc. could be fun.
Maybe even something funky and unexpected like the ability to absorb a light or water based attack and use it to fuel a temporary burst of growth/enlarge self effect, or reactive casting of an entangle or wall of thorns like spell or whatever.
But yeah, wood armor, wood weapons. A 'Green Knight.' I'd totally go for that.
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The Elementary Guide to Elements
Starring:the Kineticist with her Classic Elements and the Warper with his Exotic Elements* (An occult/martial class based on twisting his body and mind by harnessing the power of other planes.)
*Acid, Shadow, Chaos
Guest Starring: the Druidic Sea Order, the Oracle's Crystalline Mystery, and the Bloodrager (as a Barbarian Instinct similar to Eldritch Trickster Rogue)
Featuring: New element-related Witch Patrons (Inferno, Buried, and Sunken) and Bard Muse (the attention-grabbing Luminary), new elemental spells for all casters and special element attack feats for martials (like the Gale Slash), Elemental Adjustment Wizard Thesis, and the Alchemist Sprayer (A new contraption for dousing foe or friend in your concoctions.) along with new items.
Warning: Contains new hazards, monsters, and horrible ways to die (or wish you did).
2. Drifter (renamed and expanded Gunslinger)- With a steady hand and a stern gaze, these men and women rarely go looking for fights, but they certainly finish them, sometimes before they truly begin. Armed not just with pistols or blades, they draw on powerful reactions called Retorts based on the actions of their enemies and allies, and are also able to make further use of fortune and misfortune effects than any other character. Depending on how they make use of fortune, Drifters are categorized as either the Bold, the Desperate, or the Chaotician.Look, if you're going to have a gunslinger-like class with three subclasses, the names of those classes should be obvious.
Two are alignment-locked, the third requires you to have a negative charisma modifier.
Also they sound kind of twee, and fail to articulate how the core subclass mechanics work. You can rename Bold to "Good", Desperate/Desperado to "Ugly", and Chaotician to "Bad"...but I choose not to.
I have a strong feeling that the next book will be technology themed and include the gunslinger. I vaguely remember a stream where jason buhlman had said they intend to release the gunslinger and a bunch of support with it, and soon.
Two are alignment-locked, the third requires you to have a negative charisma modifier.High charisma does not mean pretty.
Oh I'm aware, just needed a way to complete the joke.
Why not both? There's room for a Harrow class. Not sure how the mechanics would shake out, but the thematic potential is there.
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The Planeswalkers. A book about the planes giving some more in-depth information about some of the larger planes and a few of the rarer demiplnes. Can include rules about underwater combat, aerial combat, exploring bizarre locations, dealing with various ‘outsiders’ and so on.
Classes:
Kineticist - fairly obvious
Arcanist - had some aspects that related to creating weird planar rifts and so, so can build upon that.
Souleater - consuming souls or part thereof to absorb some of their powers
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Souleater - consuming souls or part thereof to absorb some of their powers
Not in love with that, specifically, but I would be intrigued by a class that focuses on manipulating it's own soul (and perhaps enhancing / debuffing others by affecting their souls). Funky stuff like splitting off part of the soul to go scout, or to stand watch while the rest of you sleeps, or to soar out and try to possess someone... (which, at low levels, will be beyond it, but it might be able to get in there and 'struggle' with them and give them a penalty to do stuff as it's fighting their every action from within their own body).
It'd work best, obviously, in a cosmology like that of ancient Egypt, where the soul had seven components, and they could be fragmented off, but it's certainly do-able even with just the one soul.
Not in love with that, specifically, but I would be intrigued by a class that focuses on manipulating it's own soul (and perhaps enhancing / debuffing others by affecting their souls). Funky stuff like splitting off part of the soul to go scout, or to stand watch while the rest of you sleeps, or to soar out and try to possess someone... (which, at low levels, will be beyond it, but it might be able to get in there and 'struggle' with them and give them a penalty to do stuff as it's fighting their every action from within their own body).
It'd work best, obviously, in a cosmology like that of ancient Egypt, where the soul had seven components, and they could be fragmented off, but it's certainly do-able even with just the one soul.
Not going to lie I think this concept/mechanics would work really well for the Shaman if it were to make a comeback.
Might as well enter in my second guess.
Places of Power
There is a ton of mythology and literature about places both sacred and profane that are, in some way or another, powerful in their own right. This book would be about those places and the campaigns that center them, be it a single treasure room, a haunted house, a megadungeon, or an entire city or even kingdom. Roughly 1/2 to 2/3 of the book would be dedicated to an "encounter codex", 1 page single room or small dungeon maps that are reused several times for a mix of encounter types each (social, combat, puzzle/investigation, even some where you are the owner and defender). The encounter descriptions should be no more than 1 page, including any new stat blocks needed, and each map should also contain at least 1 character option (feat, archetype, treasure, etc.). Ideally, these maps would be a mix of new and currently digitalized flip mats, though they need not be limited to Pathfinder mats.
Starting to wonder about the logistics of doing this myself, as this is a low probability guess, but something I would particularly enjoy having.
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It'll be an eastern themed book. Not sure of the title.
Samurai - WIS based class that has proficiency with martial and advanced weapons. Uses abilities as "reads" that gives insight into their opponents and allows them to make attacks that deal extra precision damage while making perception checks. Can ignore concealed/hidden conditions because of prediction and reads.
Can choose subclasses to focus on archery, spears, or swords.
Shinobi- Proficient with specific weapons that have the Shinobi trait, Is about having specific ninja tools. The tools themselves are feats/features and the shinobi makes a few per day.
Could also be a rogue subclass but could have enough specific flavor to be its own thing.
Sage- A mystical spontaneous caster (4 slot progression similar to summoner or magus) that uses meditation and calmness to channel inner power. Could potentially be a monk subclass. High emphasis on focus spells, refocusing in battle through various meditation styles. Always of sound mind. Maybe has specific abilities to help allies remain calm and give bonuses to emotional effects. Could also have stances. I think a stance based spellcaster could be very interesting.
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Ultimate Weirdness!
I want a class that focuses on a (renamed) version of the 1e "primal magic event" (obviously we can't call it that since primal means something different now), and has somewhat random (but potent) magical abilities, but not spells- let me roll on tables. Like "Maelstrom channeler" or something like that.
Then a psychometabolism specialist, where you're able (at great stress to your body) warp your being through sheer force of will, with a burn-like mechanic that you fleshwarp yourself, even changing shape eventually.
Then the spontaneous primal caster, with a strong tie-in to the first world.
Golem crafter/controller (athough that can be emulated by summoner i guess
Even if the summoner is the main way to pull this off, I wouldn't mind seeing wizard, witch, and alchemist subclasses for this as well. Possibly going as far as making it equivalent to an AC in power, letting us make use of the various AC archetypes for this golem.
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Golem crafter/controller (athough that can be emulated by summoner i guessEven if the summoner is the main way to pull this off, I wouldn't mind seeing wizard, witch, and alchemist subclasses for this as well. Possibly going as far as making it equivalent to an AC in power, letting us make use of the various AC archetypes for this golem.
I had toyed around a bit with making an Artificer class a while back, and one of the subclasses was a golem crafter. It was basically what you said, you get an animal companion with the construct trait, and I had also made a humanoid "animal companion" for if you wanted a humanoid golem.
In my first post, I mentioned how I wanted to make the Inventor a primal partial caster, but couldn't make it fit the theme. One way to do that would be to give them a golem companion, and a 1 action focus cantrip called "Life-like" that removes the normal immunities of a construct for 1 round, but allows them to be healed and targeted by spells that would normally only affect plants or animals, in addition to counting as "Command".
Basically, a Command+.
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Armory
A book focused on expanding on equipment options and giving more ways to interact with said equipment. Bringing back the return of beloved equipment tricks, expanding on golem grafting, filling out the ranks of advanced and uncommon weaponry, and giving classes like the Monk more abilities that interact with those weapons. Archetypes include the returning favorites Gunslinger and Black Blade.
My class choices are pretty much the same as the first post, though this book is more widely applied to expanding on equipment options rather than technological levels. There is definitely a lot of room in the new weapon trait system for expansions, as well as a general lack of advanced weapons.
For the Drifter, I have a different take on how the class should go. Grit, as a named mechanic and thematic element, implies pushing limits and taking risks. Contrasting the swashbuckler, I would see grit as a limited pool (perhaps even an always on state) that allows you to put extra risk on your abilities to push the limits. Taking Yojimbo and The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly as major inspirations, our protagonists are constantly gambling with their own lives and barely scraping by. I think it could be a really interest area of game design to explore.
For the Drifter, I have a different take on how the class should go. Grit, as a named mechanic and thematic element, implies pushing limits and taking risks. Contrasting the swashbuckler, I would see grit as a limited pool (perhaps even an always on state) that allows you to put extra risk on your abilities to push the limits. Taking Yojimbo and The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly as major inspirations, our protagonists are constantly gambling with their own lives and barely scraping by. I think it could be a really interest area of game design to explore.
Care to to expand on this part? How would they put themselves at higher risk, and what could be the potential reward?
No need to worry about it being a serious or balanced suggestion; I'm just curious as to what you mean.
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Golem crafter/controller (athough that can be emulated by summoner i guessEven if the summoner is the main way to pull this off, I wouldn't mind seeing wizard, witch, and alchemist subclasses for this as well. Possibly going as far as making it equivalent to an AC in power, letting us make use of the various AC archetypes for this golem.
Maybe a Wizard Thesis that gives you an animal companion from the animal companion list, but it is with the Construct Trait instead of the Animal Trait?
That was kind of what I was thinking, yes. I believe there was a wizard archetype along those lines in PF1.
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For the Drifter, I have a different take on how the class should go. Grit, as a named mechanic and thematic element, implies pushing limits and taking risks. Contrasting the swashbuckler, I would see grit as a limited pool (perhaps even an always on state) that allows you to put extra risk on your abilities to push the limits. Taking Yojimbo and The Good, The Bad, and the Ugly as major inspirations, our protagonists are constantly gambling with their own lives and barely scraping by. I think it could be a really interest area of game design to explore.Care to to expand on this part? How would they put themselves at higher risk, and what could be the potential reward?
No need to worry about it being a serious or balanced suggestion; I'm just curious as to what you mean.
For something simple, I can imagine making a strike that will deal extra damage but if it fails it leaves you open (flat footed?). You could have maneuvers such as throwing melee weapons with a self explanatory downside. On the more brutal side, you could let yourself take a hit for a guaranteed retaliation.
Honestly, I'd have faith in Paizo to be a bit more inspired, but that is the general vibe.
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Maybe a Wizard Thesis that gives you an animal companion from the animal companion list, but it is with the Construct Trait instead of the Animal Trait?Golem crafter/controller (athough that can be emulated by summoner i guessEven if the summoner is the main way to pull this off, I wouldn't mind seeing wizard, witch, and alchemist subclasses for this as well. Possibly going as far as making it equivalent to an AC in power, letting us make use of the various AC archetypes for this golem.
This is a really cool idea. Especially if there was a similar thesis with an Undead Trait. Hope they expand on Thesis options in future books. Would be cool if they supported the various schools of magic somehow
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Art of War
Gunslinger - Grit is a state like Panache
Some form of single weapon specialist gaining a +1 to hit with their focus weapon so that they're ahead of every other martial but the fighter who they're half a step behind. They also get crit specialization earlier than any other class.
Some form a Tactician. Reintroduces Teamwork feats but only they need them, grant tactical state bonuses to allies.Weapon Specialty Archetypes
Siege Engineer ArchetypeMass combat rules
Siege Engine RulesThe return of the Troop monster type
Troops have been confirmed to be returning in Bestiary 3
Some form a Tactician. Reintroduces Teamwork feats but only they need them, grant tactical state bonuses to allies.
One of my big "wants" for the summoner class is for them to have a bunch of Tandem feats, or feats that let you spend an action and the other person also gets an action. It works for the summoner because they share actions with their eidolon, but I'm curious if something like that can be created for players and NPCs that don't share a single action pool.
There was a 4e Warlord ability that the playtester called "Feather Me Yon Oaf" where the warlord could spend an action and her entire party would be able to make an attack. Bring me something like that (at high level for that particular example, but you get the point).
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Yes, I desperately want a class that (metaphorically) allows you to use another player character as a weapon.
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Yes, I desperately want a class that (metaphorically) allows you to use another player character as a weapon.
Or literally. With the right headgear, Halflings can be quite aerodynamic. :)
Seriously though, a class able to grant additional actions (highly specific actions, to avoid potential cheese with some class that has a single action ability that would be abusive if usable too much in succession), would be fun. The Cavalier (or a Battle Herald sort of Bard) seems the closest, thematically, PF got to such a class previously, IMO, although I don't recall it ever exploring that leadership / strategic / mass combat role.
Yes, I desperately want a class that (metaphorically) allows you to use another player character as a weapon.Or literally. With the right headgear, Halflings can be quite aerodynamic. :)
I feel like goblins would make the best thrown weapon, especially a torch goblin that set themselves on fire first.
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To be honest, I'd be far more excited for a GMG 2, wihout much playerside stuff. The first one was amazing, but there's so much moe ground a second one could cover I think. Things like spell design, while there are some obvious patterns, are yet to have official guidelines. Also, some subsystems and variant rules would be cool, npcs, etc.. I'd also welcome some more stuff on relics. If that were rounded off with some more GMing advice in chapter one, I would be right on board.
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I definitely could see something tied to technology and guns.
Really hoping that they do more than the drifter concept for firearms and tech though. What might boil down to a weird ranger/swashbuckler with weird crossbows doesn't feel like nearly enough. I'm hoping that tinkering/inventing and creation of mechanical arms and armor might play a much bigger role, with the option of a drifter subclass for those who want to focus in on that vibe.
I guess that's not really in keeping with my general preference for class design, though. I've come to preferring more specifics and less "let's cover all possible class concepts" so maybe the drifter, if guns are interesting enough and they find a more engaging mechanic than grit, would work best. Who knows!
I think the next class dump will lean more martial, which is why I think a techish book makes sense. That said, I'd really love to see more spirit/occult sorts of things. Classes that lean more into the supernatural.