I like it around here right now...


Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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It’s a little quieter, with considered, measured discussion around a system we love and aren’t giving up on yet. Sure - we know that PF1 has its failings. But it’s what we’ve invested so much time, energy and cash into. And I like this community as it is now: a little less noise than before. And I intend to share, borrow and steal from all of you for the indefinite future. Thanks


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Agreed.

I have set my flag in PF1, and here I intend to stay.


3 people marked this as a favorite.

I'm staying with PF1 myself.

It's my fate as explained by one of Pharasma's psychopomp's named Cerity.


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Hear, hear!


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SunKing wrote:
It’s a little quieter, with considered, measured discussion around a system we love and aren’t giving up on yet. Sure - we know that PF1 has its failings. But it’s what we’ve invested so much time, energy and cash into. And I like this community as it is now: a little less noise than before. And I intend to share, borrow and steal from all of you for the indefinite future. Thanks

Plus the longer it goes on the more likely stuff gets re-looked at and community based modifications to the system will begin taking over


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A role-playing game community can survive long after the publisher drops it. There are still boards where you can find gamers playing & discussing games most of you won't have heard of (Alternity anyone?)

But yeah, it's quieter here. It'll be interesting to see whether Corefinder reinvigorates it or simply splits the fan base (or whether it disappears without trace of course.)


You think Altedrnity....I think Champions in the infancy of the internet era... 10 years of no products or some such and still a insane fan base at the time...


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It's nicer not being verbally abused by gatekeepers.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It's nicer not being verbally abused by gatekeepers.

It does seem more like home around here now that PF2 has taken the attention of the keyboard lawyer guild. Sure, there are still heartfelt disagreements to be had, but it's like sibling rivalry... same familiar people, same familiar arguments, it's a consistent and comfortable environment where we all know where everyone stands on a lot of topics.


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VoodistMonk wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:
It's nicer not being verbally abused by gatekeepers.
It does seem more like home around here now that PF2 has taken the attention of the keyboard lawyer guild. Sure, there are still heartfelt disagreements to be had, but it's like sibling rivalry... same familiar people, same familiar arguments, it's a consistent and comfortable environment where we all know where everyone stands on a lot of topics.

You know - I hadn’t thought about this aspect so specifically. But yes - I don’t have the same terror of asking a ‘stupid’ question quite as much as I may have had before...

Jon Brazer Enterprises

3 people marked this as a favorite.

Same here.


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Wow.

So it's not just me.

I hope the Paizo moderators are taking notice.

Honestly, this is part of the reason why I haven't invested any money in 2E products. I might be the only whose money is being blocked from reaching Paizo's hands by the bullying of your gatekeeper-players and GMs.


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Yeah, and the brigade of PF2 fans spending their time coming down here to tell us how wrong we are appear to have got bored too. Kind of got tiring seeing the same faces telling us "you just don't understand it" or "you have to try it" while ignoring any real-life experiences. Some people can't cope with other people liking different things.

I say... more power to those who like PF2. Best wishes. Just not the game for my groups.


2 people marked this as a favorite.

I also enjoy how it has mellowed out a bit, though at times I do miss some of the more lively exchanges.

Don't lose any hope for this community. Even now, AD&D 2E is seeing a resurgence with the online community.


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Y'know it's weird. When PF 1e first came out I was playing 3x D&D and folks in chats around that game were gruff and exclusive.

When I came to PF 1e I found SOME of that, but less than with WOTC folks. I stuck with PF 1e at first b/c of excellent service from Paizo and an inclusive group here on the boards.

When 4e hit, I tried going back to the D&D diehards online. Again, I felt bullied. Now that I'm playing 5e I've tried reaching out and while I haven't felt EXCLUDED, every time I bring up that I'm coming from PF 1e I get the internet equivalent of an eyeroll.

I've always felt included here on the Paizo boards. I've been bullied and picked on sure, but not nearly as much as on other gaming boards. The only other crowd I find is initially this nice are some forums to do with Minecraft, but I thought that's just cuz a lot of little kids play the game.

If the few angry folks still playing PF are on to the 2e boards, I'm fine with that. I don't know about all of you, but especially over the past 8 months I've been MORE than a little stressed out. It's nice to have a calm, safe space where I can work on games without fear of some kind of attack for not doing it the right way or whatever.


While I obviously can't speak to how this place was a few years ago, I do want to say that the current vibe of the place had a lot to do with why I felt comfortable joining to seek advice instead of like patching something together on my own.

So thanks everyone who contribute to that ^^

Grand Lodge

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Good to hear it!


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This is literally the first board/thread/forum/chat site I've ever gotten involved with. I'm "middle aged" to gaming, but an infant to any type of social media. I've strongly disagreed with some, and heartily cheered others on here, but I also appreciate this community. If it's not too "stupid" of a question, could anyone attempt to clarify what you mean by "gate keepers". I'm sure there are likely several definitions.


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Gate keepers - those who try to keep out those they find unworthy. Variants include gatekeepers who act to stop others with insufficient knowledge of their hobby commenting (by their standards), those who keep out people with politics they find aggravating (not just preventing discussion of politics; see rpg.net), and those who try to keep their vision of their hobby pure by suppressing others.


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Gatekeepers are those who take personal responsibility for regulating group membership. In some cases it's warranted, it can be hard to have a conversation about some topics if all participants aren't on the same level of experience; a beginner student can bog down advanced student's conversation if they need to address the beginner constantly. Likewise, it would be best to limit access to a group attempting to create a body of discourse meant to inform others to only those who reliably produce accurate information.

The term is usually reserved for those who artificially raise the bar for participation in a group. Sometimes this involves purity test, allegiance tests, excessive use of exclusive language, requirements to keep things beginner friendly, requirements that have nothing to do with the group's activities, and so on.

If you were running a forum for professional body builders, and you restricted the forum to only those who competed as professional body builders, that's legitimate gatekeeping. If, on the other hand, you participated in a forum for hunting water fowl but also made sure all participants where professional body builders, that would be artificial.

Silver Crusade

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Gatekeepers are people who either actively or passively limit who can participate in a conversation.

The opposite of gatekeepers are bridge builders who serve to connect different groups of people. Some bridge builders do it naturally because of their enthusiasm over a topic, others because they want to share the value in what they do with others.


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I am also glad the climate here is more serene and less antagonistic.

What I wish is that discussions about Golarion, which are relevant to both editions, yet not about a specific published campaign, had a place outside of General Discussion on either PF1 or PF2 fora.
I stay away from those on the PF2 sections for the reasons that have been mentionned above.


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Agenor, you are free to start a thread here to do just that. All the trolls are busy arguing about PF2. It's OK. ;)


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PFRPGrognard wrote:
Agenor, you are free to start a thread here to do just that. All the trolls are busy arguing about PF2. It's OK. ;)

(Dumb sounding brute voice)

What you got against trolls, we be humanoids too...(smash with club)


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After 35 years of gaming and spending tons of money on new editions and their material, just before PF2e hit the shelves, my group, most of us anyway, decided we'd draw our line in the sand with PF1e. I don't know if PF2e is superior or inferior and it's the same with D&D5e. They might be amazing games, and I hope for their fans that they are. Two of my players live two and a half hours from me and on the weekends we don't gather they play in PF2e and 5e games at their gaming club and they enjoy them.

The rest of us have hit the grognard stage of gaming growth, I guess. We really enjoy PF1e for its creative flexibility and the wealth of material that became available. Between that and the ability to fairly easily re-engineer D&D3.5 to it we really don't have any need to invest in something new. This is the game that we'll (hopefully a ways down the road) eventually "retire" with.


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I still play 5e... it's like the mobile phone version... there's like 70 feats to choose from and abilities cap at 20. Simple, but still fun.

But PF1 is my what I really love.


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:

After 35 years of gaming and spending tons of money on new editions and their material, just before PF2e hit the shelves, my group, most of us anyway, decided we'd draw our line in the sand with PF1e. I don't know if PF2e is superior or inferior and it's the same with D&D5e. They might be amazing games, and I hope for their fans that they are. Two of my players live two and a half hours from me and on the weekends we don't gather they play in PF2e and 5e games at their gaming club and they enjoy them.

The rest of us have hit the grognard stage of gaming growth, I guess. We really enjoy PF1e for its creative flexibility and the wealth of material that became available. Between that and the ability to fairly easily re-engineer D&D3.5 to it we really don't have any need to invest in something new. This is the game that we'll (hopefully a ways down the road) eventually "retire" with.

I own and have played and tooled around with PF2. It may be the case it’s an objectively better game. But I just don’t have the ‘juice’ left in me to learn it. It’s a simple cost/benefit analysis on my part.

I have to admit that the continued use of PF1 by the boys of the ‘Glass Canon’ network has further maintained my interest...


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When dealing with a hobby pursued by millions, who all have their different experiences, preferences, and reasons to play, can any one system or game be truly, universally, "objectively" better? . . . . Just wondering.


4 people marked this as a favorite.

Whatever game I, personally, happen to prefer is definitely the best.


Ahhhhh


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A better position than restarting an Edition War, certainly.


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*Paints torso with bullseye, removes all armor, walks in front of firing squad*

I actually liked 4th Edition (not my favorite though) . . . . . let the volley commence.

Grand Lodge

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The best game system is the one you are playing with friends.


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Earthdawn 4th edition is an excellent game, I agree.

I've no idea why they never made a 4th edition for D&D. Weird, huh?

Jon Brazer Enterprises

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Sysryke wrote:
I actually liked 4th Edition (not my favorite though) . . . . . let the volley commence.

We all like something less than popular.

Btw, if you haven't already, check out 13th Age. It's 4e as some of the designers intended.

Disclaimer: my company also makes 13th Age products.


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Sysryke wrote:
When dealing with a hobby pursued by millions, who all have their different experiences, preferences, and reasons to play, can any one system or game be truly, universally, "objectively" better? . . . . Just wondering.

I think of it as a right-tool-for-the-job kind of thing.


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:
Sysryke wrote:
When dealing with a hobby pursued by millions, who all have their different experiences, preferences, and reasons to play, can any one system or game be truly, universally, "objectively" better? . . . . Just wondering.
I think of it as a right-tool-for-the-job kind of thing.

For sure.

PF1 being kind of locked in stone is interesting... and for whatever reason I feel like I can actually explore every corner now that it stopped growing. I am intrigued. Also, totally in love with all the choices and possible combinations PF1 has for gestalt. It haa become the very definition of high-fantasy gaming for me.

Me friends and I had played some 5e before I kinda forced PF1 on everyone by GM'ing Kingmaker. 5e still has its place for me and my friends. Its simplicity is its own elegance, and my friend is starting a 5e campaign to hold us over while I put together my gestalt Skulls and Shackles campaign. Like a calm before the storm. Lol.

Even for the 5e campaign, I am kinda stuck in PF1 character creation mode... made a Hill Dwarf Echo Knight Fighter-5/Hexblade Warlock-X crossbow expert... gotta multiclass, right? In a different PbP 5e campaign I am part of on a paintball forum, I am a Half-Elf Ranger-5/Sorcerer-X archer/TWF switch-hitter.

So I still obviously dabble in other games, but PF1 is the one for me. It allows me the freedom to run the caliber of game I want to run. 5e is something my friend likes specifically for its simplicity. Different tools for different jobs, neither is necessarily superior or inferior. We all have fun playing both.


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Sysryke wrote:
When dealing with a hobby pursued by millions, who all have their different experiences, preferences, and reasons to play, can any one system or game be truly, universally, "objectively" better? . . . . Just wondering.

You’re right: fun is fun. You can’t argue with subjective experience. But I suppose one can also state that some games make more sense, are more logical, more elegant, in a sort of ‘measurable’ way. I don’t actually know if that’s the case with PF2 or not. It may be.

Some rules and systems make more or less sense than others. Like, THAC0 was objectively logically indefensible. However, it’s completely subjectively defensible, if that’s your cup of tea, ‘cause the only goal is fun.

I’ll agree with you, that you cannot, of course, measure fun...


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Or, ANY game is objectively better than the D&D clone I came up with in the 6th grade...


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DungeonmasterCal wrote:
After 35 years of gaming and spending tons of money on new editions and their material, just before PF2e hit the shelves, my group, most of us anyway, decided we'd draw our line in the sand with PF1e.

Same. We were on 3.0/3.5 for something like 17 years and finally moved to PF1 because the Adventure-a-Week series we were campaigning in stopped being 3.5 part-way through and was just available on FantasyGrounds for Pathfinder. So we spent the $$ to move to PF1...and of course, PF2 came out something like 12 months later.

I played my first D&D game in 1980 (if my math is right) and don't have it in me to move to another version after we as a group committed to PF1. And, quite frankly, I have enough material now to run PF1 campaigns until I am permanently retired. ;-)


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Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.


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I stuck with 1e because I bought almost the whole damn thing and didnt need another way to kill an orc to cost me this much money.


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I've stuck with P1 just cause it's by far my favorite system. It's not nearly as clunky as 3.5 and it feels good to play. My group was initially excited for P2 but the playtest left a real bad taste in our mouth and when the actual game came out we read the rules and decided that while it had some good ideas it left behind what felt like pathfidner and for us. So with P1 we stayed


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I have to thank D&D 4e in a big way for introducing me to Pathfinder 1e. When Wizards dropped 3.5e and moved to 4e, I likewise dropped them and shifted gears to Paizo that kept the spirit of that system alive. Never regretted that decision. Not even D&D 5e peeked my interest in returning to Wizards content, though Baldur's Gate 3 is keying me up to learn the system a bit more from a PC gaming perspective.

I play PF2e and AD&D 2e on a regular basis, as well as DM a PF1e on a weekly basis, and play in a PF1e game on a biweekly basis. I even touch on random other systems when we are short a few players for the regular game. Always come back to PF1e though.


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Pathfinder Rulebook Subscriber

I've hyperfixated on PF2 super hard for almost the entirety of its life so far, but I've only actually played in one campaign, and it was a play-by-post with strangers, one of whom turned out be a notably rude and impatient GM. (I no longer participate, assuming it's still even running.) Meanwhile I'm in two PF1 campaigns with a small, super comfy group of friends, and another group that mostly runs 5E will hopefully see the return of its PF1 campaign someday as well. I'd like to run PF2 for friends when I have a better handle on school and life (to that end I need to re-block Paizo, turn my phone off and get back to work after this post :v ), and it helps that it seems a lot friendlier to GM. But the systems are good at different things. The small, comfy group has a GM who does a wonderful job of smoothing over the rough parts of PF1, and I absolutely love the parties we've made for those campaigns. 'v'

As for the state of this forum, that's to be expected. Winds of change blow and a lot of the more combative, passionate or rude people go with them, one way or another. I hope the calm lasts, though the PF1 things I obsess over (mostly regarding character options I'm considering) aren't discussed here or in Advice that often, so I'll probably only post infrequently. ~w~


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SunKing wrote:
It’s a little quieter, with considered, measured discussion around a system we love and aren’t giving up on yet. Sure - we know that PF1 has its failings. But it’s what we’ve invested so much time, energy and cash into. And I like this community as it is now: a little less noise than before. And I intend to share, borrow and steal from all of you for the indefinite future. Thanks

I agree. I started reading the forums when my son was born and I needed a way to get through the sleepless nights caused by his acid reflux. I really enjoyed the discussions and felt immersed in the community.

Then for some reason, the vibe in the forums seemed to change. So many of the threads felt very negative. Or maybe it was always that way and I was too sleep-deprived to notice. Whatever the case, I became increasingly turned off and eventually stopped paying attention.

I’ve recently come back because my son is old enough to join the Pathfinder ranks and I’ve needed some rules explanations and advice to help me as a new GM. I’ve read multiple threads/posts mentioning the fact that 1E is what it is now and won’t be changing or expanding, and that we can now spend our time exploring it to its fullest. This has reinvigorated my interest in reading and actively posting in the forums. And I’m liking the more relaxed atmosphere I’ve experienced.


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I absolutely agree, even if I've only actually joined the forums recently. I used to browse pretty frequently when I was younger, but never got involved because I didn't feel like it was a good place for younger, casual players (and I tend to be super awkward online anyway). Life got hectic and I spotted playing for a while as well, around the same time second edition came out. So I stopped reading the forums too.

Recently I've finally gotten the chance to start playing again and ended up looking through the forums again. It was nice to see a quieter, calmer community, and I actually felt welcome to ask questions, even though I have a lot less experience and system mastery than most people here. It felt worthwhile to ask, and maybe contribute where I can.

Honestly I hope that the community continues to look like this and keeps first edition alive. I've now introduced a few sets of friends to the game, and I would much rather say that this is the kind of community available to them.


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I have stuck with Pathfinder 1e because...

-I have invested so much money and time in it.
-It has so many options.
-I like the system.
-I am used to the rules.
-I like how (most of)the books are organized.
-I have fun playing it.
-It has a lot of flavor and inspires my imagination.
-It has a lot of pre-made adventures(APs and modules).
-I like the art(mostly).

Of course I have some issues with it but nothing(and mo one) is perfect.


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Honestly, I miss the forums back in the old days. So much interesting back and forth. Pathfinder had it's players pretty involved in how the game was developing for quite a long time. People got pretty invested so when Paizo began to back away from the feedback they were getting some folks didn't like that since it was pretty different from how things got started. Then some questionable quality/editing issues began to crop up and the good faith they had built up began to sour. Couple that with PFS>Home Game balancing and bans of several prominent community members...

But more than anything it's simply that the game is done now. Aside from 3pp content, the end answer you're going to get on the forums from now on for ambiguous questions is "Here's how I run it, but it's up to you because there won't be an official definitive answer."


Yeah Scavion, so true, I do remember those days....the good times and the bad.

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