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Pathfinder First Edition General Discussion

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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Anguish wrote:

Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.

May I ask if you use much 3PP? (Or more broadly actually, is a stream of new material coming out important to you?)

My choice would have been PF1, except that I need fresh, monthly content or I lose interest in a system.


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Scavion wrote:

Honestly, I miss the forums back in the old days. So much interesting back and forth. Pathfinder had it's players pretty involved in how the game was developing for quite a long time. People got pretty invested so when Paizo began to back away from the feedback they were getting some folks didn't like that since it was pretty different from how things got started. Then some questionable quality/editing issues began to crop up and the good faith they had built up began to sour. Couple that with PFS>Home Game balancing and bans of several prominent community members...

But more than anything it's simply that the game is done now. Aside from 3pp content, the end answer you're going to get on the forums from now on for ambiguous questions is "Here's how I run it, but it's up to you because there won't be an official definitive answer."

Fair point. I do remember the crackling energy of the forums back then. And it was inspiring. But it was also a little crazy. I wouldn’t have the energy to participate in something like that again, though. I like the ‘closing time Tuesday night bar crowd’ vibe around here now...


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Scavion wrote:

Honestly, I miss the forums back in the old days. So much interesting back and forth. Pathfinder had it's players pretty involved in how the game was developing for quite a long time. People got pretty invested so when Paizo began to back away from the feedback they were getting some folks didn't like that since it was pretty different from how things got started. Then some questionable quality/editing issues began to crop up and the good faith they had built up began to sour. Couple that with PFS>Home Game balancing and bans of several prominent community members...

But more than anything it's simply that the game is done now. Aside from 3pp content, the end answer you're going to get on the forums from now on for ambiguous questions is "Here's how I run it, but it's up to you because there won't be an official definitive answer."

I do appreciate the dropoff of all the negative back and forth of 1E and 2E. Too much noise and it cluttered up threads I wanted to read and keep track off.

I do miss the real back and forth on developing 1E.

I started playing D&D in the late 70's so I have seen every iteration of D&D and PF. Was not a fan of 4E and didn't bother to even try it and like many decided on PF1E as my home. Played a lot of D&D 2E and 3E but the spinoff of PF1E took me a while to get my head around but once I finally moved towards it I have to say I love the system. I haven't looked back since and frankly I don't see a move to PF2E anytime soon if ever. I do hope that PF realizes there is a market place for 1E products. They have developed a great base even if it does have a few wrinkles and cracks in it. As a DM I don't mind fixing the ones I don't like and modifiying things for the games I run.


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Steve Geddes wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.

May I ask if you use much 3PP? (Or more broadly actually, is a stream of new material coming out important to you?)

My choice would have been PF1, except that I need fresh, monthly content or I lose interest in a system.

There is a lot of quality 3PP products for PF1E. Some of it you have to modify to your needs but honestly, there are some outstanding 3PP adventures.


SunKing wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Honestly, I miss the forums back in the old days. So much interesting back and forth. Pathfinder had it's players pretty involved in how the game was developing for quite a long time. People got pretty invested so when Paizo began to back away from the feedback they were getting some folks didn't like that since it was pretty different from how things got started. Then some questionable quality/editing issues began to crop up and the good faith they had built up began to sour. Couple that with PFS>Home Game balancing and bans of several prominent community members...

But more than anything it's simply that the game is done now. Aside from 3pp content, the end answer you're going to get on the forums from now on for ambiguous questions is "Here's how I run it, but it's up to you because there won't be an official definitive answer."

Fair point. I do remember the crackling energy of the forums back then. And it was inspiring. But it was also a little crazy. I wouldn’t have the energy to participate in something like that again, though. I like the ‘closing time Tuesday night bar crowd’ vibe around here now...

I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams. One time, somebody started a thread just to verbally abuse me, and the moderators seemed blind to most of it. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the mods. Maybe there was too much traffic to police effectively. And I can point to several instances where they changed the rules just for me, almost always to shut down character ideas of mine, but still, they were clearly paying attention.


Scott Wilhelm wrote:
SunKing wrote:
Scavion wrote:

Honestly, I miss the forums back in the old days. So much interesting back and forth. Pathfinder had it's players pretty involved in how the game was developing for quite a long time. People got pretty invested so when Paizo began to back away from the feedback they were getting some folks didn't like that since it was pretty different from how things got started. Then some questionable quality/editing issues began to crop up and the good faith they had built up began to sour. Couple that with PFS>Home Game balancing and bans of several prominent community members...

But more than anything it's simply that the game is done now. Aside from 3pp content, the end answer you're going to get on the forums from now on for ambiguous questions is "Here's how I run it, but it's up to you because there won't be an official definitive answer."

Fair point. I do remember the crackling energy of the forums back then. And it was inspiring. But it was also a little crazy. I wouldn’t have the energy to participate in something like that again, though. I like the ‘closing time Tuesday night bar crowd’ vibe around here now...
I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams. One time, somebody started a thread just to verbally abuse me, and the moderators seemed blind to most of it. Perhaps I'm being unfair to the mods. Maybe there was too much traffic to police effectively. And I can point to several instances where they changed the rules just for me, almost always to shut down character ideas of mine, but still, they were clearly paying attention.

That’s horrible. That shouldn’t happen. Nerd-rage run amuck...


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Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams.

I really, really hope you mean 'pedantry'.


Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams.

I really, really hope you mean 'pedantry'.

Was wondering that myself...


SunKing wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams.

I really, really hope you mean 'pedantry'.
Was wondering that myself...

Yeah, I did a double take when I read that. Cause damn... I'd be offended too.


Steve Geddes wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.

May I ask if you use much 3PP? (Or more broadly actually, is a stream of new material coming out important to you?)

My choice would have been PF1, except that I need fresh, monthly content or I lose interest in a system.

I buy lots of 3PP. The larger a product is, the more likely it is I'll buy it.

Short term we don't need new material, but long term we do. Every time we finish an AP, by definition we're starting one we want to play less than the last. Crunch-wise there's a lot we haven't explored too, but new goodies are always enjoyed.

I just backed Legendary Games' Patreon because I'm liking what I'm seeing with Corefinder. Thinking there's a future for us there. You might want to hunt down the Discord* and just hang out in some of the discussions. Another level head can't hurt.

*No money/subscription involved. Discord is just a free chat system. I only mentioned the Patreon to indicate my level of interest.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
ALLENDM wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.

May I ask if you use much 3PP? (Or more broadly actually, is a stream of new material coming out important to you?)

My choice would have been PF1, except that I need fresh, monthly content or I lose interest in a system.

There is a lot of quality 3PP products for PF1E. Some of it you have to modify to your needs but honestly, there are some outstanding 3PP adventures.

Yeah, I've bought stacks over the years. The output has (understandably) slowed down somewhat.


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Pathfinder Maps, Starfinder Maps Subscriber
Anguish wrote:
Steve Geddes wrote:
Anguish wrote:

Since we're discussing why we've stuck with PF1...

It seems to come down to breadth-of-choice. Some of our group members have played a bunch of 5e with others and were underwhelmed by lack of player choices, and moved to PF1. Another subset of us tried a couple months (several adventures' worth) of PF2 and while the game was mechanically playable, the lack of content made the experiment fail. The published APs didn't interest any of us, and we picked through Society and the one published module, then hit a wall of "what next"? The answer was: well, back to PF1.

So I'd conclude that for us, availability of choice is the primary drawing factor for PF1.

May I ask if you use much 3PP? (Or more broadly actually, is a stream of new material coming out important to you?)

My choice would have been PF1, except that I need fresh, monthly content or I lose interest in a system.

I buy lots of 3PP. The larger a product is, the more likely it is I'll buy it.

Short term we don't need new material, but long term we do. Every time we finish an AP, by definition we're starting one we want to play less than the last. Crunch-wise there's a lot we haven't explored too, but new goodies are always enjoyed.

I just backed Legendary Games' Patreon because I'm liking what I'm seeing with Corefinder. Thinking there's a future for us there. You might want to hunt down the Discord* and just hang out in some of the discussions. Another level head can't hurt.

*No money/subscription involved. Discord is just a free chat system. I only mentioned the Patreon to indicate my level of interest.

Legendary Games are always high quality. Fingers crossed there is sufficient demand to make it commercially viable to continue PF1 innovation.


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SunKing wrote:
Bjørn Røyrvik wrote:
Scott Wilhelm wrote:

I usually think of energetic as being better, but people used to accuse me of pederasty, and call for the crushing of my dreams.

I really, really hope you mean 'pedantry'.
Was wondering that myself...

Well, that was hyperbole. They were accusing me of corrupting the youth.


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Anguish wrote:

Yeah, and the brigade of PF2 fans spending their time coming down here to tell us how wrong we are appear to have got bored too. Kind of got tiring seeing the same faces telling us "you just don't understand it" or "you have to try it" while ignoring any real-life experiences. Some people can't cope with other people liking different things.

I say... more power to those who like PF2. Best wishes. Just not the game for my groups.

I spotted this thread while scrolling down from the Adventure Path subforums and wanted to say hello. My latest campaign is PF2 and I haven't posted in the PF1 forums in a while.

I participated in the PF2 playtest and wanted to follow that up by running a PF2 campaign once the PF2 Core Rulebook was published. I decided to adapt the PF1 Ironfang Invasion adventure path to the PF2 rules rather than try a PF2 adventure path. Paizo published years of PF1 material and I don't want to abandon it.

Pathfinder 1st Edition is more polished and complete than Pathfinder 2nd Edition. The basic rules of PF2 are easier to explain to new players than the same rules in PF1, but then PF2 layers on complexity in the details. One of my players argues that PF2 is more complicated than PF1. Paizo is busy porting PF1 class and setting material to PF2. Its relentless releases can be intimidating. Sticking to PF1 is a solid choice.


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After PF2 hit, we tried to play is, but things just felt off. I was also not a fan of all the heritage feats and how they work.

And I still don't understand how elves break the sound barrier, but dwarves move slower than the small races. Makes no sense to me.

Anyhow. Our group has been playing other systems for a while, but I want to get them to seriously consider more PF1 games. It's the system I really enjoyed theory crafting in and there are still a lot of builds left for me to try.

I also don't visit these boards nearly as often as I used to, but I like coming by when I can :)

Grand Lodge

5ft difference is breaking the sound barrier?


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TriOmegaZero wrote:
5ft difference is breaking the sound barrier?

Hahaha, not entirely, but they have ways of improving it further via heritage feats etc...

The newer movement values just feel off to me. Along with several other heritage mechanics.

But yeah, this is more a thread about how PF1 is still an active healthy community. :)


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Speaking of 3PP, there is a ton of great content still coming out. FGG/Necromancer releases a module in 5e/PF/SW almost every month via Indiegogo. They also continue to offer PF options for their larger campaigns on Kickstarter, such as the recent Tehuatl sourcebook, which I plan to use for building Arcadia in my ongoing PF game.

Several of my games were disrupted due to the pandemic, but I've started a new PF game on Roll20 using AAW Games' Rise of the Drow adventure path. It's pretty much the adventure fighting drow that everyone expected from Second Darkness.

If anyone is interested in exploring 3PP, there are healthy discord channels for the official AAW Games and Frog God Games. There is a dedicated Rise of the Drow channel for GMs that has made it very easy to get advice and feedback from other GMs and sometimes from the actual writers.

I'm loving everything about Pathfinder First Edition, at present.

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero wrote:
5ft difference is breaking the sound barrier?

well... for 1121 ft/s vs. 1126 ft/s, that would be a "yes".

(At 20 °C (68 °F), the speed of sound in air is about 343 metres per second or 1,125 ft/s).

Not sure if we need to bring in African Swallows to check this though...

Grand Lodge

Well, since elves move about 1.5 ft/s I would say we’re pretty safe from that.

The Exchange

TriOmegaZero wrote:
Well, since elves move about 1.5 ft/s I would say we’re pretty safe from that.

well - maybe. I don't know the 2E rules - so I wouldn't know. But heck, the day is young, surely someone will come along with an elf that moves faster...

wait... 1.5 ft/s would be 9 feet per round right? don't elves have a speed faster than that? (I really DON'T know 2E rules so... sorry?)


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I’m going to go the opposite direction and say I hate it.

I pointed out how PF2E plays like D&D4E, the very thing that was so hated, that it made WotC make 3.5E Open Source (or whatever the term was), that allowed Pathfinder to exist in the first place, meaning that PF2E’s existence is a slap to the face to the people that made Paizo successful, and they moderated the post.

I’m sorry, but that is not healthy discussion. And yes, I fully expect them to moderate this post too, which will only prove my point that they aren’t engaging in healthy discussion anymore.

Grand Lodge

Smoke & Mirrors wrote:
TriOmegaZero wrote:
Well, since elves move about 1.5 ft/s I would say we’re pretty safe from that.

well - maybe. I don't know the 2E rules - so I wouldn't know. But heck, the day is young, surely someone will come along with an elf that moves faster...

wait... 1.5 ft/s would be 9 feet per round right? don't elves have a speed faster than that? (I really DON'T know 2E rules so... sorry?)

You’re right, I got the math wrong. 9ft/s.


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When was this mythical golden age when Paizo was mining these boards for content for the games? Are we just talking rules clarifications or did they actually take builds and such and make them into monsters, NPCs and so on? I mean, I remember the superstar contests but I didn't think that's what you were talking about.

Anyway, I don't remember that. I remember a lot of fans having contentious discussions about gray areas of this game. I STILL see that, like the savage maw wand thread going on recently.

I like the happy medium this game system has struck for me and my fellow players. I've tried some story games recently and while a fun distraction, I can't imagine a full campaign in any of them. I also dipped my toes into 5e and that has gone... poorly.

I use 3pp material to bolster my own homebrewed stuff, but I haven't bought any in about a year. I've got multiple APs to get through and lots of supplements. That being said I'm a fan of Frog God Games and should start buying their stuff again, for whenever I can get more new games/campaigns started.

I think FGG is also Necromancer, right? Anyway, I like them and Raging Swan Press has really great supplements.


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I was excited for 2e...
Until I got the playtest book..
It seems like with every single game new editions just 'dumb down' the mechanics/rules/etc.
This includes PC games like WoW and of course other rpgs.

WoW, at least, realized that people enjoyed what it used to be and brought back 'classic'.

I hope that support for 1e never goes away...(though that ship may have sailed)

Silver Crusade

*Thelith wrote:

This includes PC games like WoW and of course other rpgs.

WoW, at least, realized that people enjoyed what it used to be and brought back 'classic'.

You haven’t played any of the later raids or dungeons have you?

The Castle Nathria (the newest raid tier) world first clear took over a week to do.

In Classic, the world first for Naxxrammas (the final raid tier), took only 2 hours.


It would probably make more sense to compare Castle Nathria to raids people hadn't been running for over a decade, with available speed run videos, and 4 months of raiding the prior raid tier. Naxx originally took 90 days, middle of the pack for vanilla WoW. The shortest being Onyxia at 69.

Castle Nathria took 36, falling just short of Magtheridon's 40 days. That's 10 bosses in the time it took to defeat the 2 bosses in Gruul's and
1 in Mag's. That sure sounds streamlined at the very least.

https://www.method.gg/raid-history

That said, time to kill probably isn't the best measure. How severely is the group punished for errors, what's the spread between a good player and a bad player, or a good player and the best player, that sort of thing. Lots of games, for better or for worse, want to narrow the impact of a skill gap. That decision is annoying to those of us who enjoy climbing up skill levels.

Having said all that, pen and paper games aren't really skill based, and having the gap between characters be too broad, without some pay off for lower ability, is just bad design. Pen and paper games that don't utilize alternative pay off options do tend to feel boring though.


Rysky wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

This includes PC games like WoW and of course other rpgs.

WoW, at least, realized that people enjoyed what it used to be and brought back 'classic'.

You haven’t played any of the later raids or dungeons have you?

The Castle Nathria (the newest raid tier) world first clear took over a week to do.

In Classic, the world first for Naxxrammas (the final raid tier), took only 2 hours.

This is generally because of gear bottlenecking and not particularly complexity. Naxxramas was the final raid tier of 6. Raid gear is pretty comparable to one another up to that point being only small number increases. So a raider had 5 other raids to gear up on vs 1. WoW isn't exactly a hard game to play, especially when BfA ripped all the classes down to bare bones. Humorously, if it took more than a week, it sounds like they needed the drops to reset so they could be strong enough to finish.

Compared to, for example, Vanilla Molten Core which took a little over 5 months to defeat.

Grand Lodge

WoW also has a much bigger fan base to justify it.

Silver Crusade

Scavion wrote:
Rysky wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

This includes PC games like WoW and of course other rpgs.

WoW, at least, realized that people enjoyed what it used to be and brought back 'classic'.

You haven’t played any of the later raids or dungeons have you?

The Castle Nathria (the newest raid tier) world first clear took over a week to do.

In Classic, the world first for Naxxrammas (the final raid tier), took only 2 hours.

This is generally because of gear bottlenecking and not particularly complexity. Naxxramas was the final raid tier of 6. Raid gear is pretty comparable to one another up to that point being only small number increases. So a raider had 5 other raids to gear up on vs 1. WoW isn't exactly a hard game to play, especially when BfA ripped all the classes down to bare bones. Humorously, if it took more than a week, it sounds like they needed the drops to reset so they could be strong enough to finish.

Compared to, for example, Vanilla Molten Core which took a little over 5 months to defeat.

My point was that WoW hasn’t been dumbed down, the fights have gotten more complex as time went on. Gear checks have always been in the game, with Classic everything got blown through due to already knowing the fights of course but also knowing where to farm the exact best gear and world buffs and potions and stack them in ways the original devs didn’t foresee.

Though I miss the expansive talent trees on the player side of things.


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Rysky wrote:
Scavion wrote:
Rysky wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

This includes PC games like WoW and of course other rpgs.

WoW, at least, realized that people enjoyed what it used to be and brought back 'classic'.

You haven’t played any of the later raids or dungeons have you?

The Castle Nathria (the newest raid tier) world first clear took over a week to do.

In Classic, the world first for Naxxrammas (the final raid tier), took only 2 hours.

This is generally because of gear bottlenecking and not particularly complexity. Naxxramas was the final raid tier of 6. Raid gear is pretty comparable to one another up to that point being only small number increases. So a raider had 5 other raids to gear up on vs 1. WoW isn't exactly a hard game to play, especially when BfA ripped all the classes down to bare bones. Humorously, if it took more than a week, it sounds like they needed the drops to reset so they could be strong enough to finish.

Compared to, for example, Vanilla Molten Core which took a little over 5 months to defeat.

My point was that WoW hasn’t been dumbed down, the fights have gotten more complex as time went on. Gear checks have always been in the game, with Classic everything got blown through due to already knowing the fights of course but also knowing where to farm the exact best gear and world buffs and potions and stack them in ways the original devs didn’t foresee.

Though I miss the expansive talent trees on the player side of things.

Just because some boss fights are complex doesn't mean the game in general has not been dumbed down and made 'easier'.

Quests showing you EXACTLY where you need to go... talent trees consisting of essentially ONE option per tier (yes I know there are three but one is generally pvp based one is utility and one is raiding, so basically ONE option depending on what you're doing in game)
This is exactly what 2e and 5e did, made the game simpler.. which 'dumbs it down'.
Are there parts that are still hard? Yes.
But the mechanics of the game (not specific fights within the game) are simpler than they once were.

Silver Crusade

There’s 3 picks per talent tier but they’re not split into categories like you claim.

So Quality of Life updates are bad?

Forgive my confusion, but if character building is streamlined but the fights, ya’know, they things you build your character for in the first place, have gotten more complex than simply “don’t stand in the fire”, that’s the exact opposite of “dumbed down”.


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You're talking about in-game mechanics.
I'm talking about game mechanics.

They are two different things.

Driving a car is simple.
The mechanics behind how a car drives is not.

You're saying that it requires more driving experience now.

I'm saying that knowledge of how your car works doesn't matter anymore.

These are two totally different things.


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Pathfinder Adventure Path, Lost Omens, Starfinder Adventure Path, Starfinder Roleplaying Game Subscriber

I'll just say, as someone who has happily made the jump to PF2, that there are things I miss about PF1.

Not enough to switch back- running and teaching PF2 is far easier, and that's despite my not having more than a decade's experience with it!- but I can understand people who are happy with what they've got.

So, I hope everybody here continues to have a good time bouncing ideas off of each other and creating whatever new content is desired for a beloved system.

Silver Crusade

*Thelith wrote:

You're talking about in-game mechanics.

I'm talking about game mechanics.

They are two different things.

Driving a car is simple.
The mechanics behind how a car drives is not.

You're saying that it requires more driving experience now.

I'm saying that knowledge of how your car works doesn't matter anymore.

These are two totally different things.

... huh?

Your examples don’t make much sense. You very much do need to know how to play your class and know the fights. As for the background design of the fights and classes, no, but you never needed to know those?


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Cole Deschain wrote:

I'll just say, as someone who has happily made the jump to PF2, that there are things I miss about PF1.

Not enough to switch back- running and teaching PF2 is far easier, and that's despite my not having more than a decade's experience with it!- but I can understand people who are happy with what they've got.

So, I hope everybody here continues to have a good time bouncing ideas off of each other and creating whatever new content is desired for a beloved system.

I own PF2 and I’ve tried it twice. They were pretty tentative attempts; I need more exposure. If I weren’t so lacking in energy to learn a new system (IE lazy), I’m sure I’d make the switch as a GM also.

But PF1 it is for now, and for the foreseeable future...


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PF2 does a lot of stuff I like...but I also hate about 90% of the rest of it, it just doesn't feel like pathfinder anymore, which sucks cause Paizo is one of my favorite companies


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Rysky wrote:
*Thelith wrote:

You're talking about in-game mechanics.

I'm talking about game mechanics.

They are two different things.

Driving a car is simple.
The mechanics behind how a car drives is not.

You're saying that it requires more driving experience now.

I'm saying that knowledge of how your car works doesn't matter anymore.

These are two totally different things.

... huh?

Your examples don’t make much sense. You very much do need to know how to play your class and know the fights. As for the background design of the fights and classes, no, but you never needed to know those?

If you can't understand how the choice of 6 talents vs 72 talents and quests pointing to exactly where you are supposed to be 'exploring' and leveling every 7 minutes and instantly porting to dungeons and getting dungeon quests at the front of those dungeons is not 'dumbing down' the game then I don't know how to help you understand.

Silver Crusade

K, not at all what you were talking about that I was responding to there, but back to this.

Yeah, I remember before Dungeon Finder when you had to chill in a main city or at the dungeon entrance hoping to get a group together for it for like an hour and then hoping it doesn't fall apart mid-run. That sucked. It was not fun, it was not challenging or mentally stimulating, it was a time waster that was aggravating. It was a quality of life update, not "dumbing down" the dungeon running experience that let you queue for the dungeon, you still have to know the fights.

As for quest markers... those are in pretty much every game.

Leveling being faster is likewise a quality of life update in that it removed a time waster. You can get to max and experience the full content in a week or two rather than spending months slogging through it.

Removing timewasters that add absolutely nothing to the game are not "dumbing it down".

Back to talents, yes I miss the talent tree, but I'm not going to claim they were complicated, the majority of them were "x ability's damage increased by 1%,2%, etc"


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So, I'm currently running/playing PF1e, PF2e, D&D5e, and BitD.

PF1e will always hold a special place for me. I think it's safe to call it my favorite system. I think despite its flaws, it is definitely one of the best RPGs ever published and laid the groundwork for a number of very positive trends in game design. It's honestly absurd how many good ideas 5e cherry-picked from PF1e.

PF2e is, in my experience, a really good game. A lot of my more casual players who are advanced enough that they're beyond 5e but not quite up to PF1e are very happy with PF2e. I genuinely enjoy running it, even if I see it has flaws. Unfortunately, it holds the unenviable middle ground where it's not sophisticated enough to hold the interest of the more oldschool gamers, and just complicated enough to dissuade the 5e crowd.

Don't get me into all the unaddressed lore changes in 2e. I'm actually totally fine with *addressed* changes in lore, but acting like nothing has changed in the setting is absurd. I shall stop here for fear of further devolution into incoherent ranting.

To address the the question of whether the forums are better now that the 2e crowd has departed?

Honestly, I agree. A lot of good people moved on, but also a very sizable chunk of the toxic types moved on as well. I've tried to get into the 2e forums, but the last couple of times I tried it was... pretty awful. Honestly, I didn't try 2e for a long time because of how toxic sections of the fanbase are.

This concerns me, because I became invested in Pathfinder due to these forums. And I can see that concentrated (and apparently unregulated) toxicity turning new fans away.

Guess I'm just saying it's a double-edged sword.


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I have played 5e a bit now too, and obviously I'm way into PF1. Between the 2, I prefer PF. However I like that 5e has so many scaling powers. A cantrip can stay relevant for many levels because every 5 levels the damage dealt increases or whatever.

Where I come back to PF1 for every time though is the ability to really BUILD a character. You have choices at nearly every level; there are powers and abilities of significance everywhere; dipping into other classes to ratchet on new facets of the build is both easy and rewarding.

In 5e you make a couple choices and boom, you're playing. As you level, unless you multiclass or choose to replace rare upgrades with an occasional feat, you pretty much take possession of a small handful of powers you were bound to since level 1. Gear rarely updates too, unless your DM is handing out tons of magic items, as there's fewer level-dependent hurdles you've gotta clear with items like the Big 6.


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I've adopted a number of rules from the Unchained book and made my own tweaks to Cantrips/caster level scaling that bear some resemblance to D&D 5e, to the point that I think I've settled on a favorite way to play PF1.

Some highlights:
Cantrips works similarly to PF2/5E. They scale in damage as the character levels.
Caster levels stack (up to character level) and opens up a single spell slot of higher level if your caster level is high enough to cast that level of spell, but you don't learn any new spells for that level. No high ability bonus spell slot for this spell level unless your class level is high enough. This lets you make use of metamagic (or a magic item that grants a spell known for that level).
3-action economy fairly similar to PF2. I've kept swift actions (with some tweaks) and changed AoO/Immediate actions to Reactions. Quicken spells are one action. Lay on Hands remains a swift action. BAB does not determine number of attacks available to the character, only the stacking penalty for each.

The result? The game is more dynamic, combat seems to run faster, and battles are more mobile.


DeathlessOne wrote:

I've adopted a number of rules from the Unchained book and made my own tweaks to Cantrips/caster level scaling that bear some resemblance to D&D 5e, to the point that I think I've settled on a favorite way to play PF1.

Some highlights:
Cantrips works similarly to PF2/5E. They scale in damage as the character levels.
Caster levels stack (up to character level) and opens up a single spell slot of higher level if your caster level is high enough to cast that level of spell, but you don't learn any new spells for that level. No high ability bonus spell slot for this spell level unless your class level is high enough. This lets you make use of metamagic (or a magic item that grants a spell known for that level).
3-action economy fairly similar to PF2. I've kept swift actions (with some tweaks) and changed AoO/Immediate actions to Reactions. Quicken spells are one action. Lay on Hands remains a swift action. BAB does not determine number of attacks available to the character, only the stacking penalty for each.

The result? The game is more dynamic, combat seems to run faster, and battles are more mobile.

This is really admirable work. A credit to you, sir!


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Artofregicide wrote:

So, I'm currently running/playing PF1e, PF2e, D&D5e, and BitD.

PF1e will always hold a special place for me. I think it's safe to call it my favorite system. I think despite its flaws, it is definitely one of the best RPGs ever published and laid the groundwork for a number of very positive trends in game design. It's honestly absurd how many good ideas 5e cherry-picked from PF1e.

PF2e is, in my experience, a really good game. A lot of my more casual players who are advanced enough that they're beyond 5e but not quite up to PF1e are very happy with PF2e. I genuinely enjoy running it, even if I see it has flaws. Unfortunately, it holds the unenviable middle ground where it's not sophisticated enough to hold the interest of the more oldschool gamers, and just complicated enough to dissuade the 5e crowd.

Don't get me into all the unaddressed lore changes in 2e. I'm actually totally fine with *addressed* changes in lore, but acting like nothing has changed in the setting is absurd. I shall stop here for fear of further devolution into incoherent ranting.

To address the the question of whether the forums are better now that the 2e crowd has departed?

Honestly, I agree. A lot of good people moved on, but also a very sizable chunk of the toxic types moved on as well. I've tried to get into the 2e forums, but the last couple of times I tried it was... pretty awful. Honestly, I didn't try 2e for a long time because of how toxic sections of the fanbase are.

This concerns me, because I became invested in Pathfinder due to these forums. And I can see that concentrated (and apparently unregulated) toxicity turning new fans away.

Guess I'm just saying it's a double-edged sword.

This isn't specifically to you, oh king slayer, just your post provided a good mental link for some of my thoughts. I've played very briefly in 2E, a fair bit in 3.x, 4E, and then pushing a decade now in PF1e. Several non D&D descendants as well. I've enjoyed some aspect of most of the systems (some more than others), but mechanically I liked 3.x perhaps the most. 4E was my first group experience ever, and I enjoy aspects of that system more than many here. When my group made the jump to PF, it seemed a good synergy to me, even though, I'm well aware that Pathfinder in large part came into being as a rebellion or alternative to 4E. I guess my only real point is, that while I find no system to be perfect, I like to take time to appreciate the good aspects of each. While I have at least one non D20 system that I like more personally (Marvel!), Pathfinder 1 best meets the needs, desires, and comforts of my current group.

Some of us have tried 5E. While some flavor elements were interesting, many of the mechanical changes seemed arbitrary and counter intuitive. My husband has looked into PF2e, and he seemed somewhat excited about the character creation process, but either he explained it poorly, or its just not syncing with me. It seems though that the mechanical changes have limited (or at least confused) a lot of the flavor of distinct races and classes. I'm prepared to be shown otherwise, just haven't yet had the time, energy, or interest to explore a new system.

As far as all the toxic folks go, I feel the need to revive an old nerd sterotype. We're all supposed to be tragic, sad, socially awkward virgins. Let's take all the hateful ones and throw them in a volcano :p

Shadow Lodge

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I enjoy a good volcano sacrifice as much as the next one, but I'd rather be happy, loving gamers instead.


Completely concur. I'm all for tolerance, acceptance, redemption, and variety. If the toxic element crops up too much though, time to feed the fire mountain :p


Sysryke wrote:
Artofregicide wrote:
...Some silly nonsense I said...

This isn't specifically to you, oh king slayer, just your post provided a good mental link for some of my thoughts. I've played very briefly in 2E, a fair bit in 3.x, 4E, and then pushing a decade now in PF1e. Several non D&D descendants as well. I've enjoyed some aspect of most of the systems (some more than others), but mechanically I liked 3.x perhaps the most. 4E was my first group experience ever, and I enjoy aspects of that system more than many here. When my group made the jump to PF, it seemed a good synergy to me, even though, I'm well aware that Pathfinder in large part came into being as a rebellion or alternative to 4E. I guess my only real point is, that while I find no system to be perfect, I like to take time to appreciate the good aspects of each. While I have at least one non D20 system that I like more personally (Marvel!), Pathfinder 1 best meets the needs, desires, and comforts of my current group.

Some of us have tried 5E. While some flavor elements were interesting, many of the mechanical changes seemed arbitrary and counter intuitive. My husband has looked into PF2e, and he seemed somewhat excited about the character creation process, but either he explained it poorly, or its just not syncing with me. It seems though that the mechanical changes have limited (or at least confused) a lot of the flavor of distinct races and classes. I'm prepared to be shown otherwise, just haven't yet had the time, energy, or interest to explore a new system.

As far as all the toxic folks go, I feel the need to revive an old nerd sterotype. We're all supposed to be tragic, sad, socially awkward virgins. Let's take all the hateful ones and throw them in a volcano :p

I really want to play 4e sometime, but I've literally never had a chance. There's basically no PbP out there that I'm aware of.

I kind of see the good in every game system, just like how I try to set the dastardliness in everyone (sometimes it can be hard). Edition wars are really pointless - but understandable in the historical context.

By toxic folks, I more just mean the BadWrongFun(tm) types. I may be one of those people sometimes - no promises.

There's a lot of not great stuff going on in the world currently, but the absolute debunking of the nerd stereotype brings joy to my shriveled, blackened heart.

As for the volcano, seems like a waste of perfectly usable bodies unless you're trying to create some kind of undead powered/haunted magma elemental? In which case, I'm all for it. Regardless of whether they're toxic or wonderful people. Into the volcano you go!


DeathlessOne wrote:

I've adopted a number of rules from the Unchained book and made my own tweaks to Cantrips/caster level scaling that bear some resemblance to D&D 5e, to the point that I think I've settled on a favorite way to play PF1.

Some highlights:
Cantrips works similarly to PF2/5E. They scale in damage as the character levels.
Caster levels stack (up to character level) and opens up a single spell slot of higher level if your caster level is high enough to cast that level of spell, but you don't learn any new spells for that level. No high ability bonus spell slot for this spell level unless your class level is high enough. This lets you make use of metamagic (or a magic item that grants a spell known for that level).
3-action economy fairly similar to PF2. I've kept swift actions (with some tweaks) and changed AoO/Immediate actions to Reactions. Quicken spells are one action. Lay on Hands remains a swift action. BAB does not determine number of attacks available to the character, only the stacking penalty for each.

The result? The game is more dynamic, combat seems to run faster, and battles are more mobile.

Interesting selection of house rules. I've been thinking along the same lines, so it's good to hear ideas from other GMs.


Mark Hoover 330 wrote:


I use 3pp material to bolster my own homebrewed stuff, but I haven't bought any in about a year. I've got multiple APs to get through and lots of supplements. That being said I'm a fan of Frog God Games and should start buying their stuff again, for whenever I can get more new games/campaigns started.

I think FGG is also Necromancer, right? Anyway, I like them and Raging Swan Press has really great supplements.

You might want to sub to their newsletter as they've been releasing support for Pathfinder 1e with most of their new Kickstarters and Indiegogo campaigns. I've supported several of their stand-alone modules and went all in on one of the recent campaign settings Tehuatl which I plan to use for Arcadia on Golariono.

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