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That's certainly an interesting idea. However, it doesn't fully solve some of the problems of low level flight which is bypassing obstacles. Closer than a lot of ideas, certainly.
I'd be tempted to place it a little lower than level 9's "use resource for short duration flight"
Every summoner can bypass vertical obstacles at level 5 by granting themselves a climb speed, which can easily be flavored as limited flight.
The same is true of the Climbing Evolution at 6, which could easily be renamed something like "Ascension Evolution" or just have this added to its description.
Theres almost zero balance issue with the example given in the original post here.
The practical problem is simply that its mostly redundant with options that already exist at levels 5, 6, and 9. I worry that makes this redundant, or possibly a trap feat at 8... and we're strapped for page space (presumably, maybe there's room at 8? I'm assuming we want as much value crammed in as possible).
The problem is that flight in of it's self is cool, and re-flavoring really doesn't fix that. It's like if the eidolon didn't have any attacks and you just cast cantrips though them. Even if the end result was the exact same, the eidolon its self attacking just has a certain feeling that re-flavoring cantrips can't reach. yes, at some point limited flight and climbing will have a lot of overlap, but it's the times they don't overlap that truly give the sense of flight.Every summoner can bypass vertical obstacles at level 5 by granting themselves a climb speed, which can easily be flavored as limited flight.
The same is true of the Climbing Evolution at 6, which could easily be renamed something like "Ascension Evolution" or just have this added to its description.
Theres almost zero balance issue with the example given in the original post here.
The practical problem is simply that its mostly redundant with options that already exist at levels 5, 6, and 9. I worry that makes this redundant, or possibly a trap feat at 8... and we're strapped for page space (presumably, maybe there's room at 8? I'm assuming we want as much value crammed in as possible).
Note that I'm not on some crusade to deny flight to people here - I just think that its mechanically redundant to have a feat dedicated to an ability that is essentially redundant with a 5th level application of Evolution Surge and totally redundant at 9th level.
That said, this got me thinking about how you could add value to such a feat by having it interact with and provide benefits to Evolution Surge when it would normally become redundant.
Please stop by my thread on it and see what you think. That thread isn't just about a lower level fly evolution, but that's where I started.
This 3-action flight prevents mounted flight on an eidolon. By the Riding Independent Creatures box on page 22 of the playtest document, if a creature rides an eidolon, then the eidolon has only two actions a turn. So it won't be able to fly.
If a summoner learns Hulking Evolution, summoner feat 6, then the summoner riding his or her eidolon leaves it with full 3 actions. However, the shared actions between summoner and eidolon means that the summoner riding on a flying eidolon cannot do anything besides ride.
If the summoner uses Synthesis, summoner feat 1, then he or she travels along with the eidolon but has no actions of his or her own.
siegfriedliner's idea is a valid way to prevent aerial attacks by a flying eidolon.
I would write this feat as:
Flight Evolution summoner feat 2
Evolution, Summoner
Your eidolon can use the Earnest Flight activity.
Earnest Flight [3-actions] You Fly with fly speed 80 feet. If you’re airborne at the beginning of your next turn, you either must commit to a Fly action that turn, such as via Earnest Flight, or fall at the beginning of that turn.
Later, the summoner would have a Sustained Flight Evolution at high level that has Flight Evolution as a prerequisite and allows more flexible flight.
Sustained Flight Evolution, feat ???
Evolution, Summoner
Prerequisite Flight Evolution
Your eidolon gains a fly Speed equal to their Speed.
If their Speed is still 25 feet, then Earnest Flight is a little faster.
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Later, the summoner would have a Sustained Flight Evolution at high level that has Flight Evolution as a prerequisite and allows more flexible flight.
This is something I desperately want to avoid, personally - persistent flight is really good as a 16th level feat, but its hit hard by adding a prior feat to the cost.
Currently, I can make a eidolon with wings and spend zero feats on flying, and fly in every single combat encounter. If I want perma flight on top, it costs one feat.
I dont see a good reason for it to cost two feats.
Later, the summoner would have a Sustained Flight Evolution at high level that has Flight Evolution as a prerequisite and allows more flexible flight.
This is something I desperately want to avoid, personally - persistent flight is really good as a 16th level feat, but its hit hard by adding a prior feat to the cost.
Currently, I can make a eidolon with wings and spend zero feats on flying, and fly in every single combat encounter. If I want perma flight on top, it costs one feat.
I dont see a good reason for it to cost two feats.
This.
Instead of costing two feats, it should either be one feat that we can take at high level (aka what we have currently) or be one feat that scale at higher level.I hate it when a feat I took becomes useless because another higher level feat I took do the exact same thing, but better. More feats -should means more options, not more power in one option.
Later, the summoner would have a Sustained Flight Evolution at high level that has Flight Evolution as a prerequisite and allows more flexible flight.
This is something I desperately want to avoid, personally - persistent flight is really good as a 16th level feat, but its hit hard by adding a prior feat to the cost.
Currently, I can make a eidolon with wings and spend zero feats on flying, and fly in every single combat encounter. If I want perma flight on top, it costs one feat.
I dont see a good reason for it to cost two feats.
Okay, PF2 tries to avoid feat chains, so that is consistent design. Drop the prerequisite and allow the summoner to retrain the low-level Flight Evolution away. In that case, we can call low-level feat Fledgling Flight Evolution.
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If the problem is the eidolon attacking from the air, an obvious fix would be for lower level flight abilities to prevent attacking while airborne.
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If the problem is Eidolons attacking from the air, do we have the same issue with flying Animal Companions?
The bird companion even has a flyby attack.
I don't think attacks from the air are the problem.
Player Characters avoiding attacks by flying is the problem.
But we have a fix for that.
Why are we not using the animal companion rule (If it is carrying a rider, the animal companion can use only its land Speed)to allow Eidolons to fly from level 1?
Expand the rule to include being fused with your Eidolon, and your done.
Sauce for the goose is sauce for the gander.
There are tons of ways to get access to a flying minion from 1st level on.
Same goes for most modes of travel.
Let the summoner bring fully functional Eidolons into being.
Control how and when player characters can access the gamebreaking abilities for themselves.
It's because the eidolon is way stronger than an animal companion. A flying eidolon is, essentially, the same thing as a flying [insert martial character here]. Literally the same thing if Synthesist gets fixed to be what people want it to be.
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If the problem is Eidolons attacking from the air, do we have the same issue with flying Animal Companions?
The bird companion even has a flyby attack.
I don't think attacks from the air are the problem.
The bird is moving into melee range to attack, it's not raining down arrows and spells.
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The bird is moving into melee range to attack, it's not raining down arrows and spells.If the problem is Eidolons attacking from the air, do we have the same issue with flying Animal Companions?
The bird companion even has a flyby attack.
I don't think attacks from the air are the problem.
Or picking locks, negotiating with NPCs, or making Recall Knowledge checks about what it can see and relating its findings in detail.
Its about way more than just combat.
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The idea of my feat is that allowed act of flying to be combined with no actions so it doesn't break anything whilst still in fact being flight for all us purist who want flight for their winged eidiolon.
So, here's a versamilitude issue with that - Seek is an action, and one you're assuming to be using while Exploring. Same with Recall Knowledge.
Does it make any more sense that that your winged eidolon is partially blinded and can't remember things while flying, than the idea that a winged eidolon can't fly in mechanically relevant situations?
It also doesn't prevent any of the "out of bounds" (in the video game speedrunning sense) shenanigans you run into because the Eidolon can simply ignore many barriers that exist at lower levels, land, and perform essentially any actions a player could on the other side.
I get what you're trying to accomplish here - I really do. I just think that its going to cause enough issues that even if they do print it, its going to end up tagged as Uncommon to ensure GMs can curate it and therefore out of reach by most players by default anyway.
Even Leshy Glide, the most reasonable representation of low level flight I can imagine, is 5th level and locked behind an Uncommon ancestry.
I would be fine with this if you slap an Uncommon or even Rare tag on it. I'm not sure how much I, as a GM, like the idea of planning around the core feature of a class that can circumvent walls, scout, having a high level of mobility, and overcome floor based hazards at the word go. Especially all before level 7. That's setting a very unhealthy precedent.
tagged as Uncommon
Oh hey, jynx.
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Here's what I could reasonably imagine from a low level "Wings" feat for Eidolons could look like, that doesnt violate any of the barriers currently established in the system -
****
Developing Wings - Feat 1
Your Eidolon gains a Skill Increase that may only be applied toward its own proficiciency in Acrobatics or Athletics.
Your eidolon may use the Arrest a Fall reaction, even if it lacks a Fly speed. It gains a +2 circumstance modifier to its Acrobatics check for this reaction.
Your eidolon gains the benefits of the Quick Jump Skill feat, and a +2 circumstance bonus to the High Jump and Long Jump actions.
****
A lot of value from a feat, along a specific thematic line, but which doesn't violate any of the invisible "safety rails" built into the system.
Also, its not redundant with later fly abilities because the skill increase and circumstance bonuses retain value.
Here is a my solution to that problem
Is it even a problem?
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Here's what I could reasonably imagine from a low level "Wings" feat for Eidolons could look like, that doesnt violate any of the barriers currently established in the system -
****
Developing Wings - Feat 1
Your Eidolon gains a Skill Increase that may only be applied toward its own proficiciency in Acrobatics or Athletics.
Your eidolon may use the Arrest a Fall reaction, even if it lacks a Fly speed. It gains a +2 circumstance modifier to its Acrobatics check for this reaction.
Your eidolon gains the benefits of the Quick Jump Skill feat, and a +2 circumstance bonus to the High Jump and Long Jump actions.
****
A lot of value from a feat, along a specific thematic line, but which doesn't violate any of the invisible "safety rails" built into the system.
Also, its not redundant with later fly abilities because the skill increase and circumstance bonuses retain value.
That has to be the best proposal I've seen regarding low level Eidolon wings in the couple of weeks of testing
Second logical step is something like leshi glide, or levitation
Then into the limited flight, then into the unlimited flight
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Second logical step is something like leshi glide, or levitationThen into the limited flight, then into the unlimited flight
Note that we really want to avoid a feat chain or progression here, because that gets really expensive real quick.
The current situation is Super Cheap class resource wise, in that limited flight is completely class resource free at level 9, when Flight as a focus spell comes online.
Then perma flight costs a grand total of one feat at level 16, though a level 16 feat is appropriate as the established cost for this ability (meaning a lower level feat that "becomes" perma flight later is likely inappropriate).
Any solution that doesn't add value to that, but costs class resources, ends up kindof being a nerf in many ways.
That means if something was added at levels 4-8 - where it would actually matter - it needs to be somehow non-redundant with existing options, retain value, or be the first feat printed that provides free retraining later when it becomes redundant.
Thats becoming tricky to justify and work in. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that there are a lot of practical obstacles in a class entry thats likely to be highly competitive for options due to space limitations.
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Second logical step is something like leshi glide, or levitationThen into the limited flight, then into the unlimited flight
Note that we really want to avoid a feat chain or progression here, because that gets really expensive real quick.
The current situation is Super Cheap class resource wise, in that limited flight is completely class resource free at level 9, when Flight as a focus spell comes online.
Then perma flight costs a grand total of one feat at level 16, though a level 16 feat is appropriate as the established cost for this ability (meaning a lower level feat that "becomes" perma flight later is likely inappropriate).
Any solution that doesn't add value to that, but costs class resources, ends up kindof being a nerf in many ways.
That means if something was added at levels 4-8 - where it would actually matter - it needs to be somehow non-redundant with existing options, retain value, or be the first feat printed that provides free retraining later when it becomes redundant.
Thats becoming tricky to justify and work in. I'm not saying it can't be done, just that there are a lot of practical obstacles in a class entry thats likely to be highly competitive for options due to space limitations.
Makes perfect sense
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Here is a my solution to that problemIs it even a problem?
We have different problems with flying and they change by level.
At low levels, flying creatures are limited to melee attacks in order to give ground-bound opponents a chance to strike back. This limits a defensive flying creature to one attack per round, via Fly in, Strike, Fly away. The target can ready a Strike to strike back just as often.
I checked the damage of low-level flying monsters, such as the Giant Bat creature 2, dealing 1d10+4 slashing damage with its fangs. That is comparable to other 2nd-level animals, such as Black Bear with 1d8+5 piercing damage from its jaws and Crocodile with 1d10+4 piercing damage plus Grab and Giant Viper with 1d8+3 piercing damage plus giant viper venom. The difference is that each animal has a special feature: flying, grab, or venom are the common ones. Flying is the entire special feature for a low-level flying creature.
Animal companions are weaker than independent animals, because they are a class feature. Thus, the bat animal companion performs a mere 1d6 piercing damage with its jaws. The bird animal companion is granted FLyby attack since its two actions per turn don't allow Fly, Strike, Fly, but that is still one attack per round.
Low-level flying monsters with a ranged attack are infrequent. I have spotted the Sprite creature -1, Grig creature 1, Faerie Dragon creature 2, and River Drake, creature 3. Ranged attacks are more common at 6th level, with the tail spikes of the Manticore, the spit venom of the Jungle Drake, and the breath weapons of young dragons.
The Pegasus, creature 3, is based on a famous mount from Greek mythology. That suggests another method of ranged attacks from the air: an archer riding on a winged mount. If the archer is also creature 3, then the combination counts as challenging as a creature 5, but will be encountered at lower levels.
And what stops a winged human-shaped creature from picking up a bow on his or her own? That is what the Pixie creature 4 and Bralani (Wind Azata) creature 6, do. Presumably, shooting a bow is beyond the tiny flying imps and quasits, creature 1.
We do not want a winged eidolon to be better than a winged monster of the same level.
Furthermore, while every experienced player knows that martial characters need a ranged weapon to defend against flying opponents, many monsters cannot use weapons and have no way of making ranged attacks. Mark Seifter pointed this out in Welcome to the Summoner Class Playtest!, comment #373,
I can speak to one thing, though. When it comes to constant flying on something that can attack from out of the foes' reach (or "kiting"), the game cannot handle it before a certain level without the GM doing some pretty big lifts. After we hit the highest levels, every opponent gets a pass where we look at it saying "Does it have a way to deal with an opponent attacking from out of reach in the air, even if that's just 'OK I'm leaving, burrow away' " but before that, they don't (and frankly if they all did at low levels, it would be pretty verisimilitude breaking) and the GM has to do it and can't really use prepublished adventures The bird animal companion, for example, can fly right away but is incapable of attacking or supporting unless it comes into reach, and it can't carry along another character capable of kiting.
He was talking about permanent flight, but this also applies to 10-minute flight since combat seldoms lasts as long as 10 minutes. Therefore, we don't want ranged attacks from the air by the PCs before 95% of the monsters can defend against it, unless strongly limited such as once a day.
The balance of character power also gives another reason to delay flight. Flight is a powerful ability, adding protection, bypassing obstacles, and usually increasing speed. It is worth more than a single low-level class feat. High-level class feats are more valuable, so an aasimar can gain 10 minutes of flight once a day for an ancestry feat 9, Celestial Wings. Permanent flight waits until Eternal Wings, ancestry feat 17.
KrispyXIV in comment #7 above points out a problem with copying the aasimer feats: it is a feat chain. Pathfinder 2nd Edition has a design goal of avoiding feat chains. Thus, if we have a low-level feat that grants limited flight, the player should be able to retrain it when taking a high-level feat that grants unlimited flight.
There are further arguments about the value of limited flight versus unlimited flight, but they are too long to discuss here. This solution thread is about limited flight.
Very illuminating MathMuse.
I can see that eidolons get access a ranged attack at level 8(?), but they get access to cantrips at level 2.
It's interesting that you bring up creatures, I would have pegged eidilon flying + ranged attacks to when PCs can summon flying mounts.
Hippogriffs, being creature 2 make that level 5.
Comparable to levitate.
Very illuminating MathMuse.
I can see that eidolons get access a ranged attack at level 8(?), but they get access to cantrips at level 2.
It's interesting that you bring up creatures, I would have pegged eidilon flying + ranged attacks to when PCs can summon flying mounts.
Hippogriffs, being creature 2 make that level 5.
Comparable to levitate.
Note that Summoning a flying mount also has a serious risk associated with it, as flight options such as that often lack a "safe landing" clause if someone does manage to take the extremely vulnerable low level summon out from under you.
Good point.
Better to use levitate, available at 3rd level.
One action per turn to stabilize,or face a -2 on attacks.
Climbing or crawling moves you 5 feet horizontally.
Vertical movement is 10 feet per action,requires concentration .
So slow,unsteady flight, at level 3,more or less.
Horizontal movement without a surface would be an up grade, but not much of one.
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Note that Summoning a flying mount also has a serious risk associated with it, as flight options such as that often lack a "safe landing" clause if someone does manage to take the extremely vulnerable low level summon out from under you.Very illuminating MathMuse.
I can see that eidolons get access a ranged attack at level 8(?), but they get access to cantrips at level 2.
It's interesting that you bring up creatures, I would have pegged eidilon flying + ranged attacks to when PCs can summon flying mounts.
Hippogriffs, being creature 2 make that level 5.
Comparable to levitate.
Summoning a hippogriff via a 3rd-level Summon Animal spell appears to be a workable tactic at 5th level. The hippogriff has fly speed 65 feet, hp 32, and AC 18. A 5th-level gnome wizard with Dex 16 and Con 12 has hp 43 and AC 20. In an open battlefield the wizard's martial friends battle the enemy in melee while he flies safely 20 feet above casting Electric Arc. The enemy archers target the hippogriff and in a few rounds they deal 32 damage and take it down. The wizard falls on his butt and takes 10 falling damage, but that is still about 16 fewer damage than if the archers had targeted him instead (remember, he has higher AC, so more arrows would have missed him). 16 damage is 37% of his hit points, so it matters.
This tactic does have a heavy action cost: three actions to cast Summon Animal, one action to mount the hippogriff, one action each turn to Sustain the spell, and one action after falling to stand up. Casting Fireball from a distance would be faster, and he could follow up with Ray of Frost and Shield from 110 feet away. Nevertheless, I can see the wizard preparing 3rd-level Summon Animal in his daily preparations, due to the versatility of the spell.
At 7th level, the Fly spell will be more convenient.
If we keep the summoner on the ground, the eidilon is still vulnerable to melee attacks.
It also precludes using flight to bypass challenges.
100 feet or how ever far the eidilon can go in 1 minute (750 feet?) isn't much.
Non-Combat actions like lock picking, or social interaction, are they usually behind a movement obstacle?
Maybe a locked chest in a tower.
Perhaps an infiltration of a castle.
So yeah, it happens.
I can see using an unseen servant, summoned monster,animal companion, familiar or spell to bypass movement obstacles or to scout ahead.
They all have limitations that an eidilon might not, but they don't risk the player character the way a eidilon does,and some of them are unlimited in range.
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But they still want flying eidolons to be locked behind a focus spell until level 16.
You say "locked behind a focus spell" like that isn't the best option for limited flight available.
It means your eidolon can fly in every encounter of the day on a regular refocus schedule.
Thats infinitely better than any "x/day" or once per hour solution.
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Good point.
Better to use levitate, available at 3rd level.One action per turn to stabilize,or face a -2 on attacks.
Climbing or crawling moves you 5 feet horizontally.
Vertical movement is 10 feet per action,requires concentration .So slow,unsteady flight, at level 3,more or less.
Horizontal movement without a surface would be an up grade, but not much of one.
Levitate has a spell level of 3; you can't cast it till your fifth.
Edit: So Paizo thinks this (crappy) spell should use up as much resources as a Fireball. Imagine if your eidolon could cast Fireball at-will. That's how Paizo values a low-level flight option; even one as restrictive as Levitate.
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I dont want eidolon to need a focus spell to do what it should be able to do on its own.
Gating it behind a focus spell is not the best option. It is one option and arguably the a bad one flavor wise.
Perhaps the better solution is to rethink what a focus spell is, can be, or can represent.
Instead of limiting yourself to a narrow interpretation that doesn't fit, come up with one that does.
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I want the Eidolon to fly when it wants as long as it has the flight evolution.
You can. At 16th level, when its an appropriate ability for a functional player character.
Before that, your character as a whole has access at 9 via Focus ability.
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Krispy people have said you can have flying summons and spells by 8th level.
And you can have flying permanent companions and familiars at level 1 wirh severe restrictions.
The level 16 limit to get a flight evolutions is bad.
Its standard for player characters.
See when other player characters can get this ability - greater cloak of the bat, aasimar and tieflings are all 17.
This is a case where youre seriously advocating for a player characrer asset with player character capability to get early access to a mechanic just because, while ignoring that the balance considerations for the game have already established when that mechanic should be available.
16th level is generous for perma flight.
Violating these barriers is exactly how you break the balance of the game and end up with Summoners right back at "most banned class in the game".
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Dino the Eidolon is not the player. Its a class feature of the Summoner. Just like animal companions are a class features.
Its a class feature with 99% of the capabilities of a player character.
It should be subject to the same limitations as a player character, unless you really want it nerfed into the ground to the same level of capability of a Feat Tree/Dedication like animal companions or familiars (which dont rate nearly the same as a "class feature" as a Eidolon does currently).
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Others and I have said that a decrease in power for more customization is good.
If flying is bad with the current power level. Make the power level weaker to allow the choice of flight or power. Let the players pick what they want and when.
Id rather have an Eidolon that makes the Summoner a viable hybrid caster/ martial, and gets things like the ability to fly on the same schedule as any other player character.
I like where the class is at the peak of its current power level, and I feel like my evaluation of power is extremely on the conservative side.
I dont know how many people are going to agree with cutting the power level of the class to get stuff like flight sooner.
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So an eidolon can't get a ranged attack before 8th level, and Summoners get temporary flight via Evolution Surge at 9th level. 8th level is when Wizards can start casting "fly" and 10th level is when Monks get Wind Jump.
So I'm not 100% clear on what problem we're trying to solve here.
So an eidolon can't get a ranged attack before 8th level, and Summoners get temporary flight via Evolution Surge at 9th level. 8th level is when Wizards can start casting "fly" and 10th level is when Monks get Wind Jump.
So I'm not 100% clear on what problem we're trying to solve here.
Eidolons can make ranged attacks via cantrips at level 2, if i recall.
Eidolons can make ranged attacks via cantrips at level 2, if i recall.
I feel like "Eidolon hovers out of range shooting telekinetic projectiles at you" is fixed by "everyone can tell that the eidolon is connected to the summoner" and "harassing the summoner is a good way to get the summoner to stop that."
Since if your Eidolon casts "Electric Arc" that leaves the Summoner with at most one action.
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Eidolons can make ranged attacks via cantrips at level 2, if i recall.I feel like "Eidolon hovers out of range shooting telekinetic projectiles at you" is fixed by "everyone can tell that the eidolon is connected to the summoner" and "harassing the summoner is a good way to get the summoner to stop that."
Since if your Eidolon casts "Electric Arc" that leaves the Summoner with at most one action.
Again, youre making a lot of assumptions about the Summoner standing in the open wanting to be murdered.
There are plenty of evasion/avoidance strategies that work just fine on 1 action.