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Has anyone had any experience with creating a class for pathfinder 2e?

I have been wanting to create a custom class for pathfinder 2e for a while now, but the process is a daunting one, both from a design and a game balance standpoint.

So does anyone have any advice as to what I should do/not do when attempting this? For those of you who have created a class for pf 2e is there anything that you wish you would have known/ done differently before you started on the process?

For reference, my idea is to make a dragon based ancestry/class combination like was done by several third party companies for pf 1e. I already have a draft for the ancestry, but the class part is a far more daunting task.

This is honestly incredible. It is not perfect, and there are some things that I would have done differently*, but I can see just how much time and effort went into this conversion, and how much you did to keep things balanced. You did a stellar job of integrating everything into the pathfinder 2e framework, and in making sure to stick within the boundaries of the game. The future-proofing, acknowledging, and giving advice for official variants...the amount of thought and effort that went into this conversion really shines through.

Probably the thing that I liked best from the player's side of the table is how you handle mythic surges and mythic heightening, it is elegant, neat, and at a glance does not seem to be overtly problematic from a gameplay perspective.

The thing that I liked best from a gm perspective is that you made it so that demigods and demi goddesses actually have spellcasting, YES! Seriously, one of my biggest issues with pathfinder 1e mythic was just how poorly divine beings were handled. They had a handful of spell-like abilities, no applicable divine abilities or control over what they were supposed to hold sway over, and were only mythic inside of there realm. When a 20th level cleric has far more divine abilities and powers than a cr 30 actual demipower, my suspension of disbelief pretty much curled up and died. While I personally would go a little bit further than you have in differentiating demigods and demigoddesses from other monsters of equal level, I think you have done a fantastic job with starting the process of making them far more interesting and divine than they were in the previous edition.

*I am personally a fan of the way that the mythic system in PF 1e was a separate progression from the normal level system. Being able to add mythic abilities to low level pcs and monsters made the system feel very unique and distinct from just increasing the level cap. I do appreciate how you did try your best to still allow that as an option though!

Quote:

2 action

Strike + Grapple (reduced/no MAP) - grab monsters

Strike + Trip (reduced/no MAP) - knockdown, like wolves

I've been looking to add something like those since early in the playtest based on everyone's feedback, they were in my idea list even before then. Possibly also including a constrict/thrash style follow-up for grappling that makes the enemy roll a basic Fort save or take some damage.

Hey Mark. Any chance we are going to be seeing abilities like Trample/Swallow or other high powered monster abilities as high level feats?

Dino the Eidolon is not the player. Its a class feature of the Summoner. Just like animal companions are a class features.

Spells are just a class feature for wizards, so that means that permanent flight should be available as a first-level spell.....

Oh wait

No, it shouldn't.

Claiming that it is "just a class feature so it should be equivalent to any other class feature" is ignoring that class features are not of equivalent power to each other, and can do very different things.

This is a terrible argument.

I honestly think Paizo should include an option that allows for more customization. An open ended option that may not be listed under the packages.

This would look like this.

Create-your-own
Choose a creature type from the list
Animal
Astral
Beast
Celestial
Construct
Dragon
Elemental
Ethereal
Fey
Fiend
Fungus
Humanoid
Monitor
Ooze
Plant
Spirit
Undead

Pick a damage type for your 1d8 damage (B/S/P/acid/electricity/fire/cold/sonic/negative)

Pick a damage type for your 1d4 damage(agile) (B/S/P/acid/electricity/fire/cold/sonic/negative)

Stats for the Eidolon are as follows, 18/16/14/12/10/8. Arrange them how you see fit.

Level 1 - Pick a single monster ability from this list (lists monster abilities for level 1's)

Level 5 - Pick a single monster ability from this list (lists monster abilities for level 5's)

Level 10 - Pick a single monster ability from this list (lists monster abilities for level 10's)

Level 15 - Pick a single monster ability from this list (lists monster abilities for level 15's)

Level 20 - Pick a single monster ability from this list (lists monster abilities for level 20's)

And change each package to follow that same level scheme.

I think this would be incredibly balanced and would get what I want while maintaining what you want.

Thoughts?

I actually really like this idea.

My only question would be this...would you get to choose your own school of magic and skill proficiencies as well?

Also I approve of the really hungry dragon :)

Verzen wrote:

Justpassingthrough wrote:

KrispyXIV wrote:

OrochiFuror wrote:

Synthesis should be more like a superior battle form that you can take when ever you want.

The danger here is that a Synthesist can have an extremely good Statline by dumping physical stats with essentially no drawbacks. Restrictions on actions taken serve as a balance to this - it needs to be hard to take advantage of being Perfect-Stats-Man, or you start to make everyone at the table feel bad because your attribute for everything is always +4 or better on everything you care about across multiple stats.

There is a very easy solution to this, allow the summoner to choose to keep their own stats when they go into synthesis mode, or use their eidolons stats. They cannot combine these approaches, but they can switch between them by resummoning there eidolon.

That takes care of the power problem and does so in a way that does not require reducing the synthesist to 2 actions (which would make the synthesist almost unplayable).

I 100% agree with this approach.

It's still really problematic when all you need to do is switch with 3 actions. Effectively on any task that isn't immediately required, you can still be best stat person. Randomly going to a library? Hold on 6 seconds while I switch. Climbing a ravine? One second while I switch. Identifying the possibly poisonous plants at the top? Hold on while I switch.

It is not problematic in the slightest, because this is exactly what a regular non-synthesist summoner can already do. A regular summoner has the exact same ability scores, skills, and proficiencies as this upgraded synthesist would have, just split between two bodies instead of using a switching mechanic. The two bodies thing is a downside in some cases, but it also enables the summoner to take full advantage of there action economy, which the synthesist loses out on.

OrochiFuror wrote:

Synthesis should be more like a superior battle form that you can take when ever you want.

The danger here is that a Synthesist can have an extremely good Statline by dumping physical stats with essentially no drawbacks. Restrictions on actions taken serve as a balance to this - it needs to be hard to take advantage of being Perfect-Stats-Man, or you start to make everyone at the table feel bad because your attribute for everything is always +4 or better on everything you care about across multiple stats.

There is a very easy solution to this, allow the summoner to choose to keep their own stats when they go into synthesis mode, or use their eidolons stats. They cannot combine these approaches, but they can switch between them by resummoning there eidolon.

That takes care of the power problem and does so in a way that does not require reducing the synthesist to 2 actions (which would make the synthesist almost unplayable).

Ssalarn wrote:

Just to name a few possible examples. Basically any time the eidolon has a sensory ability, movement mode, or other benefit that you lack but is pertinent to the environment and the party is in danger of ambush or hazard, there's some benefit to Synthesis. Riding the eidolon is cool, but it also pretty much guarantees that you'll be rolling twice and taking the worse result against any AoEs that get lobbed your way, and some aspects of relevant abilities, like Amphibious Form giving the ability to breathe or attack without penalty underwater, won't transfer to a rider.

Synthesis is a potentially useful utility Feat. Taken in isolation, it's not a bad one, since it just flatly adds an option. Having it is never worse than not having it, and often better.

None of that is the problem with Synthesis. The problem with Synthesis is that usually, absent weird environmental conditions your Eidolon is immune to, actually using it in combat is actively detrimental and bad. And people want to use it in combat, in fact, most people who want it want to use it exclusively, they never actually want to put out an Eidolon separate from themselves.

The particular fantasy archetype of wearing an Eidolon as a transformation or suit of power armor is almost completely separate from that of having a pet, and people who want one seldom want the other thematically. And the Feat doesn't actually make that a good, reasonable, or fun play style at all. It's frustrating and feels like a trap option because it doesn't actually enable the thematic thing it references from PF1 as a remotely viable option, but sort of looks like it does.

And, for many people, that's both frustrating and disappointing.

The only Summoner I ever played in PF1 was a Synthesist, specifically he was an Aasimar who 'assumed his full angelic glory' via his Synthesist ability to 'wear' his Eidolon. That character rarely used spells in combat (he used the Create Pit line occasionally, and...

Thank you Deadmanwalking, for perfectly summing up my own thoughts and feelings on the matter.

I do not want to play a person who is bonded to a dragon, or even someone who can summon and control dragons. I want to play the freaking dragon. And Paizo is so, so close to having this be something that can actually happen.

Sure eventually some third party company might come out with a way to do so, but there is no guarantee whatsoever that the way they do it will be even remotely balanced against anything Paizo has published. Pathfinder 2e is a much tighter system than pathfinder 1e, and relies on an entirely new series of mechanics and game systems that have never been seen before. Unlike the previous edition, where the game breaks down so much by high levels that allowing most third party content into a high-level game does not actually impact the nonexistent game balance in any meaningful way, pathfinder 2e is on a much tighter leash. Any deviation from that is likely to create something that is either worthless enough to never be played or absolutely overpowered compared to the rest of the table. And to be honest I do not trust many third-party companies to be able to walk that line, given that even Paizo, the systems creator, seems to have had difficulty walking it at some points.

So let's say that some other company does come up with a way to allow for monstrous pcs that are actually balanced and fun at the table. That is excellent...except for the fact that many tables will not allow any third party content simply on principal.

But Paizo, in creating the summoner and having synthesis be a feat, is very close to allowing me to officially play something like a dragon and have it be both balanced against other party members and accepted at the gaming table due to its origins. The only thing standing in the way of that is the fact that synthesis the feat does not actually allow for such a thing as Deadmanwalking pointed out above.

I absolutely agree that we should get something along the lines of synthesis/ normal summoner/ master summoner as options starting at level 1 in the final version. Class feats could then be tailored to the three paths, or open up extra evolution options.

I really want evolution options like poison, grab, constrict, rend, rake, and swallow to be added as evolution options. If I am going to be playing a monster a la synthesist, I want to be playing a MONSTER, one with access to all those neat special abilities.

I would be fine if summoners lost their spellcasting ability minus focus spells in exchange, but I really want to play as a giant beastie with access to all of my normal abilities to boot. I still stand by my idea of what a synthesist should look like though, loosing out on action economy is already enough of a penalty to justify having access to all of your abilities.

Leaving synthesists access to all of there normal abilities and proficiencies (if they are higher than the eidolons) will also help greatly when dealing with free archetype/ dual classing variants (or even just multiclassing normally). Nothing would feel worse than being locked out of not only your own class abilities but also the abilities of your entire other class as well.

This is ultimately why I believe synthesists should retain their abilities (with the exception of ability scores, where they have to choose either their eidolons or there own). It helps to future proof and past proof them for both existing and future archetypes and varients.

I see a simpler solution, just allow them access to all of there abilities, feats, and features while in synthesis mode (with the exception of tandem abilities), but have them use there eidolon's ability scores in place of their own.

Sure you can still cast spells and take other actions, but with your lower mental ability scores those spells are going to be pretty useless for affecting anything other than yourself and your allies.

This largely solves every issue that has been presented so far and is far from overpowering. Loosing out on tendem abilities looks like a serious nerf to the summoners capabilities, so a regular summoner is still better in almost every situation.

Honestly, the best solution I can see is to use the above changes, and then have a high-level feat which makes it so that you can choose to use your own ability scores or your eidolon's when you summon it. That way, you cannot be competent in melee and magic at the same time, but can still ultimately match the relative versatility of the base summoner and play as a monster to boot.

So while I really like what I see so far for the summoner, I see both issues and opportunities for the synthesist.

Right now synthesist just seems to be a strictly bad option, it removes pretty much all of your class features, and does not really give any noticeable benefit whatsoever. It is a cool feat, but there really does not seem to be much practical application to it (which is a shame, as being able to turn into or play as a dragon or other creature is extremely cool).

As synthesist is a first level feat, I can understand the severe restriction on it. However the lack of any future feat support for synthesist is something which I was disappointed by, as a synthesist, while not a subclass in and of itself, seems like it could benefit greatly from a feat chain that unlocks more and more abilities.

Specifically, I am thinking of a series of feats that gradually gives you the ability to use your own actions and abilities while merged (and your own ability scores if they are higher than the edilons). You still would not be able to use tandom actions, which would place some balance restrictions on the abilities, and the potentially high feat cost for unlocking all of your abilities would also provide an opportunity cost.

I understand that synthesist was the stuff of gm nightmares in pathfinder 1e, but think the nerfs and lack of feat support may have been overkill. Do you have any plans for expanding on the synthesist, or is that a direction which Paizo is not really going to go in?

P.S the reason why i am asking this is mainly because I love the idea of playing a dragon :)

I am starting this out with a huge shout out to both Bandw2 (on the Paizo forms) and u/fanatic66 (on Reddit). Both of there ideas have been instrumental as baselines for this work (Bandw2 for his original draft of dragon ancestry and archetype, and u/fanatic66 for his fantastic dragonborn ancestry, now on its 8th draft), and some of the abilities that I have here have been drawn directly from their work. With that done, I would like to welcome everybody to comment and critique my first draft of a true dragon ancestry.

Dragon Base Stats
Traits: Dragon, rare
Hit Points: 8
Size: Medium
Speed: 25 feet
Ability Boosts: Free, Free
Ability Flaw: Any
Languages: Common and Draconic. Additional languages equal to your Intelligence modifier (if it is positive). Choose from the list of common languages and any other languages to which you have access (such as the languages prevalent in your region).
Darkvision: You can see in darkness and dim light just as well as you can see in bright light, though your vision in darkness is in black and white.
Sleep Susceptibility: Although you have the dragon type, you are not immune to sleep effects.
Paralysis Susceptibility: Although you have the dragon type, you are not immune to the paralyzed condition.
Draconic Form: You are quadrupedal, although your foreclaws are dexterous enough that you can hold and manipulate objects as well as a humanoid hand can. You can wield weapons and hold items in your foreclaws, however you take a -10 foot penalty to your land speed while doing so.
Dragon Fangs: You have a jaws unarmed attack that deals 1d8 piercing damage, your jaws are in the brawling group and have the unarmed trait.
Draconic Element: Choose a damage type from the following list, acid, cold, electricity, fire, sonic. Whenever an ability refers to your dragon damage type, you use the corresponding damage type.

Dragon Heritages
You select a heritage at 1st level from the list of options below. You can only have 1 heritage and you cannot change it later. Despite their numerous classifications, all dragons share a bond with one of the fundamental traditions of magic which powers their abilities. Your choice of heritage determines what your magical tradition is.

Arcane
You use the arcane tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the arcane spell list. You can cast this spell as a arcane innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the arcane spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in arcane spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Divine
You use the divine tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the divine spell list. You can cast this spell as a divine innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the divine spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in divine spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Occult
You use the occult tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the occult spell list. You can cast this spell as a occult innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the occult spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in occult spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Primal
You use the primal tradition for the purposes of any spells and abilities you gain from dragon ancestry feats and archetypes. Choose one cantrip from the primal spell list. You can cast this spell as a primal innate spell at will. A cantrip is heightened to a spell level equal to half your level rounded up. You can change this cantrip to a different one on the primal spell list once per day by meditating and stoking your inner power, this is a 10-minute activity that has the concentration trait. You gain the trained proficiency rank in primal spell attack rolls and spell DC’s. You can choose your key spellcasting ability from amongst your Intelligence, Wisdom, and Charisma scores, once made this decision cannot be changed.

Dragon Ancestry Feats
At 1st level, you gain one ancestry feat, and you gain an additional ancestry feat every 4 levels thereafter (at 5th, 9th, 13th, and 17th levels). As a dragon, you select from among the following ancestry feats.

1st level

Ancestral Longevity
[dragon]
Prerequisites: You are at least 100 years old
Benefit: You have accumulated a vast array of lived knowledge over the years. During your daily preparations, you can reflect upon your life experiences to gain the trained proficiency
rank in one skill of your choice. This proficiency lasts until you prepare again. Since this proficiency is temporary, you can’t use it as a prerequisite for a skill increase or a permanent character option like a feat.

Dragon Breath [two actions]
[dragon, evocation]
Benefit: You channel your power into a gout of energy that manifests as a 30-foot line or 15-foot cone (your choice when you use this ability), dealing 1d4 damage of your draconic element type. Each creature in the area must attempt a basic reflex saving throw against the higher of your class DC or spell DC. You can’t use this ability again for 1d4 rounds.

At 3rd level and every 2 levels thereafter, the damage dealt by your breath increases by 1d4. This ability has the trait associated with the damage type that it deals, as well as the tradition trait matching your heritage.

Dragon Lore
[dragon]
Benefit: You learned much about the ways of dragons, either from other dragons or on your own surviving where others could not. You gain the trained proficiency in survival and a skill based upon your heritage (arcane gains Arcana, divine gain Religion, occult gains Occultism, and primal gain Nature). If you would automatically become trained in one of those skills (from your background or class, for example), you instead become trained in a skill of your choice. You also become trained in Dragon Lore.

Draconic Resilience
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain a +1 circumstance bonus to saves against sleep effects and effects that would make you paralyzed.

Draconic Weaponry
[dragon]
Benefit: Choose one of the following options.
You gain a claw unarmed attack that deals 1d4 slashing damage and has the agile and finesse traits.
You gain a tail unarmed attack that deals 1d6 bludgeoning damage and has the sweep trait.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but you must select a different option each time.

Elemental Affinity
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain resistance to your draconic element type equal to half your level (minimum 1).

Hoard Collector
[dragon]
Benefit: You have a +2 circumstance bonus to Perception checks to notice precious metals. If you aren’t using the Seek action or searching, the GM automatically rolls a secret check for you to notice hidden treasure anyway. This check doesn’t gain the circumstance bonus.

5th level

Ageless Patience
[dragon]
Benefit: You work at a pace born from longevity that enhances your thoroughness. You can voluntarily spend twice as much time as normal on a Perception check or skill check to gain a +2 circumstance bonus to that check. You also don’t treat a natural 1 as worse than usual on these checks; you get a critical failure only if your result is 10 lower than the DC. For example, you could get these benefits if you spent 2 actions to Seek, which normally takes 1 action. You can get these benefits during exploration by taking twice as long exploring as normal, or in downtime by spending twice as much downtime.

The GM might determine a situation doesn’t grant you a benefit if a delay would be directly counterproductive to your success, such as a tense negotiation with an impatient creature.

Draconic Movement
[dragon]
Benefit: Choose one of the following options
You gain a 10-foot swim speed.
You gain a 10-foot burrow speed.
You gain a 10-foot climb speed.
You increase one of the above speeds by 10-feet.
Special: You can take this feat multiple times, but you must select a different option each time.

Draconic Senses
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain imprecise scent with a range of 30 feet.

Dragon Scale Armor
[dragon]
Benefit: Your scales themselves can stop the piercing of arrows and the slashing of swords. When you are unarmored, your scales give you a +4 status bonus to AC with a Dexterity cap of +0.

Energized Font [one action]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Focus pool. Your dragon heritage shares a tradition with at least one of your focus spells.
Frequency: Once per day
Benefit: The magic within you provides increased energy you can use to focus. You regain 1 Focus Point, up to your usual maximum.

Humanoid Shape
[dragon]
Benefit: You can cast humanoid form as an innate spell at will. The spells tradition changes to match your dragon ancestry tradition, and the spells duration is permanent until dismissed.

Natural Weapon Expertise
[dragon]
Benefit: Whenever you score a critical hit with a bite or an unarmed attack you gained from a dragon ancestry feat, you apply the brawling critical specialization effect.

9th level

Arcane Hide
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Draconic Resilience
Benefit: You gain a +1 status bonus to saves against magical effects.

Draconic Pride [free action]
[dragon]
Frequency: Once per day
Trigger: You attempt a check using a skill you are trained in.
Benefit: Your prideful nature pushes you to impress others with your talents. Gain a +4 circumstance bonus to the triggering skill check.

Expert Longevity
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Ancestral Longevity
Benefit: You’ve continued to refine the knowledge and skills you’ve gained through your life. When you choose a skill in which to become trained with Ancestral Longevity, you can also choose a skill in which you are already trained and become an expert in that skill. This lasts until your Ancestral Longevity expires.

When the effects of Ancestral Longevity and Expert Longevity expire, you can retrain one of your skill increases. The skill increase you gain from this retraining must either make you trained in the skill you chose with Ancestral Longevity or make you an expert in the skill you chose with Expert Longevity.

Fury of Dragons [reaction]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Access to the cast a spell activity
Trigger: A creature critically succeeds on a saving throw against a spell you cast with an energy type matching your draconic element
Benefit: Your affinity to your element lets you bend magic. The enemy treats their critical success as a success.

Improved Dragon Breath
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Dragon Breath
Benefit: When you use dragon breath, you can increase the damage dice to d8s and increase the area to 60 feet for a line breath weapon or 30 feet for a cone. If you do so, you can’t use dragon breath again for 1 hour.

Partial Flight
[dragon]
Benefit: You gain a fly speed equal to your land speed or 20 feet, whichever is greater. You can only fly for up to 5 minutes each day, and each round in which you use your fly speed takes up 1 round of this duration. If you are still flying when you run out of minutes, you float to the ground as if under the effect of a feather fall spell.

13th level

Elemental Mastery
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Elemental Affinity
Benefit: Your resistance from elemental affinity increases to 5 + half your level, and you can cast 4th-level heightened resist element as an innate spell once per day. The spell only grants resistance to your draconic element energy type, but you can target up to three creatures. The magical tradition for the spell is the same as your heritage tradition.

Frightful Roar [two actions]
[auditory, dragon, emotion, fear, mental]
Frequency: Once per hour
Benefit: You attempt Intimidate checks to demoralize each enemy within 30 feet.

Inspiring Roar [one action]
[auditory, dragon]
Frequency: Once per hour
Benefit: You let out a triumphant roar that pushes your allies to fight harder. You and all allies in a 30-foot emanation gain a +1 status bonus to checks, saving throws, and armor class until the end of your next turn.

Universal Longevity [one action]
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Expert Longevity
Frequency: Once per day
Benefit: You’ve perfected your ability to keep up with all the skills you’ve learned over your long life, so you’re almost never truly untrained at a skill. You reflect on your life experiences, changing the skills you selected with Ancestral Longevity and Expert Longevity.

17th level

True Flight
[dragon]
Prerequisites: Partial Flight
Benefit: The amount of time you can fly each day increases to 24 hours, in effect granting you permanent flight.

Not to put too fine a point on it, but it's been said by the Designers that the game's math was intentionally made to scale up of they chose to pursue this. E.g. the math keeps scaling linearly after 20, so you don't need the fancy patch pf1e mythic was.

I see it as just being five levels of progression stacked on top, that helps you hit monsters stats in the 25-29 range (Demigod tier) but leaves the proper gods themselves off limits (unstatted but theoretically 30+) the progression would ideally include feats to flavor your character with mythic esque goodies.

Personally? I see a series of archetypes you take at 20, with feats that span character levels 20-25, taking over from your class. I also see a "mythic proficiency" rank that confers +10 (just incrementing again off legendary)

The archetypes could raise your proficiency to legendary if it's master, and to mythic if it's legendary, and to master if it's expert.

By making it a set of special archetypes, we can avoid having to add five levels of progression for every class.

I agree with this idea. At the same time, however, I hope that some of the abilities seen in mythic monsters and players do get carried over to pathfinder 2e. The ability to grant spells like a god, was legitimately one of the coolest parts of pathfinder 1e mythic (and one I would hate not to see in PF 2e), along with many other abilities which were largely buried beneath the broken ones. In other words, I think that ignoring mythic completely is a mistake, they can at least look back and use some of the abilities as inspiration.

One of the biggest traps that Paizo might run into with any potential mythic/ epic system is one which they ran into in PF 1e, not enough future-proofing.

PF 1e mythic had numerous issues, but one of the most overlooked ones was that they simply did not cover nearly all of the existing bases, let along plan for any sort of eventual products. You can see this in the way that they had to create a patch to allow occult classes to interact with the system at all, as well as the numerous holes in the mythic system that caused many classes to slip through the cracks.

When Paizo makes mythic/ epic rules for pathfinder 2e, they will need to not only be a solid system which covers all of the existing basis, but also needs to have enough generalizability that they can be applied to future products that Paizo produces.

As a side note, I am very impressed by your analysis manbearscientist and agree wholeheartedly with your points. I actually hope that someone from Paizo reads your post, because I think that you have laid out most of the issues and options clearly and concisely.

Side note to Paizo, I know that mythic is probably a bit of a sore subject, because of the overall reaction that it received, but I urge you to give it another try. Despite how flawed the system was, there were a lot of very cool things you could do with the system, things which I feel were mostly lost under the torrent of broken options available. The opportunity to try again in a system which is already far more stable and balanced than pathfinder 1e ever was, and to make a mythic/epic system actually work in a game (as every single time a system like this has emerged it has always ended up as being a nearly unplayable mess) is worth giving mythic another shot.

I know that some people might think that a year into the game's release is far too early to start thinking about how ultra high-level gameplay will eventually work, but I believe that looking at such things now is enormously beneficial for the games future health. One really big underlying issue with most very high-level systems is that they were rarely conceived and thought about while the rest of the system was being created. High level gameplay always feels patchwork and an add on because it is a patchwork and an add on. While we cannot retroactively plan out mythic/epic for pathfinder 2e, starting early will ensure that the resulting system is as integrated with the rest of the system as possible, a necessity for this to work.

I had no idea that you had done your own expansion along the same lines as In The Company Of Dragons! I am going to have to check that out.

I have seen your dragon speaker class, and I must say that I really like it! You managed to take and utilize a lot of the abilities displayed by dragons in Pathfinder 2e, along with some very cool new abilities, and turn them into class feats. I can definitely see a dragon class for Pathfinder 2e being built along the same lines. Of course, such a class would require a dragon ancestry and heritage to go along with it.

I want a powerful ancestry book designed to let you play a member of a powerful species in a regular adventuring party, reaching appropriate power levels of full members of the species at the correct character levels and scaling up or down as necessary at other levels based on PC math.

I absolutely and fully agree. One of the benefits that I see in doing this in pathfinder 2e is that with dual classing and free archetype variants in the gamemastery guide, as well as archetype feats in general, the focus can be put primarily on an ancestries natural abilities. For example, giving dragons a whole bunch of spellcasting ability is not strictly necessary, because the player can just multiclass into sorcerer if they really want those spells.

So here is the version of automatic bonus progression that i use in my games.

Level Bonuses Gained
1st —
2nd —
3rd Resistance +1
4th Armor attunement +1, weapon attunement +1
5th Defense +1
6th Mental prowess +2 or physical prowess +2
7th Physical prowess +2 or mental prowess +2
8th Resistance +2, defense +2
9th Armor attunement +2, weapon attunement +2
10th Defense +3, resistance +3
11th Mental prowess +4 or physical prowess +4
12th Physical prowess +4 or mental prowess +4
13th Mental prowess +4/+2, physical prowess +4/+2, resistance +4, defense +4
14th Armor attunement +3, resistance +5, weapon attunement +3
15th Armor attunement +4, mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4, weapon attunement +4
16th Defense +6, physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4
17th Armor attunement +5, defense +8, mental prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, physical prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, weapon attunement +5
18th Defense +10, mental prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4, physical prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4,
19th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
20th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6

POWERFUL CAMPAIGN
1st Resistance +1
2nd Armor attunement +1, weapon attunement +1
3rd Defense +1
4th Mental prowess +2 or physical prowess +2
5th Physical prowess +2 or mental prowess +2
6th Resistance +2, defense +2
7th Armor attunement +2, weapon attunement +2
8th Defense +3, resistance +3
9th Mental prowess +4 or physical prowess +4
10th Physical prowess +4 or mental prowess +4
11th Mental prowess +4/+2, physical prowess +4/+2, resistance +4, defense +4
12th Armor attunement +3, resistance +5, weapon attunement +3
13th Armor attunement +4, mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4, weapon attunement +4
14th Defense +6, physical prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4 or mental prowess +6/+2 or +4/+4
15th Armor attunement +5, defense +8, mental prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, physical prowess +6/+2/+2 or +4/+4/+2, weapon attunement +5
16th Defense +10, mental prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4, physical prowess +6/+4/+2 or +4/+4/+4
17th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
18th Mental prowess +6/+6/+6 or physical prowess +6/+6/+6
19th Inherent bonuses +5/+5/+5
20th Inherent bonuses +5/+5/+5

-Mythic characters are treated as being a number of levels higher than their character level for the purposes of these bonuses equal to ½ their tier (rounded down)
-Weapon attunement now applies to all weapons (including natural weapons and unarmed strikes) that the character has.
-Armor attunement now applies to all armor and shields (including ordinary clothing or its equivalent) that the character has.
-Defense is the combined value of deflection and enhancement natural bonus to armor class. Neither bonus can be more than +5 (This replaces the normal combination of ring of protection and amulet of natural armor, and allows for greater flexibility)
-When wielding a magic weapon or wearing magic armor you do not subtract the bonus of any abilities that it has from your attunement value (A 20th level character who picked up a vorpal sword would still be able to have their +5 to attack and damage from weapon attunement)

Out of the long history of fantastic and evocative 3rd party products created for the first edition of pathfinder, one of my favorites has to be In The Company of Dragons Expanded by Rite Publishing (with several other companies providing their own cool little sections to the book). For those of you who do not know, it was basically a mix of a campaign setting and a well-developed rules set for playing dragons. You could either go the path of the dragon exemplar (the racial class) or you could play as a member of a normal class but with an archetype that would (when combined with certain feats) largely give you the feeling and abilities of playing a dragon while still maintaining much of your class abilities.

While a fantastic product, In The Company Of Dragons also suffered from several issues rooted within the pathfinder 1e system itself. Chief amongst these was that the size penalties for getting larger would eventually outstrip the bonuses that were gain from your growth. Moreover, when playing a dragon with a focus on spellcasting ability, meant that at a certain point your dragon abilities stopped coming into play, as the extreme power of spells in pathfinder 1e warped the game around them.

Pathfinder 2e however, seems like it might actually be able to work with playable dragons. Size no longer matters for most purposes, meaning that changing size will not cause major disruptions in-game balance and rules interactions. The tighter math means that even spellcasters can occasionally get into melee against lower-level foes, which would allow even dragons with a focus on spellcasting to do dragon things. Size increases no longer boosting damage will also make things easier from a conversion and game balance standpoint.

What I am asking is this. Does anyone have any plans for making playable dragons in pathfinder 2e? I know that we are only a year into the game's release, and that Paizo is coming out with products at such a high rate that gambling with creating a product that they might soon invalidate is a real risk, but playable dragons seem like something that Paizo is unlikely to tackle. So I am wondering if anyone has considered attempting this for pathfinder 2e.

Working on a gargantuan dragon now, if anyone has any input I would love to hear it!

By the way, I would like to thank everyone who has taken the time to reply to my thread and has left feedback for me. All of your ideas have helped me to improve the dragon stat blocks and spot potential issues with my designs. If you have any other ideas or opinions on dragons, please, by all means, share them!

Justpassingthrough wrote:

Lucas Yew wrote:

(my old post)

This all sounds super sweet! Do you have any stat blocks for any of these? It's one thing to hear about a lot of the changes, but I would really love to see a stat block for both of these. Getting to see a young version of both of these would be really cool.

They are my lifetime project, along with reclassified outsiders, giants, fey, and the like! ;)

As for my personal phylosophy of making stat blocks with as less math error as possible verisimilitude-wise, this even takes longer even with all those examples in the Bestiary and GMG for reference...

By the way, yeah, why did I forget about the super convenient 5~6 recharge mechanic of 4/5E...?

The 4/5E recharge mechanic is elegant, simple, and in my opinion, is something they should have used in PF 2e, but that conversation is for another thread.

Making stat blocks is actually rather easy in PF 2e once you get down to it. I find that the big reason this is the case is that I can actually trust the numbers when making monsters, something that is unique to this edition of the game. In every previous edition of D&D and Pathfinder, the numbers simply do not function at high levels. Even 4e starts to break down at the highest levels, with well build parties being able to dish out damage in the upper hundreds (if not thousands) per round while having enough attack bonus that they will never actually miss, and defenses so formidable that no existing monster can reliably hit them. These breakdowns require that the GM spend most of their time when creating a monster simply trying to get the numbers to a place where they can challenge the PC's. So far PF 2e does not have that issue. This allows the GM to spend most of their time figuring out the monster's abilities rather than spend hours on end crunching raw numbers and comparing them to the PC's until they finally are satisfied with the results. I can see having to modify numbers for certain groups, a group with three members who have access to heal for instance, will likely require me to increase monster damage somewhat in order to make an encounter actually threatening. Generally, the numbers actually work in this edition, which is a huge relief to me.

Back on topic, I would still love to see at least draft statistics for your dragons. Archives of Nethyse has the full monster creation rules for reference, following the guidelines there should take care of the numbers, allowing you to focus on finding ways to implement all of the abilities that you want your dragons to have.

Justpassingthrough wrote:

HumbleGamer wrote:

In your post says

Quote:

Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage.

Which means not flying creatures.

I believe the intention of the ability is for it to only affect creatures on the ground.

I tried to read it again and I am at loss.

what does mean

"It can do this if it's on the ground Flying within 10 feet of the ground"

If it's on the ground, how can it also be flying within 10 feet of the ground?

...

As for the upgraded dragon, did you try some simulation ( 4 characters vs the dragon ) to compare it to the normal one?

Like running a roll20 fight where you move both dragon ( old stats and then new stats ) and the party, trying to see differences in terms of outcome, damage, fight duration, etc...

The primary thing I could think of ( without have tried this out ) is that without the normal combo

jaws + momentum + db

you are going to deal way less aoe damage, but probably more spike damage on a single target.

Oh right, I almost forgot.
Frightful presence, imo, should be meant to be really a presence

Quote:

Regardless of the result of the saving throw, the creature is temporarily immune to this monster’s Frightful Presence for 1 minute.

Why not making it everlasting?

Every round you will face the dragon's mighty presence, and because so you will have to deal with it.

To answer your question about ground slam, there is supposed to be an "or" in there. So the dragon can use the ability if it is on the ground OR flying within 10 feet of the ground.

About the frightful presence, that is the way that Paizo has decided to do it, and with good reason. Frightened gives a penalty to all checks and DCs (meaning almost everything), and only on a critical success would someone not be at least frightened 1. Forcing everyone within its aura to save every turn means that everyone in the fight will be permanently debuffed, combined with its already high statistics and the tight math of PF 2e, is asking for a TPK. I get where you are coming from thematically, and agree with you that it would be better if it was persistent, but some things just have to slide because of the necessity of having the game be reasonably balanced.

Your analysis of how the dragon will function in combat is likely correct. I do not have Roll 20 so I do not have any easy way to simulate such an encounter, but the possibility of extreme burst damage is a real one, as is the less AOE damage. Unfortunately, I am largely reduced to theory crafting and my experience watching other people play and discuss mid to high-level play in PF 2e. If you are concerned about the burst damage, I suggest removing draconic frenzy as a starting point. If you wish for more AOE damage, than slightly increasing the wyrms breath weapon damage should do the trick.

There are other factors to consider as well. Both of the stat blocks above are simply more powerful than normal PF 2e dragons, if only slightly. This was a consequence of first my attempt to make dragons more interesting (thus adding riders onto there attacks) and second my attempts to change dragons up so they could work well in the three action economy of PF 2e. Also, the hit points of both of the dragons have been increased slightly from there base levels. Overall if you were to put one of these dragons against a normal pf 2e dragon, or put both of them against a party of adventurers, I all but guarantee that my design here will outperform a normal dragon in a combat encounter.

Here comes the next dragon!

Adult Red Dragon (Creature 14)

Common CE Huge Dragon (Fire)

Perception +26; darkvision, scent (precise) 140 feet, smoke vision

Languages Common, Draconic, Dwarven, Orcish

Skills Acrobatics +23, Arcana +25, Athletics +29, Deception +25, Diplomacy +25, Intimidation +27, Stealth +23

Str +7, Dex +3, Con +6, Int +3, Wis +4, Cha +5

Smoke Vision. Smoke doesn’t impair a red dragons vision; it ignores the concealed condition from smoke.

AC 37; Fort +28, Ref +25, Will +26; +1 status to all saves vs. magic

HP 360; Immunities fire; Weaknesses cold 15

Dragon Heat (arcane, aura, evocation, fire); 5 feet, 3d6 fire damage (DC 33 basic Reflex save)

Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 140 feet, DC 33

Smokescreen [reaction] (arcane, fire); Trigger The dragon is the target of a ranged attack. Requirements The dragon is aware of the attack and has a free wing; Effect The dragon flexes a wing and creates a cloud of smoke. The dragon is treated as if they were hidden for the purposes of resolving the triggering attack, so normally the attacker must succeed at a DC 11 flat check to target them. The dragon also gains a +4 circumstance bonus to AC against the triggering attack.

Attack of Opportunity [reaction] Jaws only.

Speed 50 feet, fly 150 feet

Melee [one action] jaws +29 (deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 15 feet), Damage 3d12+15 piercing plus Improved Grab

Melee [one action] claw +29 (agile, deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 10 feet), Damage 3d8+15 slashing plus Improved Knockdown

Melee [one action] tail +29 (deadly 4d6 fire, magical, reach 20 feet), Damage 3d10+15 bludgeoning plus Improved Push 20 feet

Draconic Frenzy [one action] The dragon makes two Strikes in any order.

Swallow Whole [one action] (attack) Large, 3d10+15 bludgeoning plus 4d6 fire, Rupture 25

Breath Weapon [one action/two actions/three actions] (arcane, evocation, fire) The dragon breathes a cloud of fire that deals 4d12/8d12/12d12 fire damage in a 140-foot line/70-foot cone/35 foot emanation (DC 36 basic Reflex save). The area affected by the breath weapon is covered in thick scorching smoke that lasts for 1 round, with the effects of an obscuring mist spell. Any creature that ends its turn inside the area takes 2d12/4d12/6d12 fire damage (DC 36 basic Fortitude save), a creature that fails its save is sickened 2. The damage and shape of the dragons Breath Weapon corresponds with the number of actions the dragon uses. The dragon can’t use Breath Weapon again for a number of rounds equal to the number of actions it used.

Ground Slam [one action] The dragon slams into the ground. It can do this if it’s on the ground or Flying within 15 feet of the ground. Each creature on the ground in the dragons space or within 15 feet must succeed at a DC 36 Reflex save. A creature that fails this save falls prone and takes 4d6 bludgeoning damage. The dragon can then Step.

Draconic Momentum. A dragon can move through the spaces of creatures smaller than it, and can end its movement in a space occupied by smaller creatures. A dragon can move at half speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained, pulling any creatures along with it.

Arcane Innate Spells. DC 35, attack +27; 4th suggestion (at will); Cantrips (6th) detect magic, read magic

In your post says

Quote:

Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage.

Which means not flying creatures.

I believe the intention of the ability is for it to only affect creatures on the ground.

Rocs have the following ability:

Snatch A roc can Fly at half Speed while it has a creature grabbed or restrained in either or both of its talons, carrying that creature along with it.

Could just tweak this as a base.

Good point. Already making changes.

So, no more reset on db after a critical hit ( draconic momentum now seems to give just trample to the dragon )?

And about ground slam, how a non flying creature is supposed to take damage?

3d6 would mean that slipping on oil or just uneven ground will kill everybody. I'd consider just giving the prone position to those who fail.

Ground slam is an ability that normal white dragons have. That ability is in fact one of the few things that I did not change. As written it does only affect targets on the ground. I am not quite sure what your issue with the damage is, some clarification there would be helpful in letting me answer your question.

The change to draconic momentum is largely personal preference. As written I felt like the ability could lead to some very strange issues (see my example about the dragon and the commoner in my first post). There was also another issue that I encountered when adding riders to a dragons attacks, specifically with the grapple rider. As written a creature, no matter how large and strong, is unable to move with a creature or object that it has grappled. My new draconic momentum allows dragons to not only move through the spaces of smaller creatures, but it also allows them to drag along grappled creatures. This allows a dragon to snatch up and fly around with creatures it has grappled, which I find appropriate considering that doing exactly that has been a staple of dragon tactics for most of D&D/Pathfinders history.

I like what you've done with it! Maybe instead of keeping the breath weapon as a 1d4 recharge, maybe make it so it can't use its breath weapon for a number of rounds equal to the number of actions it used. So it could use its 1 action breath every round, or it could use a 3 action big blast and potentially not use it again for the rest of the fight.

This sounds like a great idea. I am working on an older (and larger) dragon stat block now. Some of the changes that I am considering making are as follows.

Your breath weapon change.

Replacing constrict with swallow whole for big dragons.

Potentially adding a crush and/or tail sweep attack. Both will be two action abilities.

Crush will allow the dragon to move and will force any opponent it ends its move on to make a reflex save, on a success they will take half damage and be pushed to the nearest unoccupied space, on a failure they will be knocked prone, grappled and take full damage, on a critical failure they will take double damage and also be pinned.

Tail sweep will probably just allow the dragon to strike with its tail at each creature within its reach, without taking MAP until after all attacks have been made.

The dragon I am working on will also be of a different variety, possibly a red dragon because I consider those to be at base the least evocative and interesting dragon. Mostly because there few special abilities (manipulate flames and redirect fire) will rarely see play. Also because a standard attack of opportunity, while less situational than similar abilities like twisting tail, does not feel as interesting as other dragon reactions. If you have any ideas as to more interesting reaction and/or action abilities, please feel free to share them!

Fellow draconophile writing. I actually support reducing the variety of true dragons into one European and Asian equivalent, respectively (for personal worldview and logistics tracking purposes). Typed in below are a haphazard mixture of some crunch and some lore.

----

Both kinds of the newly classified true dragons would follow a CR 5 Medium Dragonling (new term), CR 11 Large Young, CR 17 Huge Adult, then CR 23 Gargantuan Ancient growth pattern.
They are immune to Acid, Poison, and their major element, plus paralysis and sleep.
Enhancing their breath weapon choice, both types may start breathing their "fuel" in the form of acidic bile starting with Dragonling, Young ones capable of vaporizing it into poisonous gas, then gaining the 3rd and 4th breath choices upon reaching the next two stages.
Their bites will still keep some of their intended elemental damage dice, though.
And finally, although both subspecies will gain immunities to acid and poison while no longer having actual weaknesses, any attempt they make trying to build up resistance/immunity for cold damage and environment will be cut by half (cold immunity treated as 30 -> 15 for this purpose; and cold environment improvement is ignored 1 step).

First, European-esque dragons get to hog the name Wyrm as their subspecies name.
They still tend to be of any evil alignment (exceptions exist), and have Greed for all things valuable as their major flaw (so bribery has a slim chance of buying survival if you are unlucky enough to cross one while underleveled).
Their favored extra languages learnt post-Common include Abyssal, Ignan, Infernal, Protean, and Terran (their love of material richness should make them hate the omnicidal Daemons). This will make swiping with claws do something like sink 10 feet if used at...

This all sounds super sweet! Do you have any stat blocks for any of these? It's one thing to hear about a lot of the changes, but I would really love to see a stat block for both of these. Getting to see a young version of both of these would be really cool.

Hello everyone! This is my first ever post on these forums, and I am excited to get to share my thoughts and ideas with everyone here! With that out of the way, I will now get to my point.

Pathfinder 2e has done a lot of great things with monster design. Many creatures that were simplistic or boring are now far more interesting then they were in Pathfinder 1e. Almost every creature now has a unique ability or two that makes them stand out from one another. The numbers actually working in this edition, and the three action system, have opened up an enormous amount of potential design space for monsters, which the team at Paizo has used to great effect for most of their creations.

All of this just makes the current design behind Pathfinder 2e dragons all the more disappointing.

Compared to many other monsters, I find Pathfinder 2e's dragons to be almost identical to there 5e counterparts, being largely just bags of hit points and damage. Many dragon types do have an interesting reaction ability, but other than that, they don't have much going on with them.

Just compare dragons with the linnorms in both Bestiaries. Linnorms have riders on several of there attacks (poison and grab) and have breath weapons that not only do damage but also have other effects (causing a status condition, leaving a damaging cloud, or sometimes both). Tarn and tor linnorms also have powerful single-action abilities that they can and probably will use, giving them a way to still threaten opponents even if they only have a single action to spare due to control effects or using their breath weapon.

Additionally, there are some notable oddities in the actual design of many dragons. The range of a dragon's frightful presence never changes regardless of its size, level, or age. Some of the existing dragons have attacks that they will likely never use. Any dragon with four different strikes (cloud, gold, magma, and red to name a few) will almost never make a tail strike, there bite is more damaging, and they do not make a tail strike when they frenzy. The only time they will ever make a tail strike is if an opponent happens to be exactly 5 feet out of bite distance, and they only have a single action left. Draconic momentum just feels conceptually off to me, as a dragon could land in the middle of a village, attack some random commoner, and because the strike is almost certainly a crit recharge its breath weapon for some reason. I could go on, but I think I have said enough to make my point.

So I am going to try and make dragons more interesting. Here is what I have as a draft for a more interesting and dangerous dragon, using an adult white dragon as the baseline.

Adult White Dragon (Creature 10)

Common CE Large Dragon (Cold)

Perception +22; darkvision, scent (precise) 100 feet, snow vision

Languages Common, Draconic

Skills Acrobatics +17, Arcana +16, Athletics +23, Intimidation +20, Stealth +18

Str +7, Dex +2, Con +5, Int +2, Wis +4, Cha +2

Snow Vision Snow doesn’t impair a white dragons vision; it ignores concealment from snowfall.

AC 30; Fort +22, Ref +19, Will +17; +1 status to all saves vs. magic

HP 260; Immunities cold; Weaknesses fire 10

Dragon Chill (arcane, aura, cold, evocation); 5 feet, 2d6 cold damage (DC 27 basic Reflex save)

Frightful Presence (aura, emotion, fear, mental) 100 feet, DC 27

Freezing Blood [reaction] (arcane, cold); Trigger An adjacent creature deals piercing or slashing damage to the dragon. Effect The dragon’s blood sprays on the creature, dealing 2d6 cold damage. A creature that takes cold damage in this way is slowed 1 for 1 round.

Speed 30 feet, fly 120 feet, swim 30 feet, ice climb 30 feet

Melee [one action] jaws +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 10 feet), Damage 2d10+15 piercing plus Improved Grab

Melee [one action] claw +23 (agile, deadly 2d6 cold, magical), Damage 2d10+11 slashing plus Improved Knockdown

Melee [one action] tail +23 (deadly 2d6 cold, magical, reach 15 feet), Damage 2d10+15 bludgeoning plus Improved Push 15 feet

Draconic Frenzy [one action] The dragon makes two Strikes in any order.

Constrict [one action] 2d10+5 bludgeoning, DC 29

Breath Weapon [one action/two actions/three actions] The dragon breathes a cloud of frost that deals 5d6/10d6/15d6 cold damage in a 100-foot line/50-foot cone/25 foot emanation (DC 29 basic Reflex save). A creature that fails its saving throw is immobilized by the ice for 1 round. The damage and shape of the dragons Breath Weapon corresponds with the number of actions the dragon uses. The dragon can’t use Breath Weapon again for 1d4 rounds.

Ground Slam [one action] The dragon slams into the ground. It can do this if it’s on the ground or Flying within 10 feet of the ground. Each creature on the ground within 10 feet must succeed at a DC 29 Reflex save or fall prone and take 3d6 bludgeoning damage. The dragon can then Step

Shape Ice [one action] (arcane, transmutation, water) The dragon reshapes a cube of ice or snow it touches, up to 10 feet across. Any creature standing atop the ice must succeed at a DC 27 Reflex save or Acrobatics check. On a failure, the creature falls prone atop the ice; on a critical failure, it falls off the ice entirely and is also prone.

Draconic Momentum A white dragon can move through the spaces of creatures smaller than it. When a white dragon moves, it pulls any creatures it has grabbed along with it.

Ice Climb A white dragon can climb on ice as though it had the listed climb speed. It ignores difficult terrain and greater difficult terrain from ice and snow and doesn’t risk falling when crossing the ice.

Arcane Innate Spells DC 27, attack +19; 2nd obscuring mist (at will); 1st gust of wind (at will)

Any thoughts? Comments? I would love some feedback on this, as well as your own ideas as to how to make dragons more interesting.